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Unread 13 Jan 2010, 15:43   #1
HaNzI
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New type of covop

I suggest a covop that gives you an overview of a planets stored scans. This will mainly be used to find Fleet Analysis scans of a certain planet.
Useful to determine whether your attacker launched a fake attack on you. This covop makes no harm whatsoever to the targeted planet and rewards activity since you have to "investigate".

a number of factors needs to be in place for a planet to achieve this:

- You need to research covops
- The target cant be immune
- The target needs to be able to Fleet Analysis scan the common attacker obviously, since thats the only way a fleet analysis scan can be stored..

Obviously any planet with covops can do this, so not everyone needs to research covops, but obviously it really pays of to know someone who can give you that very valuable scan. Will definately be worth having a covopper in the alliance.
Also taking into account you need a lot of these scans (huge incs) you will need several covoppers because stealthlevel drops and one covopper alone will not be able to "find" all these scans
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Unread 13 Jan 2010, 15:56   #2
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Re: New type of covop

Doesn't seem like it'll add anything to the game, by design it'd just take away from the art of guessing. Removing too many 'unknown' factors would take away hugely from the enjoyment of the game, making it simply a formality.
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Unread 13 Jan 2010, 16:44   #3
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Re: New type of covop

You would actually have to think twice before launching a fake on someone when your other target can incscan you. Only by being immune to covops you are able to fake as much as you want as noone will be able to steal the incscan on you

This might be a little complex but chew a little on it and you will realise this actually adds a lot to the game, especially in tactics.
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Unread 15 Jan 2010, 14:49   #4
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Re: New type of covop

I don't think it adds that much; also, it's more of a scan activity (intelligence gathering) than a covert op (damage dealing). I doubt many people. It's also good to hide some things. Also, does this mean if an alliance scanner is scanned you'll get a list of every single scan he has done and be able to view it? heh.
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Unread 15 Jan 2010, 15:50   #5
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Re: New type of covop

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Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
I don't think it adds that much; also, it's more of a scan activity (intelligence gathering) than a covert op (damage dealing). I doubt many people. It's also good to hide some things. Also, does this mean if an alliance scanner is scanned you'll get a list of every single scan he has done and be able to view it? heh.
Nah, I think he means you only get to see the inc scans the planet has done.
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Unread 15 Jan 2010, 18:02   #6
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Re: New type of covop

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Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
I don't think it adds that much; also, it's more of a scan activity (intelligence gathering) than a covert op (damage dealing). I doubt many people. It's also good to hide some things. Also, does this mean if an alliance scanner is scanned you'll get a list of every single scan he has done and be able to view it? heh.
In real life, Covert operations is more intelligence gathering then damage dealing though (i know this is a wargame)

This is not something you must do every day to keep up with the rest of the universe, this covop simply rewards you for investing more time into the game.

I didnt think about covopping an alliance scanner to see all his scans, but would that be such a bad idea? An alliance scanner should already be immune to getting his amps blown up so in most cases its not even possible to covop this planet

Overall the more you think about this covop the more complex it gets. In the bottom end this covop can not do much harm to anyone, but can mean the world to a planet who through effort and intelligence discover that a supposedly real fleet is fake
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Unread 15 Jan 2010, 19:32   #7
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Re: New type of covop

Lol, referencing "real life" when trying to make a point in a science-fiction, space-based warfare game is an instant fail.
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Unread 15 Jan 2010, 20:26   #8
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Re: New type of covop

Real life != the game paradigms ... you're breaking the scanning/covert op distinctions in game with no real reason as to why.
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Unread 15 Jan 2010, 20:55   #9
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Re: New type of covop

I was simply trying to give an example of what a covert operation really is. The way it is working now is that you try to sneak in to gather information unnoticed, so this will just be another way of acquiring valuable information. Difference between this covop and the others though is that it doesnt harm the targetted planet , but it gives badly wanted information to whoever "bought" the service. Just to point out what i said in my original post though, a number of criterias need to be in place for this to be possible, which will add a lot of needed variation to this game. It also really gives the role as "ally covopper" a much needed boost
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Unread 16 Jan 2010, 01:32   #10
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Re: New type of covop

A covert operation can't be exclusively defined as anything beyond a course of action that is kept secret. Trying to say that PA has interpreted it the wrong way whilst you have the right way is incredibly naive, even for you HaNzI.

Covert Operations, within the classification of the game, are simply operations that are designed to cause damage to another planet. There are a number of options that the player has that allows them to cause damage to another planet, and within the scope of the game these have been defined as covert operations. Nobody is trying to say that 'Covert Operations' is exclusively defined by the options the user has, which is where your logic fails.

Personally, my opinion hasn't changed and I still think that this wouldn't add anything especially constructive to the game. Just because you have a load more options, doesn't make it a better game. You could let the user choose the colour of each individual letter/character in the game and it'd give the user a whole load of new options - that doesn't mean it'd make it better.
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Unread 16 Jan 2010, 14:21   #11
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Re: New type of covop

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Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
A covert operation can't be exclusively defined as anything beyond a course of action that is kept secret. Trying to say that PA has interpreted it the wrong way whilst you have the right way is incredibly naive, even for you HaNzI.

Covert Operations, within the classification of the game, are simply operations that are designed to cause damage to another planet. There are a number of options that the player has that allows them to cause damage to another planet, and within the scope of the game these have been defined as covert operations. Nobody is trying to say that 'Covert Operations' is exclusively defined by the options the user has, which is where your logic fails.

Personally, my opinion hasn't changed and I still think that this wouldn't add anything especially constructive to the game. Just because you have a load more options, doesn't make it a better game. You could let the user choose the colour of each individual letter/character in the game and it'd give the user a whole load of new options - that doesn't mean it'd make it better.

I never stated i think PA-team has made covops wrong or that i want them to change in any way, i was just saying that using covops to gather information without actually harming the targetted planet is a viable option too.

Also take sabotage for instance, this covop kills 10 ships (wow) although it does harm the targetted planet the real goal is to gather intelligence so there is no clear definition for how covops should work. Therefore my suggestion for this covop which is only for gathering valuable intellingence, is just as viable as the existing covops.

Again, nothing wrong with the existing covops, i have no idea where you even got that from
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Unread 16 Jan 2010, 15:26   #12
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Re: New type of covop

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Originally Posted by HaNzI View Post
I never stated i think PA-team has made covops wrong or that i want them to change in any way, i was just saying that using covops to gather information without actually harming the targetted planet is a viable option too.
Viable if you're willing to remove the difference between scanning and cov ops. From his post, I deduce that he isn't, which puts an end to your suggestion.

Totally offtopic:
Appoco, I think you should make your opinion on subjects such as this one known more often. It helps to make clear what suggestions are worth making and which aren't. I don't want to go into cliche-mode, but "help us help you".
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Unread 24 Jan 2010, 22:54   #13
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Re: New type of covop

I'd like to see the 'Sabotage' Covop change a little,
Instead of it targetting the ships at base
i think it would be better if you could sabotage a fleet of theirs.

i.e somebody is attacking you with fleet 'Alpha,' you Sabotage that fleet, and it can then tell you what ships are in that fleet

Also works for if a fleet is defending against you, especially good to find out xan fakes !
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Unread 24 Jan 2010, 23:28   #14
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Re: New type of covop

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Originally Posted by Scott View Post
I'd like to see the 'Sabotage' Covop change a little,
Instead of it targetting the ships at base
i think it would be better if you could sabotage a fleet of theirs.

i.e somebody is attacking you with fleet 'Alpha,' you Sabotage that fleet, and it can then tell you what ships are in that fleet

Also works for if a fleet is defending against you, especially good to find out xan fakes !
Also works if you're defending with a fakefleet yourself and want it returned!

(And then people start sending 20 ship fakefleets ^^)
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Unread 25 Jan 2010, 13:19   #15
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Re: New type of covop

Killing 10 ships in the normal Sabotage is pretty pointless anyway, if appoco is saying the point of covops is to cause damage and not gather intelligence.

Maybe it would be better if it killed a certain percentage of the ships
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Unread 25 Jan 2010, 13:41   #16
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Re: New type of covop

I would support an increase in strength for some cov ops. Info Blackout could be nerfed a little (instead of 15 agents per dist AND amp you could make it 12 agents per dist OR amp), while sabotage, exploding fist and network charting could do with a boost. For example, respectively, 3 ships/agent (instead of 1) , 2 agents/roid (instead of 3) and 10 stealth/agent (instead of 1).
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Unread 2 Feb 2010, 16:59   #17
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Re: New type of covop

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Originally Posted by Scott View Post
Killing 10 ships in the normal Sabotage is pretty pointless anyway, if appoco is saying the point of covops is to cause damage and not gather intelligence.

Maybe it would be better if it killed a certain percentage of the ships
I think this cov op lost its effect as damage dealer when the ship costs got lowered by the factor 10. Before that change, you obviously did alot more damage by blowing up 10 ships than you do now. It developed into a pure way of gathering intelligence as opposed to killing something valueable only since then really.

I agree with increasing the damage output of several cov ops, or replace one of them by a new operation, to make them more useful.
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Unread 2 Feb 2010, 21:22   #18
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Re: New type of covop

Honestly, I think sabotage should be much more powerful and target value ranges per agent instead of single ships. That way hitting bigger ships classes/races won't affect the effectiveness of it.
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