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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 17:40   #151
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thex
Therefore you are consigining small alliances/unallied to ONLY play for XP. Many of these will be unskilled, new players and be unable to get decent XP attacks running.

Yes they can play for XP - but they won't be high up on the Planet rank and many will find as soon as they get a decent fleet it gets stolen.
I think pretty much everyone here is playing up the significance of Zik under this system (especially if they aren't so stat strong). I would still not want > half of my alliance as Zik and preferibly fewer. For me personally planet wise, Zik still doesn't appeal.

The top alliances* have always played for value. The fact that the rank system will reflect this directly and not indirectly is irrelevant. There is no greater incentive to steal the fleets of poor inexperienced people, or indeed anyone, than there ever was. AND I think you'll find that the great majority of organised fleet catches are made against members of a warring alliance, and not just against anybody who attacks your alliance. Of course there will be exceptions, but to devote 10-20 fleets to take the fleet of one medium sized member of an alliance you are not at war with is pretty much a waste of time.

*except Ascendancy (again!)
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 17:42   #152
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrow|Pony
That's sort of contradictory - seeing as they don't need roids, they aren't able to quickly rebuild.
My point was that they don't need, nor want, to build very much. I crashed my entire fleet 4-5 times last round on purpose and built back up from 0, sometimes with very few roids. It did not reduce my success at landing.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 17:46   #153
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcChas
It's difficult to see how players will be able to reconcile their individual goals with those of their alliance. Individual rank being measured by score and alliance rank by value means that one of them must be sacrificed (except, as has already been mentioned, for Ziks).

Higher up the "food chain" it could get even more complicated. Will the alliances who are "genuine contenders" for the number one spot have to insist that all their players go for value. Or will they nominate a few specific players (or even just one) to go for XP to have a better chance of getting the number one planet as well?
I'm sorry, I really don't see a genuine conflict of interests here, for reasons mentioned above, and I won't repeat myself.

If your alliance wants to go for the win, everyone (possibly bar scanners) should play for value. And unless they completely **** up the XP formulae, a value planet will win. For a top alliance, there will be no conflict.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 18:06   #154
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
- Clusters get -2 defence eta advantage
- Clusters get -1 attack eta advantage
Don't know what to make of the cluster eta's either it will add another dimension to the game or be one of those annoying nuisances.

Quote:
- Alliance rankings is now in terms of value. The alliance ranking page and alliance dumps will be updated to reflect this.
Who's bright idea was this? Making alliances rank by value is plain daft, all its gonna mean is their will be alot more ziks in allys.

Quote:
- Alliances are a maximum size of 60 members up to tick 168 (1 week in), then they're allowed to accept up to 10 members that are below half their alliance's average value
Alliance limit should of been 50 not 60, why recruit 10 half decent planets after 1 week?

Tbh I don't know what to make of the changes these are certainly big changes and yet AGAIN appears PA Team decided to make the changes without consultation, not one of them has posted in this thread which is bad practice.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 19:04   #155
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furyous
I'm sorry, I really don't see a genuine conflict of interests here, for reasons mentioned above, and I won't repeat myself.

If your alliance wants to go for the win, everyone (possibly bar scanners) should play for value. And unless they completely **** up the XP formulae, a value planet will win. For a top alliance, there will be no conflict.
You may well be right for a "top alliance" but you must just be too far removed from the "average" player and alliance to see what I'm trying to get at here. To break it down into its component parts......

1/ It doesn't matter whether my alliance wants to go for the win - it isn't going to happen. That doesn't mean that it shouldn't aim for as high a rank as possible - therefore it needs value.

2/ It doesn't matter whether I personally want to win the round - that isn't going to happen either. That doesn't mean that I shouldn't aim for as high a rank as possible - therefore I need score.

3/ Along with most "active but not hardcore" players who aren't in a "top alliance", I will achieve a much higher score by playing for XP than for value - therefore there is a conflict of interests between me and my alliance.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 19:21   #156
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Re: Round 20 Changes

I agree with Sjor - please make roids either 500-1000 value!
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 19:39   #157
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Re: Round 20 Changes

I'm going to comment on a couple of points raised:

1) Some people have complained about a lack of PATeam responses in this thread. However there have been several responses from JBG and Squishy and JBG at leats was very active in the debate about the announced changes.

2) Some people have sugegsted that Zik will now be very strong and even more important in alliance wars. Currently a lot of work is being done to the combat engine, so don't think that stats etc are necessaily as limited as they have been in previous rounds. I'd like to emphaises the first sentence of the last paragraph of the announcement - "More changes will be announced before signups open early next year." Don't judge next round until all of the changes are known.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 19:59   #158
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
Don't judge next round until all of the changes are known.
The ones you already anounced are crap. Can it be worse than this? Letīs see.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 20:04   #159
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by rain
The ones you already anounced are crap. Can it be worse than this? Letīs see.
From reading this thread I don't believe there is a community consensus on the announced changes. Some people like some changes and hate others, some hate them all, some like them all. This is the response we largly expected.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 20:08   #160
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
However there have been several responses from JBG and Squishy
Oh good, a forums mod and a multi-hunter -apologies if you guys are actually PA team reps.

Also, why announce these changes before they are all known? Given that there is a big uproar at these current changes what makes you think the rest of them won't make that even worse? It won't necessarily cancel it out, you need to ask the community BEFORE and not AFTER you change it.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 20:10   #161
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Real Arfy
Oh good, a forums mod and a multi-hunter -apologies if you guys are actually PA team reps.

Also, why announce these changes before they are all known? Given that there is a big uproar at these current changes what makes you think the rest of them won't make that even worse? It won't necessarily cancel it out, you need to ask the community BEFORE and not AFTER you change it.
Squishy and JBG are both PATeam members

We needed to announce most of the changes that effect alliances because the alliances told us they needed to know things so they could plan.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 20:15   #162
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
From reading this thread I don't believe there is a community consensus on the announced changes. Some people like some changes and hate others, some hate them all, some like them all. This is the response we largly expected.
you have very large negative responses on a couple points from the announced changes
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 20:16   #163
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
From reading this thread I don't believe there is a community consensus on the announced changes. Some people like some changes and hate others, some hate them all, some like them all. This is the response we largly expected.

kinda odd that you judge how good the changes are cos of the replies in this tread, what is it 15-20 ppl? nagging here

you are a silly bat m8, how many payed was it last round? <1k and the game is dead

edit: did a minor change

Last edited by robban1; 15 Dec 2006 at 20:41.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 20:19   #164
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by robban1
kinda odd that you judge how good the changes are cos of the replies in this tread, what is it 15-20 ppl? nagging here

you are a silly bat m8, how many payed was it last round? >1k and the game is dead
That means over 1k mate, but I get ya ;D
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 20:21   #165
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
Squishy and JBG are both PATeam members

We needed to announce most of the changes that effect alliances because the alliances told us they needed to know things so they could plan.
You could still have announced: "and these are currently in development, what do you think?" or even a month ago: "hey guys this is what we would like to change in r20 - what do you think?".

I do appreciate what work pa team do for us, but I feel that pa team doesn't appreciate what work/opinions/input the community does/has.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 20:24   #166
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by aNgRyDuCk
you have very large negative responses on a couple points from the announced changes
Largely people who agree with the changes don't post.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 20:26   #167
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Largely people who agree with the changes don't post.
I think some intelligent people have pointed out some obvious flaws in these changes. If your tone is that of the PA crew, then we're not going to get anywhere by posting anyway will we?
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 20:26   #168
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Largely people who agree with the changes don't post.
Its still not an effective way to measure popularity...
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 20:26   #169
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Re: Round 20 Changes

I've resisted signing up for these forums for a little while now, but with these new set of changes (and the ensuing controversy), I feel like throwing in my two cents.

New buddy pack size:
This is a completely unnecessary change. I understand why this was done - in order to get some more variety and hopefully a more level playing field in galaxy creation. This is an admirable goal. But the way to go about this is to put a cap on galaxy size. Keep the BPs at 5. At the shuffle, make galaxy sizes of 9-10. Maybe let gals grow a bit as the round goes on, but cap em at like 12, tops. Having 23 planets in a galaxy is just rediculous.

Maybe allow new galaxies to be created as the round goes on. Have it in the code that when a critically small number of gals has been reached, the next 10 exiles will all end up in a new galaxy. If the exile situation from last round was any indication, we can fill up a new galaxy in 12 hours, tops.

Clusters
I wasn't around in the earlier days of cluster alliances. But it sounds cool, and a lot of the people who were around back then liked that system, so I guess I'm onboard. As for the concern about undefendable fleet catches, that isn't entirely accurate. For one thing, a -2 cluster ETA will make incluster attacks less likely as people build in-cluster bonds. Second, while normal allies will be unable to defend some of these FCs, incluster allies certainly will be able to defend, which gives an even bigger incentive to form these alliances to begin with. And there's always ingal def.

New Alliance Size
I think that most of you have been misinterpreting how alliances will work now. Although you might be right and I could just be misinterpreting. The way it should work is that an alliance can recruit up to 60 at any time, and after that point they can only include another 10 extra, with value limitations on those 10. The cap on the first week would apply to those alliances who recruit to the max in the first week of the alliance. But if you have a small allinace that is recruiting slowly, the half-value limit on recruits would come into effect once the ally hits 60, not once T168 passes.

Alliances by value
I'm a fan. XPwhoring will still be a viable strategy. This is how planet and galaxy scores will be decided, and so there will still be an incentive to go for low-value high-XP. But maybe this is just me speaking as a value-player, but I've always found XPwhoring to be a bit cheap. This will discourage crashing fleets, which is also just a bad tactic. As for the concern that very few allies will have a shot? Very few allies have a shot anyway. Allies aren't about winning. They are about a social group that can provide assistance on attacks and defence. That will not change based on ranking. If every alliance was formed with the intent of winning the round, how can you explain the existence of small allies?

Also, on the additional concern of everyone going Zik. First, this discounts the incentive to win best planet or gal. Second, as has been pointed out, Zik SUCK at defense. I mean, they really suck at it. They get better as the round goes on and they steal other ships. But if the fears of the masses are realized and there is a huge surge in the number of Ziks, that will mean much worse Zik players at round's end, since there will be fewer targets to steal from. Also, while Zik are good at FCs, they need escorts from other races in order to be successful. How many devastating FCs will we see if no one plays Cat to stun first? Not as many. A Zik-heavy alliance will still be able to get score easier through stealing ships, but they will have a much harder time keeping it.

Suggestion: to keep value balanced, make roids count more towards value. This will give people a big incentive NOT to play Zik.

Paid Account Changes
I'm indifferent. I'll still pay, because Engineering is DAMN important, and even if it wasn't, I'd want to support PATeam. If PATeam thinks this is better for them economically, all the more power to them.


In all, I think the changes for next round are good. The only change that wasn't made but I think is NECESSARY is a hard-cap on gal size. 23 is just too damn much. As for everyone who dislikes the way this affects their play-style or what-have-you, come on! Give it a try! I see a lot of new and interesting possibilities with this system. And given the paid account changes, you can play without paying to see how "bad" this new system is. When it turns out that the new system is actually really good, you can pay then.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 20:31   #170
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bugsby
New buddy pack size:
This is a completely unnecessary change. I understand why this was done - in order to get some more variety and hopefully a more level playing field in galaxy creation. This is an admirable goal. But the way to go about this is to put a cap on galaxy size. Keep the BPs at 5. At the shuffle, make galaxy sizes of 9-10. Maybe let gals grow a bit as the round goes on, but cap em at like 12, tops. Having 23 planets in a galaxy is just rediculous.
Actually I think its to make more galaxies - which while it will decrease galaxy size, its not the solution we want to see.

While I do actually think these changes are somewhat good, its the way they are enforced. We need to discuss these things before they are implemented. There are some things that are 5 rounds old that were well appreciated by the community that have been ignored.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 20:39   #171
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
Squishy and JBG are both PATeam members

We needed to announce most of the changes that effect alliances because the alliances told us they needed to know things so they could plan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal - from Planetarion's Future Development
We aim to:
- Make the game more about ability than activity.
oh?

Quote:
1) Make a backdrop of a proper science fiction story. This will include events from previous rounds as well as events prior to Round 1. This should be in place by Round 20.

2) Change the free/paid boundaries so that the free planets are easy to play as and more competitive than they are currently, a key aspect of this will be removing the current ETA restrictions. This should be in place by Round 20.

3) Make the game friendlier to those playing from the same location through less reliance on IP-based evidence, tool improvements and a more casual approach to enforcing in-game exceptions. This will be a gradual process that is already underway.

4) Improve the main www.planetarion.com site to market the game more successfully. Phase one of this is already complete, with a revamped portal for Round 19. The site will be further enhanced for Round 20.

5) Make core features simple on the surface but with hidden depths, perhaps with more features along the lines of engineering priorities that could be disabled on free accounts. This will take place gradually with the first changes being visible for Round 20.

6) Work with partners and affiliates to promote Planetarion across the NetGamers community. This is currently in progress with an affiliates section on www.planetarion.com being developed. NetGamers is currently our only affiliate, but we aim to add affiliates over the rest of this year and next year.

7) Work with NetGamers to improve irc facilities for alliances so that alliances can easily locate all of their channels on the netgamers server without security fears. An initial system will be in place for Round 19, with further enhancements coming in 2007.

8) Develop a system to allow users to have a single login for life, with credit management and purchasing handled outside individual games. This will not only make life easier for players (as they will only need to give ruler name, planet name and race when signing up to a game), but will also cut down on administration in general. This will be put in place during 2007.
Looks like you addressed #2. Can we expect the other 6 in this 'next batch o changes'?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal from Operations Dept. Announcement
The head of the operations department will be myself ([email protected]) and Chef ([email protected]) will be acting as my department deputy. If anyone has any queries regarding this new department please feel free to get in touch with either of us.

The mandate for this new department will be:
- Improving the PATeams reputation with the community
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 20:47   #172
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrow|Pony
oh?

Looks like you addressed #2. Can we expect the other 6 in this 'next batch o changes'?

The announcement you quote is for our 2007 plans, so you can expect changes addressing the noted areas over the course of 2007.


I can see on your first point that the announcement might suggest we want to make the game more activity dependant. However, i'd suggest that doesn't have to be the case and that its more about promoting different gameplay styles.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 20:49   #173
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Re: Round 20 Changes

by eliminating the alliance xp gameplay style, you intend to promote more different gameplay styles?
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 21:02   #174
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Re: Round 20 Changes

stop ignoring my idea you scum
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 21:05   #175
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
I'm going to comment on a couple of points raised:

1) Some people have complained about a lack of PATeam responses in this thread. However there have been several responses from JBG and Squishy and JBG at leats was very active in the debate about the announced changes.

2) Some people have sugegsted that Zik will now be very strong and even more important in alliance wars. Currently a lot of work is being done to the combat engine, so don't think that stats etc are necessaily as limited as they have been in previous rounds. I'd like to emphaises the first sentence of the last paragraph of the announcement - "More changes will be announced before signups open early next year." Don't judge next round until all of the changes are known.
It's basically very interesting to see that PA team implements changes which base the game around absolute activity again and thus contradicting their will to open up the game to a broader audience.

I do like some of the changes made and announced so far, but others are pure crap. Overall, it just continues what we have seen since Spinner left - nobody has any idea on how the game should be. Combining activity-demands with clueless attempts of game design, nothing more this is.

PS: We still lack your vision, Kal.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 22:07   #176
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by R20 Annonements
- Galaxies are buddy packs of 2x2 or 1x3 as a base, allocation of paid and free planets allocated randomly on top of that
- Clusters get -2 defence eta advantage
- Clusters get -1 attack eta advantage
This as i see it means that their will be many more gals with a strong core of good players at their heart. What i have often seen in the past for many people is an inability to get a good core of players that will stay the course. Once one or two of a 5man BP drop the gal becomes significantly weaker than BPs with 5 remaining strong players With the smaller BP size this should become easier to manage meaning that there are more strong cores about. Addmittitdly if someone from a 3 man BP drops then the galaxy can be in serious trouble but the fact their are more bps with good players who will stay the course will imo lead to more stonger competative gals.

I see a lot of alliances complaining about cluster defence problems and i unserstand. But these changes wont penalise alliances going in with their eyes open. The know that they have to get strong clusters from the start to prevent this. they will also have to organise cluster wings for defence purposes more to cover the low etas.

This might seem like unnesesery work for alliances who im sure like the way things are. However it will open up a whole new dynamic of game play with cluster alliances opening up. Who on the whole will accept new players more readly than current alliances do. This will induce more players to stick around.

Quote:
- Alliances are a maximum size of 60 members up to tick 168 (1 week in), then they're allowed to accept up to 10 members that are below half their alliance's average value
- All planets count towards the alliance limit
Honestly i havnt had much experiance with the problems caused by the alliance limits in the past and not having been an HC of an alliance i dont feel quilified to commend on how these will affect alliances.

Quote:
- Alliance rankings is now in terms of value. The alliance ranking page and alliance dumps will be updated to reflect this.
This i really like. As i have said earlier in this thread.

Quote:
- JGPs can be launched if you have a free fleet without having to actually launch it at the target first (they will still work on planets that a fleet is travelling to)
- Commas are stripped from the production, mining and alliance fund page, so data can be pasted in from other areas of the game

- Significant portions of the code have been rewritten to allow faster and more reliable operation. This includes:
-- Ticker streamlining
-- Admin tools simplification and recoding
-- Increased configuration options
-- Removal of code duplication to reduce the chance of future bugs when adding new features

- The skinning system has been rewritten to allow much more flexible skin designs
General tweaking. Cant see any problems with this

Quote:
- The differences between paid and free accounts have changed dramatically. Paid accounts will have benefits including:
-- Greater choice of skins, (free accounts will only get a core set of 3-4)
-- Engineering/journal/history pages
-- All information on the universe misc page
-- Ability to change fleet names
-- Ability to see outgoing fleets on galaxy status
-- No annoying ad banner
-- Ability to be in a buddy pack
-- A full tech tree - free accounts will be limited in some areas such as the covert operations and scan tree (but NOT the timetravel tree).
This as i see it is a good thing. People now have an option of playing free more readly and doing quite well. It will attract a lot of people back to the game and a fair few new people as well i imagine. However i dont think it will mean a huge drop ni people actually paying. The engineering is a huge issue as is the extra res that is recieved at the start. With a more value based game alliance members will be encourages to pay for their accounts so that the alliance can gain value quickly. I would seriously miss the 15% res growth.

Allianceless people who play free will have a large problem as well that they cant scan for them selves. So what we have is alliances encouraging their members to pay for the res and thus value bonuses of engineering (along with other bonuses, im just picking my favorite engineering priority) and allianceless people with the problem of not being able to scan.

With the introduction of cluster play the new people who join will find a home to start building their pa carreer. Someplace people will have a vested intrest in keeping them alive and on their side.

This post is made from my opinion of the changes as a player and long time member of the pa community. I have recently rejoined the PAteam but i had no involvment in these changes. I think that potentially these changes could mean great things for the game and would love to see them implremented for a round. To see how they fair
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 23:45   #177
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squishy
I see a lot of alliances complaining about cluster defence problems and i unserstand. But these changes wont penalise alliances going in with their eyes open. The know that they have to get strong clusters from the start to prevent this. they will also have to organise cluster wings for defence purposes more to cover the low etas.
how many people do you think each alliance (considering the max is 60-70 players etc)will have in each cluster? ESPECIALLY with MORE galaxies/Clusters because of smaller buddy packs? Not to mention this is totally a luck of the draw issue, and alliance have no way to organize or plan in advance for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squishy
This as i see it is a good thing. People now have an option of playing free more readly and doing quite well. It will attract a lot of people back to the game and a fair few new people as well i imagine. However i dont think it will mean a huge drop in people actually paying. The engineering is a huge issue as is the extra res that is recieved at the start. With a more value based game alliance members will be encourages to pay for their accounts so that the alliance can gain value quickly. I would seriously miss the 15% res growth.
ADVERTISING and Jolt spending money on advertising will bring players to the game, farting around with making more changes every damn round just for the sake of changing things...does nothing but piss ppl off and make them want to find another game, thus the declining player base, especially when the changes are rediculous and/or pointless. (I say that as I've seen no real explanation from the ppl who develop this game as to why these changes are being made really..just here they are, and oh well if you don't like it)
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Unread 16 Dec 2006, 05:11   #178
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squishy
This as i see it means that their will be many more gals with a strong core of good players at their heart. What i have often seen in the past for many people is an inability to get a good core of players that will stay the course. Once one or two of a 5man BP drop the gal becomes significantly weaker than BPs with 5 remaining strong players With the smaller BP size this should become easier to manage meaning that there are more strong cores about. Addmittitdly if someone from a 3 man BP drops then the galaxy can be in serious trouble but the fact their are more bps with good players who will stay the course will imo lead to more stonger competative gals.
There will be more gals. Slightly. I think alot more people will go random due to a) boredom of playing hardcore for value and b) the cluster set-up - unless you're in a strong alliance, whats the point in being ingal with other hostiles? you'll just get hit! (of course, some people will be hit relentlessly - but that would happen anyway)

Again, no disrespect to Zimra (our new forums guy) but he was talking about his own BP - how would you like a BP with a complete lack of experience?
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Unread 16 Dec 2006, 10:47   #179
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
I'm going to comment on a couple of points raised:

1) Some people have complained about a lack of PATeam responses in this thread. However there have been several responses from JBG and Squishy and JBG at leats was very active in the debate about the announced changes.

2) Some people have sugegsted that Zik will now be very strong and even more important in alliance wars. Currently a lot of work is being done to the combat engine, so don't think that stats etc are necessaily as limited as they have been in previous rounds. I'd like to emphaises the first sentence of the last paragraph of the announcement - "More changes will be announced before signups open early next year." Don't judge next round until all of the changes are known.

How ****ing ignorant can a person get?

I have lost all confidence AGAIN in the PA teams ability to put the ear to the ground and listen to the community's request and wishes.

The fact that there has been a large quanta of expirienced people discussing in this thread how they dont like the new changes to the game most certainly suggests to me that the new changes are not welcome, and most of the positive responses still got atleast one or two problems with the current suggested changes that the PA team have put up.

And I have to honestly say that this quote more or less just proves to me how little Kal values the current people playing this game:


<Kal> my aims are long term growth - i recognise that this could mean a short term drop

<Kal> of course we realise what this will do to some alliances. alliances have come to dominate the game too much. while alliances do have a signifcant place in PA, that place is perhaps not what it has been in recent rounds.


Let me just ask you this question Kal, when most of the people who lead the alliances today who are the people I think got the most contacts with the old playerbase that have left over the years, when they leave the game, who would advertise the new and "leet" PA to the old playerbase? I for sure wont.

You have misunderstood the BASICS of how to maintain an interested customergroup by alienating the ones that work their ass off every damn round to make sure the people that play this game stays in this crap game of yours.

So please Kal, go back to the drawing board and try find a way that atleast most of the people _still_ playing finds liveable.

Alliances is the last core of players that actually stays loyal to the game, and pulling away the basis for them to be alive is not the way to promote this game in my honest opinion.
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Unread 16 Dec 2006, 11:15   #180
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
I have lost all confidence AGAIN in the PA teams ability to put the ear to the ground and listen to the community's request and wishes.
This is fallacy. PAteam shouldn't be listening to the community's requsets and wishes. There is no guarantee that selectively listening to those who speak the loudest will lead to a better game. I do not doubt that 'the community' (whoever the hell that might be) have good ideas. But filtering out which ideas are good and which are bad is very difficult. People who know the game well often have completely different ideas, so it's not feasible to only listen to experts*.

You have to keep in mind that everyone has their own vision of what PA should be, continually listening to the community is a surefire way to end up with a schizophrenic game at best.

I think PAteam's primary mistake was not the changes they announced, but announcing partial changes. Without being able to see the whole picture, it is meaningless to comment.


* By experts I mean people such as Rob, Synthetic_Sid, mist and other experienced players who have regularly contributed to development in the past.
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Unread 16 Dec 2006, 11:26   #181
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
This is fallacy. PAteam shouldn't be listening to the community's requsets and wishes.
I see your point, but the way I see it, alienating alot of the people who play this game the most active is a sure way to bankrupt alley. Most of the players I know mainly plays now for their alliance, and I only see most of theese suggestions as a way of tearing down the fundament wich the alliances bases themselves on. We're allready struggling with the galaxy vs alliance loyality. Now we're gonna get alliance vs cluster vs galaxy loyality struggles..

I simply see no way that this is gonna help PA anywhere

<Kal> [19:00] <Shoshuro> problem is members have capacity , some have basic organisational skills others do not (the majority) <-- yes, so you as hcs will ahve to do work to make their clusters work

And again Kal have shown his inability to UNDERSTAND anything that goes on in alliances anymore.

Expecting that the alliance hc's just have to "work" out the clusters only proves how lacking he is in the mental department. Expecting that the hc's that are active will automatically take a part in the cluster organisation is simply just another proof of how farfetched and lack of touch this man really is. Please Jolt, remove him from any development before he ruins your steady income.
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Unread 16 Dec 2006, 11:40   #182
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Re: Round 20 Changes

The -2 and - 1 Cluster def and attack options will imho see a lot of people signing up several planets and then abandoning them untill they get in the "correct" cluster.


Is this against the rules, in as much as there would be no "intent" to play the multiple planets but a desire to attain a prefered location ?
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Unread 16 Dec 2006, 11:45   #183
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge
The -2 and - 1 Cluster def and attack options will imho see a lot of people signing up several planets and then abandoning them untill they get in the "correct" cluster.


Is this against the rules, in as much as there would be no "intent" to play the multiple planets but a desire to attain a prefered location ?
it is agsint the rules yes - but its also not an effective tactic as at the very least they would have to wait until after the shuffle to do it. exiling is probabaly a more effective way to do it.
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Unread 16 Dec 2006, 11:46   #184
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Which part of "multiple planets are not allowed" didnt you understand?
Of course its against the rules
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Unread 16 Dec 2006, 11:48   #185
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Largely people who agree with the changes don't post.

I agree with the changes!

Mainly because people always try to predict how the round will pan out alliance-gal-planet wise and nearly always get it wrong. People are generally flexible and will adapt to the changes.

There are always a few factors people don't think of, which make all their predictions null and void.

I think it's best to give the new changes a try. People should stop trying to analyse how things will occur, because most of the time they're wrong. Planetarion is a social game and therefore there are many factors which influence how a round will pan out. Not just the changes.
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Unread 16 Dec 2006, 11:52   #186
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
it is agsint the rules yes - but its also not an effective tactic as at the very least they would have to wait until after the shuffle to do it. exiling is probabaly a more effective way to do it.

If the galaxy sizes are to be fixed at 10 and the limitations on the BP's as announced would there be a need at all for a shuffle?
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Unread 16 Dec 2006, 11:56   #187
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Re: Round 20 Changes

what exactly is the point of screwing current alliances in favor of starting cluster alliances?
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Unread 16 Dec 2006, 12:07   #188
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by aNgRyDuCk
what exactly is the point of screwing current alliances in favor of starting cluster alliances?

I have no idea, and tbh I dont see the point at all in joining an alliance when the only benefit will be to the alliance's score/stature/position on the universe ranking of the alliance.

In cluster attacks will be impossible for the alliance to defend with any sort of certainty making the benefits of being in an alliance pretty much mute.
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Unread 16 Dec 2006, 12:19   #189
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Re: Round 20 Changes

you are not screwing current alliances. They can play the same way they always have. But it now gives people more options

They are now no longer have to be in one of the top5 alliances to do well. Players can play for the personal win. Keeping value low and xp high. The can play in an alliance for value and go for the value win. Or simply then can try to organise their cluster get involved with the community more and become competative due to where they live in the universe.

As i see it this gives a more scope for different playing styles and means that people can do well without having to have played for many rounds and already made many friends to get them in a top alliance.

Im a bit concenred the people complaining about them are looking to much at the smaller picture.

People who dont play in the top 5 can now still do well and not be crushed by the stronger more experiance alliances. The game will become more friendly to the newer and less experianced people who play.

I understand the oposition to this in the main stream alliances and looking and looking at the most out spoken people on this thread they seem to be alliance HCs of the top rung alliances. The tactics and game play you employed uptill now still exist and can still be used. But it will no longer mean that you will have a certanty of winning. You have to expand your playing style. The game as i see it had become completly alliance dominated and while i conced this is what keeps people playing their has to be other options available to people other than being able to get vouches in a top alliance.

People will still play for their alliance. Alliance win has become more important than personal win on the whole with people often sacraficing their top10 planet finish for their top1 alliance finish.

EDIT: Just on that last point can people name the #1 planet off the top of their head for the past 7 rounds? Generally the top planet drops into obscurity as its always been less about skill and determination than the alliance win has
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Unread 16 Dec 2006, 12:33   #190
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Greenhills, almeida, elviz, lokken, blackg, elviz, keiz, aif, cheerios, dunno the next two, kaifux, sliekas, servuz, kileman, sliekas, ish, ziukis, singu, videer, moridin.


Just goes to show how shit rounds 10 and 10.5 were
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Unread 16 Dec 2006, 12:34   #191
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Re: Round 20 Changes

touché

My point still stands though. Maney people will chose to go for an alliance win with the posibility of the planet win than the surity of a planet win and letting their alliance down
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Unread 16 Dec 2006, 12:36   #192
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Re: Round 20 Changes

One of the interesting possibilites we could see next round is an alliance could play for its memebr's sucess - potentially somehting like a #15-15 ranked alliances could end up dominating the planet and galaxy rankings - which would be very interesting. Now which alliance would you join? one that plays to give u a high ranking or one that plays to give itself a high ranking?
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Unread 16 Dec 2006, 12:39   #193
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
it is agsint the rules yes - but its also not an effective tactic as at the very least they would have to wait until after the shuffle to do it. exiling is probabaly a more effective way to do it.
You've hit the nail on the head there. Exiling was a major problem last round (my galaxy kept losing decent players all the way through) - it will be far worse if people need to be sure they're in the "right" cluster.

The law of "unintended consequences" is again displayed here. Self-exiling was introduced to help the unfortunate player who was stuck in a "dead" galaxy. It has since been mercilessly abused by players trying to work around the "no private galaxies" rule and the shuffle.

I suggest encouraging teamwork and loyalty in two ways. Remove the self-exile option and also make joining an alliance last for the whole round.

/me sits back and waits for the uproar.
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Unread 16 Dec 2006, 12:41   #194
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
Now which alliance would you join? one that plays to give u a high ranking or one that plays to give itself a high ranking?

In reality one should compliment the other, however we are talking Planetarion here, reallity never has been a commodity in any sort of reasonable supply.
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Unread 16 Dec 2006, 12:43   #195
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Re: Round 20 Changes

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Originally Posted by Judge
In reality one should compliment the other, however we are talking Planetarion here, reallity never has been a commodity in any sort of reasonable supply.
I'm not sure in "reality" that they would compliment each other - in life there are always decisions and compromises to make.
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Unread 16 Dec 2006, 13:14   #196
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Aye in life there are.

but why is it in Planetarion the Team make the decisions and the players are always the ones who compromise ?
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Unread 16 Dec 2006, 13:52   #197
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quick question... Why are the galaxy rankings not done by value?
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Unread 17 Dec 2006, 19:16   #198
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Re: Round 20 Changes

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Originally Posted by Kargool
I see your point, but the way I see it, alienating alot of the people who play this game the most active is a sure way to bankrupt alley. Most of the players I know mainly plays now for their alliance, and I only see most of theese suggestions as a way of tearing down the fundament wich the alliances bases themselves on. We're allready struggling with the galaxy vs alliance loyality. Now we're gonna get alliance vs cluster vs galaxy loyality struggles..

I simply see no way that this is gonna help PA anywhere
gotta agree with that tbh. thats very true.
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Unread 17 Dec 2006, 22:21   #199
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Re: Round 20 Changes

I realise I'm posting here a bit late, but I thought I might as well add my thoughts to the issue. I've read through all of this, and I'm aware I'm going to be repeating some of what's been said, but that can't be helped.

'Galaxies are buddy packs of 2x2 or 1x3 as a base, allocation of paid and free planets allocated randomly on top of that'

I am sure that this is going to annoy a great amount of people. From what I've seen already in my Galaxy, my GC who started started it with a buddy pack is already very frustrated that he is now going to have to pick and choose between the friends he took with him this time. I can also see that with buddy packs being so small, if an inexperienced player like me joins one with some other inexperienced players and then some other people end up in the galaxy, they may not be too happy about that. Mass exiles all over again. I'm still reserving judgement on this until I find out how big galaxies are going to be (if somebody already said, then I must have missed it). The fact that the buddy packs are smaller suggests that the gal's will be smaller, because it wouldn't really make much sense otherwise. Why have a core of 3 people in a galaxy of over 20 people? I could be wrong, though.

'- Clusters get -2 defence eta advantage - Clusters get -1 attack eta advantage'

I have mixed feelings about this too. It could go either way, very good or very bad. The -2 on defence helps counteract the -1 on attack. Also, if you have a very good cluster alliance, then your chances of getting defence should improve, although not that much, since obviously the defence is going to have to be spread throughout the whole cluster. This whole cluster thing could also lead to a couple of gal's in the cluster being relentlessly mashed by the bigger galaxies. There's also the subject of fleet catches that have been mentioned earlier. But look on the bright side, only certain Zik ships will be able to hit the lower ETA's. Going off of the old ship stats, you'd still have plenty of time to stop a BS fleet catch, right? Actually now that I'm posting it the ship stats are being taken down, but as far as I can remember, Zik ships that cap big ships are usually big themselves, thus have a higher ETA. But it all waits to be seen.

One thing that is bugging me. As a new player, and forgive me for not knowing much, but the whole setting up of a cluster alliance and all that is going to involve a lot of manual work. Wouldn't it be a good idea to add some kind of 'Cluster' option onto the menu that allowed you to view various different information about the cluster? List of galaxies, maybe a cluster forum. It could make the initial setting up of a cluster alliance a hell of a lot easier and would also help less experienced players have some small clue as to what was going on.

'- Alliances are a maximum size of 60 members up to tick 168 (1 week in), then they're allowed to accept up to 10 members that are below half their alliance's average value - All planets count towards the alliance limit - Alliance rankings is now in terms of value. The alliance ranking page and alliance dumps will be updated to reflect this.'

I really can't comment on most of this since my knowledge of alliances doesn't stem very far past the regular day to day workings of sending defence and picking targets. I don't have enough experience to critique the whole 60 member thing. The value part, though, is interesting. As it's been stated, people are going to have to choose between a winning alliance or a personal win. However, isn't it still possible to gain a huge score while maintaining a huge value? The bigger your value, the more ships you have, the easier it should be to land on solo xp-score whoring people. But then I don't know the exact specifics of the whole crashing through defence/massive score gain, so I don't know exactly how it works. And I'm probably talking crap. That's just how I see it, and if anything at least you'll be able to see how confusing this whole thing is to a total newbie.

The rest of the changes I'm fine with, and I love the JGP free fleet addition. That will save a lot of time, especially with my satellite being worse than dialup sometimes. The changes to free accounts don't bother me, as I will be paying anyway.
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Unread 17 Dec 2006, 23:40   #200
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Well, i don't like many of the new changes... reduced buddypack, which will mean that not all of the players I wanted to play with will be in the same gal.. which will make defend much more harder..

I really REALLY don't like the -1 in cluster attack.. Because it mean that fi/co can attack in cluster with eta6.. Which will mean that I have to spend EVEN
more time on PA then last round.. :-( The week point with the -1 Cluster eta is that you expect to have Cluster Alliances or something like this.. but HOW do you expect that new players will figure this out?? Old time players with their own networks or players might get an defense (outside alliance) but those new players will just be robbed blind.. Yeah, its going to be very good to be Zik.. ..
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