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13 May 2003, 17:44
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#1
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Macintosh Defender
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: United States of America
Posts: 243
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Rebellion: Texas Democrats in US Flee Capital, Republicans convene emergency session
In a massive party-wide decision, the democrats in Texas openly rebelled against an attempt by State Republicans to pass a new districting plan that would ensure their majority for the better half of the century.
Republicans control enough of the government to get the new districting plan passed, overriding court decisions to only redistrict the state every 10 years. They do not, however, hold the 2/3's necessary to legally hold a session of the state congress. Viewing the power-grab by the Republicans as unconstitutional, and with support from the courts, the Democrats fled the capital and crossed state lines into Oklahoma. The Texas Police Force, solidly with the Republicans, captured 3 Democrats at Austin's Airport in a standoff which shutdown a terminal and several were reportedly captured trying to cross state boundaries in a car chase with police. 53 Democrats are holed up in Oklahoma, with the majority just across the state line. Forcing captured Democrats to sit in session, the Republicans are just 3 away on attainting the 100 people they need in order to legally pass the bill. Republicans are considering allowing house to house searches in Democratic counties in order to locate thouse harboring rebelling senators.
Democrats rebel, convene own Congress in Oklahoma
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13 May 2003, 17:48
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#2
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share the <3
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Location: Location:
Posts: 2,709
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god i love america \O/
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13 May 2003, 17:52
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#3
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Too close for comfort
Posts: 246
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hehe, having the police hunt down congressmen and forcing them to vote can only be legal in Texas 
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13 May 2003, 18:06
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#4
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Gone
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 14,656
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Quite disturbing, really.
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13 May 2003, 18:17
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#5
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Lord Denning
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: City of London
Posts: 2,548
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Quote:
Originally posted by Toop
hehe, having the police hunt down congressmen and forcing them to vote can only be legal in Texas
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How in the name of all that is good and holy can it be legal anywhere?
Surely people have the right to liberty?
I also seem to recall from a Tom Clancy book that inter-state travel is a Constitutional right.
__________________
Please bear in mind when reading the above post that I am always right.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
He was crowned in York Cathedral as 'Expert in the West' by Pope Urban III in 1186.
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13 May 2003, 18:20
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#6
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Gone
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 14,656
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If the measure hasn't been passed yet, and requires another three votes, then what are The Democrats worried about? Surely they hould just vote against it?
Or am I missing something?
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13 May 2003, 18:22
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#7
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Lord Denning
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: City of London
Posts: 2,548
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The Republicans have the majority needed to win any vote, but not the 2/3 needed to hold that vote in the first place. 
__________________
Please bear in mind when reading the above post that I am always right.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
He was crowned in York Cathedral as 'Expert in the West' by Pope Urban III in 1186.
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13 May 2003, 18:23
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#8
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Gone
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 14,656
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Quote:
Originally posted by Proteus
The Republicans have the majority needed to win any vote, but not the 2/3 needed to hold that vote in the first place.
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Ah.
Did the article explain that? If it did, I didn't see it.
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13 May 2003, 18:23
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#9
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cynic
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Bishop Auckland Co. Durham
Posts: 8,809
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that really is absolutly insane :/
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lazy
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13 May 2003, 18:26
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#10
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Macintosh Defender
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: United States of America
Posts: 243
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88 out of the 150 are Republicans
62 out of the 150 are Democrats
It takes 51 for the Quorom to pass.
It takes 100 for there to even be a Quorom
53 Democrats are safely out of the state.
7 were captured.
2 are still somewhere in the state.
7 + 88 = 95 (Not enough to legally sit)
95 + 2 = 97 (Not enough to legally sit)
If the Quorom sits, then the Congress which is currently 17 Democrats and 15 Republics, will shift to 20 Republics and 12 Democrats. The bill is going against a Court Order that says redistricting will be done at 2010. The Republicans are trying to secure their majority for the next 50 years by pushing this plan through while they are the majority.
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13 May 2003, 18:26
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#11
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Lord Denning
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: City of London
Posts: 2,548
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Quote:
Originally posted by Marilyn Manson
Ah.
Did the article explain that? If it did, I didn't see it.
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Quote:
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Under House rules, the reapportionment plan would have to be brought to a vote by Thursday in order to pass this session. Republicans hold 88 seats in the 150-member House, 12 short of the two-thirds needed for a quorum.
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__________________
Please bear in mind when reading the above post that I am always right.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
He was crowned in York Cathedral as 'Expert in the West' by Pope Urban III in 1186.
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13 May 2003, 18:30
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#12
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King of The Fat Boys
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 3,332
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Wow, reminds me of The Great Escape.
Go Steve McQueen!
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13 May 2003, 18:30
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#13
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cynic
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Bishop Auckland Co. Durham
Posts: 8,809
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how the hell can the republicans get away with doing that? surely they cannot go against their own courts? thats like, changing the rules as you go along to suit you :/
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lazy
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13 May 2003, 18:49
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#14
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WHY DID YOU PUSH GRANDMA
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 400
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I don't see what their problem is. A one-party system makes things easier for everyone - it avoids all the arguments that delay progress in a democratic political system.
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13 May 2003, 18:56
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#15
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 159
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Madness. It reminds me of the beginnings of the third Reich. How can anybody vote for the republicans? These guys have a majority? Texas must be a VERY strange place with VERY strange ppl.
__________________
The world never was good, but now it is getting worse.
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13 May 2003, 18:58
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#16
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Lord Denning
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: City of London
Posts: 2,548
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anaximander
Texas must be a VERY strange place with VERY strange ppl.
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Surely not!
__________________
Please bear in mind when reading the above post that I am always right.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
He was crowned in York Cathedral as 'Expert in the West' by Pope Urban III in 1186.
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13 May 2003, 20:09
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#17
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Macintosh Defender
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: United States of America
Posts: 243
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Courts rule on the constiutionality of things passed by the congress. The courts already put in a conseus plan that the Democrats are trying to keep in place til 2010. However, the Republicans are attempting to overrule it in order to bolster a majority. Its an interesting case on who overrides who.
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13 May 2003, 20:09
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#18
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Snake of the Sand
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Florida, USA
Posts: 1,500
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this has to be the funniest thing ever...saddest thing ever as well, but definately the funniest..
And yes, texas is an odd fking state.
__________________
I poke badgers with spoons.
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13 May 2003, 21:02
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#19
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Bitch
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 3,848
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Just when I was starting to think our own political system was getting as bad as the American one something turns up to prove me wrong
__________________
ACHTUNG!!!
Das machine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy
schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und corkenpoppen mit
spitzensparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken by das dummkopfen. Das
rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets. Relaxen und vatch
das blinkenlights!!!
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13 May 2003, 21:11
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#20
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Ruler
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 190
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This will make a great movie someday, hope it gets a happy ending.
__________________
No, I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.
- George Bush Sr
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13 May 2003, 21:14
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#21
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Mr. Blobby
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Belgium
Posts: 8,271
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I would like to see this kind of stuff in Dutch politics, fs!
I can just imagine... J.P. Balkenende racing from the police, led by Gerrit Zalm
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13 May 2003, 21:26
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#22
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Too close for comfort
Posts: 246
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Quote:
Originally posted by Leshy
I would like to see this kind of stuff in Dutch politics, fs!
I can just imagine... J.P. Balkenende racing from the police, led by Gerrit Zalm
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hehe, JP would try stuff like this if he got the chance .
Fortunately we don't have a district system so he has to make up another way of cheating 
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13 May 2003, 21:46
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#23
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Aardvark is a funny word
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: I'm No Nino Rota
Posts: 5,923
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so the police are being used to illegally force congressmen to vote? and this is being allowed to happen?
__________________
Efficiency, efficiency they say
Get to know the date and tell the time of day
As the crowds begin complaining
How the Beaujolais is raining
Down on darkened meetings on the Champs Élysées
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13 May 2003, 22:01
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#24
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Ancient
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: The Police states of America
Posts: 464
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anaximander
Madness. It reminds me of the beginnings of the third Reich. How can anybody vote for the republicans? These guys have a majority? Texas must be a VERY strange place with VERY strange ppl.
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Atleast u don't live in a state where texas borders u from more than one side. EVUL TEXANS
__________________
"Melting the steel, close to the sun
Dreaming away from this nightmare
A digital world where everyone feeds on lies
Falling from grace, the human race
Religion can never unite us
Only a few will stay on the barricades"
-Masterplan
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13 May 2003, 22:03
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#25
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Too close for comfort
Posts: 246
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I always try to keep an ocean between Texas and me
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13 May 2003, 22:17
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#26
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Miles Teg
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Dom City
Posts: 5,192
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Genuine WTF???? reply
__________________
Audentes Fortuna Iuvat
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13 May 2003, 22:17
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#27
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King of The Fat Boys
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 3,332
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I just had an image of Clare Short pegging it down the motorway in a sports car, being chased by a cop car; Tony Blair hanging out the window shouting at her with Gordon Brown at the wheel.
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13 May 2003, 23:04
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#28
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Macintosh Defender
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: United States of America
Posts: 243
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Quote:
Originally posted by Phang
so the police are being used to illegally force congressmen to vote? and this is being allowed to happen?
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The State Police are controlled by the government which is currently a Republican majority. They are being forced to return to Austin in order to sit in session, vote or abstain. The vote cannot be held unless there are a 100 out of 150 sitting in session.
Also I would like to point out the American President is currently a Texas Republican. So when the Democrats finish assembling their own police force and try to take back the capital, THEN he will intervene. Oooh I can just see the Governor's Mansion barricaded with trench warfare around the capitol building and Austin looking like Beirut in the 1980's.
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14 May 2003, 00:09
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#29
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Child Eating Zombie Clown
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 1,450
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Quote:
Originally posted by cnaw
Atleast u don't live in a state where texas borders u from more than one side. EVUL TEXANS
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Texas borders us on the east. Unless you're counting that little outstretch of land up north that borders oklahoma, and I'm not, because it's all of a mile long.
__________________
Mirai - An Astral Being From Outer Space
Die You Bitch Minister of Insanity - "Timete Nostrum Piscem Furoris"
My fellow Americans, I'm pleased to tell you today that I've signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever, we begin bombing in 5 minutes - President Ronald Reagan, in a radio check where he did not realize the microphone was on and the station broadcasting
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14 May 2003, 00:10
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#30
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Klaatu barada nikto
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota
Posts: 3,237
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Gerrymandering has been a feature of American politics for nearly 200 years. The Democrats do it to the Republicans; the Republicans do it to the Democrats. It's only news when the balance of power shifts (as it has in Texas).
Not sure where the 50 years number is coming from. The US Constitution essentially requires redistricting after every Census (every 10 years).
__________________
The Ottawa Citizen and Southam News wish to apologize for our apology to Mark Steyn, published Oct. 22. In correcting the incorrect statements about Mr. Steyn published Oct. 15, we incorrectly published the incorrect correction. We accept and regret that our original regrets were unacceptable and we apologize to Mr. Steyn for any distress caused by our previous apology.
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14 May 2003, 01:23
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#31
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Child Eating Zombie Clown
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 1,450
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tactitus
Not sure where the 50 years number is coming from. The US Constitution essentially requires redistricting after every Census (every 10 years).
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Neither am I. In fact, I think you just made up 50 for your own wicked desires, because, in fact, the article says A) there was a redistricting 2 years ago after the census, and B) that the republicans are trying to do another one now, out of sync.
__________________
Mirai - An Astral Being From Outer Space
Die You Bitch Minister of Insanity - "Timete Nostrum Piscem Furoris"
My fellow Americans, I'm pleased to tell you today that I've signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever, we begin bombing in 5 minutes - President Ronald Reagan, in a radio check where he did not realize the microphone was on and the station broadcasting
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14 May 2003, 02:15
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#32
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Klaatu barada nikto
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota
Posts: 3,237
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mirai
Neither am I. In fact, I think you just made up 50 for your own wicked desires, because, in fact, the article says A) there was a redistricting 2 years ago after the census, and B) that the republicans are trying to do another one now, out of sync.
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No, I didn't make it up. It was mentioned in the first post in this thread and repeated in a couple of followups. Now where they got it I have no idea.
__________________
The Ottawa Citizen and Southam News wish to apologize for our apology to Mark Steyn, published Oct. 22. In correcting the incorrect statements about Mr. Steyn published Oct. 15, we incorrectly published the incorrect correction. We accept and regret that our original regrets were unacceptable and we apologize to Mr. Steyn for any distress caused by our previous apology.
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14 May 2003, 03:09
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#33
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Macintosh Defender
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: United States of America
Posts: 243
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tactitus
No, I didn't make it up. It was mentioned in the first post in this thread and repeated in a couple of followups. Now where they got it I have no idea.
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Quote:
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Republicans control enough of the government to get the new districting plan passed, overriding court decisions to only redistrict the state every 10 years.
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No it wasn't. I meantioned 2010, and repeated that several times. Now if you read the article the last conseus was done in 2000-2001. So now, what does 2010-2000 equal?
edit: Perhaps you meant the effect of the influence which was stated as half of a century. Seeing as the congressional membership combined with House/senate membership would result in a massive republican majority, this is a realistic estimate. The Democrats afterall held power for some 140 years (since the Civil War).
Last edited by Makain; 14 May 2003 at 03:14.
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14 May 2003, 03:29
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#34
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Klaatu barada nikto
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota
Posts: 3,237
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Re: Rebellion: Texas Democrats in US Flee Capital, Republicans convene emergency session
Quote:
Originally posted by Makain
In a massive party-wide decision, the democrats in Texas openly rebelled against an attempt by State Republicans to pass a new districting plan that would ensure their majority for the better half of the century.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Makain
The Republicans are trying to secure their majority for the next 50 years by pushing this plan through while they are the majority.
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"Better half of the century" and "next 50 years" doesn't look like 10 years to me; but whatever.
Quote:
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Perhaps you meant the effect of the influence which was stated as half of a century.
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As far as I can see, you were the only one throwing around the 50 year number. As to what you may have meant, I have no idea.
Quote:
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Seeing as the congressional membership combined with House/senate membership would result in a massive republican majority, this is a realistic estimate. The Democrats afterall held power for some 140 years (since the Civil War).
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Political power ebbs and flows at different rates at different times. I don't think Reconstruction is a good political model moving forward.
__________________
The Ottawa Citizen and Southam News wish to apologize for our apology to Mark Steyn, published Oct. 22. In correcting the incorrect statements about Mr. Steyn published Oct. 15, we incorrectly published the incorrect correction. We accept and regret that our original regrets were unacceptable and we apologize to Mr. Steyn for any distress caused by our previous apology.
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14 May 2003, 03:40
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#35
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Macintosh Defender
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: United States of America
Posts: 243
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Re: Re: Rebellion: Texas Democrats in US Flee Capital, Republicans convene emergency session
Quote:
Originally posted by Tactitus
"Better half of the century" and "next 50 years" doesn't look like 10 years to me; but whatever.
As far as I can see, you were the only one throwing around the 50 year number. As to what you may have meant, I have no idea.
Political power ebbs and flows at different rates at different times. I don't think Reconstruction is a good political model moving forward.
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I believe we were talking about the initial thread in the post which I did post, so thank you for bringing that fact to my attention, as I might have forgotten that stuff I post in there came from *gasp* me.
I didn't say 140 years, I said 50 years, which would be a much shorter cycle from reconstruction. And I believe I stated that 10 years for the conseus was indeed in my original post so why are you saying that i still said 50 years for that. Or are you now making your own model for power shifts at 10 years based on no other information then thats when the conseus happens. Otherwise I have to assume your being a dumbass on purpose becuase I think I CLEARLY stated that 10 years was how the conseus shifts in my original thread, and then put the quote up there for you to see.
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14 May 2003, 05:56
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#36
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Klaatu barada nikto
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota
Posts: 3,237
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Re: Re: Re: Rebellion: Texas Democrats in US Flee Capital, Republicans convene emergency session
Quote:
Originally posted by Makain
I believe we were talking about the initial thread in the post which I did post, so thank you for bringing that fact to my attention, as I might have forgotten that stuff I post in there came from *gasp* me.
I didn't say 140 years, I said 50 years, which would be a much shorter cycle from reconstruction.
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Yes; yes it would. But 75 years would also be shorter; as would 25; or even 5. So why 50?
Quote:
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And I believe I stated that 10 years for the conseus was indeed in my original post so why are you saying that i still said 50 years for that.
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I didn't say you said 50 years for the census. You said 50 years was how long the Republicans would "secure their majority." However, you neglected to explain how you had arrived at the number.
Quote:
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Or are you now making your own model for power shifts at 10 years based on no other information then thats when the conseus happens.
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It at least has some basis in reality. Perhaps your model has some basis in reality too? But you haven't really explained your model, have you? You've just tossed out a number.
Quote:
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Otherwise I have to assume your being a dumbass on purpose becuase I think I CLEARLY stated that 10 years was how the conseus shifts in my original thread, and then put the quote up there for you to see.
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I wasn't asking about the 10 year number; I was asking about the 50 year number. But as you can't seem to explain how you arrived at that number and as I'm tired of asking, I'll just let it go.
__________________
The Ottawa Citizen and Southam News wish to apologize for our apology to Mark Steyn, published Oct. 22. In correcting the incorrect statements about Mr. Steyn published Oct. 15, we incorrectly published the incorrect correction. We accept and regret that our original regrets were unacceptable and we apologize to Mr. Steyn for any distress caused by our previous apology.
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14 May 2003, 09:10
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#37
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King of The Fat Boys
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 3,332
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It's like watching two bald men fighting over a comb
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14 May 2003, 09:34
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#38
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Ancient
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: The Police states of America
Posts: 464
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mirai
Texas borders us on the east. Unless you're counting that little outstretch of land up north that borders oklahoma, and I'm not, because it's all of a mile long.
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http://www.newmexico.org/maps/
http://www.jayzeebear.com/map/usa.html
look at the little southern border ;-) now granted mexico has part of the bottom border, but so does texas.
__________________
"Melting the steel, close to the sun
Dreaming away from this nightmare
A digital world where everyone feeds on lies
Falling from grace, the human race
Religion can never unite us
Only a few will stay on the barricades"
-Masterplan
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14 May 2003, 10:01
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#39
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InspirationOfNightmares
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: in scary dark woods
Posts: 292
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looking forward to see the stars in the american flag replaced by mini swastikas.
ALL HAIL BUSH AND THE NSDAPAO
upsi i mean the Republicans
__________________
LDK / Section
[23:11] <Zhil|FT> OMG BOH IS THE NEW KILLMARK
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14 May 2003, 10:54
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#40
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Ancient
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: The Police states of America
Posts: 464
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Quote:
Originally posted by BetrayerOfHope
looking forward to see the stars in the american flag replaced by mini swastikas.
ALL HAIL BUSH AND THE NSDAPAO
upsi i mean the Republicans
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Join the Free state project . Nothing like a libertarian paradise. :-D
__________________
"Melting the steel, close to the sun
Dreaming away from this nightmare
A digital world where everyone feeds on lies
Falling from grace, the human race
Religion can never unite us
Only a few will stay on the barricades"
-Masterplan
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14 May 2003, 13:13
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#41
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aka Inubis
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: .:: America ::.
Posts: 81
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Quote:
Originally posted by BetrayerOfHope
looking forward to see the stars in the american flag replaced by mini swastikas.
ALL HAIL BUSH AND THE NSDAPAO
upsi i mean the Republicans
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rather uncalled for really.
besides americans aren't anti-semitic, unlike those that make up europe.
have a nice day
__________________
Round 2 - 55:22:15 [Reborn]
Round 3 - 55:22:15 (yes again) and 8:11:23 (yup i had two accounts. sue me)
Round 4 - 244:24:? [virus] [ft]
Round 5 - 28:22:? [nfu] [virus]
Round 6 - 13:11:13 [wrath] [silver] .:: W00T 33:9 FOREVER \O/ ::.
Round 7 - 14:11:7 [FLTV] [Heresy]
Round 8 - Inactive/Quit
Round 9 - 41:6:10 - bashed to ***** by te ;-)
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14 May 2003, 13:15
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#42
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King of The Fat Boys
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 3,332
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"anti-semitic" and "not kissing Israel's arse" are not the same thing
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14 May 2003, 14:14
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#43
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InspirationOfNightmares
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: in scary dark woods
Posts: 292
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Quote:
Originally posted by Grind
rather uncalled for really.
besides americans aren't anti-semitic, unlike those that make up europe.
have a nice day
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perhaps not anti semitic but in fact there are enough racist ****heads arround.
__________________
LDK / Section
[23:11] <Zhil|FT> OMG BOH IS THE NEW KILLMARK
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14 May 2003, 14:26
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#44
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Angry Young Man
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Mister Cacciatore's down on Sullivan Street
Posts: 7,518
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Quote:
Originally posted by Grind
rather uncalled for really.
besides americans aren't anti-semitic, unlike those that make up europe.
have a nice day
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in what way is his statement any worse than yours?
You just nullified rights to an opinion.
__________________
Believe in me, cause i don't believe in anything
And i wanna be someone, to believe, to believe in
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14 May 2003, 15:32
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#45
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 329
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sandsnake
this has to be the funniest thing ever...saddest thing ever as well, but definately the funniest..
And yes, texas is an odd fking state.
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hey thats the first time I see that sandsnake is not defending the republicans like the mindless zombi that he is.
cool, never thought to see this day coming
__________________
"Security is the essential roadblock to achieving the road map to peace."
--George W. Bush, July 25, 2003
Mankind is ready to enter the solar system
George W. Bush, in his speech about his space program
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14 May 2003, 15:38
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#46
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 329
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The walkout has paralyzed the state House for two days. In Austin, Republicans exhibited a deck of cards bearing the lawmakers' pictures -- similar to those issued to U.S. troops to help identify fugitive Iraqi leaders -- and milk cartons bearing the images of the missing lawmakers.
looooooooooooooooooooooool
how funny looooooooooooooooool
__________________
"Security is the essential roadblock to achieving the road map to peace."
--George W. Bush, July 25, 2003
Mankind is ready to enter the solar system
George W. Bush, in his speech about his space program
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14 May 2003, 15:51
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#47
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Anon.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: not in Milton Keynes
Posts: 491
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What is redistricting?
And why does this benifit the Republicans ?
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14 May 2003, 17:10
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#48
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Retired
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Back Porch Bar
Posts: 2,593
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Quote:
Originally posted by Freakozoid
What is redistricting?
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Each state is divided into 'districts' based upon population. Each district, in turn, votes for one Congressman. These districts are redrawn after each census (every 10 years) in order to 'balance' the number of people within each; this is called redistricting.
Quote:
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And why does this benifit the Republicans ?
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Republicans say redistricting is necessary because current districts give Democrats a disproportionate number of seats. How they have come to that conclusion is beyond me; I only recently moved to Texas and I'm not updated on this issue.
A statement on behalf of Texas' Democratic Legislators: Why they left
Draw your own conclusions.
__________________
I'd rather be fishing.
Utterly useless since r3
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