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Unread 12 Sep 2016, 00:43   #1
Caj
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Remove alliance defence fleet

Remove it the alliance defence fleet.
Why

1) It makes the game a bit stagnated, with less lands and more recalls, this leads to less players enjoying the game
2) It was meant to help the lower alliances, it does not. It helps the bigger alliances massively. And all big alliances will admit that. Just ask Xerxes from Ultores or Butcher from Rainbows.
3) You should be rewarded for activity, for live launching. Now live launching just isn't effective.
4) If the alliance defence slot stays I can see alot more of our valuable player base diminishing.

There's many more negative points.
Only positive ones are likely from high ranked players who absolutely love it.
The alliance defence slot was meant to help the lesser players. It helps the better players more and more.

Please remove it.
Please.

At least try removing it for one round and see if it impacts the player base?
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Unread 12 Sep 2016, 10:10   #2
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Re: Remove alliance defence fleet

My main reason for liking the alliance defense fleets is for their symmetry: prelaunch allows people to launch attack fleets while they're asleep. The alliance defense fleet allows people to launch defense fleets while they're asleep.

I do understand that they're problematic in the ways you've described, but I'm not convinced there isn't a way to fix them.
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Unread 12 Sep 2016, 11:00   #3
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Re: Remove alliance defence fleet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
My main reason for liking the alliance defense fleets is for their symmetry: prelaunch allows people to launch attack fleets while they're asleep. The alliance defense fleet allows people to launch defense fleets while they're asleep.

I do understand that they're problematic in the ways you've described, but I'm not convinced there isn't a way to fix them.
The biggest problem is the "bandwagon" effect.
People say that making offensive stats will counter the "defensive game" issue, but that again increases the bandwagon effect.
There is no reason, at all, NO REASON WHAT SO EVER to hit a top tag unless you know they will have over 60 incs, you simply cannot and will not land them ever.

Just give HR defence fleet, and remove it for the rest
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Unread 12 Sep 2016, 12:20   #4
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Re: Remove alliance defence fleet

yeah mz is correct

i would also remove prelaunched attacks too

but yes

we need balance

perhaps it needs scaling

top 3 alliance bottom 20% can use it
3-5 alliance bottom 25%...
required extra coding

everyone please suggest viable solutions!
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Unread 12 Sep 2016, 14:46   #5
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Re: Remove alliance defence fleet

either remove both pl attacks and autodef or keep the status quo.
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Unread 12 Sep 2016, 15:04   #6
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Re: Remove alliance defence fleet

1) It helps everyone.

2) Alliance def fleet isn't suppose to give agility on defense, but to give an easier access to their members as it only replaces the call/sms tools.

3) Its intend is to balance the pre-launch attacks. Nothing else

====================================

So, the option to remove pre-launch attacks and that way remove ally def fleets would be the best in terms of fairness and game dynamics.

The second option, to nerf the alliance def fleet, demands code and is not guaranteed to bring the desired results.

What possible nerfs:
- fleets can be launched each tick up to XX:55 (so a single player can't stop a lolwave that is coordinating 15 players to live launch)
- the maximum number of fleets launched per tick is now 20. The #1-2 alliances gets only 5/tick, the #3-5 gets 10/tick, below that is 20/tick.
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Unread 12 Sep 2016, 16:08   #7
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Re: Remove alliance defence fleet

A nerf with less impact: remove ally def fleet and change maximum pre launch in attack to +1
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Unread 12 Sep 2016, 17:06   #8
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Re: Remove alliance defence fleet

Removing, or limiting PL is silly.
Having inc scans show land tick would be the way to go.
Its a small nerph to PL, and it adds more strategy than just puming refs/FCs
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Unread 12 Sep 2016, 19:31   #9
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Re: Remove alliance defence fleet

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Removing, or limiting PL is silly.
Having inc scans show land tick would be the way to go.
Its a small nerph to PL, and it adds more strategy than just puming refs/FCs
Actually agree.

I would go one step further. Let launch show the instant you launch it (as it was in the old days). When you prelaunch it gets launched in the start of the tick. So if you pre-launch you risk bigger meta class to defend vs you. Do this for regular launch as well. There isn't enough members anymore to get the dreaded msg 5 min to tick that the whole game goes down.

Something that rewards activity would be fun for a change.

But ye i would remove ally def fleets as well. Ppl complain that all we see is gangbanging on alliances. As long as we have def fleets it's almost pointless to hit one alliance alone
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Unread 12 Sep 2016, 20:44   #10
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Re: Remove alliance defence fleet

Unsure of nd official view on this but it's brought up to discussion now so will get back.

For us it's helped and for ex 2 rounds back when we were fighting bows we landed. Been landing less this and last round though. It's helped when adding fakes to leech def. And we keep some roids now even when under the heavy fire first half of round.

I see main problem in naptarion, 3x3 deals and ppl emoing over 1 lost wave of roids. That's imo main problem, not the allyfleets. Top allies too scared of falling behind after 1-2 days of red, and therefore no proper fighting. I even witness top allies being boogered over incs while on green

I don't think it makes a difference in hitting for ex Ult with or without allyfleets. They def anyways. So allyfleets has evened up allies to compete with them without taking them down with a megablock.
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Unread 12 Sep 2016, 22:03   #11
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Re: Remove alliance defence fleet

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Originally Posted by Buly View Post
Unsure of nd official view on this but it's brought up to discussion now so will get back.

For us it's helped and for ex 2 rounds back when we were fighting bows we landed. Been landing less this and last round though. It's helped when adding fakes to leech def. And we keep some roids now even when under the heavy fire first half of round.

I see main problem in naptarion, 3x3 deals and ppl emoing over 1 lost wave of roids. That's imo main problem, not the allyfleets. Top allies too scared of falling behind after 1-2 days of red, and therefore no proper fighting. I even witness top allies being boogered over incs while on green

I don't think it makes a difference in hitting for ex Ult with or without allyfleets. They def anyways. So allyfleets has evened up allies to compete with them without taking them down with a megablock.

Don't disagree that's easier to keep roids.Still think it's a crap and boring feature :P
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Unread 14 Sep 2016, 08:13   #12
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Re: Remove alliance defence fleet

The whole travel system is broken.

Rather than removing pl or nerfing auto def why don't we find a way to stop players attacking at 3am.

My simple fix would be 9am -9pm -2 eta. That means if you attack with FI in these hours you get ETA 5. A quicker turn around and higher chance of penetrating defence at these hours would hopefully move alliances away from attacking at unsocial hours.

You can change pl and how to def into as many combinations as you please but until you solve this core flaw in the game then the problem will continue to exist.
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Unread 14 Sep 2016, 09:32   #13
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Re: Remove alliance defence fleet

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
why don't we find a way to stop players attacking at 3am.
No reason.
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Unread 14 Sep 2016, 12:17   #14
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Re: Remove alliance defence fleet

The Inc scan detecting the numbers of ticks the attack is pre-launched is a boost to an ingame feature that doesnt come free as it needs a good amount of amps.

That is a good improvement that can allow the remove of the ally def fleet.
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Unread 14 Sep 2016, 23:47   #15
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Re: Remove alliance defence fleet

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Quoting time zone as relative is all well and good until you take into account that atleast 65% of the playerbase play in a European timezone and having an environment which is antisocial to the majority is not s good platform to base a sustainable game on. The launch time is also anti social to Asia and East Coast America around 3am game time so yes, it needs changing to make attacking more spread out across a day with less time to react rather all chucking the kitchen sink at someone whilst up-to 80% of their team mates are trying to sleep before work
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Unread 15 Sep 2016, 08:38   #16
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Re: Remove alliance defence fleet

This is a 24h game, closing the game for certain hours or making it act diffrtently for certain hours wont happend.

If the inc scan showed landing tick, it would encourage diffrent stratetgies aswell.

1. Going for higher amps would be more valueable if you want to prelaunch def.
2. Going for higher dists if you want to just PL attack as usual.
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Unread 15 Sep 2016, 09:55   #17
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Re: Remove alliance defence fleet

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
This is a 24h game, closing the game for certain hours or making it act diffrtently for certain hours wont happend.

If the inc scan showed landing tick, it would encourage diffrent stratetgies aswell.

1. Going for higher amps would be more valueable if you want to prelaunch def.
2. Going for higher dists if you want to just PL attack as usual.
It's not though really is it. Attacks and defence primarly happen in a 4hr window at the most anti social point of the spectrum for the majority of the playerbase.

Tailoring bonuses and buffs to those that actually play it rather than presuming that everything is equal would go a long way to improving the core aspect of the game, attacking and defending. Those who are awake in the anti social hours already reap the benefit of most of us being asleep whilst they go about their business. Giving a buff/incentive to the majority to attack at hours that are social to them can only be a positive to the longevity of the game.

Lots of American players are prized for their timezone rather than their actual ability to play the game. Who knows how many brilliant European dcs there is out there who never get a chance to shine because they have to sleep at night.
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Unread 15 Sep 2016, 10:59   #18
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Re: Remove alliance defence fleet

These americans have to be alive at unsociable hours to TP/launch/calc their own attacks to some extent.
And what abilities do you need to play the game except being dedicated/having someone being dedicated for you?

Alliances like Norse and Asc has sucsefully been attacking during "social" hours because they are launching at alliances that have no fleets left to defend with.
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Unread 15 Sep 2016, 11:09   #19
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Re: Remove alliance defence fleet

This is not AD.
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Unread 15 Sep 2016, 11:18   #20
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Re: Remove alliance defence fleet

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
This is not AD.
Ah, sorry for using other alliances as examples why there is possibole to attack during other hours than 03:00.
Would it be okey if i said alliance "A" or group "B"?
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Unread 15 Sep 2016, 13:47   #21
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Re: Remove alliance defence fleet

Gone a bit off topic, haven't we?
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Unread 15 Sep 2016, 14:03   #22
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Re: Remove alliance defence fleet

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Gone a bit off topic, haven't we?
It's just an evolution of the discussion
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Unread 15 Sep 2016, 15:16   #23
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Re: Remove alliance defence fleet

Fair enough.

Would like to see some more input re: ally def fleet, and maybe some hard data (Appoco?) before I can give an opinion.

It still seems to be a good thing...
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Unread 15 Sep 2016, 16:22   #24
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Re: Remove alliance defence fleet

i think the feature is a good one and i strongly doubt removing it will rise the playerbase at all
rather i think if u remove it, the shrinking will continue even faster

though honestly spoken i feel this game wont last much longer anyhow

politics are broken, mainly because of a too small universe imo
fighting battles isnt rewarded enough

here a few suggestions to stop the game from dying
*reward landing attacks with xp only if a fight happens, if the target runs, no xp or very little should be rewarded
i leave it to the math maniacs to make up a formula, but my idea would be to count ships only that actually get to shoot or could in theory (if they wouldnt be killed, stunned before)
*remove xp for defence
*add bot planets
* allow every player a second planet (limit interaction somehow)
* advertize the game

my 6 and a half cents
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Unread 15 Sep 2016, 17:38   #25
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Re: Remove alliance defence fleet

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Would like to see some more input re: ally def fleet, and maybe some hard data (Appoco?) before I can give an opinion.
Define hard data? What data do you expect/want to see?
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Unread 15 Sep 2016, 17:41   #26
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Re: Remove alliance defence fleet

Fleets launched in general, by alliance, some sort of average ship-type(s) in fleets, that sort of thing
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Unread 15 Sep 2016, 18:11   #27
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Re: Remove alliance defence fleet

Bram,

Are you able to extrapolate which fleets have been sent via ally def slot and which were launched by the actual planet? Might be interesting if we could see which alliance make the most advantage of this.

Also is able to see how many attack or def fleets each alliance pre-aunched?

Finally can we see by daily hour over the course of the round how many fleets an alliance sent on attack and dehence. To see if butcher is right and Norse always attacked at 3pm and whether timezone truly matters. I'm sure alliances could provide nationality of their members
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Unread 15 Sep 2016, 18:38   #28
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Re: Remove alliance defence fleet

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Are you able to extrapolate which fleets have been sent via ally def slot and which were launched by the actual planet? Might be interesting if we could see which alliance make the most advantage of this.
After end of round I should be able to provide numbers on that..
Do note that for the previous round Appocomaster did post numbers in http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=201187 (Top Defence-Sharing Alliances)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Also is able to see how many attack or def fleets each alliance pre-aunched?
For prelaunching attacking fleets I did post some numbers on this last year:
For pre-launched def fleets: I do not have stats available on that yet and it ofc depends on what pre-launched def fleets you mean..

There are two cases:
  • lower class fleet launched to def highger class (i.e. FI/CO fleet launched to def against FR/DE when the inc is still eta 8, technically that is PL+1)
  • higher class fleet launched to def lower class

The first number is easy to provide but I consider that to be quite useless;
The second number should be possible to extract but takes a bit of more work..


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Finally can we see by daily hour over the course of the round how many fleets an alliance sent on attack and dehence. To see if butcher is right and Norse always attacked at 3pm and whether timezone truly matters. I'm sure alliances could provide nationality of their members
This should be possible

When the round is over (i.e. next week) I should be able to provide numbers for this round.. (unless someone can convince PA team to hand me the data up until this tick then it might be available sooner)
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Unread 15 Sep 2016, 18:42   #29
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Re: Remove alliance defence fleet

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Originally Posted by Cochese View Post
Fleets launched in general, by alliance
Something like http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=201186 ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cochese View Post
some sort of average ship-type(s) in fleets, that sort of thing
Ship-type(s) in fleets is not really possible..
The ETA of the fleet is possible but without the TT level of the planet at launch time this is not so handy.. (and current data I get does not include that)

Ship-type(s) of fleets that landed on the other hand should be possible but since not all fleets land this might not give an accurate picture..
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Unread 15 Sep 2016, 21:07   #30
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Re: Remove alliance defence fleet

The whole arguments is that stronger alliance will benefit from thsi than weaker alliances.
Maybe HRs defence peformance is doubled, and Ults only increased by a smaller margine, but the whole thing revolves around that from the new allie def fleet feature "stronger" alliance is able to use it better than "weaker" alliances and therefor increasing the gap even futher.
Why?
Defence/support planets is more common in say Ultores than say ND. With tags only counting for 40 planets, the bigger, and more organised tags is able to fill it up with defence planets wich tages basicly no effort to run.

Also the "bandwagon effect" of PA is DRAMATICLY increased by this new defence fleet feature(and offensive stats) as once the "pain barrier" is breach you would lose roids, and if it isnt breached no roids will be lost.
If say alliance A can cover 50 incs with 20 defence/support planets, no roids will be lost even without sending "real defence fleets".
If you want to breach the "pain barrier" for alliance A, maybe you need to send 100+ fleets, and very few, if any, alliance is able to do this.
So the only option would be to create a "block" or "bandwagon" as 1 on 1, and maybe even 2 vs 1 fights will result in no roid loss to either side.
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Unread 16 Sep 2016, 00:32   #31
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Re: Remove alliance defence fleet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bram View Post
After end of round I should be able to provide numbers on that..
Do note that for the previous round Appocomaster did post numbers in http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=201187 (Top Defence-Sharing Alliances)



For prelaunching attacking fleets I did post some numbers on this last year:
For pre-launched def fleets: I do not have stats available on that yet and it ofc depends on what pre-launched def fleets you mean..

There are two cases:
  • lower class fleet launched to def highger class (i.e. FI/CO fleet launched to def against FR/DE when the inc is still eta 8, technically that is PL+1)
  • higher class fleet launched to def lower class

The first number is easy to provide but I consider that to be quite useless;
The second number should be possible to extract but takes a bit of more work..




This should be possible

When the round is over (i.e. next week) I should be able to provide numbers for this round.. (unless someone can convince PA team to hand me the data up until this tick then it might be available sooner)

Thank you and yeah didn't even cross my mind of lower class def do scrap that part of it. But definitely attack PL please
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Unread 16 Sep 2016, 05:29   #32
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Re: Remove alliance defence fleet

Thanks Bram, you nailed it.
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Unread 17 Sep 2016, 12:28   #33
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Re: Remove alliance defence fleet

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
My main reason for liking the alliance defense fleets is for their symmetry: prelaunch allows people to launch attack fleets while they're asleep. The alliance defense fleet allows people to launch defense fleets while they're asleep.

I do understand that they're problematic in the ways you've described, but I'm not convinced there isn't a way to fix them.
Why not just remove both?
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Unread 17 Sep 2016, 18:56   #34
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Re: Remove alliance defence fleet

That works for me. It'll never happen, though.
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Unread 18 Sep 2016, 19:06   #35
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Re: Remove alliance defence fleet

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
That works for me. It'll never happen, though.
Let the players decide how committed they want to be.

I have huge reservations about the alliance defence feature too. It essentially makes it easier to flak for top planets and there is absolutely no reason for the game mechanics to facilitate this and help players who don't really need it.
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Unread 21 Sep 2016, 03:04   #36
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Re: Remove alliance defence fleet

Ok, late to the party as usual. Read this stuff with great scarcity...

Anyway, I think the alliance def fleet system should be removed. It is extremly unbalanced. It does help less active alliances keep some roids (but why is that a good thing in the first place? Activity should be rewarded...) but it helps an alliance with a dedicated DC exponentially more.

One concrete example were the war between Ultores and Norsemen last round, Norsemen live launched on us with around 15-20 planets. I stopped them by having Ult place fr/de based anti fi/co into ally command and then have a scanner scan the tag close to tick.

That's 2 people playing vs 15-20 people playing... Is that really fair?

I'm not convinced regarding the sugested nerfs... If you limit the launching to before :55, you will only make an incentive not to go with a heavy strat. The principle is the same regardless if you use PL def or normal def. A dedicated DC can stop a greater number of people putting effort into making a good attack.

In my opinion activity among the greater number of people should be rewarded. So the ally-def should be removed. Wether it will help the playerbase or not, who knows - but it incentives the wrong things in my opinion.
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Unread 23 Sep 2016, 23:36   #37
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Re: Remove alliance defence fleet

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
The biggest problem is the "bandwagon" effect.
People say that making offensive stats will counter the "defensive game" issue, but that again increases the bandwagon effect.
There is no reason, at all, NO REASON WHAT SO EVER to hit a top tag unless you know they will have over 60 incs, you simply cannot and will not land them ever.

Just give HR defence fleet, and remove it for the rest
i do agree, it should be removed. That said we will cover 80% less...hopefully attack activity will go up again when members start loosing roids again ;-)
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Unread 23 Sep 2016, 23:47   #38
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Re: Remove alliance defence fleet

Well a little data, wich might be slightly tainted.

Prior to the last week:
BowS only went into red 10 days this round.
Those 10 days was during incs 100+.
All other days they were able to cover enough to not go into red.
This goes for Ult aswell, the only time they lost roids was during the time they were being blocked.
The same goes for p3nguins, wich also only went into red the days they had 100+ incs.

This encourage blocking.
If a alliance dont get targetted, its very unlikely they are gonna lose enough roids to put em in red.
The average planet sends out around 1 attack fleet on average each night, so this means that if a 60 man tag is gonna target another 60 man tag, there will be no roids loss if they dont come with a bandwagon large enough to break the "pain barrier".
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Unread 28 Sep 2016, 21:33   #39
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Re: Remove alliance defence fleet

Alliance def fleets help the casual player. I think it's a great new feature if I'm
Honest.
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Unread 29 Sep 2016, 08:34   #40
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Re: Remove alliance defence fleet

It simply makes it far too easy to cover attacks. Last round I found the odd target, calced it, thought about it and then thought 'screw it, what's the point. There's going to be one alli def page wizard clicking stuff to cover the attack in seconds. Pointless'

Please remove this feature

Please
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Unread 29 Sep 2016, 16:11   #41
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Re: Remove alliance defence fleet

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It simply makes it far too easy to cover attacks. Last round I found the odd target, calced it, thought about it and then thought 'screw it, what's the point. There's going to be one alli def page wizard clicking stuff to cover the attack in seconds. Pointless'

Please remove this feature

Please
Agree entirely. Especially with tag limit at 60.
That's 60 defence fleets 1 person can launch.
A bit overpowered for bigger alliances.
When tag limit is 40, the alliance def fleet may not be such a big deal, as less def fleets obviously!

Definitely need some scaling here. Or some formula to limit it.
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Unread 2 Oct 2016, 15:11   #42
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Re: Remove alliance defence fleet

removing it just benefits those who use other "solutions" more, alliance fleet levels the playing field a bit and reduces sms/ring costs.
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Unread 2 Oct 2016, 16:51   #43
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Re: Remove alliance defence fleet

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Originally Posted by [DDK]gm View Post
removing it just benefits those who use other "solutions" more, alliance fleet levels the playing field a bit and reduces sms/ring costs.
There is more to this issue than who benefits most from the alliance defense fleet, though. There's also the question whether or not it makes the game better, or more fun, or whatever metric you like to apply.

(I quoted you, gm, but just as an example.)
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Unread 2 Oct 2016, 18:29   #44
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Re: Remove alliance defence fleet

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Originally Posted by [DDK]gm View Post
removing it just benefits those who use other "solutions" more, alliance fleet levels the playing field a bit and reduces sms/ring costs.
It only costs so much in SMS ring costs cos the game forces you to be at your most active when your team is asleep. Fix that and you save more
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Unread 10 Oct 2016, 22:27   #45
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Re: Remove alliance defence fleet

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Bram,

Are you able to extrapolate which fleets have been sent via ally def slot and which were launched by the actual planet? Might be interesting if we could see which alliance make the most advantage of this.

Also is able to see how many attack or def fleets each alliance pre-aunched?

Finally can we see by daily hour over the course of the round how many fleets an alliance sent on attack and dehence. To see if butcher is right and Norse always attacked at 3pm and whether timezone truly matters. I'm sure alliances could provide nationality of their members
Numbers now posted in http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?p=3253835
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