Global Media: US vs UK

[Dibdevlin]

Originally posted by Deffeh
why did you have to be so aggressive about your point Witness? This isnt an america/anti-america thread. I cant be ****ed with another one of them.


And will you please stop saying "euros". The BBC although being widley spread in many forms, is the british brodcasting corporation. Its nothing like Austria's ORF1 for example, and all the rest of the europes news. You cannot, repeat, cannot, keep classifying europe as a country, kapeech?

You really don't think this thread is bashing America? Strange seemed rather clear to me that was the whole point.

[Deffeh]

Originally posted by Dibdevlin
You really don't think this thread is bashing America? Strange seemed rather clear to me that was the whole point.

Read the very first post, thanks. Dont get me wrong, im sick of the anti-americans as much as i am of the nationalists. It seems each "side" just WANTS to be provoked by the other ffs. Any excuse and it turns into a flame thread.

[Dibdevlin]

Originally posted by Deffeh
Read the very first post, thanks. Dont get me wrong, im sick of the anti-americans as much as i am of the nationalists. It seems each "side" just WANTS to be provoked by the other ffs. Any excuse and it turns into a flame thread.

I did read the first post and just because someone says "I don't want this to be an anti-american thread" doesn't make it so. If I say I am not being racist here but all blacks are lazy, and hispanics are thieves and all gays have aids. Does it make the statements less racist?


The author has been around long enough to know exactly what kind of thread is going to happen when he posted what he posted.

[Deffeh]

the author structured his thread and opinion well, and left it open for others to discuss.

The key word is discuss, not argue. The only "flaming" as such was done by witness who came charging in with sweeping "euro" generalisations.

[Texan]

I have CNN on television, and BBC and American Forces Network on radio. I listen to Paul Harvey on AFN, but I listen to BBC when Paul Harvey is not on. I watch CNN occasionaly when I am at home. I get most of my news from U.S. newspapers plus The Economist, London Times, Korean Times, Hong Kong Times, MEMRI and a large variety of newspapers and magazines that are published in English.

The U.S. Department of Defense has a service that provides me more than I can possibly read in one day. Most of it is newspapers. Most of you seem to be discussing television news. Television news is generally very shallow. Newspapers are where the real information can be found. Not online newspapers. You need the hard copy.

Some of the information I post on this forum cannot be found online or on television. You have to see the hard copy newspaper.

I find BBC to be very credible, but a couple of months ago a person (some union guy) who was being interviewed on BBC said the United States had used chemical weapons in Vietnam, so why should Saddam Hussein not be allowed to have chemical weapons. The BBC reporter did not question that statement. Of course the chemical weapons Iraq used against Iran and the Kurds were designed to kill people, whereas the chemical weapons used by the United States in Vietnam were designed to kill vegetation. Agent Orange might have killed people, but they did not die that day or even that year. I'm not saying that Agent Orange is good. It was a defoliant that scientists thought would kill plants not people. Saddam Hussein sent chemicals to kill people not plants.

I think CNN wants to be objective. According to many of you they seem to have failed. On the other hand, one of the guys I work with will not watch CNN because he says it is anti-American. He prefers Fox.

A person on this forum once said that Al-Jazeera is more objective than CNN. That I do not believe.

[Dibdevlin]

Originally posted by Deffeh
the author structured his thread and opinion well, and left it open for others to discuss.

The key word is discuss, not argue. The only "flaming" as such was done by witness who came charging in with sweeping "euro" generalisations.

Really? The only flaming was done by sweeing "euro" generalzations. You have a VERY strange view of this thread...

Originally posted by Deffeh
why did you have to be so aggressive about your point Witness? This isnt an america/anti-america thread. I cant be ****ed with another one of them.


And will you please stop saying "euros". The BBC although being widley spread in many forms, is the british brodcasting corporation. Its nothing like Austria's ORF1 for example, and all the rest of the europes news. You cannot, repeat, cannot, keep classifying europe as a country, kapeech?

LMAO! It's "capisce", and I'm not being aggressive at all! If I sound so, maybe it is because so many here just love talking about things they have no clue about, and I insist on refuting their stance(s).

I call the BBC "Euro" because it IS. You are a heck of a lot closer to the mainland of europe than you'll ever want to admit, and your attitudes about Americans are so stereotypical and full of the same BS as any other euro. I'm not trying to be inflammatory, I'm just stating what I've seen.

As for anyone calling FOX News biased, I would have to say those people do NOT watch it on a regular basis, and THAT is most likely because you saw a report which refutes or castigates a report you saw on your precious BBC or even CNN.

I have quite a few years of news watching/reading/listening experience, and FOX is the first American station to present unbiased reports, and even present things that CNN deems unpopular.

But, to get right down to it, ANYONE who relies on one news source when so many are available, is an ignorant fool. To form a healthy and well-rounded opinion, a person should do a number of things:

1. Live somewhere OTHER than the country they were born for at least 1 year.

2. Read a newspaper everyday OTHER than a local rag.

3. Watch at least TWO Major news sources on a regular basis.

4. Observe healthy internet debate on the subject of world affairs. I said "observe", because we wouldn't want someone just diving into a forum without knowing his ass from a hole in the ground, would we?!

Originally posted by Deffeh
the author structured his thread and opinion well, and left it open for others to discuss.

The key word is discuss, not argue. The only "flaming" as such was done by witness who came charging in with sweeping "euro" generalisations.

Interesting take on things, as I noticed some "sweeping American generalisations". Funny how a person's worldview dictates what he or she really sees, is it not?

BTW, I get most of my news from the Kansas City Star, the "Earlybird"(the Defense News Service Texan alluded to), the Army Times, The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, and for TV news, my local NBC Affiliate and FOX for international.

[Gayle29uk]

Originally posted by Wî†ne§§ †GñA†
<snip>

You forgot 'listen to the radio'. I'm a talk radio addict and I pick up more views and more news that way than all the rest put together.

[LHC]

Originally posted by Wî†ne§§ †GñA†
Interesting take on things, as I noticed some "sweeping American generalisations". Funny how a person's worldview dictates what he or she really sees, is it not?

At least America is one nation. Europe is not. It's easier to generalise one country that a continent made up of several.

[Deffeh]

Originally posted by Wî†ne§§ †GñA†
LMAO! It's "capisce", and I'm not being aggressive at all! If I sound so, maybe it is because so many here just love talking about things they have no clue about, and I insist on refuting their stance(s).

I call the BBC "Euro" because it IS. You are a heck of a lot closer to the mainland of europe than you'll ever want to admit, and your attitudes about Americans are so stereotypical and full of the same BS as any other euro. I'm not trying to be inflammatory, I'm just stating what I've seen.

As for anyone calling FOX News biased, I would have to say those people do NOT watch it on a regular basis, and THAT is most likely because you saw a report which refutes or castigates a report you saw on your precious BBC or even CNN.

I have quite a few years of news watching/reading/listening experience, and FOX is the first American station to present unbiased reports, and even present things that CNN deems unpopular.

But, to get right down to it, ANYONE who relies on one news source when so many are available, is an ignorant fool. To form a healthy and well-rounded opinion, a person should do a number of things:

1. Live somewhere OTHER than the country they were born for at least 1 year.

2. Read a newspaper everyday OTHER than a local rag.

3. Watch at least TWO Major news sources on a regular basis.

4. Observe healthy internet debate on the subject of world affairs. I said "observe", because we wouldn't want someone just diving into a forum without knowing his ass from a hole in the ground, would we?!

After reading this, ive come to the sad conclusion that i was premature in thinking your intention was to settle into this community, which is a shame really . I actually thought for a brief moment you wanted to take part in intelligent debate, on subjects other than america.

Your posting style is uninformed and provocative. You arent willing to discuss points without resorting to the "lmao you dont get it" DF3 mentality. That doesnt impress anyone here, im afraid. You are unable to accept others opinions as valid from different perspectives.

As to your point, primarily i am a clarkstonian, then i am a glaswegian, then i am a scot, then i am british, then im european, then im part of the free world. I feel no shame in who i am for my own actions. Nor do i feel ashamed to be european. What you do not seem to understand, is there is no sort of european "community" feel, at least in britain. Europe is made of many seperate countries with different governments, and different peoples with different mindsets. There have been countless inter-european wars, and there isnt a single country in europe that would give up their independance to be part of a european state.

Yet you constantly refer to me as a "euro", which i take offence to, because its just like an indian/western asian being called a "paki". It shows ignorance on your part, if you think we all share similar cultural backgrounds and mindsets.

[Gayle29uk]

Originally posted by Deffeh
<snip>

Possibly a little harsh but fundamentally accurate

Witness: If you think we're anti-US you should see what we think of the French! Europe doesn't have a common mindset, we don't even have a common language (although the same could almost be said of the Bronx and Iowa )!

[Erkenbrand]

I would put FoxNews, the Washinton Times and the Wall Street Journals' editoral all in the same conservative boat.

[Zither]

Originally posted by Deffeh
Good post

Wî†ne§§ †GñA†

As one brit who finds it offensice to be called a 'euro' i hope u take it back, i have my own nationality thank u very much so please do not insult me by classing me with cultures who are far less similar to my own than the USA culture is.

[Texan]

Originally posted by Deffeh
Your posting style is uninformed and provocative. You arent willing to discuss points without resorting to the "lmao you dont get it" DF3 mentality. That doesnt impress anyone here, im afraid. You are unable to accept others opinions as valid from different perspectives.

As to your point, primarily i am a clarkstonian, then i am a glaswegian, then i am a scot, then i am british, then im european, then im part of the free world. I feel no shame in who i am for my own actions. Nor do i feel ashamed to be european. What you do not seem to understand, is there is no sort of european "community" feel, at least in britain. Europe is made of many seperate countries with different governments, and different peoples with different mindsets. There have been countless inter-european wars, and there isnt a single country in europe that would give up their independance to be part of a european state.

Yet you constantly refer to me as a "euro", which i take offence to, because its just like an indian/western asian being called a "paki". It shows ignorance on your part, if you think we all share similar cultural backgrounds and mindsets.

It shows ignorance on the part of Europeans to consider all Americans the same. It shows ignorance on your part, if you think we all share similar cultural backgrounds and mindsets.

I was born in Dallas, Texas. I am a Texan. My parents were born in Texas. They are Texans. (Bush was born in Connecticut, you idiots, and bought a ranch in Texas) I am a U.S. citizen.

Call me an Ami and and I will call you a Euro.

I notice that when I arrive at EU airports they have one line for Euros and one line for non-Euros. Which line do you stand in?

Lump me in one group with Californians and New Yorkers and be assured that I will lump you in one group with the Nazis and the Frogs.

Is that clear?

[Deffeh]

Originally posted by Texan
It shows ignorance on the part of Europeans to consider all Americans the same. It shows ignorance on your part, if you think we all share similar cultural backgrounds and mindsets.

I was born in Dallas, Texas. I am a Texan. My parents were born in Texas. They are Texans. (Bush was born in Connecticut, you idiots, and bought a ranch in Texas) I am a U.S. citizen.

Call me an Ami and and I will call you a Euro.

I notice that when I arrive at EU airports they have one line for Euros and one line for non-Euros. Which line do you stand in?

Lump me in one group with Californians and New Yorkers and be assured that I will lump you in one group with the Nazis and the Frogs.

Is that clear?

First of all, if you think my statement (which i believe to be fair and well worded, imho ofc) is "Ignorant", then call ME ignorant. Not scotland, the uk, or europe. Me. Theres a difference. Also, your racist slurs on the french and germans are not appreciated at the end. I believe theres a clause against that in the rules.

If i wished to refer to canada, the usa, mexico as the same country, i would call you a "north american". Do you feel you have the same mindset as a mexican?

If you dont like being called an american, then i apologise. The fact is, america is a country. The citizens of america are called americans. They have a shared government.

Everyone has different backgrounds and influences. It doesnt mean we cant be categorised. If the state of texas has a different view on iraq for example than the rest of America, let it speak its voice.

The airport thing you mentioned is ridiculous. You know fine well thats to do with passport regulation.

In your final statement, i believe your trying to say "If you lump me with my fellow countrymen, i will lump you with people from different countries but in the same landmass"

I do not wish to flame, so i will simply leave this statement in bold for people to make their own minds up on the value of your statement.

[Phang]

calling you a brazilian = calling us euros.

[Nodrog]

Originally posted by Mong
...is just one of the many voices we hear, as opposed to the US univox.

The Sun does suck though, for ppl who passed some GCSEs :P

M.

The Sun is the most popular newspaper in Britain, I think your argument is flawed.

[Phang]

Originally posted by Nodrog
The Sun is the most popular newspaper in Britain, I think your argument is flawed.

what

[Zither]

Originally posted by Texan

Lump me in one group with Californians and New Yorkers and be assured that I will lump you in one group with the Nazis and the Frogs.

Is that clear?

And you wonder why some members of other countries think that the majority of USA citizens are illinformed?.

Just to refresh your memory the Nazis were beaten in 1945. Should i call you a slave owning racist because of the past history of the USA?

[Grind]

fox is much more centered than cnn.

but then again, it's much more right then cnn, that just shows how far left cnn really is. Hannity and colmes has one conservative, and one huge liberal, and they debate issues.

Orieily, is a news analyst program, he has his opinion, but he always has someone on his show that completely contrasts his opinion, and they debate it.

fox news most definately isn't a joke, and frankly i think it's pretty good.

most americans find bbc biased and anti-american.
most europeans think that cnn/fox is biased and way to pro american.

and around round we go.

[Deathjam]

and now for abit of humour

newsround > *

[Taratang]

Originally posted by Nodrog
The Sun is the most popular newspaper in Britain, I think your argument is flawed.

Doesn't The Mirror outsell The Sun?

[Taratang]

Originally posted by JammyJim
if your a major tv network running a primetime news show disagreeing with the govt is going to be the least likely thing your going to do.

think it through logically.

if you disagree and begin questioning things 'a little too much' and asking uncomfortable questions, the people who tell you whats going on will stop talking.

Govt stops telling the news network whats going on. News network is 'last' to get the story. Ratings fall. etc etc etc

The BBC criticises the govt on a daily basis, and it's publicly owned.

[Zither]

Originally posted by Taratang
Doesn't The Mirror outsell The Sun?

No

[Texan]

Originally posted by Deffeh
First of all, if you think my statement (which i believe to be fair and well worded, imho ofc) is "Ignorant", then call ME ignorant. Not scotland, the uk, or europe. Me. Theres a difference. Also, your racist slurs on the french and germans are not appreciated at the end. I believe theres a clause against that in the rules.

If i wished to refer to canada, the usa, mexico as the same country, i would call you a "north american". Do you feel you have the same mindset as a mexican?

If you dont like being called an american, then i apologise. The fact is, america is a country. The citizens of america are called americans. They have a shared government.

Everyone has different backgrounds and influences. It doesnt mean we cant be categorised. If the state of texas has a different view on iraq for example than the rest of America, let it speak its voice.

The airport thing you mentioned is ridiculous. You know fine well thats to do with passport regulation.

In your final statement, i believe your trying to say "If you lump me with my fellow countrymen, i will lump you with people from different countries but in the same landmass"

I do not wish to flame, so i will simply leave this statement in bold for people to make their own minds up on the value of your statement.

You said this.
It shows ignorance on your part, if you think we all share similar cultural backgrounds and mindsets.

If you think that the United States citizens share similar cultural backgrounds and mindsets, then you have missed something. Are you aware that there are 8 million Muslims in the United States? Do you know that 14 percent (37 million) of Americans are descended from Africans? Not to mention Native Americans, Hispanics and Asian Americans.

I see the EU and USA as simliar governmental organizations. You do not.

I have French and German ancestors. According to the rules of political correctness I do not make slurs when I criticize the German and the French because I am descended from them.

I lived in Mexico for a year. Not the same mindset, but what do you know about it?

Apology accepted. Hi, I'm Texan.

Europe is a union. They have a shared government. The people are called Euros.

Texas has offered to solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. No one seems to care, though.

Passport regulation: The United States does the same thing in many airports. U.S. -- Non-U.S.

EU -- Non-EU

I understand that very well.

[Texan]

Originally posted by Zither
And you wonder why some members of other countries think that the majority of USA citizens are illinformed?.

Just to refresh your memory the Nazis were beaten in 1945. Should i call you a slave owning racist because of the past history of the USA?

Except that my ancestors were slaves. But, OK.

Last time I checked there were neo-nazis in Germany, but no slave owners in the United States.

[wu_trax]

Originally posted by Texan
Last time I checked there were neo-nazis in Germany, but no slave owners in the United States.

you still have your kkk though, and both, the neo-nazis and the kkk have a political influence of close to zero (at least i hope so), so you can very well compare them.

[Zither]

Originally posted by Texan
Except that my ancestors were slaves. But, OK.

That does not matter, i am sure there are some germans who post on these forums who's ancestors were victimes of the nazi goverment. You used nazi to refer to a whole nation, therefore why cannot others refer to you as some part of american history?.

[Gayle29uk]

Originally posted by Texan
Europe is a union. They have a shared government. The people are called Euros.

No, no, a thousand times NO! We (the UK) are a sovereign nation, in certain areas we work with other European countries (i.e. the European Parliament, Court of Human Rights etc) but we are still a sovereign nation. We have control of our own laws, our own army, and our own taxes. If we make laws that the rest of the EU deems inappropriate then we have to choose whether to say 'up yours' or go with the flow, but make no mistake it is a choice.

[Texan]

Originally posted by Zither
That does not matter, i am sure there are some germans who post on these forums who's ancestors were victimes of the nazi goverment. You used nazi to refer to a whole nation, therefore why cannot others refer to you as some part of american history?.

I might have lost track of who called who what first. I am fairly certain, that on these forums, but perhaps not on this particular thread, I was accused of being an American and that I was responsible for the slaughter of native Americans.

LHC said this:
At least America is one nation. Europe is not. It's easier to generalise one country that a continent made up of several.

The United States sees itself as a collection of states joined in a Union. The European Union sees itself as a collection of states joined in a Union. One has a strong central government. The other has a weekk central government. Other than that, what is the difference?

[Gayle29uk]

Originally posted by Texan
The United States sees itself as a collection of states joined in a Union. The European Union sees itself as a collection of states joined in a Union. One has a strong central government. The other has a weekk central government. Other than that, what is the difference?

See my post up the thread.

And for the record we do not see ourselves as a collection of states joined in a union.

[Mong]

Originally posted by Deffeh
the author structured his thread and opinion well, and left it open for others to discuss.

Well thank you sir!

M.

[Texan]

Originally posted by Gayle28uk
No, no, a thousand times NO! We (the UK) are a sovereign nation, in certain areas we work with other European countries (i.e. the European Parliament, Court of Human Rights etc) but we are still a sovereign nation. We have control of our own laws, our own army, and our own taxes. If we make laws that the rest of the EU deems inappropriate then we have to choose whether to say 'up yours' or go with the flow, but make no mistake it is a choice.

Texas has its own laws, its own army and its own taxes. If Texans make laws that the rest of the United States deems inappropriate then we have to choose whether to say 'up yours' or go with the flow, but make no mistake it is a choice.

Last time we made that choice was 1854. The North imposed martial law even though Texas had only joined the Union nine years before, and in 1836 had been turned down in its effort to join the Union. Texas was an independent republic from 1836 to 1845.

edit: 1936 to 1836

[Gayle29uk]

Originally posted by Texan
Texas has its own laws, its own army and its own taxes. If Texans make laws that the rest of the United States deems inappropriate then we have to choose whether to say 'up yours' or go with the flow, but make no mistake it is a choice.

Last time we made that choice was 1854. The North imposed martial law even though Texas had only joined the Union nine years before, and in 1936 had been turned down in its effort to join the Union. Texas was an independent republic from 1836 to 1845.

I'm (not in the detail you probably are I admit) aware of the history of the 'Lone Star State', that doesn't change the fact that fi the President and Congress say 'do this' tomorrow you can't go 'up yours!'. As for your own army, while most (all?) US states have their own 'home guard' units there's no such thing as the 'Texas Marine Corps' or the 'Texas Rangers'. The US has one army (no fifth army ****e please, it's all under the same command), one air force, and one navy. The EU does not, as evidenced by the fact that the UK government are supporting you on Iraq whereas the majority of the rest of Europe is not. We don't negotiate with Texas, we negotiate with the USA. You negotiate with the UK, you don't negotiate with the EU. See my point now? The EU is not a unified political body and possibly (probably?) never will be.

[lokken]

The BBC in general reports what goes on, and leaves the reader/viewer/listener to form his own opinion rather than offering its own.

I like the BBC.

[Neferti]

Originally posted by lokken
The BBC in general reports what goes on, and leaves the reader/viewer/listener to form his own opinion rather than offering its own.

I like the BBC.

yep
and i listen to the Jeremy Vine show on radio 2 quite often... my friends think i am odd cos of this but it is very informative stuff!


just the other day they had IDS on saying why we should lock up all asylum seekers... he sounded like a bit of an idiot (as usual...) but still good stuff! (the show i mean, not his policies!)

as for those people saying EU = USA, well that's just not true. The EU MAY one day become a 'U S of E' type organisation but for now it is JUST an economic union, basically... a good example of how the EU is different to the USA is that some countries DO choose to ignore EU laws and ideas such as the Euro. Britain and (i think) Denmark remain outside the 'eurozone' as we call it... yet you say we are all one country??

the main argument against the EU from the conservative point of view seems to be the sovereignty issue. I cannot argue against the idea that Europe is (at the moment) evolving towards a full Union but i can say that we are far, far from it today...

most people in Britain can't even name the leaders of the European Parliament or their local MEPs...

[IncubusGod]

/me puts his hand up

Err this whole US vrs UK media thing seem's to have been debated by mostly if not exclusively US and UK residents.

Being from Ireland I get both countries new media and to be honest neither are totally impartial,not even the (glorified on this thread)BBC at times.

The US TV media always seemed to be quite reserved at any rate,more sedate reporting and condencing of stories has seemed to be the norm for years.
The print media is quite similar to most print media around the world (broadsheets anyway),they tend to go more indepth however are prone to political infulences.

The UK media is quite similar,Sky News is part of the whole Rupert Murdock empire and hence it tends to be infulenced by agenda's alot.It does have a good deal of good reporting however it subscribes to the tabloid ideal of whipping up a story that may not deserve it or putting a certain spin on things to grab ppl's attention.

The BBC does tend to be more independant than most new media however it too isnt beyond some one sided presentation of facts.

To be perfectly honest,both sides are pretty much similar.I think the reason europeans percieve US news media to be more sugar coated is the way it is presented,it's a different style of production.Ad's are more frequently seen etc...

Though even Dan Rather had critised his inability to report or critisie the US goverment or any of the operations in afganistan in the wake of September 11th...

However,there is major anti-war sentiment building up and most EU and european nations dont want war with Iraq,watching US news coverage,that fact isn't being presented as much as maybe should be.

BTW Texan referring to the Germans as Nazi's and the French as Frog's are racial slurs and you may say your ancestors were those nationalities but it doesnt change the fact that you are not German,not Freanch and unleashing racial slurs on the boards to provoke more anti-american sentiment so as to justifiy your own attitudes towards europe

[Nodrog]

Originally posted by Gayle28uk
And for the record we do not see ourselves as a collection of states joined in a union.

Say that in 15 years time.

[xtrasyn]

Originally posted by Nodrog
Say that in 15 years time.

I have a feeling you are right.

[Deffeh]

europe will not be a country in 15 years time.

[Neferti]

Originally posted by Deffeh
europe will not be a country in 15 years time.

it could happen, doesn't mean that ALL european nations will join the 'USE' but it's not outside the realm of possibility that some will... i doubt Britain would join any such endeavour within the next 30 years, if at all... but that's beside the point of the thread

the BBC can be biased. But most certainly not to the same extent as the vast majority of the media. And Sky News? I don't think i know ANYONE who watches that...

[wu_trax]

Originally posted by Deffeh
europe will not be a country in 15 years time.

it will be, sooner or later
(hopefully not that way though )

[Neferti]

Originally posted by wu_trax
it will be, sooner or later
(hopefully not that way though )

it MAY sooner or later

what does the caption say?

[wu_trax]

Originally posted by Neferti
it MAY sooner or later

what does the caption say?

cartoon of the day or something like that
(no, i dont speak much french)

[Neferti]

Originally posted by wu_trax
cartoon of the day or something like that
(no, i dont speak much french)

you probably speak more than me i know 2 or 3 words!

[wu_trax]

Originally posted by Neferti
you probably speak more than me i know 2 or 3 words!

http://babel.altavista.com/translate.dyn

[Mong]

Icy makes a very valid contribution... what do people who are NOT UK or US think of this?

Btw, can we stick to the original thread please? We appear to be splitting in two directions; the original, and one about the UK/Euro/Sovereign thing.

Ta

Hehe... this is a 100 post thread - do I get an award for starting it?

M.

[Neferti]

Originally posted by Mong

Hehe... this is a 100 post thread - do I get an award for starting it?

M.

i think NOW it is a 100 post thread...