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Unread 17 Dec 2014, 15:25   #51
isildurx
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Update to the stats

Wraith is now T1=CO T2=FI
Improved the E/R of the Lancer, Wraith and Beetle slightly
Added ship Weaver | Race = Cat| Class=DE| T1=FI T2=CO
Changed Scarab - It is now a Normal ship rather than an EMP ship.
Changed init on Defender 3=>2
CHanged init on Ranger 2=>1
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Unread 17 Dec 2014, 16:47   #52
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post

I like how you advice me to start over again on my set of stats that are actually GOOD, while you refuse to make any sensible changes your set which isn't close to as good

One reason to go DE over FR is that the DE fleet targets 5 classes, FR only four, means you can build one less ship.

I'm not adverse to giving cath a DE anti FI/CO and also possibly a pod, but I want to have a constructive discussion about it, i.e no comments from you please.
Id told you to add a cath DE roiding fleet, and not make co less powerfull. Increasing the E/R for xan/etd anti CO does not solve the issue with DE.
All you are doing is making a DE strat less valueable.

This is where our stats differs the most, viable team ups for all classes in mine almost, and only one for your ziks/ter.
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Unread 17 Dec 2014, 17:44   #53
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

What??

Every class from CO through BS is improved in my stats by having multiple races attacking together.
If a ETD steal fi pods then FI also is improved..
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Unread 17 Dec 2014, 18:39   #54
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
What??

Every class from CO through BS is improved in my stats by having multiple races attacking together.
Giving a pod class to a race doesn't mean that race is improved.
And stating that DE strat is as viable as FR strat just because you can build 1 less ship, doesn't either.
Ter and Zik DE rely on Cath getting De pods. Else they are pretty much useless on attacking.
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Unread 17 Dec 2014, 18:43   #55
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Which class do you think is not improved by having multiple races attacking together?

I am fully aware that DE isn't the best class for attacking, but it is the strongest option defensively, so players who like to avoid incs can focus on DE. If caths steal de pods then de teamups are very viable.
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Unread 17 Dec 2014, 18:50   #56
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
Which class do you think is not improved by having multiple races attacking together?
DE

Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
I am fully aware that DE isn't the best class for attacking, but it is the strongest option defensively, so players who like to avoid incs can focus on DE. If caths steal de pods then de teamups are very viable.
Still the same issue: DE strat relys on Cath willing to covop to get DE pods.
So, you need Caths to research FR/DE Hulls + Ship Stealing.
Considering Cath also needs/wants Hulls, Cores and TT research, ship covop will only happen like t400 or later. Meanwhile, Ter and Zik DE might better take the round off til then ... or latestart.
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Unread 17 Dec 2014, 18:54   #57
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

The first couple of hundred ticks almost noone defends, I don't see why zik/ter DE should have any problem whatsoever roiding Etd and Cat during that period. ALso, many terrans and ziks are unlikely to have hulls 3 early, so you can hit them early on too.

ALso, incase you haven't notice, Ter and Zik both have other fleets to attack with than DE; maybe use them early and switch to DE later? Alternatively, don't go Ter and Zik.

edit: it's also very possible for caths to attack some races with DE + co pods
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Unread 17 Dec 2014, 19:17   #58
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Ter and Zik are supposed to be late init races that pack a punch and are solid defensively. They shouldn't be some attacking powerhouse team.

Xan Fi doesn't even have a team but your not griping about that.

As Isil says, if you don't like DE then don't play DE.

I for one really like Terran Dr so ill be playing that
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Unread 17 Dec 2014, 19:42   #59
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Ter and Zik are supposed to be late init races that pack a punch and are solid defensively. They shouldn't be some attacking powerhouse team.
That argument would make sense if it was the case across the board that they have bad init except that you have terran bs with good init teamed with another fleet that has good init. You also have zik cr with good init teamed with another with good init.

As you say you can choose not to play these races de, but the problem with that is why would anyone play de when the other options for both race are so much better? Would it not make more sense to make zik cr a bit worse and de a bit better or ter bs a bit worse and de a bit better? In both cases their team will remain good even with a worse ship as their teamup partners have emp.
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Unread 17 Dec 2014, 19:57   #60
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by lince View Post
So, you need Caths to research FR/DE Hulls + Ship Stealing.
Considering Cath also needs/wants Hulls, Cores and TT research, ship covop will only happen like t400 or later. Meanwhile, Ter and Zik DE might better take the round off til then ... or latestart.
Cat is also the race with far and away the best research. If you combine that with staying on Demo for a bit longer than you otherwise would, a De fleet comes within easy reach.

Considering that pretty much any fleet roids well early on, that leaves just a small timespan during which Ter and Zik De lack EMP support. I feel this is more than made up for by the defensive strength of De. You can't have it all. A fleet that is strong defensively cannot also be strong offensively. Therefore, I oppose any further buffs to De, except for perhaps some tweaks to the effs of Cat De, either up or downwards, if sufficient reason can be given.
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Unread 17 Dec 2014, 20:08   #61
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Saying that DE is good, even though you cannot attack with it?
"If you dont like DE dont choose it".
Well that means that less people will choose DE, and that again means that there will be more planets in the FR strat wich those few people that for some reason think DE is good cannot roid.
The whole structure of these strat is flawed due to DE, if you dont need to build vipers cus there is no reason _WHAT SO EVER_ to build Thief/Pegasus everything will be unbalanced.

Why is Thief normal? Couldnt it aswell be steal? Would you not want to steal beetles?

Fireblade AND Banshee out inits all DE. Where is the logic in this?

Dealer out inits zik DE. Want to roid a ETD with DE? Better hope you got a Terran handy, and pray to god that that ETD aint friends with some Xan that got Fireblades or Banshee.


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Unread 17 Dec 2014, 20:13   #62
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Cat is also the race with far and away the best research. If you combine that with staying on Demo for a bit longer than you otherwise would, a De fleet comes within easy reach.

Considering that pretty much any fleet roids well early on, that leaves just a small timespan during which Ter and Zik De lack EMP support. I feel this is more than made up for by the defensive strength of De. You can't have it all. A fleet that is strong defensively cannot also be strong offensively. Therefore, I oppose any further buffs to De, except for perhaps some tweaks to the effs of Cat De, either up or downwards, if sufficient reason can be given.
Id like to hear the ship strat guru of alliance X who would consider going for a covop strat based around stealing DE pods with these stats. Find me one that consider this is a good plan except you and kaiba.
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Unread 17 Dec 2014, 20:37   #63
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

There will be PLENTY of de pods around the first week, shouldn't be a big problem to covop some. Also, why do you think everyone will go fr and de?

I don't remember fr being very popular in r56
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Unread 17 Dec 2014, 21:27   #64
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
There will be PLENTY of de pods around the first week, shouldn't be a big problem to covop some. Also, why do you think everyone will go fr and de?

I don't remember fr being very popular in r56
What is plenty in your eyes? DE aint a good option for attacking, and a lot of the ters will be heading for BS. Those few ters that will be having DE pods build it just to catch some easy roids early on, having em out flying with slow eta.
To some extent covops been used targetting popular attack classes. With these stats DE will NOT fall into this category.

I went covop last round, and used 200ish ticks on getting enough xan pods wich there actualy, in your words, plenty off.

You are now arguing stats like tiamata. Using examples to justify certain _RACE STRAT_ options wich is extremly hypotetical.
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Unread 17 Dec 2014, 21:54   #65
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Hey its just my opinion. If De is the worst class, then there must be lots of good options out there, cause the de fleets are ok and can also be faked.
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Unread 17 Dec 2014, 21:59   #66
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Saying that DE is good, even though you cannot attack with it?
That is a gross misrepresentation of what I actually said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Well that means that less people will choose DE, and that again means that there will be more planets in the FR strat wich those few people that for some reason think DE is good cannot roid.
If De cannot roid Fr, and Fr can roid De, then no one going De will make Fr weaker, not stronger, by depriving it of targets.

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
The whole structure of these strat is flawed due to DE, if you dont need to build vipers cus there is no reason _WHAT SO EVER_ to build Thief/Pegasus everything will be unbalanced.
If no one builds Vipers, then Ters and Ziks will want to build Pegs and Thieves to stop Co incs easily, which in turn will make Cats build Vipers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Why is Thief normal? Couldnt it aswell be steal? Would you not want to steal beetles?
Beetles, yes. Fi, no. Could move the T2 Fi to the Clipper, I guess, and then make the Thief steal? That would make the Clipper the only ship in the stats with a gap in its targetting, but I guess that's kind of a petty argument.

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Fireblade AND Banshee out inits all DE. Where is the logic in this?

Dealer out inits zik DE. Want to roid a ETD with DE? Better hope you got a Terran handy, and pray to god that that ETD aint friends with some Xan that got Fireblades or Banshee.
What do you suggest, keeping in mind that a large overhaul of these stats is not on the books, from what I can tell from Isil's posts?
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Unread 17 Dec 2014, 22:36   #67
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Considering that pretty much any fleet roids well early on, that leaves just a small timespan during which Ter and Zik De lack EMP support.
You noticed that Pegasus is outinitted by any fi/co, except, ofc, zik co's?
So, Ter DE option is attacking Ziks, due to Drake init 6. And Caths, ofc.
And for Zik, since Clipper is outinitted by any FR, that leaves only Ter as target.
With an excellent 54% eff vs Harpy. And Caths ofc.

And why Cath will go DE? init 3 on both emp ships (outinitted by both viper, defender, roach and guardian) and outinitted also on scarab?
Yeah, definitly best option for Cath.

That is just the issue i see on these stats: every other race/class has very good options for attack and defense.
Ziks just have to manage to steal CO's or BS and will have another 2nd fleet, besides the CR/BS one
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Unread 17 Dec 2014, 22:44   #68
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

If zik/ter's inability to roid the only fault about these stats then I'm happy. I feel like all five races are very playable and should have a solid amount of players choosing them.
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Unread 17 Dec 2014, 22:52   #69
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
If zik/ter's inability to roid the only fault about these stats then I'm happy.
Ofc they can roid, even soloing, just not with DE: Zik with CR/BS and Ter with BS.
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Unread 17 Dec 2014, 23:02   #70
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

FR can roid everything else aswell mz?

If no major overhaul is on the books, what is on the book?
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Unread 18 Dec 2014, 09:17   #71
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

These stats are pretty much final barring anyone coming up with some real fine ideas. The stats were good to begin with, now they have been fine-tuned, so they are even better.
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Unread 18 Dec 2014, 09:38   #72
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Could you list up all changes from the originals?
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Unread 18 Dec 2014, 09:40   #73
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Update to the stats

Wraith is now T1=CO T2=FI
Improved the E/R of the Lancer, Wraith and Beetle slightly
Added ship Weaver | Race = Cat| Class=DE| T1=FI T2=CO
Changed Scarab - It is now a Normal ship rather than an EMP ship.
Changed init on Defender 3=>2
CHanged init on Ranger 2=>1
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Unread 18 Dec 2014, 11:51   #74
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

I guess the changes in your stats means that there will be very few alliances going CO.
The most vital change you made in your stats was moving the scarab from EMP to Normal.

Now Appocomaster should save the stats so we can move onto Machados stats, im not sure how Close to finish he is With his.
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Unread 18 Dec 2014, 11:52   #75
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Ziks want to steal CO, not FI, since it's pretty useless on Zik fleet combo.
So, cutlass or thief should steal CO T1.
Also, Etd should have the chance to steal FR; stealing CO is ok, but not one of the attack fleets. Even with a low eff, devastator should have the chance to steal FR T2.
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Unread 18 Dec 2014, 14:18   #76
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Anyone else got thoughts on changing cutlass targetting to T1=CO T2=FI
and adding a T2=FR(with reduced eff) on the dev?
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Unread 18 Dec 2014, 14:31   #77
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

I think they are as good as they can get atm without major changes
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Unread 18 Dec 2014, 14:37   #78
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

I agree there, without major changes to the game mechanics of pa it's hard to get stats much better.
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Unread 18 Dec 2014, 14:38   #79
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

stats is looking decent zik looks the least useful to me atm, doubt any of the 2 suggested changes will impact the stats much
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Unread 18 Dec 2014, 14:48   #80
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
I agree there, without major changes to the game mechanics of pa it's hard to get stats much better.
I meant changes to your stats
I have a diffrent look at stats than you, so we wont agree what ever we do. Just finish em fast so we can start breaking down the 3rd set
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Unread 18 Dec 2014, 16:19   #81
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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stats is looking decent zik looks the least useful to me atm, doubt any of the 2 suggested changes will impact the stats much
Not intended to "impact the stats much", just making zik a little better than "least useful".
Anyway, Mz already suggested Thief change.
As Zik, you don't want to "kill" CO, instead steal those.
That on expense of Zik DE not able to soloing Ter for the 1st 200 ticks is pretty much nothing.
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Unread 18 Dec 2014, 16:46   #82
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

So a possible solution could be;

Thief changed to STEAL T1=CO
Clipper changed to T1=FR T2=FI
Harpy changed to init 9
Pegasus changed to init 10


What do you think about that?
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Unread 18 Dec 2014, 16:53   #83
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Agreed. Just be aware of thief vs corsair init: thief had init advantage.
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Unread 18 Dec 2014, 17:36   #84
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

So you think thief should be init 18?
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Unread 18 Dec 2014, 19:51   #85
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Yeah.
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Unread 18 Dec 2014, 20:22   #86
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

The Thief change sounds good to me (but then I would say that), but the Cutlass change I'm not a fan of. While I agree with the motivation (Ziks don't want Fi), making a steal ship fire at itself tends to be a bad idea.

A better fix might be to make Ziks want Fi by adding a Zik Fi. That would also allow a simpler change to the Thief, just make it steal at init 18, no target swaps necessary.
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Unread 18 Dec 2014, 20:25   #87
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

So perhaps give zik a FI killship with T1=DE?

I'm not sure we need to take it that far though, maybe just stop with the Thief
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Unread 19 Dec 2014, 00:52   #88
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
I think these stats dont need to be adjusted.
CO shouldnt be nerphed, all the CO allies that round got shafted
yeah he is speaking the truth
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Unread 20 Dec 2014, 13:12   #89
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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yeah he is speaking the truth
No he isnt, he is just chatting drivel as per...

The major mistakes Bitcher makes when analysing previously used stats is to confuse the politics of that round with how the stats actually interacted with each other.

It is of no relevance wether Co alliances got 'shafted' or if CR was OP or whatever as this was all based on the politics of THAT round. All we need is a bcalc to check the balance of interactions between the classes and races and make sure there is enough options available to make the players choice of race and class not straight forward.

To lince who i campaigning to make Zik 'playable' i am dismayed that Isil has caved in on this. I think Zik is ruined now and was fine as it was. When you give Zik the power to steal on the same class it becomes very OP. Im a big believer that Zik should always be set so for example DE steals CO or CR steals DE and at a push that FR steals DE and FI steals CO but NEVER that CO steals CO etc...

Those that complain about Zik invariably dont know how to play it and just love the idea of stealing something.
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Unread 20 Dec 2014, 13:40   #90
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
No he isnt, he is just chatting drivel as per...

The major mistakes Bitcher makes when analysing previously used stats is to confuse the politics of that round with how the stats actually interacted with each other.

It is of no relevance wether Co alliances got 'shafted' or if CR was OP or whatever as this was all based on the politics of THAT round. All we need is a bcalc to check the balance of interactions between the classes and races and make sure there is enough options available to make the players choice of race and class not straight forward.

To lince who i campaigning to make Zik 'playable' i am dismayed that Isil has caved in on this. I think Zik is ruined now and was fine as it was. When you give Zik the power to steal on the same class it becomes very OP. Im a big believer that Zik should always be set so for example DE steals CO or CR steals DE and at a push that FR steals DE and FI steals CO but NEVER that CO steals CO etc...

Those that complain about Zik invariably dont know how to play it and just love the idea of stealing something.
Unless i didn't understood right ( my english might have failed me on this):
1st: never said that CO should steal CO (the change on cutlass targetting was suggested, since any change on the DE was objected til then).
2nd: Zik able to steal CO gives them a better attack fleet than DE, which, in my view, is purely defensive, if they happen to steal CO.
3rd: the ability of Zik to steal something is to improve their fleets, which usually lack initiative.
4th: and Zik steal FI just because...?
5th:with these stats, i won't go Zik, unless big changes on the DE, which will never happen.

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Unread 20 Dec 2014, 15:41   #91
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Quote:
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All we need is a bcalc to check the balance of interactions between the classes and races and make sure there is enough options available to make the players choice of race and class not straight forward.
I don't entirely agree. The race choices of the vast majority of active players are determined by alliance fleet strategies. Races can work fine when you play them against each other 1v1 or 2v2 in a bcalc, but fail to provide a solid alliance strategy. Both aspects must be taken into account.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Isil has caved in on this.
Nothing has changed since Isil added the Weaver.
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Unread 20 Dec 2014, 19:36   #92
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

PA has always, and will always be determined on what you can cover yourself with in a race strat.

If DE aint gonna be played, it will hurt the whole dynamics of the stats
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Unread 21 Dec 2014, 02:22   #93
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Why?
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Unread 21 Dec 2014, 11:49   #94
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Okay, so I'm torn on what I'm gonna be doing re: zik DE;

The current options are;

1. Keep it as it is, no changes.
2. Thief changed to T1=CO type = steal and Clipper becomes T1=FR T2=FI. Harpy gets init 9 and Pegasus init 10
3. Thief changed to Steal - Add a FI class anti DE killship to zik.


Whichever one people lean towards I'll implement
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Unread 21 Dec 2014, 15:24   #95
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Option 2 seems best to me.

One problem with Zik is always the accidental stealing that messes up your fleet, with Thief stealing Co, this doesnt seem to be a big problem.
There shouldn't be a lot of Co fleets that defend vs the Zik DE attack, basically only Vipers, and those would actually be nice to steal. Since your DE fleet lacks anti DE so you need to fill that hole somehow anyway.
Tho not sure how the init will be compared to init of the Corsair?

Clipper killing FR/Fi is nice, you probably dont want to steal those shipclasses anyway.

I think this change would make DE a bit stronger vs CO fleets, and make Zik DE tempting to play. Makes the DE a bit more different from the Terran DE and give them their own advantage over Terran DE. So that if a bp/ally decides to go DE, a mix is better than just having Terrans.

oh and with option 3 - you kinda make Zik's nicer, but weaken their DE at same time with the extra fi killing DE.
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Unread 21 Dec 2014, 17:10   #96
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

In option #2 I guess thief would be init 18
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Unread 22 Dec 2014, 05:23   #97
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Changing Thief to steal Co will do absolutely nothing. The only people that will build the Thief over Cutlass are those going for DE, not CO. Cutlass will always be the better option if you want to build a good CO fleet. You don't need anything other than DE+Pirate to target everything, so why would you want to steal CO? IF (and that's a big if) people would go for Zik DE, they will want to kill shit, not steal it and lose value in their DE fleet.

Zik had one thing going for itself, and that was the Cutlass. Zik DE sucked, Zik CR sucked (are we just going to ignore the fact that it's the only fleet that has 3 ST ships of which only one is good?).

Lower Thief's init to 5 (and perhaps dump War Frigate, change some effs, Pegasus T1=Fi and/or move T2 to Drake, etc) and we can talk about Thief being built over Cutlass.
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Unread 22 Dec 2014, 14:25   #98
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

You will always want to steal EMP ships, either for you attack fleet or for defence. Who wouldnt want beetles?
Zik is a stealing race, and most rounds theyve been changed around to be a killer race(Tia stats a good example), the stats has been crap
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Unread 22 Dec 2014, 16:25   #99
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

There is no reason to go for DE and try to steal/go for CO. Even stealing Beetles will mean you're about even against Xan FI, but weaker against CO. If you want to steal CO just go for Cutlass.
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Unread 22 Dec 2014, 17:18   #100
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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There is no reason to go for DE and try to steal/go for CO. Even stealing Beetles will mean you're about even against Xan FI, but weaker against CO. If you want to steal CO just go for Cutlass.
Beetles is usualy the most desired ship in any ship stats. In eta FI def, and alongside cutlass good for CO def.
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