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Unread 9 Jan 2015, 08:37   #201
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Yeah ive suspected this for 10 rounds
lol
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Unread 9 Jan 2015, 09:07   #202
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

If Xans are teaming with Etd Fr then its the only ship they have to build out of Fr, and if they are that worried about cr/bs then they will build 50k bombers. They can sink 50% of their value into Fi/co and be basiclly immune to Co/fr/De attacks. Fi is hard for every fleet to stop so building around being able to stop Fi will just cause you to spread too much value so you rely on ingal rangers or wraith/lancer fakes.
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Unread 9 Jan 2015, 09:15   #203
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

My basis for liking Ter DE (I'd also build some wyvs and war frigs for faking and to help vs fi incs) is that there's always going to be other juicier targets out there, and as long as I don't get too fat I should be able to avoid most incs.

There's going to be few DE-centric planets(as far as I know), so even though it might seem realistic to you that someone spends 50% of their res on FR->DE it just doesn't seem realistic to me, primarily due to the fact that that player will grow tired of being farmed by fi and co.

It's just not worth it to roid the few DE planets out there "solo".
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Unread 9 Jan 2015, 09:16   #204
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
http://game.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=8kozt8ynae1jbha

Like this.

Xans only ever have to build fireblades to attack with Fr, etd team ups cover all other eventualitys. Also since you are attacking into De based forts they wont have fi or Bs ingal which can stop your Fr attacks and even if they did defend with Fi wraiths fire before everything except banshee.

So i ask you how are De forts Viable when Fireblades are that effective. Give my calc doesnt factor in value/size/xp which only makes the calc better for the Xan since Value only HURTS the terran side of the calc. This is by the way ONE Xan attacking 1 Ter De planet not counting fakes and or team ups. ALSO Banshee do fire before Ter and Zik De meaning that you would also have to factor in the Banshee fakes Along with Possible Defender Fakes as well because lets face it any compentant Etd player thats in a fr/fi Alliance is going to Cov op Fi pods to team with the Xans Fi.
Did butcher take over Tias forum account??

If anything anti de will be the least built of the 3 fr ships and still tbh is any Xan worth their weight gonna land that?? No is the answer
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Unread 9 Jan 2015, 09:19   #205
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Also as the universe Stands:
Terran 82 (17.3%)
Cathaar 111 (23.5%)
Xandathrii 113 (23.9%)
Zikonian 41 (8.7%)
Eitraides 126 (26.6%)

You have gotten your wish IsilX you've made another round of stats with a totally unplayable race and the community agrees with you 8.7% Zik. All that it means is that Bs and Fi can run more unchecked because of lack of Rogues and Cutlass. Which I am sure everyone is happy with since Bs/fi seems to be pretty popular.
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Unread 9 Jan 2015, 09:24   #206
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

True enough, I'm disappointed that so few people have gone zik*, although I still believe that zik aint bad. Had I been playing active in an alliance this round I'd have gone zik and shown that co + crbs aint a bad setup for zik.
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Unread 9 Jan 2015, 09:25   #207
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Did butcher take over Tias forum account??

If anything anti de will be the least built of the 3 fr ships and still tbh is any Xan worth their weight gonna land that?? No is the answer

Honestly Xan's dont even EVER have to build Fr they could just Build Fi + spectres and they would prolly do just fine no one else has effective ways to stop Fi baring ingal War Frigates. Sure they are open to cr/bs attacks But then again everyone is open to cr/bs attacks as roach/guardian/wyvern out init almost every fr/de defending vs them and there will not be any rogues out their to stop them.
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Unread 9 Jan 2015, 09:27   #208
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
True enough, I'm disappointed that so few people have gone zik*, although I still believe that zik aint bad.
If you believe that zik aint that bad then go zik with me and prove me that you can and will do well this round given current race %'s. Because I doubt you will see more than 5 ziks inside t100.
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Unread 9 Jan 2015, 09:35   #209
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

As I said, had I been playing active in an alliance I'd have gone zik. As it is, I'm gonna be an inactive allianceless bum so I have to go the setup that, on paper, will get me the least amount of incs.
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Unread 9 Jan 2015, 10:44   #210
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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as i said, had i been playing active in an alliance i'd have gone zik. As it is, i'm gonna be an inactive allianceless bum so i have to go the setup that, on paper, will get me the least amount of incs.
de??
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Unread 9 Jan 2015, 10:52   #211
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

obviously
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Unread 9 Jan 2015, 12:05   #212
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

I think we need to clear something up before we move on. Zik is playable. Just because it isn't the all singing all dancing race that Tia (the renowned zik player) wants it to be or the perfect foil in basic ally strategy that butcher with his basic thoughts/make believe on ally play wants it to be does not make it bad. Zik is great if you are allianceless (like 1/3rd of players) it's great if your a galaxy>ally player (like most the best players are nowadays). It has a 3 ship spam like its de counterpart Terran and I for one think out of those 41 players the ones that go DE WILL enjoy their planet and that is the most important thing.
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Unread 9 Jan 2015, 16:26   #213
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Heard Apprime quit, and with them quitting will be their cousins.
So expect that the planet count will shrink with 150-200 planets
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Unread 9 Jan 2015, 16:33   #214
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Apprime always plays
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Unread 9 Jan 2015, 22:44   #215
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Would have been funny if that 10mil value/score guy was Zik DE.
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Unread 9 Jan 2015, 22:48   #216
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Would have been funny if that 10mil value/score guy was Zik DE.
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Unread 15 Jan 2015, 12:27   #217
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

I know it's early days but how is De working in this universe. Ppl said it was awful but there seems a few terrans and ziks doing well (according to Kia). Are they all cr/bs?? What are attackers thinking when they have to attack them on raids??
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Unread 15 Jan 2015, 13:11   #218
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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I know it's early days but how is De working in this universe. Ppl said it was awful but there seems a few terrans and ziks doing well (according to Kia). Are they all cr/bs?? What are attackers thinking when they have to attack them on raids??
Wich Kia are you refering to, and what univers we talking about?

Zik/Ter got 14% in top100, yet 28% of all the planet in univers
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Unread 15 Jan 2015, 15:52   #219
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

There are limits to how much stats can set a race back. If ur active and can get def you could win any round with the most shit of ships.
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Unread 15 Jan 2015, 16:08   #220
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
I know it's early days but how is De working in this universe. Ppl said it was awful but there seems a few terrans and ziks doing well (according to Kia). Are they all cr/bs?? What are attackers thinking when they have to attack them on raids??
I think some Ziks may be going CO, but yeah, besides those, all CR/BS

Really, De can only be used for def or some sneaky BS/CR fakes.
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Unread 15 Jan 2015, 16:34   #221
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

usually when a class is bad it can be cool going it cause few people get anti of that class, but since most people are fr, and most anti fr ships fire at de aswell that doesnt really apply.
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Unread 15 Jan 2015, 16:38   #222
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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usually when a class is bad it can be cool going it cause few people get anti of that class, but since most people are fr, and most anti fr ships fire at de aswell that doesnt really apply.
This usualy applies, but not with stats like this.
Its allready been pointed out that DE is not buildable in these stats, a lot due to the strength of FR and the EMP eff of the defender ship. Its like 200%+ eff on DE no?
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Unread 15 Jan 2015, 16:59   #223
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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This usualy applies, but not with stats like this.
Its allready been pointed out that DE is not buildable in these stats, a lot due to the strength of FR and the EMP eff of the defender ship. Its like 200%+ eff on DE no?
So you can't physically build de in these stats??? I have seen the defender in combat against a zik de and it sucked balls tbh

I agree with Plaguu tho, it's more the player than the stats. I get it not being an alliance choice but maybe for lone wolves it could be useful.

I wonder if there is any zik de planets out there except me , I need build help
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Unread 15 Jan 2015, 17:24   #224
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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So you can't physically build de in these stats??? I have seen the defender in combat against a zik de and it sucked balls tbh

I agree with Plaguu tho, it's more the player than the stats. I get it not being an alliance choice but maybe for lone wolves it could be useful.

I wonder if there is any zik de planets out there except me , I need build help
If you think 200% EMP eff sucks in stats where all killing ships prefire DE basicly, you surely need more help than just build help
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Unread 15 Jan 2015, 18:16   #225
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

I've gone Ter DE, but I'm not very active, hopefully I won't get too many incs.
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Unread 15 Jan 2015, 18:33   #226
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Whats your coords? so we can keep track of your progress?
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Unread 15 Jan 2015, 20:28   #227
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Sh7 was that aimed at me or Isil?

Bitcher i apologise i confused the Defender with the Dealer. Im not sure why an off roiding class ship with EMP affects me, maybe you could enlighten me?
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Unread 15 Jan 2015, 23:45   #228
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Sh7 was that aimed at me or Isil?

Bitcher i apologise i confused the Defender with the Dealer. Im not sure why an off roiding class ship with EMP affects me, maybe you could enlighten me?
Is there really such a thing as 'off roiding class' with the ease of shipstealing cov-ops? But still, even with 200% eff i doubt it will matter a whole lot against a Zik DE tank player.

However, some people clearly do not get that you can achieve a top 50 planet by playing a defensive tank race with relative ease. Ofc Zik DE isn't an alliance choice, but it is damned nice to have certain 'support' planets in your alliance that purely def. In this FR/BS dominated round Zik (and Ter) DE tank defence players can be perfect for such support planets as they will be able to make the ETA on most def calls. And ters that have some relatively cheap Harpies can even fake those tank DE fleets quite easily. Unfortunately enough, such advanced tactics seem to be out of the grasp of the most vocal participants in the stats discussion lately which make most recent sets rather boring in setup, and i fear this will go for all sets in the (near) future.
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Unread 15 Jan 2015, 23:55   #229
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

It won't let me +rep you until I 'spread it around' but I'm no slut so sorry.

Completely agree with what you say and as I pointed out earlier here the one dimensional thought process of some people here is what causes stats to be so boring.

These are a good set of stats, you just aren't creative enough to use them to their potential
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Unread 16 Jan 2015, 00:28   #230
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Is there really such a thing as 'off roiding class' with the ease of shipstealing cov-ops? But still, even with 200% eff i doubt it will matter a whole lot against a Zik DE tank player.

However, some people clearly do not get that you can achieve a top 50 planet by playing a defensive tank race with relative ease. Ofc Zik DE isn't an alliance choice, but it is damned nice to have certain 'support' planets in your alliance that purely def. In this FR/BS dominated round Zik (and Ter) DE tank defence players can be perfect for such support planets as they will be able to make the ETA on most def calls. And ters that have some relatively cheap Harpies can even fake those tank DE fleets quite easily. Unfortunately enough, such advanced tactics seem to be out of the grasp of the most vocal participants in the stats discussion lately which make most recent sets rather boring in setup, and i fear this will go for all sets in the (near) future.
Id like to see someone finish top50 with zik DE tank this round.
You and Kaiba are both so far off in your assumtion on what would work with these stats.
Most allies has avoiding going DE for a reason, its simply not doable.
The only alliance with loads of zik this round is p3ng, and im pretty sure they are gonna pay pretty heavy for this.
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Unread 16 Jan 2015, 08:02   #231
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Noone has said a PURE DE alliance strategy is viable, what we have said is that having SOME alliancemembers go DE can be VERY useful. Going DE is also a VERY GOOD way to play for inactive players or people without an alliance.
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Unread 16 Jan 2015, 08:23   #232
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Isil reread.
I didnt mean avoided going full DE, but going DE at all
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Unread 16 Jan 2015, 09:35   #233
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by Influence View Post
Is there really such a thing as 'off roiding class' with the ease of shipstealing cov-ops?
Yes, there is. You may be able to steal enough pods to achieve good roid cap, but you still need combat ships to back that up. Your own race's ships in that class must provide significant coverage against all classes that fire at it. Ter Fr and Cr are not viable roiding classes, and the init on the Fi is too high to do much of anything on offense even if it does cover all classes.

On a sidenote, stats on how many people cov op enough pods to max cap on, say, an 800 roid planet would be interesting to have!



As for the wider discussion, it's pointless. "Winning" it will not cause a change in the stats, at this point. Just wait and see, claim victory when the round is over.
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Unread 16 Jan 2015, 12:23   #234
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Isil reread.
I didnt mean avoided going full DE, but going DE at all
I think you haven't fully calced de tbh.

Ter or zik de are absolute tank planets this round. But as mz said, time will tell.

I think t50 might require some effort, I'm yet to see how much xp is nerfed
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Unread 16 Jan 2015, 12:49   #235
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Isnt Terran DE just the better version of zik DE tho.
Sure for the basic idea of explaining the advantage of DE, you can use both DE. But Terran DE is by far the better option.
So let's use that one as example for explaning it to Butcher
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Unread 16 Jan 2015, 15:24   #236
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
I think you haven't fully calced de tbh.

Ter or zik de are absolute tank planets this round. But as mz said, time will tell.

I think t50 might require some effort, I'm yet to see how much xp is nerfed
what does this have to do with xp nerf?
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Unread 16 Jan 2015, 19:02   #237
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

He's asking how much effort top 50 takes. Last round, playing for XP took less effort than playing for value. XP is nerfed now, so that might (HAHA!) no longer be true.
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Unread 16 Jan 2015, 21:15   #238
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
He's asking how much effort top 50 takes. Last round, playing for XP took less effort than playing for value. XP is nerfed now, so that might (HAHA!) no longer be true.
Yeah, perhaps that building ships, and only init roids might be the new cool way to play PA.
I hope Isil and Kaiba prove me wrong, being the only two DE players in the univers, if either of them would end top100-50, they would proved all alliAnce hcs out therewrong
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Unread 16 Jan 2015, 22:37   #239
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Yeah, perhaps that building ships, and only init roids might be the new cool way to play PA.
I hope Isil and Kaiba prove me wrong, being the only two DE players in the univers, if either of them would end top100-50, they would proved all alliAnce hcs out therewrong
Why do you keep bringing up alliance hcs??

Everyone is repeatedly saying to you that we know that its not an alliance strat. Its a lone wolf strategy. Its for that guy who wants a nice coasty round.

Also if im the only person building Zik DE in the universe i think i could land my 165k DE fleet anywhere... that is how much there is in the Universe right now and i only own 20k of it so there is atleast 8 other people rocking Zik DE right now, and loving every moment id imagine.

You still havent explained to me why Zik DE is bad for me to play, i have been told im a horrible target to try and attack even with a 2 man teamup (that is not an invitation for incs!) so i cant get why your opinion is so opposite to almost everyone else. One side has to be wrong and tbh im gonna lean toward the side of experience on this one... instead of yours
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Unread 16 Jan 2015, 22:48   #240
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

My gal got hit last night, I got no incs. TERRAN DE FORTRESS lives on for now.
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Unread 17 Jan 2015, 00:32   #241
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Same!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shhhhhhh View Post
Isnt Terran DE just the better version of zik DE tho.
Sure for the basic idea of explaining the advantage of DE, you can use both DE. But Terran DE is by far the better option.
So let's use that one as example for explaning it to Butcher
Pretty much why I would've liked some simple targeting changes, now Ter De does everything Zik De does a tiny bit better.
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Unread 17 Jan 2015, 01:19   #242
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Id like to see someone finish top50 with zik DE tank this round.
You and Kaiba are both so far off in your assumtion on what would work with these stats.
Most allies has avoiding going DE for a reason, its simply not doable.
The only alliance with loads of zik this round is p3ng, and im pretty sure they are gonna pay pretty heavy for this.
Mind you, i didn't say top 50 was required from an alliance point of view. All that is required is 'enough' value to make it hard for attacks made out of 1-3 planets to land. As such i would call top 100 value at the end 'viable' from the view of an alliance HC i guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Yes, there is. You may be able to steal enough pods to achieve good roid cap, but you still need combat ships to back that up. Your own race's ships in that class must provide significant coverage against all classes that fire at it. Ter Fr and Cr are not viable roiding classes, and the init on the Fi is too high to do much of anything on offense even if it does cover all classes.

On a sidenote, stats on how many people cov op enough pods to max cap on, say, an 800 roid planet would be interesting to have!



As for the wider discussion, it's pointless. "Winning" it will not cause a change in the stats, at this point. Just wait and see, claim victory when the round is over.
True enough, there are definitely some that aren't too viable. Defender with just FI pods being one of them most likely, yet still a fi team might actually be happy to take someone along that has a load of defenders and some fi pods. Same with ter FR for that matter, not so much for ter CR i guess, but i imagine a xan with broads and CR pods would be welcome again. As a strategy for a planet however, i wouldn't encourage it as an alliance HC, but for 1 or 2 planets in this universe it might be a fun way to change up their round a bit.
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Unread 17 Jan 2015, 07:38   #243
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

I like that Butcher still isnt saying WHY Zik or Ter DE isnt doable. I think he just doesnt have a reason why and is trying to be cool for the sake of it.

If you can butcher can you please tell us exactly why DE is unplayable, without using the Defender or completely skewed setups to prove your point, cheers
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Unread 17 Jan 2015, 09:36   #244
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

cause every race and every class have atleast 1 ship that preinits you, nothing is unplayable tho, its just harder.
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Unread 17 Jan 2015, 10:05   #245
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Outinited my emp, oh noes.

Soon enough every ter will have enough warfrigs and wyvs to make them "immune" from fi* and de incs meaning they only have to build three ships rest of round to be covered vs every class. Not going to be easy to punch through that value.


*except from big etd/xan teamups
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Unread 17 Jan 2015, 12:05   #246
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

ter bs can still solo land you, cat cr planets will still be able to solo you, etd bs can still solo land you. Are they likely to hit other targets yes but it wont be very hard for them to get through.

Im guessing there isn't very many going etd fi but if there is they will have no problem landing terran.

But yes terran is ofc a far better choice than zik with both better ships and better race attributes.

And going full value terran is perfectly reasonable to secure a t100 spot(this round and any round)
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Unread 17 Jan 2015, 13:39   #247
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

What, how can they solo land the ter? You basically either need ~all your value in wyvs/guards/etc or be a LOT bigger than the ter de planet?
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Unread 17 Jan 2015, 18:34   #248
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

And with so much fr in the universe you put alot of ur value in the anti fr ship. you need around half of the de value in wyverns to land, and abit more for emp.
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Unread 18 Jan 2015, 00:04   #249
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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And with so much fr in the universe you put alot of ur value in the anti fr ship. you need around half of the de value in wyverns to land, and abit more for emp.
No as a DE planet you put all your value into DE, he may have slightly more anti FR than anti Fi for example but thats due to the nature of de's powers vs a lesser class compared to an equal one. The fact a Ter DE or Zik DE planet has 100% value in DE and 'most' attackers will have 40-60% in an attack fleet split across multiple targetting ships means that forts like DE become very very hard to land on without taking a loss and no one in this game likes taking a loss, especially on attacks
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Unread 18 Jan 2015, 04:17   #250
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
No as a DE planet you put all your value into DE, he may have slightly more anti FR than anti Fi for example but thats due to the nature of de's powers vs a lesser class compared to an equal one. The fact a Ter DE or Zik DE planet has 100% value in DE and 'most' attackers will have 40-60% in an attack fleet split across multiple targetting ships means that forts like DE become very very hard to land on without taking a loss and no one in this game likes taking a loss, especially on attacks
Give out your coords, and we will quickly find out how hard its to land a DE planet
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