PA giving "official" tools private dumps.

[Carlyy]

I'm back! Did you all miss me?

[Mit]

Originally posted by K0loth
The ministers and galaxy banners could be just so people warm to the idea with little objection to the private dumps. Then the private could improve later on with total ship numbers of certain types etc...

and if that happened... where would we be - back here b*tching cos the official tools got more (AGAIN)

[Sakera]

Originally posted by Mit
and if that happened... where would we be - back here b*tching cos the official tools got more (AGAIN)

and we would be back in r3 when it comes to parsing info from web pages.

[mist]

Originally posted by Mit
Now, i bet if kaos/stress/mist/lockhead/or anyone else thats contacted me were doing the 'official' tools and in my position, they'd be doing the same! i.e. getting fed up with all this crap and wondering why others couldn't just live with the desicions that were made.

i'm getting fed up with PA not caring about the players, and have been for a lot longer than you've been writing official tools. i don't particularly care about the database dumps, it's the logic behind not giving them out that i object to

oh, and i object to living with other people's stupid decisions

[Mit]

tough?

[Carlyy]

Originally posted by Mit
tough?

Indeed.

But at least we have the right to come on here and moan about such inequities.

And we aren't the hypocrites matey. I don't do something questionable and then claim there's nothing wrong with it.

[Mit]

Originally posted by Sakera
The deal of this thread to start with wasn't to upset MiT, althought because his tools are of main topic it made him the victim easy. I think he doesn't take the thread itself as an attack at him, but some of the posts inside it might be directed more that way.

heh, some posts directed 'that way'. if u go reading back some of them clearly slag me / the tools off.

[Sakera]

Originally posted by Mit
heh, some posts directed 'that way'. if u go reading back some of them clearly slag me / the tools off.

yes but that still wasnt the purpose of the original thread. I am sorry if some post's slag you, but I hope you understand that when discussing this issue you are kinda "in the middle of it" even if you dont want to.

[Carlyy]

Originally posted by Mit
heh, some posts directed 'that way'. if u go reading back some of them clearly slag me / the tools off.

I only slag you off because you don't admit to the unfairness of what you are doing. The nearest you grudgingly came to it is "I'm only doing as I'm instructed", which is a total cop-out.

[Telest]

Originally posted by Sakera
And how did they become the official tools, by getting the best one for PA or the one who is best friend with current PA crew?

The significance of this being... what?

Originally posted by Sakera And mit might leak his scans to any un-named alliance. Not saying he DOES, justs saying he MIGHT. Of cource MiT will deny this in a later post but wouldn't that be exactly the same as I, Elysium HC, denies that Pilkara is used to any such thing that you suggest.[/b]

No, this is not the same, since MiT's tools are official. As much as you would want to believe that this holds no significance with respect to the credibility of such an argument, the bottom line is that it does. By making the tools official, the PA crew has made it a bit more "difficult" for him to leak any information.

[Carlyy]

Originally posted by Telest
As much as you would want to believe that this holds no significance with respect to the credibility of such an argument, the bottom line is that it does.

How exactly??

Originally posted by Telest
By making the tools official, the PA crew has made it a bit more "difficult" for him to leak any information.

Again, how exactly??

[Telest]

Originally posted by Carlyy
How exactly??



Again, how exactly??

The penalty will be harsher if he gets caught (ie. the loss of the official dumps).

[Gayle29uk]

Originally posted by Mit
heh, some posts directed 'that way'. if u go reading back some of them clearly slag me / the tools off.

Ignore them, they're behaving like spoilt children again. It's no wonder I've started to despise the pathetic childish PA community.

[Carlyy]

Originally posted by Telest
The penalty will be harsher if he gets caught (ie. the loss of the official dumps).

The only penalty they could impose is to remove his access to the extra dump files. Thats not much of a penalty at all. No deterrent as far as I can see.

[Mit]

Originally posted by Telest
The penalty will be harsher if he gets caught (ie. the loss of the official dumps).

The loss of my PA Team posisition? and other things i do in the community. Come on, even i don't know what people are using the site for, i don't look at the database, i don't view the stats very often. All i do is fix problems and let it run itself.

[Telest]

Originally posted by Carlyy
Indeed.

But at least we have the right to come on here and moan about such inequities.

And we aren't the hypocrites matey. I don't do something questionable and then claim there's nothing wrong with it.

Again, you are attacking him by claiming he is hypocrite, when the issue is clearly open to debate.

[Telest]

Originally posted by Carlyy
The only penalty they could impose is to remove his access to the extra dump files. Thats not much of a penalty at all. No deterrent as far as I can see.

It was merely an example, it was not supposed to be a good example, merely something to shot that there IS a difference. MiT later provided some much better ones.

[Carlyy]

Originally posted by Mit
The loss of my PA Team posisition? and other things i do in the community. Come on, even i don't know what people are using the site for, i don't look at the database, i don't view the stats very often. All i do is fix problems and let it run itself.

Thats not the point.

The point is that the *potential* is there for you to abuse your priviliged position to assist you as a player or as a member of your alliance.

I don't care how trustworthy or honest you say you are, thats not the issue. Either play according to the same restrictions as everyone else, or don't play and get a higher level of access. Either/Or.

What annoys me is you want to do both, and then have the temerity to come on these boards and try to claim there's nothing wrong with it.

There is.

Its wrong.

[Mit]

Originally posted by Carlyy
Thats not the point.

The point is that the *potential* is there for you to abuse your priviliged position to assist you as a player or as a member of your alliance.

I don't care how trustworthy or honest you say you are, thats not the issue. Either play according to the same restrictions as everyone else, or don't play and get a higher level of access. Either/Or.

Both tnx! The only way i'm gonna develop the tools and NOT play is if i'm paid to do them, which i'm not so u will NOT stop me playing no matter how much you try.

[Carlyy]

Originally posted by Mit
Both tnx! The only way i'm gonna develop the tools and NOT play is if i'm paid to do them, which i'm not so u will NOT stop me playing no matter how much you try.

Thats absolutely fabulous.

BUT, trying to argue on here that there's nothing wrong with what you're doing is frankly ridiculous.

You'd get more respect from people if you just stopped being such a wimp and admitted its slightly dodgy, but that you don't care about it.

[Telest]

Originally posted by Carlyy
Thats not the point.

There are many points being discussed here. That particular post by MiT was (as far as I can understand) referring to why he might have more to lose than those who run the Pilkara tools.

[Sakera]

Originally posted by Telest
No, this is not the same, since MiT's tools are official. As much as you would want to believe that this holds no significance with respect to the credibility of such an argument, the bottom line is that it does. By making the tools official, the PA crew has made it a bit more "difficult" for him to leak any information.

As mit himself said, PA-HQ does not have access to the server where he is hosting tools. So, what makes it more difficult for him than others?

[Telest]

Originally posted by Carlyy
Thats absolutely fabulous.

BUT, trying to argue on here that there's nothing wrong with what you're doing is frankly ridiculous.

You'd get more respect from people if you just stopped being such a wimp and admitted its slightly dodgy, but that you don't care about it.

I'll post a few arguments here as to why it could be argued that there's nothing wrong with it:

1) It's not against the rules of the game. Jolt is currently the party making the game, and until they make some rule that would prevent MiT from playing, [EDITED IN:] there's nothing wrong with it.

2) The usefulness of the information is highly arguable.

If both of these arguments strike you as so OBVIOUSLY IRRELEVANT that they could under NO circumstance of things be a basis for ANY of MiT's arguments, please say so. Otherwise, in all fairness, stop claiming that there is no point for MiT to argue, and that his point of view would be "ridiculous". Otherwise I will have to assume that you are simply trying to provoke us into more fruitless argument.

[Telest]

Originally posted by Sakera
As mit himself said, PA-HQ does not have access to the server where he is hosting tools. So, what makes it more difficult for him than others?

I already posted this, but here it goes again:
"The penalty will be harsher if he gets caught (ie. the loss of the official dumps)."

Now, I'm not claiming this is a big difference. I'm merely claiming that there IS a difference.

[Mit]

Originally posted by Sakera
As mit himself said, PA-HQ does not have access to the server where he is hosting tools. So, what makes it more difficult for him than others?

Once complete, it will be going on the NEW Portal Server at jolt which i have NO access to at all - i have to send everything via the creators to get it uploaded.

[Sakera]

Originally posted by Sandman
Out of interest can someone give me the URL's to the toolkits everyone uses now, just to have a nose.

Cheerio

www.pilkara.com was the most used last round with about 50k (3k unique) hits every day.

Virus has also it's set of tools, but sadly I dont remember the URL.

Also there was the "official netgamers tools" by mit but I think he was lucky if he registered a single hit a day.

[Ramihyn]

Originally posted by Sakera
And how did they become the official tools, by getting the best one for PA or the one who is best friend with current PA crew?

There was a #pa-toolkit and the "pa toolkit" project was announced on the forums. I think if you would have joined and offered the pilkara tools and accepted the "requirements" to that time, you would be very very likely now doing the "official" pa tools. The whole pa toolkit project went on for several weeks or even months.

Why didn't you offer it then?

[Sakera]

Originally posted by Ramihyn
There was a #pa-toolkit and the "pa toolkit" project was announced on the forums. I think if you would have joined and offered the pilkara tools and accepted the "requirements" to that time, you would be very very likely now doing the "official" pa tools. The whole pa toolkit project went on for several weeks or even months.

Why didn't you offer it then?

The choice of MiT to do PA "official" tools was not made in a competition.

[Gayle29uk]

Originally posted by Sakera
The choice of MiT to do PA "official" tools was not made in a competition.

So? Where does it say this is a democracy? What sort of business decision is based on those principles?

Mit is trusted by and known to the creators so he's the logical choice.

[Mong]

Originally posted by Gayle29uk
Mit is trusted by and known to the creators so he's the logical choice.

Exactly.

All the ppl saying "But Mit could use the extra info for gain" are shooting themselves in the foot.

He's a member of PA Staff, so it's amazingly unlikely.

But what's to stop others?

Anyway this is boring.

M.

[Norseman]

Originally posted by Mong
Exactly.

All the ppl saying "But Mit could use the extra info for gain" are shooting themselves in the foot.

He's a member of PA Staff, so it's amazingly unlikely.

M.

[Heartshunter]

Phew, I managed to wrestle myself through the whole thread.

To be honest, I don't see why its such a fuss, other then that other (not official, alliancetied) developers can't stand it that there will be official tools which give a little extra info.
Big deal.

I haven't see Mit's tools, I hope they're very good. The way I see it is that the PA team finally did something right from a business point of view (they should offer the best tools) and be independent from alliances.

All this crap about helping the community with their own tools, yea, you're an angel for doing it, but don't tell me that helping the whole community was your first priority (it had ofcourse nothing to do with making your own alliance a bit more flashy, or devs just having fun coding it in the first place or to simply use the data - heck thats what we did with our own privatetool).

If the tools are as good or even better then Pilkara and Sandman's, way to go PA team, it should have been done rounds ago.

[hAl]

Originally posted by Sakera
Virus has also it's set of tools, but sadly I dont remember the URL.

Too bad noone submitted it either:
http://directory.google.com/Top/Game...etarion/Tools/

[Ramihyn]

Originally posted by Sakera
The choice of MiT to do PA "official" tools was not made in a competition.

That wasnt what i meant - there was a open "competition" several months ago with the pa toolkit project. Only after that was closed, after a while some other "official" toolkit was chosen.

The open "competition" with the pa toolkit project was widely announced, it went over many weeks/months - pilkara wouldnt have had serious competitors. There was no other party who already had such a good set of tools running and offered them during that time (at least i never saw that happening and never heard anything about it - and i was very active in the pa toolkit channel).

So again - why didnt you offer the pilkara site then? Or did you offer it?

[Sakera]

Originally posted by Ramihyn
That wasnt what i meant - there was a open "competition" several months ago with the pa toolkit project. Only after that was closed, after a while some other "official" toolkit was chosen.

The open "competition" with the pa toolkit project was widely announced, it went over many weeks/months - pilkara wouldnt have had serious competitors. There was no other party who already had such a good set of tools running and offered them during that time (at least i never saw that happening and never heard anything about it - and i was very active in the pa toolkit channel).

So again - why didnt you offer the pilkara site then? Or did you offer it?

For pilkara it have never been the goal to be the official tools. This discussion is not about why pilkara isn't the official tools. It's about something completely else.

Please ready this post for further info, if you ahven't already read it:

http://pirate.planetarion.com/showth...hreadid=159315

[Ramihyn]

Originally posted by Sakera
For pilkara it have never been the goal to be the official tools. This discussion is not about why pilkara isn't the official tools. It's about something completely else.

Please ready this post for further info, if you ahven't already read it:

http://pirate.planetarion.com/showth...hreadid=159315

Ofc i read your original post - it just sounded like you complained about how MIT's tools was chosen (http://pirate.planetarion.com/showth...14#post2325314)

Thats why i cited a phrase from that posting when i first asked you why you didnt apply during the pa toolkit project then. I think you can rightfully complain about several things, but not about the fact that now Mit's tools are the "official" ones - and to me your remark sounded a bit like that. But nm if it was just me misunderstanding your questioning about how Mit's tool was chosen

What Karm/Mong posted into this thread was exactly the kind of opinion i got from some other "official" person several months ago (which i hinted at in my first post in this thread). Basically you have to know that they may well remove the dumps for "political" reasons. This "behaviour" really has a longer history (remember evilroid? - evilroid was very popular and pbot wasnt. crippling the access of evilroid to make it less useable worked well to make pbot the official used irc bot nowadays).

If you knew the requirements during the pa toolkit project to become the "official" tools and how the further progress (private dumps to give the official tools advantages) was planned, you know that you may well wake up some day without any dumps anymore. Thats why i first stopped further development of my own tools and then left for other games where they where adapted and further developed. The intention to make people move away from external tools and make them move to tools which are fully under the control of FS/creators etc. was really clear to that time (to me). So you have my sympathy and i can fully relate to you guys (the pilkara team), but its no surprise for me (and some others).

It is commonly accepted (IMHO) that the community and its aspects are the most important reason to play PA (and not some of the other several games/clones on the net). Still it seems that some people dont even see a problem by basically ruining the work (or mentioning to do so) of some of the most dedicated players who provide additional content to others - thereby enhancing the value of the game compared to competitors.

I think it really comes down to bad customer relationship, but isnt this a chance to improve it now? For example by finally making a official statement about the long-term availability of the dumps and about the support which external developers have?

[Sakera]

Originally posted by Heartless in another thread

I have not the slightest idea why all people are pis... swearing at the official tools site.

So why are some people doing it?

Isn't it the good right of the creators to have official tools which are available to all and 100 per cent neutral (due to _several_ people being able to look up the code for possible "spy routines").

Isn't it the good right of the creators to have official tools on the portal to attract more people to use it?

And isn't it the good right of the creators to give the official tools something which other tools don't have?

I think all three answers can be answered as "yes, they have the good right to do so."

Of cource. I agree, they have full right to do so. PA HQ have whatever right they want to destroy PA the way they do. This is a game made of the community, but owned by PA HQ. So yea, they can do whatever they like with this. But seeing the community runs the game, they wouldnt want to lose that by doing bad decitions (like this one). PA HQ have over several rounds showed us how bad they are at trying to run other things than the PA websites themselves (what I think they do really well), just look at the portal etc. Heartless, If you agree in letting PA HQ do whatever they like with this game, why don't you go somewhere else and bother your cat or something. The reality just isn't so that they can do whatever they like and still keep the game popular. Go hide, ok?

Originally posted by Heartless in another thread

Personally I do mainly use the tools to find a target galaxy or to see how much roids or score I am in front or behind of someone, I do not need to know if it is a minister or not or which galaxy banner he has.
And no, you can't easily compare how good someone really is by considering minister / gc position into score and so on, as those positions are not a constant in the game. Apart from that you'd have to store each tick in a db, which would eat up some webspace and increase server load on dump importing by an amount which is simply non-sense (yes I played around with such calculations).

I use tools to find targets. Knowing if your target is a minister/gc or not is of significant value when attacking. You should know that, or you haven't experienced how often defence pile up at the gc, or alike. The galaxy picture, no isn't that important, but I remember when I started this game and joined a small alliance. We used the galaxy tags to decide who to attack or not. Some tags are located on the galaxy picture, so yea, quite handy to see that. For all these two changes aren't to big, but we want perfection, and satisfy as many as possible. Also they not bending to this minor change who so many mean they are wrong at is a good description for the general atitude of PA HQ.

Talking about extra load. Not significant.

Originally posted by Heartless in another thread

You could, however, introduce just another set of new rankings and some other things I won't talk about as they will be included in official tools most likely, and no, I did not talk to any tools page coder about it, so noone can flame me for "stealing ideas from someone" (yes, some people did flame Mit for it... same time the same people have "stolen" "their" ideas the same way from someone else).

There are very limited how many ways you can make rankings with the current stats. So when one tool site comes up with a new rare way to make these rankings/stats or whatever it's bound to be stolen. My personal opinion at least ....

Originally posted by Heartless in another thread

And one word to the Pilkara coders: Might it be you are just a bit jealous? You guys have a rocking and popular stats page.
Or just pissed because it was decided to give the "official toolkit" title to a page where the code can be controlled by several people? You can't gain everything without offering anything.

Pilkara was never intended to be official tools. Oh by the way, until Mit's code is finished, PA HQ wount have access to the server. He said that himself. And yes, I as a coder know that code very rarely "get's finished", so when will this really happen?

Originally posted by Heartless in another thread

I think it is ok to have an official toolkit on the portal where everyone can find it at once without having to look around a lot.
And it should be up to everyone itself which tools he prefers to use. I will still use the ones I trust most and which left the biggest impression on me.

Of cource, let there be a official toolkit. Good luck Mit. But why does PA have to give that site extra advantages. Yes I know your arguments. "They can do what they want to". It's just not enough. Pilkara is a community driven site. PA HQ want to oucompetition the community driven site. PA HQ want to outcompetition the community. PA HQ will be alone.

[Spinner]

Jeses christ, how important this topic suddenly became for some people.

1: First of all, when I was asked in CH, I said I'd look at it.

2: If anyone think that me, or any other creator , will even give this a thought while we still havent gotten signups up and running, you have got to be joking. We do have priorities, and external tools will never have the same priority as getting the game up and running.

3: I told you, Sakera, that you should drop it until signups were open, but no, you run along pushing for your "rights" and cause a stir on the forums.

This is turning into a principal discussion now, as in "will we let the forum complainers decide our priorities"?
I dont think so.

Give it a rest for now people, we have more important things on our minds than a DB dump for a game which you still cant sign up to, let alone play.

"The pacrew / creators never listens to the community" "they destroy the community" "they are arrogant".....
I am puzzled how certain individuals find it "better for the community" to whine and complain on the forums rather than help out building it up, trying to get more players, recruit some fresh blood.

I think we all need to focus on whats important, and not be tempted into personal flames and arguments about things that doesnt matter too much in the long run. We have a community to glue back together, and it would probably be a lot easier if we could all pull in the same direction.

Anyways, drop it, lets get signups started, and when signups have been going on for a few days, and any problems have been sorted out, I am sure that there is room for a more meaningfull discussion between a few pairs of eyes than a round of flaming, complaining and bitching on the forums.

And Sakera, I have gotten no email from you, we spoke on irc in a pm the other day, nothing else. So there (-:
And if you are not nice, I will come and take your roids away

[grkn]

Originally posted by Karmulian
the creators don't have to give you any dumps at all.

they could just provide them to mit for the official Pa tools.. which are under and official pa url and an official pa supported server(or will be)

if they remove the dumps.. u have no choice but to use mits tools.

so be happy they have given the ones already available.

Amusing.

I present you exhibit #32451 why Planetarion has failed in the past (and unless this changes, it will again), a complete ignorant attidude towards the reallity of buisness.

Aye, they aren't oblieged to provide any dumps ... on the other hand no one is oblieged to play this glorified shoping card script.

karrde

p.s.: kaos, your tools still look like ****.

[kaos]

Originally posted by grkn
Amusing.
[...]
p.s.: kaos, your tools still look like ****.

i know
it will change a bit for r9 (you will be pleased: finally xhtml compliant ) but i just didn't have the time to do it yet ...

[grkn]

Originally posted by kaos
i know
it will change a bit for r9 (you will be pleased: finally xhtml compliant ) but i just didn't have the time to do it yet ...

Only needed what ... more than 2 rounds to do that?
Lazy git.

karrde

[kaos]

Originally posted by grkn
Only needed what ... more than 2 rounds to do that?
Lazy git.

karrde

i wouldn't call it lazy, more busy
and those strange :: |-- etc in your template still suck

[grkn]

Originally posted by kaos
i wouldn't call it lazy, more busy
and those strange :: |-- etc in your template still suck

Yeah ... you tell me.
You lot wanted alternative layouts for pilkara, i simply gave you one.

[Sakera]

Originally posted by Spinner
1: First of all, when I was asked in CH, I said I'd look at it.

Yes, you say that alot. We know you are busy, but still many of the things "you will look at" diseapear in nothingness. This way we more or less put a pressure on you. I dunno if thats good or bad by us, but you are known not to take on things unless you have a pressure about it.

Originally posted by Spinner

2: If anyone think that me, or any other creator , will even give this a thought while we still havent gotten signups up and running, you have got to be joking. We do have priorities, and external tools will never have the same priority as getting the game up and running.

This thread will still be here when signups is started.

Originally posted by Spinner

3: I told you, Sakera, that you should drop it until signups were open, but no, you run along pushing for your "rights" and cause a stir on the forums.

If you look at the log, and the date this thread was started you'll find a date difference of several days. When you told me that, this thread had 250 replies already.

Originally posted by Spinner

This is turning into a principal discussion now, as in "will we let the forum complainers decide our priorities"?
I dont think so.

Well, isn't this just what you should do, show that you admit the community are right WHEN THE COMMUNITY ARE RIGHT, witch is something completely different from what you have done so far. I don't really know what pressure you guys are under, but I can imagine it's quite big, but that doesn't help it, if you want to be a success you have to make the community happy. We are a part of the community, and I think you can see that people actually care about things like this not only because of just this tiny detail about the dumps but also about the way you handle it. Yea, I am experienced in running an alliance. I'm not saying thats the same as running this game, as it is much smaller. But from running an alliance I have learnt you cannot bend for every member's demands, but if you ignore what main part of the memberbase think, they will disapear and leave for a better alliance. In your case another game.

Originally posted by Spinner

"The pacrew / creators never listens to the community" "they destroy the community" "they are arrogant".....
I am puzzled how certain individuals find it "better for the community" to whine and complain on the forums rather than help out building it up, trying to get more players, recruit some fresh blood.

Pilkara was built by the community, and you'd like to see that diseapear. Thats how the community sees it. Show us you care, pwease?

Originally posted by Spinner

I think we all need to focus on whats important, and not be tempted into personal flames and arguments about things that doesnt matter too much in the long run. We have a community to glue back together, and it would probably be a lot easier if we could all pull in the same direction.

Could we try to make it go the right direction as well? It may mean a 180 degree turn from todays direction, but the hard part is turning, afterwards it get's easy again.

Originally posted by Spinner

And Sakera, I have gotten no email from you, we spoke on irc in a pm the other day, nothing else. So there (-:

HERE!

Edited away rest of my sent items etc, but there it is.
No message from my email host that you didnt get it either.

<Sakera> Kloopy, does spinner use the [email protected] adress?
<Kloopy> Yes.

So there (-:

Originally posted by Spinner

And if you are not nice, I will come and take your roids away

[Spinner]

Lo again.

My last post on the matter for now:

1: Sorry Sakera if you fealt attacked by me. Not intended.
I didnt get your email, because I dont use that email address anymore, as someone have gone to a lot of trouble to sign me up to about every mailing list there is, and the numbers reached thousands of emails from spam / pornsites / mailing lists etc.
Its was unfortunate that Kloopy said I did use it, sorry about that.

2: However, you should know that fireing up a thread on the forums is not the way to go to get things done. Its not about listening to the community or not, its about using a level of communication that suits the purpose. And timing ofc.

3: I am sorry if me not checking the date on this thread offended you, but you could have simply taken a step back and left the discussion after we spoke. You chose not to, fair enough. But I wonder why (-:

4: Listening to the community, is not the same as obaying it. You know very well that this topic had been brought to us, and you were told to wait. In other words, you knew your point had been made. We listen, as we always do, but we do not always agree or comply. And this is something you will have to accept, wether or not you agree with our reasons, if any are given.
You have your priorities and your responsibilities, we have ours.
I respect your opinion and listen to your question.
Please respect us as well, even if you dont agree.

[Kloopy]

'oops'

My apologies for the little misinterpretation thing I caused. Just shows how much I know.

* Kloopy self-slaps.

[K0loth]

Originally posted by Spinner
Lo again.

My last post on the matter for now:

1: Sorry Sakera if you fealt attacked by me. Not intended.
I didnt get your email, because I dont use that email address anymore, as someone have gone to a lot of trouble to sign me up to about every mailing list there is, and the numbers reached thousands of emails from spam / pornsites / mailing lists etc.
Its was unfortunate that Kloopy said I did use it, sorry about that.

2: However, you should know that fireing up a thread on the forums is not the way to go to get things done. Its not about listening to the community or not, its about using a level of communication that suits the purpose. And timing ofc.

3: I am sorry if me not checking the date on this thread offended you, but you could have simply taken a step back and left the discussion after we spoke. You chose not to, fair enough. But I wonder why (-:

4: Listening to the community, is not the same as obaying it. You know very well that this topic had been brought to us, and you were told to wait. In other words, you knew your point had been made. We listen, as we always do, but we do not always agree or comply. And this is something you will have to accept, wether or not you agree with our reasons, if any are given.
You have your priorities and your responsibilities, we have ours.
I respect your opinion and listen to your question.
Please respect us as well, even if you dont agree.

You said sorry three times in one post.

[Leshy]

Right, this thread has suddenly grown to rather severe proportions, and I feel the need to comment on a few things, as apparently a great fuss is kicked up over something completely trivial, and it seems to be something just for the sake of arguing.

Originally posted by Carlyy
It is fundamentally wrong that a *player* (i.e. you) should get more information, higher levels of access, or additional data than other players (i.e. the rest of us mugs).

You seem to lack any sort of knowledge on what is going on, and it's making you look highly stupid. Mit has no information whatsoever, nor access to any, that other coders of the various Planetarion Tools do not have. The only difference is that the dumps Mit gets to use contain some additional information that anyone can get by looking at the galaxy screen.

On another note, I think it's very wrong to attack Mit personally, as he has nothing to do with the issue at hand. The point raised was aimed at Planetarion for giving private dumps to their own tools, and public ones to the rest.

My own opinion is that there is no reason why Planetarion should give everyone the dump with the additional information. In the past, PA has made dumps publically available so that people interested could create tools if they wanted to do so. Which happened. At this point, Planetarion wants to have some of their own tools, and have given it some extra (and rather trivial) information. As it's their game, they have every right to do so. Seeing as the extra information provided is in no way pivotal to the functioning of tools (seeing as Pilkara, Sandmans et al have functioned perfectly without GC/Minister positions or Gal Banners), there isn't even any 'unfair competition'.

So the official PA Tools will have a few minor features that other tools won't have. Big boo-hoo. Do you want the .psd files of the official PA graphics as well? Because it would be highly unfair if the official PA tools would be able to use Planetarion graphics, and all the other ones not!

[Mit]

http://pirate.planetarion.com/showth...hreadid=159635 <-- READ

[wakey]

Ok ive been away for a while and thus havent yet read all this thread but I had to put my view across.

Back when the extended dumps were introduced (think it was r6) I made the point in a PATeam meeting that limiting the extended dumps was wrong and I still believe so today.

Yes it natural to want to give your own tools an advantage so they are the most used BUT manufactuering an advantage such as this is just a case of unfair competition. No other set of PA tools will ever be able to compete while extra information is being given to the Official tools only and such a situation will lead to stagnation and damage the tools in the long run.

As the technolgical advances of the Cold War showed compitition is a good thing as it keeps you on your toes and pushes advancements on, once this compitition is removed theres less need to push forward. Just look at the first couple of rounds when there was only a single set of tools (well public ones anyway) for each round. These rounds no no real advances in the tools and thus they stayed pretty basic. However once production of tools became more common people started to compete to make their tools as complete as possible. Becuase of this we now have the excellent tools we have now.

My 2nd point is that those who decide to stay and compete are going to have to get this additional info into their database somehow. So how are they going to do that...simply we will either end up with a r2 tahmer situation where these sites have their scripts parse the galaxy screens in game putting extra load here or they will just parse the official tools lists. Neither of these are acceptable but will be neccesary for them to survive.

So I urge you to stop thinking about your selfish need for people to use the portal and instead think about whats best for the community. The community has taken enough bashing over the rounds and actions like could just be the final nail in the coffin