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Unread 6 Nov 2012, 15:59   #151
Connovar
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Re: Ult and App

Fencing is bad whoever does it mmmkay

Wouter, shoo. You add nothing to this debate.

I admit i was being quite ideological about the 1v1 with ultores, i just fancied the challenge to be very honest. I dont understand alliances who say they arent playing to win, whats the point in playing otherwise? I can at least respect ultores for that.

Anyway, its been an interesting challenge defensively for us, morale is still high though, fingers crossed the rest of the round wont be all like this, and we will get a chance to poke our heads out again
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Unread 6 Nov 2012, 16:02   #152
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Re: Ult and App

Mz we are saying a lot of similar things in my example alliance x was apprime and alliance y was ult.

My main point is that largely due to their own actions Fang have forced ultores and apprime's hands to a certain extent whether they mean't to, or as is clearly the case by the bitching, by accident.

I was able to see a convo early round, up to and before tick 24, where cardi seemed to at least give consideration to a NAP in its simplest form just to avoid each other. At the same time as this negotiation was ongoing Fang BCs mistakenly targeted three app forts. At around the same point that member in the command room was asked not to speak politically for the alliance and told fang would remain neutral for as long as possible.

I myself voiced an opinion that Fang needed to wait outside the inevitable block that would form and when the block gave up targeting ult, usually around tick 600, fang then took on the mantle solo. I appreciate this is hitting a guy while he is down but if the goal is to simply stop ult winning that seems a pretty prudent way to do it. Let all the other opponents do the damage then come in for the killer blow. I'm not 100% sure if that approach had be tried before I believe HvN tried something else but in reverse it could equally be a terrible way to approach the problem of how to stop ult winning.

As it stands now, imo, unless Apprime decide they want to go for the win politics is in such a way that is conducive for another ultores victory. I just don't think that CT, now apparently napped with apprime they have the power to outroid ultores at this point, given previous rounds track records. I think Fang may have pissed too many people off. However, all can change as you say Mz it is very early to be congratulating ult on the 7th win. I am actually hoping to be proved wrong but as I say given previous rounds as an example it does seem unlikely.
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Unread 6 Nov 2012, 16:05   #153
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Re: Ult and App

Fang asked APP a round long nap (this was already hostility in our eyes), App declined it. Also if ULT asked us a round long nap the answer would be the same.
But then same day FANG were windowshoppin and getting alliances to war on APP.

This was an act of war even if the inc didnt show yet and even if alliances didnt want to join fang crusade on APP. They became the enemy of APP for the rest of the round.
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Unread 6 Nov 2012, 16:08   #154
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Re: Ult and App

I was unaware of any political negotiations to get app hit so we'll add that in sometime around the time that fang roided app forts for easy roids early round.
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Unread 6 Nov 2012, 16:17   #155
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Re: Ult and App

prolly FANG plan was. try to get APP on their side fast and if that wont happen try to get many alliances to take out APP very early in the round because their strategy would push APP and ULT together .. again
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Unread 6 Nov 2012, 16:20   #156
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Re: Ult and App

Ive been involved in most, if not all political discussions, and this trying to get app hit stuff is absolute nonsense. We have avoided all forms of blocking. We had a policy of avoiding apprime, that is all, some did mention trying to nap them so we could focus on Ultores. As is bullying them into joining a block, never our intention, it was merely tit for tat attacks following 3 or 4 nights of app incs alongside ult and dfwtk. Perhaps apprime thought we were targetting them on purpose in the begining, but this is perhaps due to incomplete or bad intel.

Never goin to get anywhere with these disscussions, i am trying to be honest about everything, but seems other arent capable of this or live in an imaginary land somewhere.

Its been fun, and fang are enjoying the challenge. For all enquiries, please direct them towards my lovely secretary, BB.
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Unread 6 Nov 2012, 16:50   #157
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Re: Ult and App

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Originally Posted by Connovar View Post
Ive been involved in most, if not all political discussions, and this trying to get app hit stuff is absolute nonsense. We have avoided all forms of blocking.
you might have been involved in most political discussions internally, but i can tell you that both rexdrax and I have been approached about the possibilty that we got involved in hitting Apprime(and Ultores) on multiple occasions, by multiple fang members. Even though we have been quite prudent that we would not get politically involved this round. Some of your members even went as far as being abusive in pm.
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Unread 6 Nov 2012, 17:50   #158
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Re: Ult and App

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Originally Posted by Wouter View Post
While avoiding blocks, why were several alliances contacted by fang to create a block? They just denied you though, cause of your history i guess..

1. fang was trying to make a block before receiving any incs
which leads to:
2. for every action, there is a reaction
which leads to:
3. make your actions count
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Unread 6 Nov 2012, 18:21   #159
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Re: Ult and App

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebos View Post
Mz we are saying a lot of similar things in my example alliance x was apprime and alliance y was ult.
Oh, I wasn't saying your post was wrong, I just wanted to address a couple of flaws.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebos View Post
I myself voiced an opinion that Fang needed to wait outside the inevitable block that would form and when the block gave up targeting ult, usually around tick 600, fang then took on the mantle solo. I appreciate this is hitting a guy while he is down but if the goal is to simply stop ult winning that seems a pretty prudent way to do it.
Indeed. A victory is a victory. The only thing to watch out for is burning bridges, as that will come back to haunt you in rounds to come.

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Originally Posted by Sebos View Post
I was unaware of any political negotiations to get app hit so we'll add that in sometime around the time that fang roided app forts for easy roids early round.
That was much later, around tick 300. We targetted FAnG for the first time(?) the night after.
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Unread 6 Nov 2012, 20:45   #160
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Re: Ult and App

By the way, I'm pretty impressed by how little fAng lost.
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Unread 6 Nov 2012, 21:08   #161
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Re: Ult and App

Quote:
Originally Posted by Connovar View Post
Ive been involved in most, if not all political discussions, and this trying to get app hit stuff is absolute nonsense. We have avoided all forms of blocking. We had a policy of avoiding apprime, that is all, some did mention trying to nap them so we could focus on Ultores. As is bullying them into joining a block, never our intention, it was merely tit for tat attacks following 3 or 4 nights of app incs alongside ult and dfwtk. Perhaps apprime thought we were targetting them on purpose in the begining, but this is perhaps due to incomplete or bad intel.

Never goin to get anywhere with these disscussions, i am trying to be honest about everything, but seems other arent capable of this or live in an imaginary land somewhere.

Its been fun, and fang are enjoying the challenge. For all enquiries, please direct them towards my lovely secretary, BB.
I could have sworn i saw titos say he runs the show politic wise.
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Unread 6 Nov 2012, 22:18   #162
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Re: Ult and App

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wouter View Post
i even think Forest would agree that ult did remarkable things.
I have been reading and following this thread with interest and I guess this is where I step back into the discussion.

I wish to address the above quote and also past rounds, they interlink, especially round 46.


I think at the start Ult did some good things, they certainly shook things up and made people think a bit more. I never (and don't) hate Ult at all, it is not like that.
I was always on the opposite side to them because they were the best and the only way to be the best is to beat the best. I have done that all the way through PA.

But, in round 46, Ult won.
Now the popular belief is that Ult won because CT/Fang etc had strategy wrong and Ult came back from the dead because the block wouldn't hold, and this in my opinion is fundamentally wrong.

IMO, ult did NOT win because they were good and they did NOT win because the strategy was wrong.
Infact, strategy was perfect and Ult were removed from the top ranks.

The reason Ult won, was because, rather than all the publicness of stopping Ult winning, alliances had their own agenda to win.
CT for instance knew the only way they could win was to hit Fang. So they took a chance, knowing that it was a risk that Ult could win, but they wanted to give themselves a shot at winning.

And it is easy for people on here to say CT should do this and fang should do that, but the fact is they don't/can't, for whatever reason. What they do do though, is impact on the round and have a shot at winning.

I would rather be in an alliance such as CT that tries to win and fails, than doesn't try and win at all.

Fast forward to R48, and Ult were behind. The game was stagnating and App were telling anyone who would listen that they had won gal/alliance and couldn't be stopped. When I personally approached Ult, with a proposition that could have seen them win, I was met with the response 'we don't care if App win'.
This is where the respect started to fall away fast as far as I am concerned. I would never put myself in a position where not trying to win is an option. So we were faced with hitting Ult only for them to say they don't mind losing, or hitting App, who said they would remove players so Ult win anyway.
Coupled with Cardi and hunter etc being abusive and saying they can't lose, it was quickly decided that we would take down App.
We could have taken Ult and it would have worked but there was no point.

For me, Ult didn't earn the win, it was a pointless exercise and they lost a lot of respect from me.

This round, no-one really cares anymore. Fang want to win but are being banged by three alliances.
The rest simply see no point in putting in any effort when they only get abused for it anyway.

We have seen this round, CT/ND etc have not taken part in block politics and it is pretty boring already.
Instead of hammering those alliances for failing, they should have praise for trying to win.
Ult can't have that same praise in my mind, they don't deserve it.

That is where I stand, it is how I feel and I have sound reasons for feeling like this.
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Unread 6 Nov 2012, 22:59   #163
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Re: Ult and App

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Originally Posted by Wouter View Post
I could have sworn i saw titos say he runs the show politic wise.
Being involved =/= running the show.
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Unread 6 Nov 2012, 23:11   #164
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Re: Ult and App

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest View Post
IMO, ult did NOT win because they were good and they did NOT win because the strategy was wrong.
Infact, strategy was perfect and Ult were removed from the top ranks.

The reason Ult won, was because, rather than all the publicness of stopping Ult winning, alliances had their own agenda to win.
CT for instance knew the only way they could win was to hit Fang. So they took a chance, knowing that it was a risk that Ult could win, but they wanted to give themselves a shot at winning.
While I see what you're trying to say here, the strategy didn't work if Ult still won. That much is self evident. You count the strategy successful and complete too early.

Quote:
The game was stagnating and App were telling anyone who would listen that they had won gal/alliance and couldn't be stopped. When I personally approached Ult, with a proposition that could have seen them win, I was met with the response 'we don't care if App win'.
This needs corrected for context and the rest of our opinion. Ult had been hit by multiple alliances to the point where a win was not a realistic option without some fairly bizarre happenings. Our opinion was that if we felt we could not win, we would prefer to see Apprime do so than one of the alliances that had been attacking us. I don't think that's unreasonable.

Quote:
Instead of hammering those alliances for failing, they should have praise for trying to win.
Ult can't have that same praise in my mind, they don't deserve it.
As for Ultores not trying to win: If this were even remotely true we wouldn't be sitting here on 6 wins in a row. There is no reasonable argument to claim otherwise.
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Unread 7 Nov 2012, 02:42   #165
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Re: Ult and App

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest View Post
For me, Ult didn't earn the win, it was a pointless exercise and they lost a lot of respect from me.
Well.. they did manage to trick you into hitting App. Of course Ult wanted to win if possible. It worked out perfectly, because App put up enough of a fight to keep those alliances preoccupied while Ult raped everyone else. They were initially hesitant to hit Haven and App had to push them to make it happen. Effectively, the alliance race was over after that and then the block to take away planet and galaxy win from Apprime. Both objectives failed.

Cardi was totally inactive the final two weeks last round, he even died at base to some alliance called pwnage, so you must have imagined a lot of the shit talking from him. Ult had huge resource stacks and were never behind last round, even if App had the lead for a while. ND never stopped hitting App the whole round and you still kept them in the block when hitting Ult, totally hilariously bad.

These Ult victories seem to have been half politics and half military superiority. And that is indeed the only way any alliance can win 6 in a row.
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Unread 7 Nov 2012, 06:06   #166
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Re: Ult and App

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shev View Post
While I see what you're trying to say here, the strategy didn't work if Ult still won. That much is self evident. You count the strategy successful and complete too early.
I believe you are wrong. The strategy worked perfectly.

The strategy was changed, because others wanted to play for the win, and that is the part that wasn't so successful.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Shev View Post
This needs corrected for context and the rest of our opinion. Ult had been hit by multiple alliances to the point where a win was not a realistic option without some fairly bizarre happenings. Our opinion was that if we felt we could not win, we would prefer to see Apprime do so than one of the alliances that had been attacking us. I don't think that's unreasonable.
Ult were #2 and although behind on roids by a fair bit, had a lot of ships available and were far from dead. At the time of talking, Ult could have easily have won by their own doing without needing a block to hand them the win.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shev View Post
As for Ultores not trying to win: If this were even remotely true we wouldn't be sitting here on 6 wins in a row. There is no reasonable argument to claim otherwise.
They were happy to see someone else win. No top alliance would ever do that and they lose respect from me for that.
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Unread 7 Nov 2012, 11:45   #167
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Re: Ult and App

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I believe you are wrong. The strategy worked perfectly.

The strategy was changed, because others wanted to play for the win, and that is the part that wasn't so successful.
I believe you are wrong. I've got some evidence.

PHP Code:
1    Ultores    344,535,074    416,361,893    107,150    66
2    FAnG    324
,259,869    414,795,533    77,230    77
3    Conspiracy    317
,232,842    403,897,717    93,807    76 
Quote:
Ult were #2 and although behind on roids by a fair bit, had a lot of ships available and were far from dead. At the time of talking, Ult could have easily have won by their own doing without needing a block to hand them the win.
We didn't agree. You don't exactly have a good track record of round winning strategy.

Quote:
They were happy to see someone else win. No top alliance would ever do that and they lose respect from me for that.
I don't think we would ever be happy seeing someone else win, although I can't say for sure, as we haven't done anything else yet. There, that's cleared it up for you. Stop trying to project onto us what you would like us to feel to fit your narrative.
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Unread 7 Nov 2012, 12:12   #168
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Re: Ult and App

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I don't know why peons on here keep coming back

That one made me chuckle.
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Unread 8 Nov 2012, 01:22   #169
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Re: Ult and App

Just so you know Forest your whining does more damage than good to allies playimg versus ultores. In other words Pal u are retired.
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Unread 8 Nov 2012, 04:32   #170
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Re: Ult and App

I'll conclude by saying... Who gives a crap? Seriously.
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Unread 8 Nov 2012, 06:45   #171
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Re: Ult and App

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Just so you know Forest your whining does more damage than good to allies playimg versus ultores. In other words Pal u are retired.
Nice comeback after I made some long thought out posts on here
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Unread 8 Nov 2012, 11:32   #172
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Re: Ult and App

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Nice comeback after I made some long thought out posts on here
they were definitely long...
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Unread 8 Nov 2012, 13:50   #173
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Re: Ult and App

Yah they were long thats true.
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Unread 8 Nov 2012, 14:10   #174
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Re: Ult and App

i didnt read them fully but they mostly spammed about rounds gone bye and not this one

CT are now allied to sexy and app... does that mean they attack ult? or the normal ct lame "lets fence who ever might win so we get less incs"
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Unread 8 Nov 2012, 14:13   #175
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Re: Ult and App

i can confirm that Ultores did receive ct incs today
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Unread 8 Nov 2012, 18:10   #176
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Re: Ult and App

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Originally Posted by tobyy View Post
i didnt read them fully but they mostly spammed about rounds gone bye and not this one

CT are now allied to sexy and app... does that mean they attack ult? or the normal ct lame "lets fence who ever might win so we get less incs"

i believe they gonna fence =p

well, forest talking a lot again.. hunter trying to be some1 in a forum...

lets keep the things as they are =)
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Unread 8 Nov 2012, 23:21   #177
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Re: Ult and App

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Would I also be right in assuming that ult and app have an agreement in place this round, even though no-one is attacking them and no-one shows the slightest inclination to hit them?
This post seems quite ironic now, seeing how you have allied 2 of the "big 3" alliances..

Remind me, how many heavy incs have CT received this round..?
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Unread 8 Nov 2012, 23:34   #178
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Re: Ult and App

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This post seems quite ironic now, seeing how you have allied 2 of the "big 3" alliances..

Remind me, how many heavy incs have CT received this round..?
Is Forest even a part of a alliance?
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Unread 9 Nov 2012, 00:29   #179
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Re: Ult and App

I assumed CT. Regardless, replace 'you' with 'CT' and the point still stands
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Unread 9 Nov 2012, 00:56   #180
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Re: Ult and App

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I assumed CT. Regardless, replace 'you' with 'CT' and the point still stands
No, your post makes no sense, to me atleast.
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Unread 9 Nov 2012, 01:09   #181
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Re: Ult and App

It's fairly simple. It's ironic because Forest's beloved CT are doing exactly what he was pointing the finger at Ult for doing. Yet I don't see an "CT and App/Fang" topic. One rule for one and not for another, eh?
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Unread 9 Nov 2012, 01:48   #182
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Re: Ult and App

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Originally Posted by Trunks View Post
It's fairly simple. It's ironic because Forest's beloved CT are doing exactly what he was pointing the finger at Ult for doing. Yet I don't see an "CT and App/Fang" topic. One rule for one and not for another, eh?
Despite peoples excuses for history, and other stuff being involved, it was ultores actions that forced fang to need to find some friends. Just sayin.

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Unread 9 Nov 2012, 03:55   #183
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Re: Ult and App

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Originally Posted by Connovar View Post
Despite peoples excuses for history, and other stuff being involved, it was ultores actions that forced fang to need to find some friends. Just sayin.

Sup trunks
it was fangs actions that pushed app and ult into hitting fang at the start of this round. CT have been very lucky to avoid backlash for the same thing
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Unread 9 Nov 2012, 04:49   #184
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Re: Ult and App

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Originally Posted by Blue_Esper View Post
it was fangs actions that pushed app and ult into hitting fang at the start of this round. CT have been very lucky to avoid backlash for the same thing
What actions?
Being in the lead?
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Unread 9 Nov 2012, 05:05   #185
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Re: Ult and App

no, hitting app and ult forts consecutively regardless of "gal raiding"
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Unread 9 Nov 2012, 05:42   #186
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Re: Ult and App

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no, hitting app and ult forts consecutively regardless of "gal raiding"
Its a good thesis indeed.
Within a week into the round the pattern of the pirate gal raidings was clearly pointing towards them having some serious hunger for hitting Ultores forts, that the once so brave Ultores saw no other option if they were to surive the bombardment from the aggresive space pirates, than to go find a big block and go pirate hunting. The pirate bot came allready equiped with intel on all alliances this round, especialy the the intel of other alliances forts, having filled the coord list and known were abouts of ultores, apprime and every other alliances forts long before pt24.
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Unread 9 Nov 2012, 07:21   #187
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Re: Ult and App

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Its a good thesis indeed.
Within a week into the round the pattern of the pirate gal raidings was clearly pointing towards them having some serious hunger for hitting Ultores forts, that the once so brave Ultores saw no other option if they were to surive the bombardment from the aggresive space pirates, than to go find a big block and go pirate hunting. The pirate bot came allready equiped with intel on all alliances this round, especialy the the intel of other alliances forts, having filled the coord list and known were abouts of ultores, apprime and every other alliances forts long before pt24.
dick.
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Unread 9 Nov 2012, 09:28   #188
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Re: Ult and App

Well said BB, obviously its difficult hearing the truth for some, I especially liked the delivery in the form of a story you would read a child, quite appropriate.
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Unread 9 Nov 2012, 10:28   #189
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Re: Ult and App

It doesn't even relate to what was said, just a bunch of trumpeteering about fang. a total waste of time writing/reading for everyone involved
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Unread 9 Nov 2012, 10:38   #190
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Re: Ult and App

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It doesn't even relate to what was said, just a bunch of trumpeteering about fang. a total waste of time writing/reading for everyone involved
It does relate to what was said, im disspointed your not bright enough to see it though.

What BB is saying, sarcastically, is that we didnt have the best intel at the start, and we werent to know we were hitting Ult and App forts early game. And yes, they were just gal raids.

But it was a convenient excuse for ult to get some friends and attack fang for a week!
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Unread 9 Nov 2012, 12:27   #191
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Re: Ult and App

As much as it pains me to disagree with people i speak to and quite like on irc. Trying to paint fang out as having bad intel early round is just plain wrong.

At least the part where we didn't know we were hitting app forts anyway since Hiall was in discussions with cardinal about a potential nap and all three nights he was informed we were/ had hit an app fort. We knew full and well that Apprime had all gone xan which is why they presented as good targets for an alliance going CR/BS.

The problem was that the notion to NAP and avoid Apprime was ignored. FAnG did not target apprime deliberately but they did target them. Thus in the opinion of myself and others on this board causing ult and app to work together and retal. The same is probably going to happen to CT but at the moment ult is being pinned down and apprime doesn't seem to be effective enough this round.

With regards to CT NAPing apprime and fang to tackle ult, good job, its something fang should have done early round. As it stands at the moment either by hook or by crook ult is being aggressively targeted and have had to ground. The thing I wait to see is if CT really have the goal of taking ultores down this round or winning the round. If as I suspect their goal is to win the round we will wait until Ultores appears down and out of it. At which point Apprime will end their NAP with CT and CT will get retalled by ultores and apprime together giving ult the roid lead and the value to stop fang riding the war to round win. Thus in my view history will be repeated again and I wait to be proven wrong
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Unread 9 Nov 2012, 12:47   #192
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Re: Ult and App

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It does relate to what was said, im disspointed your not bright enough to see it though.

What BB is saying, sarcastically, is that we didnt have the best intel at the start, and we werent to know we were hitting Ult and App forts early game. And yes, they were just gal raids.

But it was a convenient excuse for ult to get some friends and attack fang for a week!
I didn't say anything about fangs intel problems or knowingly hitting ult/app fort gals repeatedly i just said that that was what happened and why ult and app hit fang in retaliation for hitting ult and app constantly in great numbers...or did YOUR tiny brain miss that?
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Unread 9 Nov 2012, 12:53   #193
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Re: Ult and App

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Originally Posted by Sebos View Post
We knew full and well that Apprime had all gone xan which is why they presented as good targets for an alliance going CR/BS.
Ain't that the truth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebos View Post
The problem was that the notion to NAP and avoid Apprime was ignored. FAnG did not target apprime deliberately but they did target them. Thus in the opinion of myself and others on this board causing ult and app to work together and retal. The same is probably going to happen to CT but at the moment ult is being pinned down and apprime doesn't seem to be effective enough this round.
Apprime is just galraiding at the moment, while they're not being targetted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebos View Post
With regards to CT NAPing apprime and fang to tackle ult, good job, its something fang should have done early round. As it stands at the moment either by hook or by crook ult is being aggressively targeted and have had to ground. The thing I wait to see is if CT really have the goal of taking ultores down this round or winning the round. If as I suspect their goal is to win the round we will wait until Ultores appears down and out of it. At which point Apprime will end their NAP with CT and CT will get retalled by ultores and apprime together giving ult the roid lead and the value to stop fang riding the war to round win. Thus in my view history will be repeated again and I wait to be proven wrong
Following your line of reasoning, if CT/FaNG take down Ultores, and then Apprime/Ultores take down CT, that leaves fanG lonely at the top, with Ultores lagging behind on both value and size. If your scenario plays out, fANG seem like the alliance to beat to me.

I think it'll play out slightly differently, though. I'm guessing Apprime is more likely to stick with CT and help them take down faNG. For them to drop the nap with CT and thereby indirectly help fANg, who've been their most hostile opponent all round*, seems unlikely to me.

That said, I agree with you that Ultores is more likely to win than both of those.


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* Top attackers on alliance Apprime are (total: 529) Sexy Pirates - 137 | Innuendo - 63 | Howling Rain - 54 | NewDawn - 51 | xVx - 48 (Ignore the numbers, LDK only sees a small fraction of the incs. It's the ranking that matters.)
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Unread 9 Nov 2012, 13:29   #194
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Re: Ult and App

in contrast
Top attackers on alliance Ultores are (total: 1020) Conspiracy - 286 | Sexy Pirates - 229 | NewDawn - 135 | Howling Rain - 108 | xVx - 101
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Unread 9 Nov 2012, 15:01   #195
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Re: Ult and App

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Originally Posted by Blue_Esper View Post
I didn't say anything about fangs intel problems or knowingly hitting ult/app fort gals repeatedly i just said that that was what happened and why ult and app hit fang in retaliation for hitting ult and app constantly in great numbers...or did YOUR tiny brain miss that?
Difficult to try and reason with someone as stupid as you, so im not going to try
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Unread 9 Nov 2012, 15:14   #196
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Re: Ult and App

ditto
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Unread 9 Nov 2012, 18:04   #197
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Re: Ult and App

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Originally Posted by Blue_Esper View Post
in contrast
Top attackers on alliance Ultores are (total: 1020) Conspiracy - 286 | Sexy Pirates - 229 | NewDawn - 135 | Howling Rain - 108 | xVx - 101
Try not to use facts or numbers in a thread in which forest is participating. We like conjecture and fallacies.
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Unread 9 Nov 2012, 18:12   #198
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Re: Ult and App

I don't have an alliance and will unlikely join one this round, mainly due to Cardi threatening war with anyone who takes me on.

I would like to thank those who said they don't care and will recruit me anyway publically though. So, thanks.
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Unread 9 Nov 2012, 18:28   #199
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Re: Ult and App

Yet you didnt name any of them...

Why dont you just join Ultores.. see if Cardi is a man of his word
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Unread 9 Nov 2012, 20:08   #200
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Re: Ult and App

lol I would assume Ult won't take me
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