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Unread 12 Jul 2007, 06:03   #1
Forral
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Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

The longer I have played this round, the clearer it has become.

Large Alliances make PA impossible for anybody not able or willing to join them. If anything, the Alliance player limit should be at the very least halved.

I understand that bigger Alliances may have fun fighting each other, but they make this game inaccessible to newer or less hardcore players. There is no point in having a free round, attracting new players, if people are going to wave (and cov op) them and their Galaxies to death until there is nothing left to salvage.
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Unread 12 Jul 2007, 06:46   #2
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

I don't really see how the member limit causes the problems you bring up. Would 20 35 member alliances attack less planets per night than 10 70 member alliances? You could have no alliances and people are still going to wave you to death. At least some of the big alliances spend their time fighting each other and not pounding the most defenseless targets.

Additionally it isn't just members of large alliances who have covert ops.

I think the way that attack supremacy and covert ops makes this a very frustrating game for many new players is worth discussing and I dont see any harm in discussing a lower member limit, it might be interesting, but I think there are flaws in the particular arguments you employ.
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Unread 12 Jul 2007, 07:22   #3
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forral
The longer I have played this round, the clearer it has become.

I guess it's a matter of perspective. Definately, defending is being made ackwardly difficult in the current scheme of planetarion. It's not easy for the "best" alliances, so it's definately nigh impossible for the smaller ones. The two attack one defence approach (rightfully justified by the fact that especially early on to the round it's far more effective to just attack) makes it even harder and causes the universe to be swamped in incomings. There's little way to reduce the more active part of the universe throwing fleets around, hence the amount of incomings isn't going to decline, unless large alliances participate in wars between each other (the scheme really is like this: out of current #1 contenders, one, the second currently, is non-aggression pacted to #3 and #4, and isn't interested in winning the round which can be seen by their lack of interest to planet target #1: this respectively causes more pressure downwards, as technically #3 and #4 are safe, and those below get hit). Empirical evidence points out that during rounds when large alliances hit each other hard the members of lesser alliances do better (well, most of the top10 is 70 or near anyways, so let's just talk about "good" alliances).

As already mentioned, splitting 70 to 35 35 isn't going to reduce the incomings. Pre-PAX 6 tick defences in compared to 3 tick attacks would have "eased" defending to some extent, especially with multi-targetting. Now you need a suitable defence fleet for each tick by specific. The fact that defending is being made difficult through the statistics creator being refusing towards creating zero-loss defence ships for alliance use makes it "harder".

What could be done? It's hard to say. It's a real two edged sword. Reducing the role of alliances is unlikely to help, as people wish to cooperate and work in teams. Trying to enforce people into not working in teams creates a lot of friction and also causes people to quit the game (with loud protests). As reclutant as I am to say so, perhaps increasing the role of galaxies could balance it out a -little-.
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Unread 12 Jul 2007, 07:35   #4
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forral
I understand that bigger Alliances may have fun fighting each other, but they make this game inaccessible to newer or less hardcore players. There is no point in having a free round, attracting new players, if people are going to wave (and cov op) them and their Galaxies to death until there is nothing left to salvage.
Surely it's the alliance limit making the game inaccessible to new players, since they're prevented from joining worthwhile alliances?
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Unread 12 Jul 2007, 08:31   #5
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

I agree with Tietäjä on the point something should be done to ease defending. Extending a defending fleets battle ticks to two might work, but with the strong anti-system PA has adopted now that might actually lead to disaster. :-)

Though, forcing the size of alliance will not work. An alliance could easily spread into wings -- like we had before!

And as far as I can see, the only benefit from "tagging" up is the tag. The ingame forums, attack and defense tools are basicly just poor versions for those who doesn't have their own coders. We managed without easily in the early rounds. One could run an alliance with 70+ members now and not notice anything except lower average score or total score on the universe overview than what you really have.

One could start swapping players in and out to boost score if you really want aswell. ;-)

My point beeing, limiting alliances ingame is not an effective way, I think it's almost pointless.

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Unread 12 Jul 2007, 11:06   #6
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
Pre-PAX 6 tick defences in compared to 3 tick attacks would have "eased" defending to some extent, especially with multi-targetting. Now you need a suitable defence fleet for each tick by specific.
I'm not sure about this, given the current combat engine (ie, single targets) - if you have send anti FR against the first wave, and have it defend for 2/3/6 ticks, it will only be effective for any following ticks if more anti FR was sent. But if the second (for example) attacking fleet was DE, then not only is the anti FR not going to kill the DE fleet, but the attacking DE fleet could still kill the anti FR; thus, there is incentive to only defend for the single tick and recall (rewarding the active?) unless in the specific case of two of the same class inbound - and even then, it might not be very healthy for the defenders (eg, Xan FR followed by Zik FR with Harpies defending, or whatever).


That aside, what K-W said was on the mark, imo.
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Unread 12 Jul 2007, 11:35   #7
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

Before I have been an avid supporter of lower alliancelimits, sadly the game lacks active players who are willing to become officers so there is no new alliances being made, ergo, the alliance limit should stay at around the current level.
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Unread 12 Jul 2007, 11:36   #8
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forral
Large Alliances make PA impossible for anybody not able or willing to join them.
This is the fundament of your post.
I would like to ask you if you cared to elaborate that statement. Why do you think so?
And why would lowering the alliance limit help in any shape or form.
You just made two unreasoned statements as it is now.
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Unread 12 Jul 2007, 15:48   #9
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

As Tietäjä has already stated, the current situation is that the major alliances all nap each other and wave everything else to death.
It's clear that it isn't very funny for the players to loose nearly all their roids once or twice a week.
I think that's the reason why Forral created this thread.


The big question is why the major alliances do that instead of fighting each other?

In my opinion there a two reasons for that.
1) Napping each other and raid "noobs" promises a higher score than a war and nowadays alliances are measured by their scores.

2) To fight a war you need alot of dedicated officers.
DCs are the major problem here. Good DCs who can handle 10 defcalls (or more) at the same time without mixing them up or even forget one of them are rare. Getting a 24/7 availability of them is next to impossible for most alliances nowadays. I would guess that the major alliances have less than 15 ppl who are able and willing to do that, and 15 (most of them are from europe so they might be available at similar times) are clearly not enought for a 24/7 availability.

There has to be found a way to counter these 2 problems.
Decreasing the member limit as Forral suggested would be counterproductive for the second problem and it wouldn't help with the first either. 10 alliances waving 2 gals each or 20 alliances waving 1 gal each won't make a difference. It might even lead to more double booking.

So my ideas to counter this problems (well they aren't realy my ideas as they have been stated before by others).

Remove Alliance Rankings.
Planetarion is a Wargame. So let the community deside who has fought better. Just like the way it was in the old days.

Increase the alliance limit to atleast 150 or remove the limit completly.

I think this would lead to more interresting rounds for the players of the bigger alliances and other players could live in "peace" without loosing all their roids once or twice a week.
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Unread 12 Jul 2007, 16:46   #10
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Before I have been an avid supporter of lower alliancelimits, sadly the game lacks active players who are willing to become officers so there is no new alliances being made, ergo, the alliance limit should stay at around the current level.
Yeah man, stagnation is the future. I mean, the game is perfect, right? Let's not change a thing!
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Unread 12 Jul 2007, 16:57   #11
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
isn't interested in winning the round which can be seen by their lack of interest to planet target #1
What?

CT was planet targetted for around a week i think (notice Jenova's roids suddenly take a steady nose dive), and in return Jenova were targetted quite heavy by 3 other alliances including CT.

The feeling at this point in time is that if Jenova continued to solely planet target CT by itself it would actually ineffect rule Jenova out of the race for #1 in the long run. As you can see from sandmans there are effectively 5 alliances that I reckon have a shot at possibly winning, if these alliances realise this we could have an interesting and close round in the making.
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Unread 12 Jul 2007, 17:19   #12
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

I think crap alliances unwilling to anything more than random raids does more to ruin PA than anything else.

What happened to destroying the competition ?
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Unread 12 Jul 2007, 18:34   #13
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

Quote:
Originally Posted by Game^
What?

CT was planet targetted for around a week i think (notice Jenova's roids suddenly take a steady nose dive), and in return Jenova were targetted quite heavy by 3 other alliances including CT.
Oh. I've been misinformed about Ct being targetted, then. It's just those Jenova members who have trouble locating your planet targettings.

Thanks for updating me!
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Unread 12 Jul 2007, 19:33   #14
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
Oh. I've been misinformed about Ct being targetted, then. It's just those Jenova members who have trouble locating your planet targettings.

Thanks for updating me!
Strange, the BC's dont seem to have much trouble adding the defence and attack points, defence points especially
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Unread 12 Jul 2007, 19:38   #15
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

what about letting new players be placed at random in good alliainces from when they sign up?all alliances ending last round whit 60+ members and above avarage score whould have the chance to say yes to new players when they signed up.those players whould be placed at random at tick 1.they whould be an addition to the alliance limit of 70 but gain score to their alliance so the bigger alliances have to help them play the game.i think many alliances whould try to do their best to help new players then.if they are willing to cheat i thinkthey are willing to help.
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Unread 12 Jul 2007, 21:33   #16
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Yeah man, stagnation is the future. I mean, the game is perfect, right? Let's not change a thing!
That was a rather senseless comment coming from you, im suprised.

Later rounds have shown that it is the changes that creates the biggest uproars in the game, and make most people leave. I would prefer a game that didnt change as much as PA does because it gives a certain level of expectance as to what the game is when you sign up after being away for a while.
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Unread 12 Jul 2007, 22:55   #17
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

I can accept that many people have left for many reasons, changes included. That said, if the game is to grow it has to be appealing to new blood, find a new angle, new appeal, new ideas, etc.

Of course maybe this is too much to hope for and we should settle for what we have. I think in hindsight perhaps I read too much into your comment, my apologies if I came across as senseless. At the very least though I would like to see a fair set of rules published and a Multihunter team free of bias. Can we at agree on that perhaps?
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Unread 12 Jul 2007, 23:12   #18
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

Personally one of the things that really attracted me to this game years ago was the simplicity; a lot of the changes and additions have made the game significantly less appealing to me. Which isn't to say I am against all changes, I have suggested my fair share during the course of PA, but change for the sake of change is not a good thing.

I certainly do not think we should settle for what we have, but making the game better doesn't necessarily mean adding new things. It could mean bringing back old things, or tweaking the things we have to make them better. The game will grow when new players have fun playing, pure novelty wont produce fun, a well designed game could.
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Unread 12 Jul 2007, 23:22   #19
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-W
Personally one of the things that really attracted me to this game years ago was the simplicity; a lot of the changes and additions have made the game significantly less appealing to me. Which isn't to say I am against all changes, I have suggested my fair share during the course of PA, but change for the sake of change is not a good thing.
Hear hear!
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Unread 13 Jul 2007, 00:17   #20
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-W
Personally one of the things that really attracted me to this game years ago was the simplicity; a lot of the changes and additions have made the game significantly less appealing to me. Which isn't to say I am against all changes, I have suggested my fair share during the course of PA, but change for the sake of change is not a good thing.

I certainly do not think we should settle for what we have, but making the game better doesn't necessarily mean adding new things. It could mean bringing back old things, or tweaking the things we have to make them better. The game will grow when new players have fun playing, pure novelty wont produce fun, a well designed game could.
I am in total agreement.

The PA developers need to realise that adding 'new and exciting' features are not improving the game at all.

The codebase uptil say round 7 (or 8, cant remember) was pretty good so why don't they use that and remove the bugs instead of adding pointless stuff instead ?
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Unread 13 Jul 2007, 01:15   #21
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaio
I am in total agreement.

The PA developers need to realise that adding 'new and exciting' features are not improving the game at all.

The codebase uptil say round 7 (or 8, cant remember) was pretty good so why don't they use that and remove the bugs instead of adding pointless stuff instead ?
For starters, it doesn't exist anymore. Second, post-PAX Planetarion is by far superior for the current playerbase.


You're just way behind the times.
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Unread 13 Jul 2007, 02:39   #22
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

I think the current playerbase will be insulted by that.
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Unread 13 Jul 2007, 05:42   #23
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

Hes talking about player numbers (i hope)
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Unread 13 Jul 2007, 06:09   #24
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

I like PaX, but I do agree that some things are unneccessarily complex. And some features don't add anything meaningfull to the gameplay. I wonder how the comming changes to population in next round will make everthing more 'exciting'. I fear it won't add anything to the gameplay and will only make things more complex.
Back on topic: yes, large alliances are bad. That is why the support rule should be enforced to stop alliances from trying to circumvent the alliance limit. And I hope next round the limit will be slightly lower again.
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Unread 13 Jul 2007, 08:45   #25
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

I like pax more than i like pre pax, though i have to say i liked it more r10.5-14 than now. I think atm we have too much rules and other useless crap.

On topic: I am against lowering the alliance limits. The smaller you make them the more eletist the game gets and the harder it gets for a new player to work himself up the ranks into a decent alliance.
I also believe that the problem we've been having with support planets / alliances is an effect of lowering the amount of members in alliances, and I personally don't want to play in a game with 3 allies who each have 4-5 support alliances and lets not forget how hard it allready is for alot of alliances to find decent officers, if you lower the ally limit you might have more allies, but alot less good ones.

Personally i'd like to see the game return to a 100-member limit. Which was the best ally limit we've had in pax according to me. And when i say 100 members, I mean 100 members for all alliances, not top 5 can only have only have 90, extra recruits after that have to be x% of this and that, only 60 count, ...
Stop making things overcomplicated and start making things simpler.
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Unread 13 Jul 2007, 09:18   #26
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

Planet Naps have ruined the game. Active players rarely attack active players. Thus more focus is on people that barely play. These people get frustrated and quit.
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Unread 13 Jul 2007, 11:22   #27
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chika
Planet Naps have ruined the game. Active players rarely attack active players. Thus more focus is on people that barely play. These people get frustrated and quit.
Quitters ruined this game.
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Unread 13 Jul 2007, 11:32   #28
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

Id hate to see PA become even more simple then it allready is.

What i think would be good is to make it even more diverse, so that there is more different roles one can play within an alliance, and hence give room for more meaningfull participation in the alliances competition against each other.
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Unread 13 Jul 2007, 12:09   #29
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
Quitters ruined this game.
Saying quitters ruined the game is like saying that people that died from murder are responsible for a lower population.
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Unread 13 Jul 2007, 12:20   #30
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-
Id hate to see PA become even more simple then it allready is.

What i think would be good is to make it even more diverse, so that there is more different roles one can play within an alliance, and hence give room for more meaningfull participation in the alliances competition against each other.
The thing is, PA is only jacked up because there is hardly anyone playing. Its not too simple, its not to hard. Simply only a handful of people are putting any time in it. I have spent a grand total of about 3 hours logged in to PA all round. IF that. Well over half of the people playing are ranked lower than me. Whats worse, I have not mined over 200 roids until about a few days ago. Only landed like 3 attacks all round, only attacked a handful of times. Its simply the people playing aren't playing against each other, they are playing against people who barely play, thus these people stopping play entirely. Right now I am being hit by someone two times my value. I have 300 roids. This is how this guy is playing his round. Is that fun? Nope.
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Unread 13 Jul 2007, 13:41   #31
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
Surely it's the alliance limit making the game inaccessible to new players, since they're prevented from joining worthwhile alliances?
Yeah there were loads of new/lower level players taken on by top alliances Pre-PAX and when the Limits weren't really limits in the early PAX round. Oh no wait a minute no there wasn't what actually happened was the top alliances were pretty large but didn't take many chances on players, the other alliances had like 30/40 people and took chances on new players but for every new player they recruited they would generally lose one of their better players to a top alliance.

The game was pretty much in a constant catch 22 situation for the lower alliances, they were the only places willing to give new people a chance so were the people expected to help rejuvenate the community, for these people to have a chance to get into the game though they needed a strong support system around them, something which was almost impossible to put together as when people showed a certain level they were snatched up. The simple fact is alot of players Ambition is greater then their sense of loyalty and while its easy to say "who cares about a player with no loyalty" the bigger issue is that when alliances are like a revolving door during the round it makes even the most loyal people consider options as those situation dont allow an alliance to pull themselves out of the 'holding pattern'

The limits that are now in place have reduced the revolving door effect, it still happens as players still have ambition and alliances are always looking for good players but its largely reserved for end of round. Its also spread the quality alot more evenly, the top alliances still have the biggest share of quality but now its alot harder to earn your position in the top alliances so a good level of quality is present throughout.allowing alot more viable alliances to exist and giving the game many more decent entry points

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
As already mentioned, splitting 70 to 35 35 isn't going to reduce the incomings. Pre-PAX 6 tick defences in compared to 3 tick attacks would have "eased" defending to some extent, especially with multi-targetting. Now you need a suitable defence fleet for each tick by specific. The fact that defending is being made difficult through the statistics creator being refusing towards creating zero-loss defence ships for alliance use makes it "harder".
.
In many ways I would actually say defence is now somewhat easier for alliances lower down. Yes I know that's a slightly weird thing to say when it comes to a game where defence has on the whole become harder but hear me out. The biggest problem for defence lower down is the number of members online when the mass incoming comes in, always has been always will. Now with limited numbers able to defend and in a game where it was common to go out to overwhelm for multiple ticks it was alot harder to use peoples ships economically and you would run out of ships alot sooner. So while there's more incoming now due to prelaunch its actually easier to help out more individuals. The benefit of the change atleast lower down is simply being masked by prelaunch as it means more fleets are flying

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bedda0815

Remove Alliance Rankings.
Planetarion is a Wargame. So let the community deside who has fought better. Just like the way it was in the old days.
.
The problem as ive said before is that by letting the community decide who did well isn't very reliable. As I mentioned on the AD thread Re: Are these Alliances around anymore? throughout PA's history there's been alot of alliances that have been held in fairly high regard in a round but many haven't really earnt it, instead they rode on the coattails of others, often taken the role of puppet.

Also some alliances will never no matter what they do ever be judged fairly. For example I think if F-Crew and TGV would team up, do really well but wouldnt be judged fairly as me and Kargool are this communities piñatas.

And the biggest problem with all this is that peoples perceptions of how other alliances rounds went already play a big part in alliances retention and recruitment in future rounds. If theres no rankings then theres only what others say about you to allow people to make a decision and when its going to be mainly the vocal people 'deciding' who did good its always going to leave anyone who isnt involved with the top alliances wars out in the cold

Quote:
Increase the alliance limit to atleast 150 or remove the limit completly.

I think this would lead to more interresting rounds for the players of the bigger alliances and other players could live in "peace" without loosing all their roids once or twice a week
History suggests otherwise, larger alliances didn't have their members stop bashing the smaller people. Pre war breaking out the 'others' we good easy targets for roids without provoking the other side and during the wars the remaining players were good places to go and refill

Quote:
Main Topic
I don't think drastic cuts are th way to go, you would probally do more harm than good if we were to drop to 35 for example. 35 after all doesn't reduce incoming every one gets but just means that to cover all the roles activity needs to get even higher and its going to be the lower alliances this fall foul if its too low.

Theres a balance between, too small that very few stand much chance of operating that well and too large that it stiffles the game below the top 5 or so. This levels probably a little lower than what we currently have,but probably nothing below 50. And its certainly not something that should be done quickly the yoyoing of numbers over recent rounds has stopped alliances gettinga foothold and removed much motivation for putting the effortin.We need a plan of where the limit is going and then steady reduction over rounds to that figure so the new alliances have time to be ready for taking on the surpluss rather than just dumping it onthem
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Unread 13 Jul 2007, 13:52   #32
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

Interesting how the initiator never came back and explained his queer statement, yet specialists and experts still argue about.. 'what?'
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Unread 13 Jul 2007, 14:17   #33
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chika
Saying quitters ruined the game is like saying that people that died from murder are responsible for a lower population.
No, it's like saying people who died from suicide are responsible for a lower population.
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Unread 13 Jul 2007, 14:18   #34
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
Yeah there were loads of new/lower level players taken on by top alliances Pre-PAX and when the Limits weren't really limits in the early PAX round. Oh no wait a minute no there wasn't what actually happened was the top alliances were pretty large but didn't take many chances on players, the other alliances had like 30/40 people and took chances on new players but for every new player they recruited they would generally lose one of their better players to a top alliance.
Having never been in a top alliance, what do you base this on?
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Unread 13 Jul 2007, 15:55   #35
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-
Id hate to see PA become even more simple then it allready is.

What i think would be good is to make it even more diverse, so that there is more different roles one can play within an alliance, and hence give room for more meaningfull participation in the alliances competition against each other.
The game doesn't need more features it needs good features.

I don't mean to pick on you Red- and I appreciate that some people want novelty and an expanded game and in theory that is fine, but for most of its history Planetarion has expanded erratically with new features and changes for the sake of changes rather than trying to improve the fundamental game design.

Well planned new features added to a well crafted game give more room for meaningful play, poorly planned features added to an akwardly crafted game do not.
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Unread 13 Jul 2007, 16:19   #36
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
The problem as ive said before is that by letting the community decide who did well isn't very reliable. As I mentioned on the AD thread Re: Are these Alliances around anymore? throughout PA's history there's been alot of alliances that have been held in fairly high regard in a round but many haven't really earnt it, instead they rode on the coattails of others, often taken the role of puppet.

Also some alliances will never no matter what they do ever be judged fairly. For example I think if F-Crew and TGV would team up, do really well but wouldnt be judged fairly as me and Kargool are this communities piñatas.

And the biggest problem with all this is that peoples perceptions of how other alliances rounds went already play a big part in alliances retention and recruitment in future rounds. If theres no rankings then theres only what others say about you to allow people to make a decision and when its going to be mainly the vocal people 'deciding' who did good its always going to leave anyone who isnt involved with the top alliances wars out in the cold
You're right, without official alliance rankings there won't be a clear winner. There will always be debates and different points of view. On the other hand, all alliances which want to be in the "list of alliances which might have influeced the round" need to be noticed by the other alliances.
Going around and stealing all the roids of lesser active players on a daily basis, won't get you noticed. I also think that fighting a good war is fun nomatter how it turns out for your alliance.

So the price we would have to pay for a game with wars between the major alliances and a chance for the lesser active players to keep their roids longer than 2 days doesn't seem that big.

Well maybe that's only my personal biased point of view cause I never cared about the success of previous rounds when applying to an alliance. I applied because I thought there's a good community which i could join.

Additionally if there wouldn't be hard evidence of the rank of an alliance it might stop the the major alliances from recruiting from the "middle alliances" just a little bit as it wouldn't be that easy to tell which alliance is "better". The personality of recruit might have more importance.


Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
History suggests otherwise, larger alliances didn't have their members stop bashing the smaller people. Pre war breaking out the 'others' we good easy targets for roids without provoking the other side and during the wars the remaining players were good places to go and refill
I didn't want to intent that i think that an increased member limit would stop alliances from bashing smaller planets. I just think that an increased limit would stop these alliances from being frigthned of the thought that they could run out of human resources during the war. An increased limit will get alliances to the point where they would be able to fight a war. Making them want to fight a war is a different thing. That's why i suggested the drop of the alliance ranking.
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Unread 14 Jul 2007, 12:40   #37
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

The problem with Alliances is that its all about getting 70 people with the biggest fleets/biggest score/biggest roids/biggest XP.

You could amend that 70 to be 700 or 35, it don't matter.

What is the answer? Easy, you make Alliance numbers unlimited, BUT, the slot allocation has limits. Thus, alliances should be limited to, I don't know, I shall have to pick an arbitrary method and number here, for the sake of discussion.

25% of Alliance value - Big players
25% of alliance value - large-medium players
25% of alliance value - medium players
25% of alliance value - small players

It should be POSSIBLE that if alliances allocate the first 25%, then after that, numbers of members would be limited, but only people smaller than size X could join the alliance, and more members would mean towards the end of round, alliances would still be out there recruiting smaller players and noobs.

It would become actually important to take these players and spend time and effort on them as each one would in the end become important in the outcome of the game.

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Unread 14 Jul 2007, 12:55   #38
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

And how does such a setup help? As many ppl said already, an alliance in PA is (or should be) much more than just a tag where a fixed number of planets can be part of, it is a community. Community sizes shouldn't be limited, limiting those things can drive many players away (because they can't play with who they want to play). Not to mention that it doesn't really seem like a setup that would encourage any alliance to do well.

In general the size of a alliance / community will be self regulated. As they grow it becomes harder to please all those in it, causing them to split from the original group and form a group of their own and forming new communities (although for that to happen continiously there would probably have to be a steady flow of new/returning players).
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Unread 14 Jul 2007, 20:33   #39
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wandows
And how does such a setup help? As many ppl said already, an alliance in PA is (or should be) much more than just a tag where a fixed number of planets can be part of, it is a community. Community sizes shouldn't be limited, limiting those things can drive many players away (because they can't play with who they want to play). Not to mention that it doesn't really seem like a setup that would encourage any alliance to do well.

In general the size of a alliance / community will be self regulated. As they grow it becomes harder to please all those in it, causing them to split from the original group and form a group of their own and forming new communities (although for that to happen continiously there would probably have to be a steady flow of new/returning players).
You are wrong. Communities come in shapes and sizes. Communities shape themselves. You seem to mixup communities and alliances. Alliance tags are designed to keep the game fun. For you it's apparantly one and the same. It's not.
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Unread 14 Jul 2007, 21:05   #40
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

So, in your opinion, does that mean one community can have multiple tags ingame?
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Unread 14 Jul 2007, 23:10   #41
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

Microeconomics!

A smaller number of alliance slots, ie a reduced supply will drive up the price of those slots. Only the most valuable players will be accepted. It's harder to build up an alliance of 70 purely leet players, much easier to get 35. Will further exclude newer players from getting a chance in a better alliance. But there is the possibility that lots of smaller alliances could make things more interesting; I just wonder if there's enough incentive for good players to provide these alliances, rather than just join an already existant one.
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Unread 14 Jul 2007, 23:49   #42
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
I just wonder if there's enough incentive for good players to provide these alliances, rather than just join an already existant one.
Unlikely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
Yeah there were loads of new/lower level players taken on by top alliances Pre-PAX and when the Limits weren't really limits in the early PAX round. Oh no wait a minute no there wasn't what actually happened was the top alliances were pretty large but didn't take many chances on players, the other alliances had like 30/40 people and took chances on new players but for every new player they recruited they would generally lose one of their better players to a top alliance.
This is wrong. There were plenty of "lesser" alliances (talking about r5-r6 here) with over 100-120 members that I can recall. Membership among lower ranked alliances wasn't exclusive back then, and people were in like ten alliances at a time, including many players of top tier alliances which joined to leech defense, but that's how it worked at the time. Not to mention that people accross the universe were spammed with recruitment mails from mass-recruitment alliances on daily basis.

So there was plenty of material to work with to make a decent alliance. And it's only natural that an alliance which lacks ambition and perspective will lose its best players to better alliances.
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Unread 15 Jul 2007, 03:08   #43
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
And it's only natural that an alliance which lacks ambition and perspective will lose its best players to better alliances.
This is fact. People want to be involved in the top level of the game, at least in some small part. F-Crew, despite offering many other things, will never (or at least have never) offered this.
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Unread 15 Jul 2007, 04:09   #44
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerbie2
You are wrong. Communities come in shapes and sizes. Communities shape themselves. You seem to mixup communities and alliances. Alliance tags are designed to keep the game fun. For you it's apparantly one and the same. It's not.
I never knew alliance tags were created to keep the game fun. I don't think PA ever had problems being fun without the ingame tags (i actually think it was more fun back then as there weren't any silly restrictions). Communities is where most ppl find their place in PA, and currently those are limited to a certain alliance/tag (yes i know there are exceptions here, but the main stream evolves around the alliances/ingame tags). In the game communities are limited by the alliance tag size: if they have more members/friends in their community than the tag allows they have a problem thanks to that wonderfull support planet rule. And this is where the problem is in this case, you can be with a certain community all you want, but due to game restrictions its very well possible you can't interact with them through the game, which defeats the point of being in that community (at game level at least). No limits here would allow communities to grow freely without those restrictions, as whoever joins them could be an asset.
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Unread 15 Jul 2007, 08:44   #45
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
And it's only natural that an alliance which lacks ambition and perspective will lose its best players to better alliances.
This is fact. People want to be involved in the top level of the game, at least in some small part. F-Crew, despite offering many other things, will never (or at least have never) offered this.
I didn't say that

(It does sound like something I'd say though, so I did waste 5 minutes trying to find out where I did say that before realizing it was Talin in the post above yours. It is indeed a fact.)
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Unread 15 Jul 2007, 11:09   #46
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
So, in your opinion, does that mean one community can have multiple tags ingame?
No that means that communities cannot have tags. Members belonging to a community can have a tag. Communities are not easy to define. Communities are not restricted per se to the people who happen to be inside a tag or alliance. And sometimes people can be inside a tag without participating in the community.
I'm a TFD community member. I'm not inside the TFD tag.
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Unread 15 Jul 2007, 11:43   #47
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerbie2
No that means that communities cannot have tags. Members belonging to a community can have a tag. Communities are not easy to define. Communities are not restricted per se to the people who happen to be inside a tag or alliance. And sometimes people can be inside a tag without participating in the community.
I'm a TFD community member. I'm not inside the TFD tag.
I'm an Ascendancy community member. I'm not inside the Ascendancy tag.
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Unread 15 Jul 2007, 11:58   #48
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

<------- Returning Player, 2 days out of protection

.2 cents
VVVVVV

The changes made to planetarion have not made the game complex do not kid yourselves. The game may be more complex relative to b4, but the changes have not resulted in a complex game.

I for one find the changes have made the game 1 hundred squillion times better than the last time i played (the round just b4 xmas 2006). Gj pa team I hope your ambition to evolve this game remains undiminished by the '1337's' who are too busy reminiscing about the past to see past the end of their own noses.

As to alliances - Everybody can agree that to be successful, you need to be active. To be active on PA you have to (or have been forced to ) sacrifice your responsibilites as a human being to be successful in the things in life that count. Due to this, and again do not kid yourselves here for I do not suffer fools gladly, the people who can provide the activity this game needs, are failing / have failed to find success in the real world. Humans are entirely predictable creatures and we all have the desire and fire to be recognised and respected so thus, its only natural that the communities that form of active cores will need a recognised and respected rank over and above the need for fun in the game. You find your fun in the community and the prestige you cannot gain from life within the game.

No amount of tweaking of any of the games features or systems will change the simple fact that the active players you require to run a game all need to be seen to be successful to fulfill their subconscious egotistical desires. The new guys will allways get raped, the big planets will always seek out planet naps, and the big alliances will always be SCARED to duke it out mano a mano.

Due to this, the expanded features are required to maintain the little guys interest. PA was a mind numbingly boring game without the changes that have been made, and to a large extent it still is. Hopefully further changes pa team have in the pipeline will go some way to eradicate the fundamental problems of maintaining interest for the duration of a round (and hopefully several rounds)

Once more do not be clowned, those who have stuck with pa stick here for the community not the game. It is the game itself which needs to be upgraded and made more interesting over and above:-

find target
get scan
launch
defend if needed


Disclaimer:-

I am not here to be your friend and I am not here to brown nose you. I will point out and debate the core of a discussion even if they offend you or your self idolised views of yourself as a person so feel free to attack me if you feel I have included or summed you up as a person and that view differs from the persona you try to project over the internet to cover up your own failings and insecurities. Defend yourself if you feel you must, but I will only respond to logical and well thought out comments relevant to the topic so how much of your own time you want to waste arguing how great you truly are is up to you. I have not posted any of my views to flame. It is simple truth and sometimes truth offends.
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Unread 15 Jul 2007, 12:26   #49
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkHeart
As to alliances - Everybody can agree that to be successful, you need to be active.

I was reading you post with interest until that line. Inaccurate.
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Unread 15 Jul 2007, 12:51   #50
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Re: Large Alliances ruin PA for everybody else

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester (actually this time)
I didn't say that
I honestly couldn't tell you why I thought you did, it's all a golden* haze.

*drunken
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