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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 14:15   #1
Starbucks
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Angry My Opinion has changed

Just heard on the BBC News something along the following

Interviewer: The Goverment is proposing allowing the Army to cross the picket line to use the Red Fire Engines for the 8-day strike

Fire Birgade Union Guy: We wouldnt want that in fact that could make things a lot worse

Interviewer: Surely there will be no problem, it may help save lives

Fire Birgade Union Guy: Yes but its our equipment and its very technical.



Essentially what they are trying to say is "We dont want them to use our equipment, because if they do it will show that it isnt a technical job and we wont get money"

They are in it for the money, they dont care about the people

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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 14:20   #2
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I dont agree with this strike......yes they should get paid more but not 40%...11% is fine! A pay rise is not worth peoples lives, I cant see how they can say it is.
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 14:23   #3
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I personally think they should make the firefighters join the army, then make the firebrigade an offshoot of the army.

ARMY ARMY ARMY ARMY
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 15:01   #4
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The fire brigade not allowing the army to use the equiptment is the most homo thing of the year

All they want
is more deaths
aka more headlines
aka more money.

If the army can do their best with the Green Goddesses, why the **** shouldnt they be allowed the modern equipment?



Blair should Cross the picket line

Blair should call the firemens bluff


If so many firemen hadnt died in sept 11, there is NO WAY the firemen would ask for 40%, and NO WAY the public would stand for it.
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 16:19   #5
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I think they're losing public support now anyway tbh and rightly so! they were offered a reasonable comprimise and refused it so fk em
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 16:25   #6
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If I was a fireman, I'd pose for playgirl, show the world my firehose
that'd get me lots of money
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 16:26   #7
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hate to say this as i dont agree with the strike either but the 11% thing was actually split over 2 years, so the actual offer was 4% this year and then 7% the next, quite frankly, i think that their pay demand is absurd, i just wanted to make sure that ppl had their facts straight before they went off on one
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 16:26   #8
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A pity bonfire nite has passed, or we could burn fireman sam dolls....

Aka public enemy number 1 :eek:
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 16:35   #9
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I think 40% is absurd.

But I do think (cos I know some firefighters) that things need changing - a lot of the time they're paid to just BE there. But having spent some time in a station for my DofE, I know that when it gets busy it's pretty insane.

Surely the logical thing is to give say, 3% OVER inflation for the next 3 years? So we're talking about 6% each year, which will work out closer to 20% at the end of three years. Of course at the same time, modernise and streamline the way it works?

Or am I just too sensible to be taken seriously?

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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 16:44   #10
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im all for independant enquiries.

The enquiry said 11% and reforms

So give them 15%



Didnt the enquiry say "btw, although you deserve a raise, you also deserve a kick up the ass and be more efficient if your to get it" in summary?


Public support is going. The government would be unlucky yo lose out to such awful propaganda


NO kudos to the fire service
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 17:18   #11
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I dont understand.

The equpiment isnt "theirs", it's publically owned. They have no claim on it whatsoever.
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 17:31   #12
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Assuming these army men are capable of using it, they should be allowed to do so.
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 20:07   #13
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Originally posted by roadrunner_0
hate to say this as i dont agree with the strike either but the 11% thing was actually split over 2 years, so the actual offer was 4% this year and then 7% the next, quite frankly, i think that their pay demand is absurd, i just wanted to make sure that ppl had their facts straight before they went off on one
the 40% would be split over a few years as well
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 20:17   #14
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From all the strikes i've seen on the TV over the last few days the majority of the fire fighters seem to be aged between 20-30 and can't have been in the job for more then a few years and you can't tell me the pay package wasn't explained to them when they applied for the job so why all of a sudden when the unions have a gripe with the government they think the pay structure is unfair.
The Police do a job just as dangerous and pick up less pay and they guys covering for the firemen pick up about 4k p.a less then them.
I don't blame the government or the firemen for this mess it is all down to the FBU!
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 20:41   #15
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They deserve the pay rise. As do most public sector workers... police, ambulance men, nurses, etc... they should have organised a mass strike across the board.

And I support them... they do deserve more money.

"you can't tell me the pay package wasn't explained to them when they applied for the job"

I think, like teaching or medicine, firefighting is a vocation... you join up out of public spirit, not because of the pay-package. That only comes later.. and they do deserve more money.
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 20:44   #16
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Originally posted by Lord Boredom


you join up out of public spirit, not because of the pay-package.
Then stop whining and get back to work.
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 20:44   #17
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I hope your home burns down and the green goddesses don't arrive in time. Will you still support the strikes then?
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 20:45   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lord Boredom
They deserve the pay rise. As do most public sector workers... police, ambulance men, nurses, etc... they should have organised a mass strike across the board.

And I support them... they do deserve more money.

"you can't tell me the pay package wasn't explained to them when they applied for the job"

I think, like teaching or medicine, firefighting is a vocation... you join up out of public spirit, not because of the pay-package. That only comes later.. and they do deserve more money.
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 20:59   #19
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Originally posted by Iniluki
11% extra on top of there current wage isnt worth their lives.
Then go find an office job and leave it to people who care not people who are willing to hold us to ransom!
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 21:02   #20
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i agree with iniluki


i'm sorry but £15,000-£23,000 is not nearly enough for the job they do

the fire service are available 24/7 365 days a year

its not until your in a fire that u realise quite what life would be like without them


imagine september 11th if there had been no bloody firemen.. the fire spreads and take out more of NY


or sandhurst chemical disaster during the floods last year.. the chemicals spread and kill a great deal of gloucestershire

This government asked me to pay extra taz, extra NI.. and told me it would go to the public services... well the firemen didn't get it.. the hospitals didn't and neither did the police.. i thinks it about time it did
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 21:04   #21
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No, i don't put price tags on peoples lives, the simple fact of the matter is if you want big money dont work in the public sector, i do think they deserve more then what they are getting but there is NO EXCUSE for holding us to ransom costing innocents their lives just for a pay rise.

Do you think a few innocent lives for a pay rise is fair???
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 21:08   #22
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well.. obviously u forget when the firemen die


they give up their lives in order to save ours

friends of mine are firefighters


when the MFi in gloucester set on fire a few years back
we was out for over 15 hours with 49 other firemen


if they hadn't been there 1/2 of gloucetser owuld have burnt down.. and more lives would be lost

6 men gave their lives in that fire.. no innocents died

because of the underpaid fireservice
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 21:11   #23
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Originally posted by LHC
Assuming these army men are capable of using it, they should be allowed to do so.
My uncle's a fireman himself, and even he finds the 'it takes ages to train' lark a load of ********. Yes, it might take a few months to become fully trained, but to train military personnel to the standard necessary for most emergencies would take 2, 3 days at most.
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 21:12   #24
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You didn't answer the question, everyone knows the fire service do a top class job and deserve more money but people are dieing in order for the FBU to try and prove a point.
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 21:16   #25
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So basically your putting a price of £20K a year on there lives? Just because you think they should accept it?
they knew what they were getting into, they knew how much they would be paid. I will agree that they need a pay rise but 40% is a very big leap and to just let people die and property to get destroyed just for money is just plain irresponsible and selfish. Its not like they're poor fs
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 21:18   #26
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How else can they make people see what they do unless they stop doing it?
I just hope its not one of our relatives houses next!
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 21:20   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by XA Megatron
You didn't answer the question, everyone knows the fire service do a top class job and deserve more money but people are dieing in order for the FBU to try and prove a point.
so who's died?

and you have to seriously consider the "if you don't like the pay, go work somewhere else" argument extremely dangerous. They've taken the first step already. Men who risk their lives want to be able to support their families.
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 21:21   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chrism


My uncle's a fireman himself, and even he finds the 'it takes ages to train' lark a load of ********. Yes, it might take a few months to become fully trained, but to train military personnel to the standard necessary for most emergencies would take 2, 3 days at most.
few months? More like 5years.

Now personally I feel 11% is a decent amount, but the modernisation needs to be looked at. Alot of Firefighters currently have Second jobs because of the few hours they work, and the government is trying to put restrictions on this.

As for the using the Fire trucks, Personally Im all for it, but there *is* a certain safety issue. Would *you* feel comfortable using high powered cutting equipment to get people out of car crash's,etc? They do train hard to keep themselves safe. However the issue is more about pride than anything else - They worked hard to get there jobs(Remember the 'hero' factor means everyone wants to be a fireman) and now there being taken away - And in doing so the government gives the impression of being quite ruthless, giving the impression they wont give in.

Hopefully at the end of all this the Fire service will have a no strike agreement.
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 21:23   #29
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so who's died?

and you have to seriously consider the "if you don't like the pay, go work somewhere else" argument extremely dangerous. They've taken the first step already. Men who risk their lives want to be able to support their families.
So far 3 people have died in Fires, but noone knows if that was because of the strike or not.

Generally people are more vigilant about fire safety during a strike tho, if the planned 8 day strikes go ahead things may change.
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 21:24   #30
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The fire fighters are terrorists in disguise holding the country to ransom.
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 21:26   #31
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so who's died?

and you have to seriously consider the "if you don't like the pay, go work somewhere else" argument extremely dangerous. They've taken the first step already. Men who risk their lives want to be able to support their families.
2 people died in the midlands alone last night due to the slow responce time of the green goddesses.
Dont get me wrong they do deserve more money but they aren't exactly in poverty as i make do on my 15k salary, if i felt i deserved more i would ask for it (i dont) if i didn't get it i would look else where. It's not like they HAVE to be fire men, if they think it's not worth the risk then leave it to people who do.
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 21:26   #32
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ok do the math

start on a mid wage for a fireman(after about 10yrs)

£18,000

11% is only £1980 more per year

take off tax and NI
leaves
£1276


devide by 12... thats only £100 extra month.. thats nise not worth the life of a fireman who has dedicated his life to saving others...

your saying £100 is equal to a man giving up his life to save others


where as $40% is about £350 a month... i'm sorry but thats still not much better

but its on the right lines


i presonally, and i alot of people i know have now problems with the fireman being paid DOUBLE what they get now.. its only right for what they do

and its what i pay my taxes for
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 21:31   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by Karmulian
ok do the math

start on a mid wage for a fireman(after about 10yrs)

£18,000

11% is only £1980 more per year

take off tax and NI
leaves
£1276


devide by 12... thats only £100 extra month.. thats nise not worth the life of a fireman who has dedicated his life to saving others...

your saying £100 is equal to a man giving up his life to save others


where as $40% is about £350 a month... i'm sorry but thats still not much better

but its on the right lines


i presonally, and i alot of people i know have now problems with the fireman being paid DOUBLE what they get now.. its only right for what they do

and its what i pay my taxes for
the basic salary for a fireman is 21k according to most news reports
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 21:32   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by XA Megatron


2 people died in the midlands alone last night due to the slow responce time of the green goddesses.
Dont get me wrong they do deserve more money but they aren't exactly in poverty as i make do on my 15k salary, if i felt i deserved more i would ask for it (i dont) if i didn't get it i would look else where.
All case's of deaths last night had the same response time for a normal fire truck - Dont try to blame every death on the FBU, noone knows if they would have died or not.

I dont see how you can try and present them as devils in this case, they *do* risk there lives for us on a frequent basis, and have said are willing to cross the picket lines in a cases of big fires.

While im sure *some* of them are in it for the money, none of them want people to die. And remember, if all the firemen decided to just "look elsewhere" we'd be slightly screwed, for a while atleast.
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 21:33   #35
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How much to firemen get paid in America, just out of interest. If its more i'd advise our firemen to move over to america for work. That might make the government sit up and take even more notice.
the deaths of civilians is notice enough

this eight day strike they have planned is ****ing disgraceful
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 21:33   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Iniluki
How much to firemen get paid in America, just out of interest. If its more i'd advise our firemen to move over to america for work. That might make the government sit up and take even more notice.
Around $30k I beleive(Altho Im not sure where I got that figure from, so dont take it as gospel).

The FBU's biggest problem is that most papers have taken the side of the government, bar the mirror. Without public support they have no chance of getting anywhere near 40% and without support of the papers public support will go.
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 21:35   #37
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starting salary for a fulltime fireman is 15k

hence why i took a mid range
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 21:35   #38
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Originally posted by Haer


All case's of deaths last night had the same response time for a normal fire truck - Dont try to blame every death on the FBU, noone knows if they would have died or not.
remember that these trucks have no/very basic modern apparatus!
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 21:35   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Iniluki
How much to firemen get paid in America, just out of interest. If its more i'd advise our firemen to move over to america for work. That might make the government sit up and take even more notice.
depends on where you're from, but anywhere from $25k to $40k a year...considering cost equivilancy, you can just change the monetary signs, since the cost-of-living seems exactly the same in hte UK and US.
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 21:36   #40
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Originally posted by Karmulian
starting salary for a fulltime fireman is 15k

hence why i took a mid range
do you mean a trainee firefighter ?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2341283.stm
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 21:37   #41
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remember that these trucks have no/very basic modern apparatus!
Even modern equipment has its limitations. Most of the modern equipment is more towards the Car crash side of things(This is the FBU's biggest worry apparently as far as public safety goes).
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 21:37   #42
XA Megatron
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Originally posted by Haer


All case's of deaths last night had the same response time for a normal fire truck - Dont try to blame every death on the FBU, noone knows if they would have died or not.

One of the people who died last night lived less then a 2 minute drive from the nearest fire station but the green goddess took around 7-8 minutes to get there so in this case this life most probably could have been spared.
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 21:40   #43
K0loth
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Originally posted by Sandsnake
depends on where you're from, but anywhere from $25k to $40k a year...considering cost equivilancy, you can just change the monetary signs, since the cost-of-living seems exactly the same in hte UK and US.
From my short experience in the US (I live in the UK), I wouldn't believe living costs to be about the same.
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 21:46   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by XA Megatron


One of the people who died last night lived less then a 2 minute drive from the nearest fire station but the green goddess took around 7-8 minutes to get there so in this case this life most probably could have been spared.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2477747.stm

"Firefighters left their picket lines to assist and helped the army crew to rescue 76-year-old Violet Davies from her smoke-filled bedroom and out of the house. "


"According to the Fire Brigades Union, the RAF team were on the scene no slower than a fire engine on a non-strike day. "

"In Ayrshire, a 53-year-old father-of-two was killed in a road accident, soon after 1900 GMT on Wednesday. "

"Evan John Davies, 86, was rescued from his third floor flat and taken to Russell's Hall Hospital in Dudley but later died. "

The last quote is the issue you refer to. The guy was 86 years old, to say his life could "most probably have been saved" is silly.
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 21:50   #45
XA Megatron
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Originally posted by Haer




"Evan John Davies, 86, was rescued from his third floor flat and taken to Russell's Hall Hospital in Dudley but later died. "

The last quote is the issue you refer to. The guy was 86 years old, to say his life could "most probably have been saved" is silly.
Yep, because and extra 5 minutes of smoke inhalation wouldn't effect an 86 year old or do you mean because he was 86 he didn't have much of a life to save anyway?
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 21:52   #46
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Originally posted by XA Megatron


Yep, because and extra 5 minutes of smoke inhalation wouldn't effect an 86 year old or do you mean because he was 86 he didn't have much of a life to save anyway?
Yup, an extra 5minutes would nt have. He was old. The likelihood is that he would have died whether the FBU was striking or not.
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 21:57   #47
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yup.. he inhaled alot of smoke in the first 3 minutes..
and are although the fireman were only 2 minutes away.. the hospital was 13minutes away.... so he could have been taken out of the fire.. but not treated
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 21:57   #48
XA Megatron
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Originally posted by Haer


Yup, an extra 5minutes would nt have. He was old. The likelihood is that he would have died whether the FBU was striking or not.
If you remove the rose tinted glasses here are the points you would have seen:

Although Mr Davies lived a little more than half a mile from the fire station, the army crews were forced to travel much further.

They took 20 minutes to reach the fire, having driven seven miles from Oldbury and five-and-a-half miles from Dudley.

Phil Goalby, West Midlands chairman of the FBU, said: "The pensioner died during the dispute and not as a result of the dispute."

Still sure he couldn't have been saved?

And i thought they Royals were a national disgrace!
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 22:01   #49
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How many jobs do people have to deal with ANYTHING that happens.... regardless of danger or having the right equipment to deal with it.... very very few, but the Fire Brigade is one of them.

Stop and think about it, they dont just deal with chip pan fires and kitty's stuck up trees... if a chemical tanker crashes on the motorway who has to deal with the situation?

Do they know what chemicals are in the tanker? Not untill they get real close, who has to cope with the trauma of pulling crushed and burnt bodies out of car wrecks?

Who has to go in when its "too dangerous for the police"?

Yes I agree with the strike...
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Unread 14 Nov 2002, 22:01   #50
Karmulian
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Originally posted by XA Megatron


Phil Goalby, West Midlands chairman of the FBU, said: "The pensioner died during the dispute and not as a result of the dispute."

Still sure he couldn't have been saved?

sorry but his comment stands

there is no way to know what would have happened

it is possible that if the FBU hasn't been on strike.. then they might have been called to another fire.. and so the guy would still have died

there is no way to tell.. and so ur arguement is null and void
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