"Teen Angst"

[Deffeh]

Is it just me, or is the coining of this phrase and the subsequent connotations of it one of the most negative things our soceity has done to itself?

Ive been thinking about this for quite a while now. Im seventeen, i wont be eighteen for a good 9 months or so. So i am very much a child.

Now, years on the internet has taught me not to be unhappy or indignant about fitting under this category. "Young adults" "Maturing folk", give my age group whatever silently patronising title you wish, i am still a child, and i know i am still a child. I am co-dependant, and i am not mature enough (because i have not had the experience yet, nor am i physically strong enough) to be self sufficient.

Our soceity, on the internet, and in real life, in everything we do has taught us that angst is bad. Angst is merely a feeling, and an expression of a feeling. Just as love, just as hate is. Yet it seems perfectly acceptable to voice these feelings, and to express them. In fact, it is encouraged. So we breed a soceity whereby it is unnatural to vent frustrations with growing up, with the world, and with anything. We are supposed to bottle it.

In particular, "Teen Angst". "Teen Angst" is a phrase invented by a condescending 20 something, i guarentee it. Because we are taught to bottle discontent throughout the year 13-19, when we hit 20 suddenly its released at the same agegroup. In the same way as alcoholism or wifebeating can somehow be mimicked, or racism, we pick it up. We are told basically that we are not allowed to have an opinion until we reach a statistical 7300 days.

I admit freely, that i have angst. That means two things.
Im a modern day radical.
Im open and prone to a barrage of self righteous judgement from arrogant agists.

Angst dealt with properly can be positive. Angst dealt with in the soceity we live in is in such a negative way that we breed stereotypes. And from those stereotypes, we also breed the opposites of these stereotypes, just because.

I will unashamedly say that i know where i rank on this board, and in real life. There are a lot of people in both realms who will always view me as inferior because of my age, because of the stereotypes attached. And so what if i live up to a few stereotypes? People seem to be unable to realise that angst is natural in all age groups. So why is it considered so unacceptable in teenagers?

I started thinking about this actually when i saw a post _W_ made on the DF3 boards. He was arguing that a point argued well, and backed up factually stands on its own, without having the authors credentials being questioned. I have found this to be not the case in life, as people will ultimately prejudge anything you do. English, as a subject is a perfect example of this. The same essay can feasibly receive an A from one marker, and a C from another. Throughout standard grade, and higher, i have been marked down by teachers, and seen good grades go to predictable pupils. And throughout standard grade, higher, and i can say with a degree of hope and satisfaction, when my work has been marked externally, i have come off better off than the faces my teacher sees. I have handed in essays which i have been very proud of, and have been subsequently slated, and described (the teacher in question didnt mention my name, but said "occasionally we receive pieces" with a smug grin on his face) as 'angsty'. I think personally, thats pathetic. If you are teenage, and attempt to go into any degree of character analysis and insight, you are pretentious. Its very easy for a 40 something in a suit to patronise work of teenagers like that, because hes in the position of power.

Relating back to my initial point, i think the smug, self-satisfied attitude with which soceity deals with teenagers is responsible for a lot of harm to individual people, and our culture as a whole. The phrase "teen angst" is said in such a way that it is to be deemed unnatural. We automatically sneer at something natural and unavoidable, because "we can".

Surely there is a better way of dealing with a a natural progression into adulthood than stifling the feelings of those growing up.

Thoughts?

[Monkehpimp]

I might come back and respond later when I'm not half asleep and can be bothered reading it, because as a 17 year old it sounds like it might possibly relate to me in some way.

[W]

A) You're not a child. I totally disagree with the fictious separation of humans into "children" and "adults". Sure, for lawmaking purposes, for some things, it's easiest and most practical to have an age limit. Other than that we're all learners, we're never "done" or "ready for the world". You say you're a dependant at 17. What bull****. You could probably survive on your own from age 12, depending on the circumstances. There is nothing that a 21 year old can do, that a 17 year old cannot do as well, ignoring society and it's law.
B) Anyone who uses the term "teen angst" I seriously pity. I pity them so much I might punch them on the mouth if I ever saw them, to help them out. They're the ones with the deepest denials and mental problems. Angst is a sign you're facing the truth, that you're starting to disbelieve the lies, that you start seeing the real world, as it actually works. Some people never do.

[Freakozoid]

I am 17 and life is too ****ing short to read what you just wrote.

So I will comment on the title of the thread instead.

Teen angst makes me think of Kurt Cobain who was so elite he killed himself.

The new Kurt Cobain is Charlie from Busted. This is the honest to gods truth

[Aryn]

what truth is my sister finding in listening to angry suicide music, cutting her arms, and wearing dog collars?

i'm sure glad i never found that truth when i was her age :\

[Deathjam]

faggot

[Deffeh]

Originally posted by W
A) You're not a child. I totally disagree with the fictious separation of humans into "children" and "adults". Sure, for lawmaking purposes, for some things, it's easiest and most practical to have an age limit. Other than that we're all learners, we're never "done" or "ready for the world". You say you're a dependant at 17. What bull****. You could probably survive on your own from age 12, depending on the circumstances. There is nothing that a 21 year old can do, that a 17 year old cannot do as well, ignoring society and it's law.
B) Anyone who uses the term "teen angst" I seriously pity. I pity them so much I might punch them on the mouth if I ever saw them, to help them out. They're the ones with the deepest denials and mental problems. Angst is a sign you're facing the truth, that you're starting to disbelieve the lies, that you start seeing the real world, as it actually works. Some people never do.

Child is a term more reserved for the fact i am not of yet 18, no?

If neccesary, i could survive. As it is, im sitting at home, on a chair made by someone else, typing on a PC bought by someone else, waiting for someone elses oven to heat up, in a house being paid for by someone else. We are ALL co-dependant, just in different degrees. i COULD live on my own, but i dont.

[Deffeh]

Originally posted by Aryn
what truth is my sister finding in listening to angry suicide music, cutting her arms, and wearing dog collars?

i'm sure glad i never found that truth when i was her age :\

Shes Reacting in a typical rebellious way, a way i have been guilty of (but not in the above sense) because soceity doesnt accept her as human until shes passed a "phase" we call the teen years. Im beginning to think W is right about the seperation of Adult and Child to be honest

[Dante Hicks]

One of the worst and most common fallacies when arguing is dismissing someone's view for something irrelevent.

i) You would say that, you're old/young.
ii) You would say that, you're a man. Etc.

However, at certain stages of your life, hormonal changes (etc.) might alter ones perspective. This of course does not invalidate the opinion, but it might be worth bearing in mind when individually thinking about your own thoughts, feelings, etc.

However, the variance between individuals is such that it's not a guide to how other people react. I'm sure we all do it to a certain extent, but I try not to prejudge someone's opinion in a forum based on what I think I know about their age/gender/economic status. Aside from anything else, they could be lying.

As for angst, I'm seriously worried by people who can grow up and see the blatant injustices which are blatantly evident without being angry or at least depressed. This problem however is hardly helped by the utterly appalling anti-individual, anti-freedom education system which most socieities seem to have developed.

p.s. Obviously what W said about child/adult seperation is accurate.

[Proteus]

I hated being called a young man when I was 17. What's wrong with "child" for crying out loud?

People nowadays just don't know what words mean...

(Note: my annoyance is more due to my being a pedant than to any "teen angst" or other such nonsense term)

[Dante Hicks]

Originally posted by Aryn
what truth is my sister finding in listening to angry suicide music, cutting her arms, and wearing dog collars?

One of the biggest things (for me at least) is finding your niche. Your group. It seems pretty innate to exhibit certain outward behaviour patterns (including dress, etc.) which identify you as x.

Perhaps I am speaking purely for myself, but there is a certain satisfaction to be gained from being around people which are a little like you, where your values will be understood, acknowledged, etc.

Give me the people who wear black, listen to "suicide music", cut themselves and carry ludicrous metal chains to the people who listen to misognystic music, conform to reactionary politics and try cutting up other people.

[Deffeh]

I feel its altogether too easy to pass off any genuine emotion of depression or anger from a teenager as "teen angst". It almost feels at times that i have to wait till im 20 till im allowed to be depressed about anything.

I also feel that even now in this thread some would be more comfortable if they thought i was 20 something, or 30 something, as if that would in some way make my opinion more valid.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally posted by Deffeh
I feel its altogether too easy to pass off any genuine emotion of depression or anger from a teenager as "teen angst". It almost feels at times that i have to wait till im 20 till im allowed to be depressed about anything.

Well, there is an issue that you tend to think less as you get older. "Teens" tend to have time to think about things (and thus get depressed), whereas as life goes on your time disappears...

[Proteus]

Originally posted by Deffeh
I feel its altogether too easy to pass off any genuine emotion of depression or anger from a teenager as "teen angst". It almost feels at times that i have to wait till im 20 till im allowed to be depressed about anything.

I had severe bi-polar manic depression when I was about 15, and the damn stupid NHS sent me to a child psychyatrist, who said I had school phobia. I then told him he was stupid and left. This went on for several months and several child psychiatrists before I went to a real psychiatrist who actually diagnosed me, rather than say "he's a teenager, therefore he has teenitis". But I had to go private before this actually happened. Stupid country.

[Deffeh]

Originally posted by Proteus
Stupid country.

Stupid culture.

Originally posted by Dante Hicks
Well, there is an issue that you tend to think less as you get older. "Teens" tend to have time to think about things (and thus get depressed), whereas as life goes on your time disappears...

Not as easy as that i dont think. I tend to find myself "more depressed" as such when i am faced with social or work situations when i feel an injustice is occuring. Its immediate, rather than being an afterthought. Not sure how it is for everyone else, but..

[Dante Hicks]

Originally posted by Deffeh
Its immediate, rather than being an afterthought. Not sure how it is for everyone else, but..

Well, that might be that you get used to be **** on as part ofwork/life that you stop noticing it's a bad thing...

I used to get angry about things which were wrong, now I don't get angry about anything. I just know certain things are wrong. It's a mental appreciation rather than emotional.

Of course, I'm only 22. Undoubtedly when I'm 30 I'll be calling for tax cuts and complaining how those beastly wogs have spoiled my part of Bedfordshire.

[Aryn]

i'm gonna be the pedant here and say that 'itis' means 'inflammation of'

so i think you mean 'teenosis' as 'osis' means 'condition, usually abnormal'

:P


though i agree with you deffeh. no one takes depression from teens seriously. adults think it's part of the 'phase' of growing up. you have to admit though that a lot of teens fall into the anst/depression stage because it seems like the cool thing to do. from their viewpoint they don't see it. but from mine... my sister was perfectly happy til she met a few people.. hard to explain i guess.

[Proteus]

Originally posted by Aryn
i'm gonna be the pedant here and say that 'itis' means 'inflammation of'

so i think you mean 'teenosis' as 'osis' means 'condition, usually abnormal'

:P

I wasn't claiming it was an actual disorder...

[Aryn]

i didn't claim you did either
i was just being pedantic about the word.

being in med. terminology and all :\

[Dante Hicks]

Originally posted by Aryn
my sister was perfectly happy til she met a few people.. hard to explain i guess.

Maybe they got her thinking about a few things? Obviously I've no idea in this specific case (not knowing her) but I think it's wrong to automatically assume that it's just copying or bandwagon hopping.

[Aryn]

well of course they did.
they wore dog collars and didn't care what other people thought.
she thought 'hey.. that's cool.. i don't care what other people think either!'

i just don't see a point in the rebellious act. i'm on the other side of the fence though. i'm sure i felt somewhat the same.. but i just didn't see the need to stick labels on myself that said 'look at me! i'm a depressed angsty teen!' i tried to look at it from an adult's point of view. i wanted a job. i applied along with some 'angsty' teens.. i got the job.. they didn't. my sister doesn't understand how she can't get a job. i say 'try wearing 'nice' cloths.. take off your collar.. and brush your hair'.

it's sad.. but it's true :\

(actually i think i'm going off on a tangent.. but it sort of ties into the stereotypical 'angsty teen' that adults think all teens are like.)

[Proteus]

Originally posted by Aryn
i didn't claim you did either
i was just being pedantic about the word.

being in med. terminology and all :\

-itis
suff.
1. Inflammation or disease of: laryngitis.
2. Excessive preoccupation with, indulgence in, reliance on, or possession of the qualities of: televisionitis.

Teenitis

Excessive possession of the qualities of a teenager.

Please leave my lovely word alone.

[Aryn]

ok now YOU'RE the pedant :P

[Dante Hicks]

Originally posted by Aryn
my sister doesn't understand how she can't get a job. i say 'try wearing 'nice' cloths.. take off your collar.. and brush your hair'.

Fortunately, I can wear dodgy clothes, have long unwashed hear (plus a stupid chain!) and still go to work with no problems.

I love the non-profit sector...

[Deffeh]

Originally posted by Aryn
though i agree with you deffeh. no one takes depression from teens seriously. adults think it's part of the 'phase' of growing up. you have to admit though that a lot of teens fall into the anst/depression stage because it seems like the cool thing to do. from their viewpoint they don't see it. but from mine... my sister was perfectly happy til she met a few people.. hard to explain i guess.

No ****. Depression when coupled with mild attractiveness is an aphrodisiac it seems. Take a look at vampy for instance. She may not be teenage any longer, (actually i dont know), but the whole "i self harm, look at me" seems to turn on a lot of her followers. I have gotten mixed up (not romantically) with a lot of girls like her in real life too.

As to your sister, she will come round. all i can say though, is experience is the only things that will teach most people. Im learning every day, and forming and changing opinions every day. She will do the same.

[Embroglio]

I think something that's also a problem for people our age (I'm 16) is that people often assume too much about your actions, or your behaviour. I didn't go to school for a week and it was presumed that I was unhappy there, or that something was horridly wrong despite my denial of both. I'm constantly being asked if I'm happy, just out of the blue, but never by people my own age, always people who are in their 20's and 30's. I believe as everyone goes through teen years differently, that it's hard to understand what it is for others, which is why people should assume as little as possible as peoples assumptions (as I've seen) can often turn a perfectly fine situation into a nightmare.

[queball]

Where do you work, Dante?

[Rhumsaa]

ah who gives a ****...

[Dante Hicks]

Originally posted by queball
Where do you work, Dante?

Broomleigh CST (the girl in the top left sits next to me).

Really awful prole work, but what you gonna do?

[Aryn]

ah.. i see that too emb :P
whenever i can get my sister to visit my grandparents (she hates it.. but i think one day she'll thank me for forceing her to visit them :P)... my nana always asks if she's depressed or something. cause she wears certain clothes..and dyes her hair. i always say 'nah.. she's just stupid' to get on my sister's nerves.. but anyways :P i know what you mean. i don't ask my sister if anything's wrong cause she wouldn't tell me anyway. and it's annoying.

[Nodrog]

Age is meaningless in a lot of contexts. Its an ok way of comparing someone with their self at a different time ("Im more mature at 25 than I was at 15"), but its all but useless for comparing 2 different people ("hay hes 30 but she is only 17. He must know more!").

Also, people find it a lot easier to assume that a person pointing out the flaws in their system/argument is simply "full of angst", "raging against the machine" or "hormonal" rather than admit that there might actually be a problem. Theres very little the 'average person' dislikes (or feels threatened by, which is essentially the same thing here) more than someone who refuses to participate, and this is reflected in a vast amount of situations from childhood to adulthood. Coupled with the fear/insecurity that a lot of people seem to have of intelligence shown by another person, you have a prime recipe for the whole "lol teen angst" phenonenon. It makes sense really: if im lying to myself about something, it makes the self-deception a lot easier to achieve if those around me similarly pretend to believe the lie. Someone who openly refuses to accept it threatens to force me to face up to the fact that I'm 'living a lie', and thus becomes a threat to the whole social order, normally resulting in defensive action being taken by ostracising/ridiculing them until they conform.

You can see the same kind of thing at almost any time where someone actively refuses to participate in an activity/belief that someone else wants to believe is 'enjoyable', be it not drinking alcohol/going clubbing ("hes boring and no fun"), not taking drugs ("no sense of adventure"), thinking something popular sucks ("only hating it because its popular"), reading books other than contemporary fiction ("psuedo-intellectual"), dressing "alternatively" ("just looking for attention"), or countless other situations where an arbitrary social convention is rejected, triggering dumb defence mechanisms from the insecure who cannot accept that something that is so important to their life can be disliked (which normally consists of reducing the situation to some kind of bizarro false dichotomy where everyone has to pick one of the 2 reactionary opposites of a) conforming or b) actively rebelling, rather than actually independantly forming their own opinion).

None of this changes the fact that anti-conformance is the new conformance, and that 80% of the people embracing 'alternative' lifestyles are reactionary faggots though. You should listen to Avril Lavigne like me and Dante

[Nodrog]

Originally posted by Dante Hicks
Broomleigh CST (the girl in the top left sits next to me).

Really awful prole work, but what you gonna do?

Raze it all to the ground, and on the ruins build your temple.

[Sardaukar]

Originally posted by Deffeh
Child is a term more reserved for the fact i am not of yet 18, no?

If neccesary, i could survive. As it is, im sitting at home, on a chair made by someone else, typing on a PC bought by someone else, waiting for someone elses oven to heat up, in a house being paid for by someone else. We are ALL co-dependant, just in different degrees. i COULD live on my own, but i dont.

Teen angst - reads: i rely on my parents to pay for me to live and dont like the restrictions and cant be arsed to get a job.




speaking from experience? damn right

[Snurx]

The biggest problem, whit the whole "teen" depression thing, is that the "old ones" don't understand what we are dealing whit.
We are constantly bombarded whit informantion, whit commercials, the evils of the world, capitalist propaganda, communist propaganda, news, cartoons, bubblegums, popular culture as a whole. They were not, but they can't understand the difference. The mind does work differently the older you get, so those things just fall off most of them. They can't understand the reasons why "we" are so much more depressed then they were, beacause the cultural change is so great, and the gap between the generations are miles wide.

"Teen" depression should be given immideate attention, as it spans so much bad things when its handeled as it is today. Its the biggest reason for youth crime, if i am correct, but the "old ones" can't understand that, and instead of meeting "us" on equal grounds, they either showe it under the carpet or deals whit it horribly. And that's very scary.

[LHC]

Things never change but old faggots like to think they are better so they blame the problems of the youth today on the fall of society.

[roadrunner_0]

Originally posted by Aryn
what truth is my sister finding in listening to angry suicide music, cutting her arms, and wearing dog collars?

i'm sure glad i never found that truth when i was her age :\

it is a truth that some ppl cannot live without
i dont do cutting personally, but i know ppl who do, and i know ppl who self harm in other ways, including binge drinking/starting fights etc, for some ppl, they just need an outlet, and different ppl find that outlet in different ways

notice however, i am not saying it is right, just that it is.

[Snurx]

Originally posted by LHC
Things never change but old faggots like to think they are better so they blame the problems of the youth today on the fall of society.

No, no! They do actually change very much, according to my mother.. When she grew up, they did not have the choice between 50 different tv stations, 100 different radio stations, 1000 different brands and 10000 different trends. She has told me that she would not like to be a youth today, as "we" have so much more pressure on us. She grew up in the start of "this" period, about 30-35 years ago, but it has just become more and more.
Of course, it makes a few great subcultures, resistance movements, (hiphop, hippies, punk, etc) but it does more harm then good.

[LHC]

Okay I worded it wrong.

There were depressed teenagers 1000, 200, 50, 30, 15, 5 etc years ago. That hasn't changed and never will.

But old gob****es like to blame depressed teenagers on the 'changing for the worse' world, and deny all knowledge of depressed people from the past.

[Nodrog]

Originally posted by LHC
There were depressed teenagers 1000, 200, 50, 30, 15, 5 etc years ago. That hasn't changed and never will.

Do you have evidence of this? Obviously youre likely to have depressed people at any period of time, but are you claiming that "teenage disillusionment/social alienation" on the current scale is a universal phenomenon rather than being one peculiar to modern day western society?

[LHC]

I cannot say so for 1000 years ago etc, but I expect it is the case, as suicides and whatnot have existed for many centuries.

It has definitely existed within the last thirty years ago though. Go ask your parents if you don't believe me.

[Nodrog]

Originally posted by LHC
I cannot say so for 1000 years ago etc, but I expect it is the case, as suicides and whatnot have existed for many centuries.

It has definitely existed within the last thirty years ago though. Go ask your parents if you don't believe me.

Theres not really that much difference between 30 years ago and today, relatively speaking. If youre claiming that teenage disillusionment is normal, youre going to have to show that it exists in a society thats significantly different from the one today, such as a non-western one (or even a western one pre-WW2). Its far too easy to pass off cultural phenomenon as being universal.

[LHC]

Perhaps it's just that many idiots that think they are depressed now actually aren't and are just stupid.

In the past they didn't have musicians telling them to be depressed, and now they do, so they pretend to be depressed.

If this is the case then yes, modern culture is to blame. Not for depression but for perceived depression.

I still think that the number of [actual] depressed people has changed very little.

[queball]

Originally posted by LHC
I cannot say so for 1000 years ago etc, but I expect it is the case, as suicides and whatnot have existed for many centuries.

It has definitely existed within the last thirty years ago though. Go ask your parents if you don't believe me.

They say it's worse now than 30 years ago. HTH.

[Add]

Originally posted by LHC
Perhaps it's just that many idiots that think they are depressed now actually aren't and are just stupid.

In the past they didn't have musicians telling them to be depressed, and now they do, so they pretend to be depressed.

If this is the case then yes, modern culture is to blame. Not for depression but for perceived depression.

I still think that the number of [actual] depressed people has changed very little.

i listen to so called depressed music and it makes me feel good. it's when i listen to the pop-type-love songs from the likes of savage garden i start to feel like **** (although not so much anymore, their songs are actually quite good). go figure.

[LHC]

I did say the words 'idiots' and 'stupid' though. I entirely agree that other forms of music are much worse for making me want to die.

[LHC]

Originally posted by queball
They say it's worse now than 30 years ago. HTH.

Both of my parents agree that the modern day is socially better and that the only reason anybody would say otherwise is that they didn't hear about the same problems 30 years ago, because they didn't have (for example) 24 hour news channels.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally posted by LHC
Both of my parents agree that the modern day is socially better and that the only reason anybody would say otherwise is that they didn't hear about the same problems 30 years ago, because they didn't have (for example) 24 hour news channels.

Suicide or feelings of alienation are not (generally) responses to larger problems in the world.

Standards of living (economically) are undoubtedly better now than they were 30 years ago (in western nations, not necessarily in some parts) but this doesn't necessarily correspond to less alienation.

I would tentatively suggest that suicide/alienation corresponds (at least partially) to feelings of social solidarity. Suicides are less during war time for instance, yet standards of living are probably lower. Similarly, the white suicide rate in the United States is higher than the black suicide rate - yet I doubt many would claim whites have it worse than blacks. I seem to remember Durkheim suggesting that in Europe suicide rates amongst Protestants were higher than Catholics (yet Protestants were often more wealthy).

In all of these cases one could suggest that it is the social solidarity (or identification, whatever) which is the key. On a very dodgy level for instance, you could say that Catholics/blacks tend to rely more on social networks than others.

Over the last 50 years or so living standards have sky-rocketed in most of western Europe (and the US). However, in some cases higher rates of inequality (especially in the last twenty years) have taken their toll on civic trust, etc.

Of course, none of this is simple. Suicide is still a personal act and we can't negate the impact that counselling programs, etc have.

[queball]

Originally posted by Dante Hicks

I would tentatively suggest that suicide/alienation corresponds (at least partially) to feelings of social solidarity.

http://society.guardian.co.uk/mental...794796,00.html

[Deepflow]

Originally posted by Freakozoid
The new Kurt Cobain is Charlie from Busted. This is the honest to gods truth

hmm

i was saying that a while ago on the boards... but i stole it from an article in "the guide"

did you? or is it EVERYWHERE now?

[warlady]

Here's something to think about; nowadays girls who have a child of their own at, say, 16 have very little support and less approval from anyone. Go back a couple of hundred years and girls were married off at 14 or 15.

We live longer, so we take longer to grow up. Teenage years are now years in which we can afford to "go through stages", as it is sometimes so condescendingly called. Two hundred years ago, there simply wasn't enough years in a person's life to do that; they had to work from such a young age.