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Unread 2 Dec 2006, 11:58   #1
qebab
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[Long]On dedication, honour and teamplay.

I want to open this thread by saying that this is not completely unrelated to alliance discussion, but I want to keep specific alliances out of this. So if you have anything bad to say about "Omgels", eXilition, or any other alliance, please keep it out of this thread.

The biggest question in my head as I write this is; Where did all the good guys go?

The last few rounds I've played, I've seen a serious decline in the amount of people actually working hard for their alliance and friends, and hanging in there for each other. What I mean to say is, I see a lot of planetnaps, I see a lot of spying and shipjumping, and I can't remember that there was so much of it before. I could be wrong, but I feel that the "good guys" that made up 90% of alliances before, are reduced to the 10% nowadays.

I haven't been in a lot of alliances in planetarion, so I'm not sure how qualified I am to state these things. But the last rounds I've played, I see a lot of people not joining into alliance raids, not doing enough defense, and some simply not hitting the enemy alliance at all. I don't think this is due to people turning more selfish, I think it's due to unselfish players leaving, or not playing seriously anymore.

When was this game all about sucking up all the defense to your planet, avoiding being roided, taking easy roids and avoiding your enemy? There have been a lot of players who have had this style of playing before, but I feel that there is a larger portion of the playerbase who works with these ideals now. Am I making this up? Is it simply due to the alliances I have played in?

Personally, I always try to play for my alliance, admittedly I have done some selfish things every now and then, but I have always been very dedicated to the alliance I've played in. This means that I am active, I try to keep my fleets flying as often as possible, I try to build a decent defense fleet, and I take two targets in every alliance raid. This round, I'm top 30 launches, and in all honesty I didn't do that many. With a little more effort the first ten days, I could easily have achieved another 10-15, which could in fact have brought me up to top 15. Is activity decreasing as well?

Though the game can be called responsible for a few of these things, I'd rather say it's down to the community itself. I'm inclined to call them problems, for my own selfish reasons (because it means I waste a lot of time and effort for a lot of people and don't get what I expect in return).

I don't think I want to play another round of this game, simply because I, as a member of Angels before our merge said earlier, 'care too much'. The relevant case was me spamming defense calls (Due to no dc being online, and me having access to dc channel after not being removed after the last round I dced). I said 'No wonder there is no dc on, I have no problem seeing why they don't want to dc for you guys. I get no offers!'.

'I care too much'

Another thing, is the attitude to shipjumping. Has it always been this bad? Or am I again making up things, that people, if they disagree with, or dislike the politics of an alliance just change sides? Where is the will to hang on there for each other? An alliance is not politics, High Commanders, or officers. It's members. You can have an alliance without organization, but not an organization without the alliance. When you jump ship, it isn't the HC you get back at. It's the people who defended you, and attacked with you all round long. When you spy on them, it's not the HC you spy on, it's the members who trust you, and consider you a friend who get the backlash. When you planetnap, you don't give your alliance less incomings, you just shift the focus of it to the people who defend you. I care a lot about these things, and if I am to put as much effort into an alliance as I do when I play, I have every right in the world to do so. I expect the people I send my defense to, and attack with, to not give me more incoming, to not relay what I say to our enemies, to not jump sides and repay my green fleets to them with red fleets to me.

Do I expect to much of my fellow comrades in the alliances I play with?

I'm coming to the end of this rather long rant now, bear with me. The last thing I want to rant about, is fakenicking.

I've exiled around quite a bit this round, and after my first galaxy, I didn't use my fakenick. To be entirely honest, I never liked fakenicking, but as the loyal peon I am, I have done so when my alliance HC has requested it. In the first week, it is understandable. After all, it would give away the advantage of being hidden to your enemies, if one did not. However, I have seen people clinging onto a fakenick at tick 700(!) this round. Why, why, why do you need to keep your identity hidden from a group of players that you are likely to play the entire round with? That you are likely to have to cooperate with for the benefit of your planet? If there isn't enough trust to show your real nick, how can you trust each other to watch out for each other, and help each other?

In all honesty, I'm not sure if I like how the playing community is right now. I'm not sure if I want to put more effort into it after this round. Has it really been like this all the time, or is this what it has turned into between the last round I played (16) and this one? I think I know why all the 'good guys' are leaving. And I'm inclined to follow them into retirement.

This could be read as one hell of a long whine, but please don't. I think these are genuine problems - and I also think we can, to some extent fix them.

Sick and tired,
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Unread 2 Dec 2006, 12:15   #2
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Re: [Long]On dedication, honour and teamplay.

I agree. People in general are more worried about their own ranks rather than their alliance`s rank.
And they dont care hwo to get there. They see an alliance as a place to get defence and to join attack - if they get the targets they like ofc, if not they go solo or with someone else.
The only reason eXi is doing as good as they are, is because they got the least selvish palyers, or, their HC has managed to make them believe inthe team, which will make them all pull the same way.

I remember the golden days where people gladly got farmed for their mates to end top 10. Or lower in the rankings - got farmed so that their mates / HC / GC could end top 100. When this was achieved everyone were happy. All realised they had managed this together.
People gladly escorted people if someone needed help on an attack, they didnt whine if they didnt get roids themselves because they knew that their Alliance got the roids, which really is all that matters in the end.
People joined FC with no possible gain other than to eliminate their enemies. Yes they realised they had enemies, and were willing to loose ranks themselves to see them go further down the rankings.



pia actually got a better community than pa atm imo. its nubish and all, but atleast they fight for their alliance, and dont play the game of - who can get the most pNAPS.-
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I would give me right testicle to be in a gal with you wishmaster!!! wonder if thatd be enough to bribe spinner with hmmmm
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Unread 2 Dec 2006, 12:18   #3
qebab
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Re: [Long]On dedication, honour and teamplay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaster
pia actually got a better community than pa atm imo. its nubish and all, but atleast they fight for their alliance, and dont play the game of - who can get the most pNAPS.-
For this, I agree 100%. I don't think I've ever seen or heard about a planetnap in pia. But even there you see the trend that there is more shipjumping / spying than before. We're a dying race, you and me wish.
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Unread 2 Dec 2006, 12:22   #4
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Re: [Long]On dedication, honour and teamplay.



played since round1, never spied, never had a nap with an alliance my alliance been at war with and never shipjumped.

Yes..we are almost dead.. its so cold..
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Quote:
Originally posted by Newt
I would give me right testicle to be in a gal with you wishmaster!!! wonder if thatd be enough to bribe spinner with hmmmm
<JC`> i sent him a msg saying Wishmaster 0wns, so he recalled
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Unread 2 Dec 2006, 13:14   #5
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Re: [Long]On dedication, honour and teamplay.

I just realized I missed out one of the most important things upon reading it again.

We all suggest new improvements for the game, and bitch at PA team whenever something goes wrong, or whenever they do something we disagree with.

However, I don't see us trying to fix the things we can do on our own. How we play the game is entirely up to us. I don't see many people suggesting how to improve the community...
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Unread 2 Dec 2006, 13:35   #6
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Re: [Long]On dedication, honour and teamplay.

Usualy the older players are more loyal to their alliances, then newer ones. Oldtimers have a history with it, it's part of them and they are part of the alliance. It's the community what keeps em there. While newer players don't have that community feeling. They might feel that the people are nice, but for them that is not enough. While oldtimers don't care how good or bad they are doing gamewise, as long as they can be together with their community. Younger (newer) ones usualy will go and look a alliance what they think is better in rankings etc.
What i try to say, is that oldtimers usualy play more for alliance and younger for their own personal goal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by qebab
The biggest question in my head as I write this is; Where did all the good guys go?
There is time, when people have to choose between online game, and real life. Usually RL wins. So most of the "good" players have retired.
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Unread 2 Dec 2006, 14:07   #7
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Re: [Long]On dedication, honour and teamplay.

Idd Olata. As a recruiter for several rounds I have noticed that the -new- players I have recruited which have played in second tier ( third tier whatever ) and now come wanting to join Omen / whatever other alliance I have been recruiter for have been the first to leave / shipjump when the going gets tough. This doesnt count for all though ofc..and I guess there were alot of twats before also, just that they have quit now..as they never got any community feeling, hence they have left..
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Unread 2 Dec 2006, 14:42   #8
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Re: [Long]On dedication, honour and teamplay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OlaTa
Usualy the older players are more loyal to their alliances, then newer ones. Oldtimers have a history with it, it's part of them and they are part of the alliance. It's the community what keeps em there. While newer players don't have that community feeling. They might feel that the people are nice, but for them that is not enough. While oldtimers don't care how good or bad they are doing gamewise, as long as they can be together with their community. Younger (newer) ones usualy will go and look a alliance what they think is better in rankings etc.
What i try to say, is that oldtimers usualy play more for alliance and younger for their own personal goal.




There is time, when people have to choose between online game, and real life. Usually RL wins. So most of the "good" players have retired.

Though i agree with what qebab says, in my experience alot of the newer players are more willing to play for their alliance and their new alliance mates, though admittedly my experience is rather limited. Just this morning for example we had a player just outside the top 100 pull his attack fleet so that the smaller player that he was attacking with would get a much greater score boost than if they would have landed together.

Their are many more examples of this happening all the time, so don't give up hope yet
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Unread 2 Dec 2006, 14:55   #9
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Re: [Long]On dedication, honour and teamplay.

You sound a lot like I did after round 14. I played that round in the most 'traditional' way possible (decent planet rank, MO for my alliance) and it was physically and mentally exhausting (especially following round 13, where I did pretty much the same thing but on the losing side).

1up in round 13 was thoroughly dispiriting. At times it seemed like there were only a handful of us showing any initiative, whilst everyone else seemed to simply expect the 1up machine to deliver a victory yet again, regardless of their individually stupid choices (half of 1up went Cath, in one of the worst Cath rounds ever). Winning battles against eXilition and LCH was fun, even though we lost the war, but watching SeqZ (who volunteered to be a military officer and then used his access simply to find targets to counter, and had a planet NAP with eXilition) finish ahead of Jester (who went random, ran defence and was easily the best planet player in r13 1up) was annoying, to say the least. I played r14 out of the conviction that 1up should have its revenge; we did win the round and I did get my top 10 rank, but eX didn't play so it was not really the revenge we hoped for.

After that, I swore never to play that actively again (it made me physically ill ). I spent r15 as a solo xp whore, and discovered that it was a quite enjoyable way of playing the game. In r16 I did the same again, but as part of a group

Without wishing to sound like an Ascendancy PR gimp, I think perhaps we have the right idea about how to play PA. We're having fun without ruining our lives to do it, and the loyalty and camaraderie is excellent precisely because we don't try to be a totalitarian alliance controlling every aspect of our members' behaviour, nor do we get upset about losing roids. The problem for many alliances now seems to be that they are fighting a losing battle between the demands of RL (which say that staying up all night is bad, and getting attacked a lot is also bad) and the demands of traditional PA alliances (which want you up at 3am to send def, and expect you to never make a planet NAP). Ironically, part of the reason that we have as many roids as we do is because we don't tire ourselves out by staying up all night, every night. Most alliances burn out and collapse before the finish line, like a marathon runner who starts to sprint too early.
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Unread 2 Dec 2006, 15:35   #10
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Re: [Long]On dedication, honour and teamplay.

or..just remove XP.
Make stats which makes it possible to defend.
Make -fun- stats
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Quote:
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I would give me right testicle to be in a gal with you wishmaster!!! wonder if thatd be enough to bribe spinner with hmmmm
<JC`> i sent him a msg saying Wishmaster 0wns, so he recalled
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Unread 2 Dec 2006, 15:36   #11
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Re: [Long]On dedication, honour and teamplay.

I think it has been said before but the importance of XP has caused the move away from dedication and loyalty, and consequently the "alliance mentality". From my expierience this round, there is no longer a need to protect your roids unless you are a value player.

And with the amount of XP players in an alliance, def is harder to come by making being a value player frustrating. Between ziks trying to fleet catch me on my attacks and a large amout of inc seeking to gain some of my value based 200 roids alliance def for me is ridiculous. My point being is that def is becoming more and more obsolete. Hence less of a need for alliances.

I was asked at the beginning of the round by my HC whether i was going to play "traditionally" or "3 Fleeting XP", The question confused me, as what is the need for an alliance if I was going to 3 fleet? Another question I asked myself, is, "Why would an alliance let 3 fleeters inside in the first place".

I promised to stick the round out and have turned my fleet into a anti frig defence machine. But can see where, smaller and newer alliance players could get frustrated and start player for only themselves.

PA has changed. The great feelings of being totally saved by your alliance or saving an alliance mate are fewer and farther between. Although a bit dramatic, I can see a progression toward removing alliance eta altogether and creating more alliances who are a bunch of buddys that attack together.
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Unread 2 Dec 2006, 15:45   #12
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Re: [Long]On dedication, honour and teamplay.

I disagree. 'Being saved by your alliance' generally means having your gal report your incs, and waking up to see green on your overview. It's a mechanical process, where you don't know or care about who defended you.

If defence is less common, defending actually matters. Knowing that someone pulled an attack fleet to help save your roids really means something; knowing that someone wanted an extra def point and was sent to defend you doesn't.
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Unread 2 Dec 2006, 15:48   #13
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Re: [Long]On dedication, honour and teamplay.

there is ofc a culture in PA, which is traditional of all online games, of us and them, vets and noobs. We can all agree that a new player posting on the forums has got a good chance of being shot to shite, even if what they are saying is fundamentally sound. Why? because they are nobody, and nobodys aint entitled to an opinion.

Allthough in the long run, proving yourself to be a vital cog in an alliance, helping out your mates as much as possible, is the best way to earn respect in a game such as PA, unfortunatly it is far too easy for a new player to aim for what they might perceive as instant respect, ie through a high planet rank.

To test this theory at the start of the next round, apply for as many of the top alliances as you can. You will see a lot of similar questions on the apllication forms / interviews but the one that should stick out to you is

'What rank did you finish last round'

Now i'm in the top150 atm, which aint bad for a 're-learning PA round' and you know what, if I see a bud, no matter how good a bud they are, getting FC, normally I would send my shippies even in the face of overwhelming odds, to help spread the losses.

But damn, I want my rank, and I want my shippies, because alliances you havent played with before don't have on their application forms this question

- In your opinion why did you finish at x rank last round.

Alliances only want the cold hard numbers, not the story behind it.
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Unread 2 Dec 2006, 15:55   #14
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Re: [Long]On dedication, honour and teamplay.

Doesn't follow. I have never in my life finished inside top 100 in any webgame, and I don't think there is an alliance in the game that wouldn't take me in if I really wanted to. What you need isn't a rank, it's someone who is willing to vouch for you. The best way to get vouchers is to prove your loyalty, friendship, and to show yourself as a teamplayer and an active guy.
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Unread 2 Dec 2006, 15:55   #15
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Re: [Long]On dedication, honour and teamplay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
I disagree. 'Being saved by your alliance' generally means having your gal report your incs, and waking up to see green on your overview. It's a mechanical process, where you don't know or care about who defended you.
But your alliance saved you. And it is a good feeling. If it happens enough, the player is more likely to respond in the same manner, ie deffing more often and gaining loyalty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
If defence is less common, defending actually matters. Knowing that someone pulled an attack fleet to help save your roids really means something; knowing that someone wanted an extra def point and was sent to defend you doesn't.
I dont think this scenario happens often enough for new/alot players, which in turn, makes them more apt to play for themselves.
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Unread 2 Dec 2006, 15:59   #16
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Re: [Long]On dedication, honour and teamplay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qebab
Doesn't follow. I have never in my life finished inside top 100 in any webgame, and I don't think there is an alliance in the game that wouldn't take me in if I really wanted to. What you need isn't a rank, it's someone who is willing to vouch for you. The best way to get vouchers is to prove your loyalty, friendship, and to show yourself as a teamplayer and an active guy.
idd, I do not disagree with this, I even went so far as to cover what you have said in your response in my original reply.

What I was trying to do is highlight that for newer players, the temptation to think that a good planet rank will earn you instant respect is there.

It's about educating the newer player I guess, unfortunatly the xp whore education is prevailing over the values of having a big fleet which you can use productivly.
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Unread 2 Dec 2006, 17:08   #17
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Re: [Long]On dedication, honour and teamplay.

In my expirience alot of the "old" core of my alliance is the one that sticks around every round and helps out and stays loyal.. But there is always -that- one player. Each damn round I almost get tears in my eyes because there is 1 player that doesnt always have that much to offer but offers what he has anyways.

This round a norweigan player is that player, he offers ships each time I call for def, and he doesnt have much to give. Maybe just 100 Harpies, or 20 Chimeras, but I know he's norweigan and I know he is staying up for helping his allymates.

Theese players gives me hope for the future and makes me happy thinking that there is still hope for PA. Next round I hope this new player will be one of our most actives with a nice defence and attackfleet and can contribute more than he has been able to this round.
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Unread 2 Dec 2006, 18:30   #18
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Re: [Long]On dedication, honour and teamplay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OlaTa
Usualy the older players are more loyal to their alliances, then newer ones. Oldtimers have a history with it, it's part of them and they are part of the alliance. It's the community what keeps em there. While newer players don't have that community feeling. They might feel that the people are nice, but for them that is not enough. While oldtimers don't care how good or bad they are doing gamewise, as long as they can be together with their community. Younger (newer) ones usualy will go and look a alliance what they think is better in rankings etc.
What i try to say, is that oldtimers usualy play more for alliance and younger for their own personal goal.




There is time, when people have to choose between online game, and real life. Usually RL wins. So most of the "good" players have retired.
it certainly doesnt help when higher ranked alliances actively seek out highscore members of alliances further down the ranking as the new players head will swell when approached by a higher ranking alliance
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Unread 2 Dec 2006, 19:00   #19
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Re: [Long]On dedication, honour and teamplay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qebab
I just realized I missed out one of the most important things upon reading it again.

We all suggest new improvements for the game, and bitch at PA team whenever something goes wrong, or whenever they do something we disagree with.

However, I don't see us trying to fix the things we can do on our own. How we play the game is entirely up to us. I don't see many people suggesting how to improve the community...
Reading the original post was like looking into a timewarp of my own head after round 13. Unlike Rob, I couldn't take another round like that. Never again.
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Unread 2 Dec 2006, 19:29   #20
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Re: [Long]On dedication, honour and teamplay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gzambo
it certainly doesnt help when higher ranked alliances actively seek out highscore members of alliances further down the ranking as the new players head will swell when approached by a higher ranking alliance
This is an essential part of the game now though. By making the alliance competition one of "score" and not military power it pays to recruit high score members.
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Unread 2 Dec 2006, 20:20   #21
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Re: [Long]On dedication, honour and teamplay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
This is an essential part of the game now though. By making the alliance competition one of "score" and not military power it pays to recruit high score members.
Erm. If someone leaves an alliance, the score their new alliance gets is only the score from when the player has been out of tag. So if anyone is recruited it is either because of growth potentional or his fleet being usefull for the alliance.
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Unread 2 Dec 2006, 20:22   #22
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Re: [Long]On dedication, honour and teamplay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Erm. If someone leaves an alliance, the score their new alliance gets is only the score from when the player has been out of tag. So if anyone is recruited it is either because of growth potentional or his fleet being usefull for the alliance.
In terms of acquiring new score the score a player has already acquired that round is a very good indicator.
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Unread 2 Dec 2006, 20:26   #23
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Re: [Long]On dedication, honour and teamplay.

The peoblem is not with players leaving their alliance to join another. The problem is that they shipjump, spy and take pnaps.

Leaving ur alliance after a round is fair enough.
Tell them thanks for a nice round, u stay friends with them, and hopefully u work with them again later. In whatever form.

I have been in 100000 alliances in my "career" pia and pa. I dont see that as a problem. I am Omen hardcore core now though..so I m stuck

damn u SB
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Unread 7 Dec 2006, 11:05   #24
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Re: [Long]On dedication, honour and teamplay.

Problem nowadays is that memberbase is to small
almsot everyone knows everyone. there are not good and bad sides anymore
Means its much easier to get a pnap, its much easier to get into an ally, its much easier to shipjump.
I saw it this round, ppl come to me applying, saying they left old ally cause they are noobs and that’s it
Worst is we accepted those people.
Back in old days you had to check with the ally he left for the reasons he did it, if the ally will become more hostile due to the fact taking him. And so on
Why is that not anymore nowadays?
Even a small ally can compete with a big one. The stats are pro attacking, means no matter if you are a good HC or not you have a lot of firepower and even a top ally cant afford to fight you.
This makes some alliances be like a flag in the wind and having stagnant politics almost impossible (I am a friend of stagnant politics as I rather have 1 friend for whole round than 4 friends rotating) rotating politics kill every1 but the strongest ally.

For next round I would either suggest private galaxies and no alliances or more strict rules for the alliance. Like you can’t recruit after tick 36, if a planet leaves score stays, no merges and so on.
Reasons for this:
Private Galaxies would be good as most alliances are dying. The people doing most for ally are burned out. Private Galaxies would lead into Cluster alliances and Cluster alliances bring new Officer/HCs blood and maybe even the alliances again.

Alliances with stricter rules would make ppl more aware what they commit themselves when joining. I mean if you can join and leave an ally whenever you want and threat them if I leave you you lose 5M score the member has more power than it should be. The 5M score he only has cause the ally defended him, cause he got scans from the ally and so on. 1 member leaving is bad for ally. If the member has not the chance he will think more when joining an ally and not just join to see how it looks like in that ally and cause gal needs “xxx” protection.

Hope one of these takes place I would favour private galaxies tbh
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Unread 7 Dec 2006, 11:49   #25
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Re: [Long]On dedication, honour and teamplay.

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear .... sorry Sjor but I don't even know where to start pointing out your wrong point of view and why certain things are actually good for gameplay even though you might not like them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sjor
Problem nowadays is that memberbase is to small
almsot everyone knows everyone. there are not good and bad sides anymore
Means its much easier to get a pnap, its much easier to get into an ally, its much easier to shipjump.
I saw it this round, ppl come to me applying, saying they left old ally cause they are noobs and that’s it
Worst is we accepted those people.
Back in old days you had to check with the ally he left for the reasons he did it, if the ally will become more hostile due to the fact taking him. And so on
Why is that not anymore nowadays?
As you pointed out correctly: "Worst is we accepted those people." It is no more like in the old days because HC's very much dropped that kind of behaviour. Nobody - except yourself - can keep you away from not accepting people, nor from not declaring war on an alliance that poached your members.
Apart from that, there have been planet / gal naps since almost always.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sjor
Even a small ally can compete with a big one. The stats are pro attacking, means no matter if you are a good HC or not you have a lot of firepower and even a top ally cant afford to fight you.
This makes some alliances be like a flag in the wind and having stagnant politics almost impossible (I am a friend of stagnant politics as I rather have 1 friend for whole round than 4 friends rotating) rotating politics kill every1 but the strongest ally.
This is a good thing! I remember rounds where everyone complained after 5 weeks how utterly boring the round would be for everyone except the winning block. Back in the old days I have not seen late-games like in round 15 or this round, where the winner is not decided until very very very late into the round.
And if the strongest ally wins - chapeau! better than having that block consisting of 2/3 of the active universe ruining the round for everyone not with them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sjor
For next round I would either suggest private galaxies and no alliances or more strict rules for the alliance. Like you can’t recruit after tick 36, if a planet leaves score stays, no merges and so on.
Reasons for this:
Private Galaxies would be good as most alliances are dying. The people doing most for ally are burned out. Private Galaxies would lead into Cluster alliances and Cluster alliances bring new Officer/HCs blood and maybe even the alliances again.
Actually it were random galaxies and -1 attack eta which formed cluster alliances due to them being necessary to not get ****ed right away by some planets whcih your alliance hardly could save you from.
On the contrary, private galaxies lead the cluster alliance idea ad absurdum as you tried to not reveal yourself to anyone and rather abuse the new people in the cluster as def sources instead of really cooperating with them like any reasonable person that aims for a long-term benefit would do.
Additionally, you wouldn't see new officers that way. Because private galaxies are consisting of people which know each other already it means that the same people play in the same galaxies doing the same shit over and over again until they quit the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sjor
Alliances with stricter rules would make ppl more aware what they commit themselves when joining. I mean if you can join and leave an ally whenever you want and threat them if I leave you you lose 5M score the member has more power than it should be. The 5M score he only has cause the ally defended him, cause he got scans from the ally and so on. 1 member leaving is bad for ally. If the member has not the chance he will think more when joining an ally and not just join to see how it looks like in that ally and cause gal needs “xxx” protection.
Mainly it is an alliances task to turn itself into something people want to be in. HCs have the responsibility to make their members feel comfortable and to spread fear amongst their enemies, thus effectively making it undesirable for their members to leave their alliance. You cannot expect the game to take away that burden from you.
The problem of creating fear more relates from the strength a well-organised galaxy has compared to a strength an alliance has nowadays (seriously, galaxies with 23 planets are effectively a top 20 ally nowadays, just with better defense options). Also add the unwillingness of most alliances to do the dirty work required.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sjor
Hope one of these takes place I would favour private galaxies tbh
In this case I am glad that hope is a nice but very inefficient thing.
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Unread 7 Dec 2006, 13:09   #26
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Re: [Long]On dedication, honour and teamplay.

name please alliances for next round who have a healty HC team and can compete for #1

for you its ofc great playing for ascendancy and not taking it seriously and beeing able to join/talk/spy on alliances very easy

and today you do not win by own power you win by politics
so we can start play risk instead of pa comes to the same point
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Unread 7 Dec 2006, 13:24   #27
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Re: [Long]On dedication, honour and teamplay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sjor
name please alliances for next round who have a healty HC team and can compete for #1

for you its ofc great playing for ascendancy and not taking it seriously and beeing able to join/talk/spy on alliances very easy
Care to elaborate what this gibberish has to do with your original post which I replied to?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sjor
and today you do not win by own power you win by politics
so we can start play risk instead of pa comes to the same point
And of course in the past you won by your own power like in r7, r9, r10.5 (just to name the worst examples of "your own power" ever, a lot more rounds fit into that) and not by politics (a block effectively is a form of politics, too)?
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Unread 7 Dec 2006, 13:33   #28
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Re: [Long]On dedication, honour and teamplay.

the less stong/good alliances are the better it is for ascendancy as some of you still play for rank
even in a blockwar Ascen ppl would be considered as roidfarms

this round all ascen that played seriously got naps with alliances and made them have a nice round .

i just wanted to say that you are not the right one to talk about alliances behaviour and how they should behave while beeing a "peon"
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Unread 7 Dec 2006, 13:44   #29
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Re: [Long]On dedication, honour and teamplay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sjor
the less stong/good alliances are the better it is for ascendancy as some of you still play for rank
even in a blockwar Ascen ppl would be considered as roidfarms

this round all ascen that played seriously got naps with alliances and made them have a nice round .

i just wanted to say that you are not the right one to talk about alliances behaviour and how they should behave while beeing a "peon"
Would it made any difference if I said it then? Since I do agree with most of Heartless' post, but I'm not playing for my planet nor Ascendancy.
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Unread 7 Dec 2006, 13:49   #30
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Re: [Long]On dedication, honour and teamplay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sjor
the less stong/good alliances are the better it is for ascendancy as some of you still play for rank
even in a blockwar Ascen ppl would be considered as roidfarms

this round all ascen that played seriously got naps with alliances and made them have a nice round .
You are leaning yourself far out of the window here with assuming that I would have a special agenda behind this because I am Ascendancy. Maybe we should dig in the forum archives and get out a few threads where I advocated the things I said in this thread while I was, for example, 1up or even after r10.5 where I retired?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sjor
i just wanted to say that you are not the right one to talk about alliances behaviour and how they should behave while beeing a "peon"
No, but alliances are not there to dictate the gameplay either. It's the players which are free to offer opinions on how they think the game should be, and it's also the players which are free to watch what happened in the past and what is happening at present and thus are able to draw their own conclusions from the analyses they made.

I'd say that qualifies me far more than it does qualify you, given that I actually brought up arguments instead of some fairly poor attempts of propaganda and slandering. Please keep that to alliance discussions.

EDIT: I just found this, which might be of interest for your Sjor:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
HCs are not a representative sample. They tend to get tired a lot earlier than ordinary players, because they work a lot harder.

The solution is probably to reduce the amount of work (of the get-up-at-4am variety) necessary to play the game.

The 'PA lifestyle' is unsustainable, whether it's for 10 weeks, 8 weeks or even 4 weeks.
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Unread 7 Dec 2006, 14:28   #31
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Re: [Long]On dedication, honour and teamplay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fyodor
But your alliance saved you. And it is a good feeling. If it happens enough, the player is more likely to respond in the same manner, ie deffing more often and gaining loyalty.
I don't. If my alliance is winning I simply EXPECT to see green if I get incs. In fact it goes the other way, and I get a bit irritated if I see red incoming uncovered by my alliance, especially if I've worked my way to be "HIGH" priority for defence.

It shouldn't be like that. That isn't how the game should be played. You should want to defend your mates because by doing so, you're helping them and helping the alliance score. I know everyone goes "OMG THAT IS WHY I DO IT" but deepdown it isn't. I wonder how many of you would defend if there was no "defence points" system.

I've had a lot more fun just playing for my galaxy and my friends there this round than in any alliance I've been in. If I'm asked if I have any spare ships, I'll often send them, regardless of whether I was planning to use them for an attack or not. Because I know that at some point in the past or the future, the person I'm defending will defend me. You don't get that with alliances. It's all anonymous "please send to x:x:x eta 7 thanks" from an MO. I have no idea who I'm defending. I have no idea who's defending me.

The only camaradarie in alliances nowadays is people chatting in the channels and idling there. I'd hardly call that "community". I could go into a whole load of channels on IRC where the conversation and community would be better, and they don't need an alliance to bring them together.
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Unread 7 Dec 2006, 15:35   #32
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Re: [Long]On dedication, honour and teamplay.

Hearty that was ahmmm 8 rounds ago or so
my point was
alliances becoming worse and worse
members becoming much more selfish
making less and less members aka less and less fun

was an idea to change it so people have to commit themself more
no AD discussion
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Unread 7 Dec 2006, 15:48   #33
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Re: [Long]On dedication, honour and teamplay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sjor
Hearty that was ahmmm 8 rounds ago or so
my point was
alliances becoming worse and worse
members becoming much more selfish
making less and less members aka less and less fun

was an idea to change it so people have to commit themself more
no AD discussion
Yeah, and my points were that...
a) you cannot blame the game for alliance behaviour. You can blame the members / officers though.
b) the changes you suggested won't fix the initial problem but rather lead to it.

So I see that we both agree that something has to be done in order to increase the memberbase again (something that PA team claims to aim for since ages...).

Leaves us with the question why do people leave or become more selfish? Probably because everyone is tired. Most of us experienced how much effort the old game was, and how much effort is still required by the game nowadays. It's just too damn much activity required for people with a job or other commitments in "real life". Add the point that game does not create the slightest kind of atmosphere for a player.

All of this will not be magically solved by a return of private galaxies. In fact, I am tempted to say that allowing farming again, scrapping the oogooa rule (replacing it with either something hard-coded or removing it completely), and a bunch of other things that widen up the choices a player can make while playing the game might help a lot more than anything else.
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Unread 7 Dec 2006, 16:00   #34
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Re: [Long]On dedication, honour and teamplay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sjor
this round all ascen that played seriously got naps with alliances and made them have a nice round .
Not really.
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Unread 7 Dec 2006, 18:30   #35
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Re: [Long]On dedication, honour and teamplay.

Imo XP is one of the factors that ruins this game. People want to gain roids and don't mind too much keeping them, wich lowers the importence of def. Another thing I've noticed is since people don't care that much of keeping their roids, they care even less if anyone else loose them.

I came back to play r15 after quitting before PAX and ever since that I've had the opinion that the game mechanics need to be changed so that keeping your roids is more important than it is now. So that people would quit beeing so thick headed about this XP and landing attacks, which makes them suicide fleets to only spend their resources on rebuilding attackfleets.

This results in many players haveing hardly any defence fleets, so they help out on defence even less, if they even do it at all. I do understand those players that choose that style of playing and don't excpect receiving any def (lo harv ), but those still excpecting defence (and even whine when not getting it) are the ones you could call a cnut.

About honour. There are indeed few people with any honour left in this game. Atleast in alliance politics and also ingal.

From what I've been talking to people about alliance politics on irc, many have had the opinion that the honourable thing to do is foolish, and the reason for them to usually think so is because they say "everyone else play ugly anyways so we won't survive if we don't". Sad to see that this is the way this game has gone. Would be nice to start a group of tough players that have no intentions of winning, but focus on bashing alliances that are acting shit.

What makes me even more sick is having seen allym8's saying that they play for alliance, so it's a good thing to backstab your galm8's. Like waiting for galm8's from enemy alliances to go offline and then get them launched at and not report it, resulting in the planet having no chance of ally defence.
What sickens me is people telling me that I should do the same if I'm loyal to my alliance. Sure you do a good thing for your alliance by doing that, but it sure as hell takes away the honour in the game. And me, as more of an "old school" player still like to keep my honour.
Does that make me not loyal to my alliance? Imo it does, since it shows that my alliance has people in it that aren't twats.
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Unread 7 Dec 2006, 18:50   #36
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Re: [Long]On dedication, honour and teamplay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buly
Imo XP is one of the factors that ruins this game. People want to gain roids and don't mind too much keeping them, wich lowers the importence of def. Another thing I've noticed is since people don't care that much of keeping their roids, they care even less if anyone else loose them.

I came back to play r15 after quitting before PAX and ever since that I've had the opinion that the game mechanics need to be changed so that keeping your roids is more important than it is now. So that people would quit beeing so thick headed about this XP and landing attacks, which makes them suicide fleets to only spend their resources on rebuilding attackfleets.

This results in many players haveing hardly any defence fleets, so they help out on defence even less, if they even do it at all. I do understand those players that choose that style of playing and don't excpect receiving any def (lo harv ), but those still excpecting defence (and even whine when not getting it) are the ones you could call a cnut.
Suggest a different way of making people continue playing the game after they lost their fleet for the first time. I think XP is a nice way to keep the round open and balanced, and as you can see we haven't really had stagnation in PAX. Yes, this does make rounds more exhaustive, but it keeps them a lot more interesting, too. So I think it is primarily a good thing.

The case with defense is a different one. Prelaunch and more attack-oriented stats are supporting the issue of not seeing many defense fleets. Is this a good or a bad thing, though? Clearly for those people which hate losing roids this is a bad thing, overall it is a good thing, though. Stagnation does not just come from forming blocks, but also from making it too easy to hold on to your roids (=> exponential growth etc).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buly
About honour. There are indeed few people with any honour left in this game. Atleast in alliance politics and also ingal.

From what I've been talking to people about alliance politics on irc, many have had the opinion that the honourable thing to do is foolish, and the reason for them to usually think so is because they say "everyone else play ugly anyways so we won't survive if we don't". Sad to see that this is the way this game has gone. Would be nice to start a group of tough players that have no intentions of winning, but focus on bashing alliances that are acting shit.

What makes me even more sick is having seen allym8's saying that they play for alliance, so it's a good thing to backstab your galm8's. Like waiting for galm8's from enemy alliances to go offline and then get them launched at and not report it, resulting in the planet having no chance of ally defence.
What sickens me is people telling me that I should do the same if I'm loyal to my alliance. Sure you do a good thing for your alliance by doing that, but it sure as hell takes away the honour in the game. And me, as more of an "old school" player still like to keep my honour.
Does that make me not loyal to my alliance? Imo it does, since it shows that my alliance has people in it that aren't twats.
Dude, Planetarion is supposed to be a wargame. There is no such thing like honour in a war. You decide upon what you want to do, and you do it or not. And usually the people I am in a galaxy with (no matter if random or buddy pack people) understand it that I cannot defend against my alliance and their partners if they attack my galaxy, but on the other hand I understand that they cannot defend me vice-versa. The issue with alliance / galaxy has existed ever since, it might be tougher with the galaxy-system we have now, though, since you are no longer forming block-galaxies. But it's all just an issue of being able to adapt to a system or not.
So just to clearify - I do understand your concerns here, but how should the game be able to solve it?
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Unread 7 Dec 2006, 19:08   #37
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Re: [Long]On dedication, honour and teamplay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
I think XP is a nice way to keep the round open and balanced, and as you can see we haven't really had stagnation in PAX.
Agreed, XP is a really good feature and can keep people interested.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
The case with defense is a different one. Prelaunch and more attack-oriented stats are supporting the issue of not seeing many defense fleets. Is this a good or a bad thing, though?
Defence in general has alot of parameters. Prelaunch has caused alot of problems to alliances with DCs burning out due to having to be online at odd times and ofcourse the members being called etc.

Imo i would remove prelaunch or make it +2 max. To give you an example this round a member of my alliance was hit almost daily at 3:00 to 4:00 am by 9-10 prelaunched fleets.

From their side they just had to pre-launch and go to sleep early. But from our side we needed a DC on when incs appeared and to call people.

Imo i would switch pre-launch for attack to +2 max or remove it totaly. It would increase the margin abit between actives and inactives but well actives keep this game alive right?
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Unread 7 Dec 2006, 19:19   #38
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Re: [Long]On dedication, honour and teamplay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoshuro
From their side they just had to pre-launch and go to sleep early. But from our side we needed a DC on when incs appeared and to call people.
Well that's the problem with that DC issue. It's far more productive to go to bed early and wake up early again - with a decent galaxy that's not even a problem at all.
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Unread 7 Dec 2006, 19:25   #39
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Re: [Long]On dedication, honour and teamplay.

ascendancy playing seriously?
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Unread 7 Dec 2006, 19:31   #40
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Re: [Long]On dedication, honour and teamplay.

Just give the planet under attack a in-game mail from his "intel department" saying: u got prelaunched incs which will arrive in our sector tick xxx.
Then you can FA the fleet heading your way as long as u got the needed research to do so. How many amps you got and how many distorters he got doesnt matter. You will be able to FA him WHILE IN PRELAUNCH. ( prelaunch is all fleets not launched within the same hour as it leaves base )
This way you can give the active players a way to know what they got coming..and when, and u can let the nubs and people which cba to get up to launch an option to launch..yet not as good as if they DO get up.

Also, make it cost resources to prelaunch, so that it cant be abused ( getting 1000k mails about prelaunch = not fun in the long run)

--
on a sidenote about def points and u asking who would send def without def points.. in [email protected] most alliances do NOT use a def point system. _Yet they send out fleets to help their alliancemates.
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Unread 7 Dec 2006, 20:06   #41
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Re: [Long]On dedication, honour and teamplay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
In my expirience alot of the "old" core of my alliance is the one that sticks around every round and helps out and stays loyal.. But there is always -that- one player. Each damn round I almost get tears in my eyes because there is 1 player that doesnt always have that much to offer but offers what he has anyways.

This round a norweigan player is that player, he offers ships each time I call for def, and he doesnt have much to give. Maybe just 100 Harpies, or 20 Chimeras, but I know he's norweigan and I know he is staying up for helping his allymates.

Theese players gives me hope for the future and makes me happy thinking that there is still hope for PA. Next round I hope this new player will be one of our most actives with a nice defence and attackfleet and can contribute more than he has been able to this round.
Davidsr, it was an honor playing in the same gal(twice I think), and same ally as you. You're one in a million, always been, too bad there ain't more ppl like you or like Kargool's guy.
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Unread 7 Dec 2006, 21:24   #42
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Re: [Long]On dedication, honour and teamplay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rain
Davidsr, it was an honor playing in the same gal(twice I think), and same ally as you. You're one in a million, always been, too bad there ain't more ppl like you or like Kargool's guy.
Davidsr is indeed great. Online late, and always offering if he has something.
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Unread 7 Dec 2006, 22:57   #43
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Re: [Long]On dedication, honour and teamplay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
Suggest a different way of making people continue playing the game after they lost their fleet for the first time. I think XP is a nice way to keep the round open and balanced, and as you can see we haven't really had stagnation in PAX. Yes, this does make rounds more exhaustive, but it keeps them a lot more interesting, too. So I think it is primarily a good thing.




The case with defense is a different one. Prelaunch and more attack-oriented stats are supporting the issue of not seeing many defense fleets. Is this a good or a bad thing, though? Clearly for those people which hate losing roids this is a bad thing, overall it is a good thing, though. Stagnation does not just come from forming blocks, but also from making it too easy to hold on to your roids (=> exponential growth etc).
Sure I do agree with that too. I like the idea of limiting the pre-launches though, or Wishmasters idea. Just make this game less attackorientated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
Dude, Planetarion is supposed to be a wargame. There is no such thing like honour in a war. You decide upon what you want to do, and you do it or not. And usually the people I am in a galaxy with (no matter if random or buddy pack people) understand it that I cannot defend against my alliance and their partners if they attack my galaxy, but on the other hand I understand that they cannot defend me vice-versa. The issue with alliance / galaxy has existed ever since, it might be tougher with the galaxy-system we have now, though, since you are no longer forming block-galaxies. But it's all just an issue of being able to adapt to a system or not.
So just to clearify - I do understand your concerns here, but how should the game be able to solve it?
I fully agree about the ingal def. When an alliance becomes hostile then no def. Nothing wrong with defending ingal with neutral alliances, as long as it's returned.
No honour in war, well that's real war when it's about life and death. This isn't. I understand your point about not defending and vice versa, but starting to backstab by the ways I mentioned goes to far. This is indeed something that the game can't do anything about, but something the community can.

Alliances shouldn't accept members doing stuff like that. And if they find out members are doing that kind of shit they should just kick them and roid them. Not gonna happen in this community though, since everyone would have to be in on it in order to make it work. Same thing as trying to get a deal up within alliances to stop giving out p-naps and not accepting shipjumpers.
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Unread 10 Dec 2006, 17:11   #44
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Re: [Long]On dedication, honour and teamplay.

I Disagree I think its more the opposite but I think a better analogy would be higher ranked vs lower ranked.

I think the higher in the rankings you go the more selfish you will get and those things like pnaps will be more prevalent and the more likely they will jump ship if they think it will improve their rankings.

Whilst a lower ranked player outside top 100 really doesn’t care so much about rankings and is only playing for fun/alliance.

Take for example my personal experience in a top gal.

It was my first time being zik understandably I was excited being in a top gal we attracted quite a few brand new players like a flame to a moth. Even when I said I was sending ships to steal the inc. this massive uber planet would swoop in and steal the lot. He would also send ships that where not needed so in the end I’d be left with like 7 beetles.

I remember waking up once seeing the gal had incomings and attempting to try and coordinate some defence(badly I may add) but did I really deserve a ear bashing off another high ranked player calling me selfish.

I remember messing up a defence mission one time all of a sudden you guessed it another uber player accuses me of purposely messing it up.

In the end we all sorted it out and I even got an apology but it was hardly a pleasant experience.

I would like to counter all this negativity by offering thanks to all those people in my alliance who let my el crapo fleet team up with them I would also like to give special thanks to Spetzer.
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