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Unread 5 Feb 2008, 08:25   #1
Zaejii
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Politics -> Planet Status

currently, being set as 'not wanted' or 'wanted' allows you to see incoming fleets. the only way to see outgoing fleets is to be set to 'trusted'.

a suggestion i would like to make is to allow 'trusted' to stay the way that it is, make 'wanted' only show incoming fleets, and change 'not wanted' to only allowing that person see their personal fleet status and nothing else.

if you need reasons for this i'll be happy to supply at least one or two, if you're incapable of figuring it out yourself.
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Unread 5 Feb 2008, 09:24   #2
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

Pretending you're too good to need to supply reasons may work on AD, but this is the Suggestions forum.
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Unread 5 Feb 2008, 09:50   #3
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

One could imagine it could stop people that are set to 'not wanted' being used as a free jgp. Zaejii may have other reasons for it though.
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Unread 5 Feb 2008, 12:59   #4
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

actually i think the way people can pass status is a spicy part of the game

keep your friends close, keep your enemys closer etc
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Unread 5 Feb 2008, 13:53   #5
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

It's akin to 'spying'.

If you're going to 'spy' on your gal, you shouldn't play alongside them.
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Unread 5 Feb 2008, 14:03   #6
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

Playing alongside them is in fact the best way of spying on them.
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Unread 5 Feb 2008, 14:05   #7
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

I wasn't arguing with that, I was saying it was wrong to spy
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Unread 5 Feb 2008, 14:55   #8
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBA
actually i think the way people can pass status is a spicy part of the game

keep your friends close, keep your enemys closer etc
Except you can't choose. I wouldn't mind if galaxies were private, in that case I could invite my enemy to my private galaxy. But this way my enemy can exile in at any time.
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Unread 5 Feb 2008, 15:26   #9
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny
I wasn't arguing with that, I was saying it was wrong to spy
Wrong, or inconvenient for you?
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Unread 5 Feb 2008, 16:04   #10
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
Except you can't choose. I wouldn't mind if galaxies were private, in that case I could invite my enemy to my private galaxy. But this way my enemy can exile in at any time.
Rather saliently here this is also no get-out clause. Even if you wanted to you could not exile this planet for 48 ticks.
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Unread 5 Feb 2008, 16:55   #11
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

surely galaxy politics and the way gals work with trust is a huge, fun, entertaining part of the game...

if u dont want spys exiling in, dont exile the shit idlers, just leave them in your gal, atleast then they wont spy
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Unread 5 Feb 2008, 18:12   #12
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

Its strange how the same people moan about fake nicks destroying the game yet they then turn around and want to completely exclude members of a galaxy from being part of the galaxy. Anyone would think people here want a game consisting of 100 players split into 2 alliance rather than a game that is open and will grow
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Unread 5 Feb 2008, 19:52   #13
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
Its strange how the same people moan about fake nicks destroying the game yet they then turn around and want to completely exclude members of a galaxy from being part of the galaxy. Anyone would think people here want a game consisting of 100 players split into 2 alliance rather than a game that is open and will grow
In what sense is handing out gal statuses/not sending def being "part of a galaxy"?
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Unread 5 Feb 2008, 20:11   #14
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
In what sense is handing out gal statuses/not sending def being "part of a galaxy"?
Its not but your point isn't relevant because most people don't do that. Treating the masses as spys because of a few isnt the way to build up the ingal trust and co-operation
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Unread 5 Feb 2008, 21:52   #15
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

yeh but wakey, the players moaning here on AD lack the popularity that you and I both have... its a real shame
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Unread 5 Feb 2008, 21:52   #16
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

oh also, aparantly PA is not a popularity contest
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Unread 5 Feb 2008, 22:03   #17
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
Its not but your point isn't relevant because most people don't do that. Treating the masses as spys because of a few isnt the way to build up the ingal trust and co-operation
I can't imagine this is going to be used in any situation bar ones where it's certain that the other player is handing out gal statuses. After all I'd far rather ensure my incs get reported and have a slight chance my gal status will be handed out than have them go unreported. What I'd like is an option if the situation does arise.
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Unread 5 Feb 2008, 22:13   #18
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
Its not but your point isn't relevant because most people don't do that. Treating the masses as spys because of a few isnt the way to build up the ingal trust and co-operation
I completely disagree. Coercion is not trust. Trust is not something that can be thrust upon a relationship. If there was a get-out clause, then there would be a mechanic for signaling trust; you could set someone to be able to see incoming on the galstatus. Currently you can only signal trust by not exiling someone (weak), allowing them access to your galchannel (weak, there may be a private galchannel in addition to the current one) or inviting them to your alliance (strong, alliance spots are generally sought after).

I do what I can. I signal trust by inviting everyone to the galchannel, I don't have a private channel on top of the normal galchannel and I always invite galaxy mates that have helped out and been friendly* to join Ascendancy.

But sometimes, there are galmates I won't trust. Currently, I'm in the same galaxy as [ND]Spritfire. I know I can't trust him beyond simple galaxy matters, because he has openly displayed a lack of trust for the galaxy (he was unlucky enough to get hit by Ascendancy planets out of protection and assumed we'd organized it. Without commenting on the accuracy of that assumption, the event clearly ruined the trust between us.) Last round I was in a gal with him as well, and the trust issue didn't even come up, it was implicit (as far as I was concerned anyway.)

I think it should be clear that this isn't some knee-jerk reaction, but a position I've reached through deliberation and considering both sides of the matter. I remain convinced that my position is the correct one.

* I have very liberal definitions of friendly, as Wakey will attest.
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Unread 6 Feb 2008, 10:15   #19
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

It's all nice and fun to argue that galaxys should work together, or that spys are a part of the game and that it's the gal that should be looking our for them, but neither applies to the subject of this discussion.

This is to do with planets which are not participating or otherwise unwanted within the galaxy. This is to do with planets who will be exiled as soon as possible. This is to do with the fact that the galaxy has no way of protecting itself from the spy while waiting for him to be exileable. It's not about the player working together with the gal, gaining their trust and covertly spying on them. This is no-skill spying which there's no countermeasure for. Arguing that this should not be fixed is simply absurd.
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Unread 6 Feb 2008, 13:10   #20
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

i thought thats what setting not-wanted did anyway, obviously i need to learn how to play pa!
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Unread 6 Feb 2008, 13:44   #21
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alki
i thought thats what setting not-wanted did anyway, obviously i need to learn how to play pa!
Just to confirm, does setting a planet's status to 'not-wanted' still block all incomings/outgoings on the galaxy screen?
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Unread 6 Feb 2008, 14:50   #22
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

Just outgoing.
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Unread 6 Feb 2008, 18:02   #23
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu
It's all nice and fun to argue that galaxys should work together, or that spys are a part of the game and that it's the gal that should be looking our for them, but neither applies to the subject of this discussion.

This is to do with planets which are not participating or otherwise unwanted within the galaxy. This is to do with planets who will be exiled as soon as possible. This is to do with the fact that the galaxy has no way of protecting itself from the spy while waiting for him to be exileable. It's not about the player working together with the gal, gaining their trust and covertly spying on them. This is no-skill spying which there's no countermeasure for. Arguing that this should not be fixed is simply absurd.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Just outgoing.
at least a few people get the point i made this thread for (didn't wanna quote everybody).
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Unread 6 Feb 2008, 18:25   #24
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

Reason behind it is Zaejii is a distwhore and doesnt like haveing a CT or ND in the same gal as him that can give status reports on defence. Quiet a selfish reason tbh, if you dont want the person to spy on your gal just exile them.
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Unread 6 Feb 2008, 18:45   #25
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

Quote:
Originally Posted by [DDK]gm
Reason behind it is Zaejii is a distwhore and doesnt like haveing a CT or ND in the same gal as him that can give status reports on defence. Quiet a selfish reason tbh, if you dont want the person to spy on your gal just exile them.
a) there's a 48 hour period you have to wait
b) every other one of the countless reasons stated above that you just tried to ad hominem your way out of
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Unread 6 Feb 2008, 19:01   #26
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

Quote:
Originally Posted by [DDK]gm
Reason behind it is Zaejii is a distwhore and doesnt like haveing a CT or ND in the same gal as him that can give status reports on defence. Quiet a selfish reason tbh, if you dont want the person to spy on your gal just exile them.
i'm not worried about the CT and ND in my gal, they've been asked to give gal status and refuse to do it (which is pretty obvious from the 400k+ value thats been crashed at my planet alone).

this thread was created to deal with any new sign ups associated with any alliances that're going to be in the gal ~72 ticks until they can be exiled or other people that might still be exiling around just for the sole purpose of landing in a disting galaxy to paste galaxy status.

this wasn't a thread directed at my galaxy. it was a suggestion in general because, face it, if you people wanted to fight a war fair, you definitely wouldn't be using 150+ people against 60. its about having an option to prevent spying to get around dists to happen, as has been stated previously.
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Unread 6 Feb 2008, 20:19   #27
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

I'm in full favour of this. A jumpgate probe is the most vital part of any post-launch operation, and people build distorters to stop as many of these scans getting through as possible. You should have the choice to block somebody's gal status if they're not playing to the betterment of the galaxy.

PA is meant to encourage people to play together as a galaxy (it says so in the manual lol), not work against each other. And to be honest, if you're going to give out information on your galaxy then you really don't deserve to be part of it.

Don't envy the distwhore because you can't scan him. It's like the discussion about structure killers - it's there, why can't people use them without being morally unjust?
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Unread 6 Feb 2008, 21:01   #28
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

Might also point out that distwhores are sacrificing a LOT of income for beind unscannable. They are still as hampered if not more by HCT as the rest of us(they have a bigger need for early infra res and focus pop and gov on constr and security), and their income from the roids that they can mine is as much as 30% lower than a FC-planet. They are basicly gimping themselves for the value-race in order to give them this advantage. So let's not pretend it's all roses and happy fun-times, it's a trade-off and people need to start to realize this.
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Unread 7 Feb 2008, 12:24   #29
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaejii
a suggestion i would like to make is to allow 'trusted' to stay the way that it is, make 'wanted' only show incoming fleets, and change 'not wanted' to only allowing that person see their personal fleet status and nothing else.
I agree with your suggestion. Spies may be part of the game but they will have to work for it: gain the trust of their gal mates to do their dirty job...
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Unread 7 Feb 2008, 13:57   #30
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
a) there's a 48 hour period you have to wait
This is exactly why the ideas bad, from the minute someone joins a galaxy they are going to be treated as spies and arent going to be given the full opportunity to help. The ability to earn their trust (especially as you seemed to imply that sending defence is vital in earning trust with your previous post) is seriously hindered. And lets be honest here, a planet created to spy is a problem for each galaxy for 48hours, the people causing the real problem with spying are the ones who you trust but are handing every last piece of info over

And considering you all seem to think your gal mates are evil and eat babies what about the abuse this can cause. Whats to stop your GC (whos probally GC because he controls the buddypack) from blocking access for key people when their alliance raids the galaxy. We have all had situations where certain people in galaxy wont report incoming when its their alliance and you now make it so if these people are ministers they can totally screw the planets over by removing alliance defence
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Unread 7 Feb 2008, 14:46   #31
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
This is exactly why the ideas bad, from the minute someone joins a galaxy they are going to be treated as spies and arent going to be given the full opportunity to help. The ability to earn their trust (especially as you seemed to imply that sending defence is vital in earning trust with your previous post) is seriously hindered. And lets be honest here, a planet created to spy is a problem for each galaxy for 48hours, the people causing the real problem with spying are the ones who you trust but are handing every last piece of info over
the minute someone joins the galaxy huh? i don't know about you, but if someone paid joins my galaxy they are set as wanted for at least a day. if they don't show up on irc within that time, they are usually set as not wanted and exiled the next day (because they have basically showed that they have no intention of being useful in the galaxy). if they're unpaid, they are usually set as unwanted (just because of the chance to get exiled free from inactivity) but if they prove to be active and just aren't upgraded, we'll keep them and teach stuff about the game.

the point i think you aren't getting is that once you set someone 'not wanted' it isn't a done deal. if people are worried about them spying and incomings show from their alliance, then they could be set unwanted if the rest of the galaxy finds them a risk. after the incomings, however, odds are that they will be set back wanted. usually after a player earns a trusted tag and the galaxy is doing well with score, value, and cross defending, they will not give status out. this is probably due to most people in 'traditional' alliances getting most of their defense from the galaxy since 10% of the alliance usually receives 90% of the defense.

i think its pretty evident that most would like the option to prevent galaxy status from being leaked by new planets, soon to be exiled planets, or planets that haven't completely earned trust yet.
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Unread 7 Feb 2008, 15:21   #32
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
This is exactly why the ideas bad, from the minute someone joins a galaxy they are going to be treated as spies and arent going to be given the full opportunity to help. The ability to earn their trust (especially as you seemed to imply that sending defence is vital in earning trust with your previous post) is seriously hindered. And lets be honest here, a planet created to spy is a problem for each galaxy for 48hours, the people causing the real problem with spying are the ones who you trust but are handing every last piece of info over
You missed the point fairly widely there wakey. Nobody that I know of, and I know a fair few distwhores this round, has exiled inactive new planets for the security threat they pose. What people do worry about is the planets that are actually handing our gal statuses.

Quote:
And considering you all seem to think your gal mates are evil and eat babies what about the abuse this can cause. Whats to stop your GC (whos probally GC because he controls the buddypack) from blocking access for key people when their alliance raids the galaxy. We have all had situations where certain people in galaxy wont report incoming when its their alliance and you now make it so if these people are ministers they can totally screw the planets over by removing alliance defence
Clearly that galaxy is going to fail. The idea here is that we should promote the idea of a galaxy working together being good for PA. However you do not accomplish this by trying to force people to work together.
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Unread 7 Feb 2008, 17:09   #33
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

How about if being set to 'Not wanted' just means they can't see green fleets heading to a planet in their galaxy? They could still see incoming, and report it etc, as needed, but wouldn't be able to pass on the defence details to their alliance.
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Unread 7 Feb 2008, 18:31   #34
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaejii
the minute someone joins the galaxy huh? i don't know about you, but if someone paid joins my galaxy they are set as wanted for at least a day. if they don't show up on irc within that time, they are usually set as not wanted and exiled the next day (because they have basically showed that they have no intention of being useful in the galaxy). if they're unpaid, they are usually set as unwanted (just because of the chance to get exiled free from inactivity) but if they prove to be active and just aren't upgraded, we'll keep them and teach stuff about the game.

the point i think you aren't getting is that once you set someone 'not wanted' it isn't a done deal. if people are worried about them spying and incomings show from their alliance, then they could be set unwanted if the rest of the galaxy finds them a risk. after the incomings, however, odds are that they will be set back wanted. usually after a player earns a trusted tag and the galaxy is doing well with score, value, and cross defending, they will not give status out. this is probably due to most people in 'traditional' alliances getting most of their defense from the galaxy since 10% of the alliance usually receives 90% of the defense.

i think its pretty evident that most would like the option to prevent galaxy status from being leaked by new planets, soon to be exiled planets, or planets that haven't completely earned trust yet.
What an idiotic way of deciding when someones trust able. An account costs like £3 its hardly a life changing amount to pay if its getting the alliance an advantage and getting an account on IRC is hardly a challenge. And as most people will pay £10 for their credits theres almost always enough credits flying around to fulfil this purpose, i know at F-crew even after upgrading a number of members we have more than enough credits on offer from our members which if we wanted to spy like this we could fund some of our community who dont play anymore to do this.

And trust me if my galaxy were blocking me from seeing the gal status because they believed my alliance was attacking and that they felt id hand the gal status over that lack of trust shown in me would not make me want to help the galaxy one bit. In fact I'd be inclined to hand over every last piece of intel i had had access to to my alliance. Trust is a two way street and you will only get trust in galaxy if everyone's given the benefit of the doubt until there's clear evidence that someones done something wrong.

And its like you haven't played this game since it went p2p. For the majority of the player base its alliance before galaxy, even if they earn a trusted tag if their alliance needs the intel they will hand it over. I've been in galaxies in the past where we have agreed to keep alliance and galaxy separate and no sooner has that been agreed my info has popped up on their alliances arbiters. Its just something you have to come to terms with but under no circumstance should that make you treat everyone as a spy
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Unread 7 Feb 2008, 18:33   #35
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBerk
How about if being set to 'Not wanted' just means they can't see green fleets heading to a planet in their galaxy? They could still see incoming, and report it etc, as needed, but wouldn't be able to pass on the defence details to their alliance.
It helps a bit but your not going to send any defence ingal under that situation are you as you wont know where your ships would be useful
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Unread 7 Feb 2008, 18:39   #36
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
It helps a bit but your not going to send any defence ingal under that situation are you as you wont know where your ships would be useful
90% of the time you need to be on irc or otherwise in contact with your gal to know where your ships will be useful.
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Unread 7 Feb 2008, 18:47   #37
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

good work totaly missing/ignoring the point wakey.


Edit: and im rather sure Zaejii have no plans of making me unwanted Gm <3<3
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Unread 7 Feb 2008, 18:59   #38
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
What an idiotic way of deciding when someones trust able.
where in my post did i say anything about how you would decide to trust someone? oh right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaejii
i think its pretty evident that most would like the option to prevent galaxy status from being leaked by new planets, soon to be exiled planets, or planets that haven't completely earned trust yet.
nope, that still wasn't it. hm..

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
An account costs like £3 its hardly a life changing amount to pay if its getting the alliance an advantage and getting an account on IRC is hardly a challenge. And as most people will pay £10 for their credits theres almost always enough credits flying around to fulfil this purpose, i know at F-crew even after upgrading a number of members we have more than enough credits on offer from our members which if we wanted to spy like this we could fund some of our community who dont play anymore to do this.
not every alliance upgrades their members, and certainly you can't expect a planet created (possibly by a friend of someone that plays) to be upgraded if its only purpose is going to be used spying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
And trust me if my galaxy were blocking me from seeing the gal status because they believed my alliance was attacking and that they felt id hand the gal status over that lack of trust shown in me would not make me want to help the galaxy one bit. In fact I'd be inclined to hand over every last piece of intel i had had access to to my alliance. Trust is a two way street and you will only get trust in galaxy if everyone's given the benefit of the doubt until there's clear evidence that someones done something wrong.
again, like JBG and countless others have said, you're forced to trust them in the current system - which you can't always do. you get 'trusted' status and the ability to see def channels / alliances / whatever people usually put in trusted tags by gaining trust, but this thread isn't about people you trust - its about those you don't trust that have no intention of playing with the galaxy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
And its like you haven't played this game since it went p2p. For the majority of the player base its alliance before galaxy, even if they earn a trusted tag if their alliance needs the intel they will hand it over. I've been in galaxies in the past where we have agreed to keep alliance and galaxy separate and no sooner has that been agreed my info has popped up on their alliances arbiters. Its just something you have to come to terms with but under no circumstance should that make you treat everyone as a spy
most of my last few rounds have all been galaxy before alliance. i even finished in the #1 galaxy one round due to galaxy defense coverage with a small supplement of alliance defense fleets. as stated earlier, if you plan on having a top planet or galaxy, you rely more on your galaxy than alliance because in 'traditional' alliances 10% of the ally receives 90% of the defense.

if you would really like to resort to personal attacks, i'd prefer that you just pm'd them to me (especially considering that you're a moderator after all) instead of posting false attacks on here and cluttering up the thread. many have posted in favour of this idea in one way or another, and i doubt Appocomaster or the other developers will even consider changing it if the thread is full of nothing but flames and personal attacks.

to repeat the original post and get things on better track,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaejii
a suggestion i would like to make is to allow 'trusted' to stay the way that it is, make 'wanted' only show incoming fleets, and change 'not wanted' to only allowing that person see their personal fleet status and nothing else.
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Unread 8 Feb 2008, 00:14   #39
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaejii
where in my post did i say anything about how you would decide to trust someone? oh right.

nope, that still wasn't it. hm..
Where in my post did I say anything about how I would decide. I simply pointed out how limited YOUR guidelines for deciding which new people would be given wanted status and who wasn't granted it and how such guidelines that you and your galaxy currently employ don't solve the problem your talking about EVEN with such a change.

And you were holding your galaxy up as the norm when I stated that "surely all new planets would be put on not wanted till the proved themselves and proving themselves then gets much harder

Quote:
not every alliance upgrades their members, and certainly you can't expect a planet created (possibly by a friend of someone that plays) to be upgraded if its only purpose is going to be used spying.
I didnt say they did, or that people could be expected to I simply stated that its hardly a significant outlay for an alliance or someone wanting to help their alliance to get paid status and its not requiring much for a person to keep an account to an irc activity level to be wanted and see the information you want the ability to hide from spys

Quote:
again, like JBG and countless others have said, you're forced to trust them in the current system - which you can't always do. you get 'trusted' status and the ability to see def channels / alliances / whatever people usually put in trusted tags by gaining trust, but this thread isn't about people you trust - its about those you don't trust that have no intention of playing with the galaxy.
How can you know if you someones untrustworthy in 48hours. After 48hours there's no reason for this proposed option as you have the ability to remove their spying ability. When you have this ability already why should you be able to then on a whim be able to exclude people from gal status access. Its an unnecessary feature that really does very little to remove the spying issue and just throws in a number of areas for alliances to further impose their grip on the galaxy system, a systems thats supposed to be free of alliance politics

And the likes of JBG need to remember their argument as to how fake nicking was killing the game. To paraphrase these people "You cant trust someone who doesnt trust you enough to give their real name. And without the mutual trust a galaxy cant work". And this is the issue with your idea, its not helping strength the galaxy system because what its doing is breaking down the fundamental basis of a successful galaxy. Your creating a system of mistrust where if your not well known, are in a rival alliance of your GC, are unpaid and such like your going to be treated as a problem from the off until they prove themselves worthy. Something that the negative environment doesn't promote as why should you help your galaxy who doesn't trust when you could be helping your alliance who is showing trust in you.

Quote:
most of my last few rounds have all been galaxy before alliance. i even finished in the #1 galaxy one round due to galaxy defense coverage with a small supplement of alliance defense fleets. as stated earlier, if you plan on having a top planet or galaxy, you rely more on your galaxy than alliance because in 'traditional' alliances 10% of the ally receives 90% of the defense.

if you would really like to resort to personal attacks, i'd prefer that you just pm'd them to me (especially considering that you're a moderator after all) instead of posting false attacks on here and cluttering up the thread. many have posted in favour of this idea in one way or another, and i doubt Appocomaster or the other developers will even consider changing it if the thread is full of nothing but flames and personal attacks.

to repeat the original post and get things on better track,
Firstly theres not a personal attack in there. I didnt call you fat, ugly and such like did I. The only part I can think you could even consider a personal attack from the quoted part is "And its like you haven't played this game since it went p2p" which is far from a personal attack rather an observation to how blinkered your view is. There are a few galaxies where it feels like there's total trust and that sense helps everyone perform a a cohesive unit but even the best galaxies where the charade is believable you can count on the fact that most peoples alligance is first with their alliance and the mates in that alliance that they may very well have played with for rounds and will probably play with for many future rounds. It may be something as seemingly insignificant as handing over the irc nicks/defence channels of all the galaxy to their alliance but the minute they hand even that over they are putting their alliance first and i'm sure many of the people we trust ingalaxy not only hand that over but also hand over who defends you or hands over the full gal status to save on jpgs or even go as far as not defending you if certain alliances are attacking. The top galaxies do well because while they deep down know the people they are trusting are screwing them over they are able to tell themselves that they aren't which allows them to to work together and as such we need am 'innocent till proven guilty" system which makes the charade easier to buy than a "guilty till innocent" system that makes it harder to swallow
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Unread 8 Feb 2008, 01:44   #40
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxman
good work totaly missing/ignoring the point wakey.

Edit: and im rather sure Zaejii have no plans of making me unwanted Gm <3<3
you must have completely missed this Wakey, since you keep making references to how my galaxy is run. never once have i made the statement of making this suggestion because of my current galaxy situation. its a suggestion to prevent people from getting around the game mechanics that would potentially render distorters (a legit game component) useless. if people in f-crew play alliance > galaxy, i'm fine with that, but a pretty decent majority (as i've said multiple times) play galaxy > alliance for many reasons including defense not to mention that some alliances don't attack non-hostile galaxies if there is an alliance member in that galaxy.

also, all the ministers can change status. in my galaxy we've all been ministers at one point or another, which is a result to building trust. so, your comment about the GC being in another alliance is completely irrelevant since other people can change gal status and typically the ministers are changed around pretty often for exiles, etc.
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Unread 8 Feb 2008, 01:50   #41
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
And the likes of JBG need to remember their argument as to how fake nicking was killing the game. To paraphrase these people "You cant trust someone who doesnt trust you enough to give their real name. And without the mutual trust a galaxy cant work". And this is the issue with your idea, its not helping strength the galaxy system because what its doing is breaking down the fundamental basis of a successful galaxy. Your creating a system of mistrust where if your not well known, are in a rival alliance of your GC, are unpaid and such like your going to be treated as a problem from the off until they prove themselves worthy. Something that the negative environment doesn't promote as why should you help your galaxy who doesn't trust when you could be helping your alliance who is showing trust in you.
You have a really bizzare view of this wakey. Nobody's talking about random newbies, who, let's face it, are quickly exiled anyways. People are talking about the proven spies/people who hand out ingal status.
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Unread 8 Feb 2008, 02:59   #42
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaejii
you must have completely missed this Wakey, since you keep making references to how my galaxy is run. never once have i made the statement of making this suggestion because of my current galaxy situation.
Your the one who brought YOUR GALAXY up to try and discredit my points. I know you like the idea you have proposed and want it added but when you sit there claiming that people posting a different view are flaming you and going off topic you just look desperate.

Quote:
its a suggestion to prevent people from getting around the game mechanics that would potentially render distorters (a legit game component) useless.
I know what your point is. The idea is still a badly thought out one that that already has a solution ingame thats maybe not 100% perfect but works with alot less possibility of abuse than your idea

Quote:
if people in f-crew play alliance > galaxy, i'm fine with that, but a pretty decent majority (as i've said multiple times) play galaxy > alliance for many reasons including defense not to mention that some alliances don't attack non-hostile galaxies if there is an alliance member in that galaxy.
Stop being so blinked. The majority haven't played galaxy first for a long time (we are talking like r2) . If everyone was to be questioned and answered truthfully you wouldnt find a galaxy in the game where over half the members hadnt handed the 'panic list' from overview to their alliance

Quote:
also, all the ministers can change status. in my galaxy we've all been ministers at one point or another, which is a result to building trust. so, your comment about the GC being in another alliance is completely irrelevant since other people can change gal status and typically the ministers are changed around pretty often for exiles, etc.
Firstly can i say make up your mind, you claimed you dont keep bringing your galaxy up and then in the same post bring it up again. You keep mentioning your galaxies and your situation almost as much as Rudy Giuliani mentions 9/11

Anyway Ive had a GC who this round from the off appointed his buddy pack as his ministers and then when a place came up for him in the top galaxy set an exile vote up for himself which they instantly agreed to so he would have to pay for 1 less exile to get there (he did it i 2 moves so he paid for 1 and got 1 free) so its hardly as if having the ministers being able to decide is a foolproof system. The GC when appointed can appoint anyone he likes and change it as often as he likes so if he wants to blackout the other alliances in the galaxy he only has to persuade his nearest supporters
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Unread 8 Feb 2008, 03:16   #43
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
You have a really bizzare view of this wakey. Nobody's talking about random newbies, who, let's face it, are quickly exiled anyways. People are talking about the proven spies/people who hand out ingal status.
I know the intention isnt for 'random newbies" but rather the proven spies BUT ideas arent only about the intention. Its also about the potential use and abuse and as this idea is one aimed soley at planets that cant yet be exiled, and because you will rarely know which new planets spying and which is a legit player then people who are paranoid about their dists being circumnavigated are going to throw any unknown player onto not wanted. All this for a player you can exile in 48tick (which btw isnt really enough time to be sure someones handing your gal status over as its only 2 raids)
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Unread 8 Feb 2008, 07:46   #44
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

most people throw planets into "not wanted" status until they prove useful as it is. this change would only take away their ability to spy on galaxy status or report incomings until they've earned a wanted or trusted status by proving themselves useful.
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Unread 8 Feb 2008, 10:34   #45
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBerk
How about if being set to 'Not wanted' just means they can't see green fleets heading to a planet in their galaxy? They could still see incoming, and report it etc, as needed, but wouldn't be able to pass on the defence details to their alliance.
I'm not in favour of that, as it would take away part of the incentive to make people not put people on not wanted.
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Unread 8 Feb 2008, 13:36   #46
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaejii
most people throw planets into "not wanted" status until they prove useful as it is. this change would only take away their ability to spy on galaxy status or report incomings until they've earned a wanted or trusted status by proving themselves useful.
It also takes away much of their ability to actually defend in galaxy and thus earn a wanted/trusted level. As i've said before trust is a two way thing and its something that needs both parties to show for it to work.

Lets take myself for example, i exile into your galaxy and i get stuck on not wanted as I haven't earnt your trust yet. Now due to work I can be online but not on IRC so the lack of Galaxy Status becomes an issue, I simply cant send defence as I don't know what it is. The only way I could send defence was if you mailed me ingame but then you have an interesting issue. The issue being in my eyes your a nobody, your name isn't well known to me, I don't think ive been in a galaxy with you or an alliance with you. So i'm left to send defence on blind faith, but you would have already destroyed the level of trust by the failure to show trust in me. So your now at a catch 22 situation because you cant trust me and I cant trust you. Now ofc in reality it would probally not be an issue for me, i'd imagine i've been around long enough and am well known enough that in most galaxies either the GC or Ministers would set me as wanted BUT alot of people arent in this situation.

I'll say it again, trust is a two way street and it needs to be offered unconditionally by both parties at first. Its something you should not have to gain but something to work to keep and you should only be punished when you do something lose the trust
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Unread 8 Feb 2008, 16:25   #47
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaejii
currently, being set as 'not wanted' or 'wanted' allows you to see incoming fleets. the only way to see outgoing fleets is to be set to 'trusted'.

a suggestion i would like to make is to allow 'trusted' to stay the way that it is, make 'wanted' only show incoming fleets, and change 'not wanted' to only allowing that person see their personal fleet status and nothing else.

if you need reasons for this i'll be happy to supply at least one or two, if you're incapable of figuring it out yourself.
agreed, I would sell my planet if the alliance asked for it
They are random people anyway who I dont care about.

I suppouse my bp will cover my offline times, expecting I have paid account. Rest are either spys or useless, when u want to restrict them from doing harm or then they choose to co-operate with you and you agree to ally them or invite them to your alliance.

I like this suggestion.
Private planets I would like even more
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Unread 8 Feb 2008, 19:10   #48
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
Lets take myself for example, i exile into your galaxy and i get stuck on not wanted as I haven't earnt your trust yet. Now due to work I can be online but not on IRC so the lack of Galaxy Status becomes an issue, I simply cant send defence as I don't know what it is. The only way I could send defence was if you mailed me ingame but then you have an interesting issue. The issue being in my eyes your a nobody, your name isn't well known to me, I don't think ive been in a galaxy with you or an alliance with you. So i'm left to send defence on blind faith, but you would have already destroyed the level of trust by the failure to show trust in me. So your now at a catch 22 situation because you cant trust me and I cant trust you. Now ofc in reality it would probally not be an issue for me, i'd imagine i've been around long enough and am well known enough that in most galaxies either the GC or Ministers would set me as wanted BUT alot of people arent in this situation.
first off, how you know me or not by sending me an in game mail? it will show my planet name and my ruler name, not my alliance nick. therefore you wouldn't know if you've been in a galaxy or alliance with me before - whether my name is well known or not. on tick 72 everyone (sans the bp) is in that same boat of not knowing anyone, having to get on irc to learn people, or having to be active in the forums to prove that they have the ability to be active and communicate. why shouldn't it be taken more seriously later in the round when the active players have more to lose? if a galaxy has every member with 100+ dists and a cov op / scanner / whatever planet lands into that galaxy allowing status to be leeched for 48 ticks, therefore putting to waste 100 constructions during that period of time, its an issue that should be able to be prevented.

perhaps what would better suit you (and everyone else for that matter) is to keep the announcement for everyone in galaxy of the X PLANETS IN YOUR GALAXY HAVE INCOMING FLEETS! while only showing them on the gal status to people with permissions. this would allow your 'not wanted' planets to mail the GC or Ministers or post on the forums offering defense. in this case, its no different from offering your ships to a DC in an alliance. you're putting blind faith / trust into someone and hoping that they won't take your fleet just to let it die. by doing so, you establish some kind of bond and can prove that you are willing to work with the galaxy (with or w/o IRC).

if you join into a well established galaxy, its your duty to show that you can be trusted, not the others that have no option other than to trust you due to the system thats currently in place.

the only way to prevent spying on this level is to implement something similar to this, make all galaxies private, or by some other idea that it doesn't seem anyone else has thought up at this time (including myself).
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Unread 8 Feb 2008, 21:05   #49
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Re: Politics -> Planet Status

P.S. Please leave your own incomings and outgoings visible at all times, thanks!
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