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Unread 11 Nov 2011, 21:23   #1
DarkHeart
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11/11/11

The soldier stood and faced his God, Which must always come to pass. He hoped his shoes were shining, Just as brightly as his brass.

'Step forward now, you soldier, How shall I deal with you? have you always turned the other cheek? To my Church have you been true?'

The soldier squared his shoulders and said,

'No, Lord, I guess I aint, because those of us who carry guns, can't always be a saint. I've had to work most Sundays, and at times my talk was tough. And sometimes I've been violent, because the world is awfully rough. But i never took a penny, that wasn' mine to keep though i worked a lot of overtime, when the bills got just too steep. and i never passed a cry for help, Though at times i shook with fear. And sometimes God, forgive me I've wept unmanly tears. I know i dont deserve a place, among the people here. They never wanted me around, except to clam their fears. if you've a place for me here, lord, it needn't be so grand. i never expected or had too much, but if you dont i'll understand'.

There was a silence all around the throne, were the saints had often trod. as the soldier waited quietly, for the judgement of his God.

'Step forward now, you soldier, you've borne your burdens well. Walk peacfully on heavens streets, you've served your time in hell........

Lest we forget
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Unread 11 Nov 2011, 21:49   #2
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Re: 11/11/11

For The Fallen
With proud thanksgiving, a mother for her children,
England mourns for her dead across the sea.
Flesh of her flesh they were, spirit of her spirit,
Fallen in the cause of the free.

Solemn the drums thrill; Death august and royal
Sings sorrow up into immortal spheres,
There is music in the midst of desolation
And a glory that shines upon our tears.

They went with songs to the battle, they were young,
Straight of limb, true of eye, steady and aglow.
They were staunch to the end against odds uncounted;
They fell with their faces to the foe.

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years contemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.

They mingle not with their laughing comrades again;
They sit no more at familiar tables of home;
They have no lot in our labour of the day-time;
They sleep beyond England's foam.

But where our desires are and our hopes profound,
Felt as a well-spring that is hidden from sight,
To the innermost heart of their own land they are known
As the stars are known to the Night;

As the stars that shall be bright when we are dust,
Moving in marches upon the heavenly plain;
As the stars that are starry in the time of our darkness,
To the end, to the end, they remain.
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Unread 11 Nov 2011, 22:06   #3
Mzyxptlk
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Re: 11/11/11

Forget what?
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Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 11 Nov 2011 at 22:07. Reason: Oh, that.
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Unread 11 Nov 2011, 22:17   #4
DarkHeart
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Re: 11/11/11

i really really hope that wasnt meant to be humerous mz. thats a new low if it was.
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Unread 11 Nov 2011, 22:19   #5
Mzyxptlk
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Re: 11/11/11

"We" didn't fight in that one.

In any case, I don't see the point in going all teary-eyed over a war that ended almost a century ago. I'd rather worry about the ones still going.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 11 Nov 2011, 22:23   #6
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Re: 11/11/11

Then assume he wasn't including you in his use of "we".
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Unread 11 Nov 2011, 22:24   #7
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Re: 11/11/11

its not just about remembering 'that one' Armistice day has come to signify so much more than just that day. for so many. and tbh i feel its so relevant to us all regardless of nationality, creed or religion.

It's worth remembering the sacrifices of all of our fallen, not just the fallen from one nation in one war.
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Unread 11 Nov 2011, 23:14   #8
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Re: 11/11/11

By 'we' does he mean Americans?? and by 'that one' does he mean WW1??


I dunno where mz is from
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Unread 12 Nov 2011, 00:25   #9
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Re: 11/11/11

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkHeart View Post
its not just about remembering 'that one' Armistice day has come to signify so much more than just that day. for so many. and tbh i feel its so relevant to us all regardless of nationality, creed or religion.

It's worth remembering the sacrifices of all of our fallen, not just the fallen from one nation in one war.
Yeah, that sounds nice, but I don't think that's actually possible. By remembering all the fallen, you make an assumption that I believe is incorrect, namely that sacrifice is always worth honouring. I think sacrifice is only worth honouring if the goal is right.

I'll sidestep the precarious question of which side in which war was right and wrong (I'm neither qualified to make that judgement, nor do I believe anyone is), but it should be fairly straightforward to see that if two sides in a conflict have such a fundamental difference of opinion on what the right goal is that they're willing to kill each other over it, then they cannot both be right.

Interestingly, while both sides in a conflict can't be right, they can both be wrong. This is not just true in war, either. If Alice says 1 + 1 is 4 and Bob says that Alice is a ****ing moron and that 1 + 1 is in fact 3, then neither is worthy of our praise.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
By 'we' does he mean Americans?? and by 'that one' does he mean WW1??
I'm Dutch. And yes, we lucked out on that one.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 12 Nov 2011, 00:50   #10
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Re: 11/11/11

don't ovecomplicate a simple thing mz. The reasons for war can be debated for centuries without an agreed conclusion as to who was right or who was wrong.

We remember those we have lost. On all sides. More often than not they were not the policy makers, but they were the ones who laid down their lives.

Lest we forget.
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Unread 12 Nov 2011, 04:54   #11
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Re: 11/11/11

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkHeart View Post
don't ovecomplicate a simple thing mz. The reasons for war can be debated for centuries without an agreed conclusion as to who was right or who was wrong.

We remember those we have lost. On all sides. More often than not they were not the policy makers, but they were the ones who laid down their lives.

Lest we forget.
War doesn't determine who is right only who is still left.
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Unread 12 Nov 2011, 11:53   #12
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Re: 11/11/11

Had to kill a perfectly good point there paisley with an erroneous 'still'.
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Unread 12 Nov 2011, 12:25   #13
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Re: 11/11/11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
War doesn't determine who is right only who is still left.
Actually, war determines only who gets to write the history books. As for mz's question 'forget what' just because the Commonwealth fought a war, and it is called a World War doesn't mean every country participated. Like he said the dutch were Neutral in that war (and would have remained neutral in WW2 too, but Hitler and his generals decided Holland could become a strategic staging ground for the English if they had remained neutral, and therefor occupied Holland). As we passed by on the horrific trenchwar, our history books tell very little on the subject of WW1 (as compared to WW2, and more ancient wars the Dutch were involved in), and therefore armastice/remembrance/poppy-day. And are much more focused around the other big one, with our own remembrance day on may 4th, a day before the capitulation of the german occupational forces in Holland.
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Unread 12 Nov 2011, 12:28   #14
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Re: 11/11/11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
By 'we' does he mean Americans?? and by 'that one' does he mean WW1??
Actually, the Americans didn't 'luck out' on WW1, and lost ~127.000 young men on European soil.
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Unread 12 Nov 2011, 13:12   #15
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Re: 11/11/11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Influence View Post
Actually, war determines only who gets to write the history books.
Funny enough you should say that I wonder why the likes of I.G Farben supplying the Germans upto and during WW2 isn't to be seen in the UK school curriculum.

Seeing how the U.S, War Department concluded that....

Without I. G.'s immense productive facilities, its intense re. search, and vast international affiliations, Germany's prosecution of the war would have been unthinkable and impossible; Farben not only directed its energies toward arming Germany, but concentrated on weakening her intended victims, and this double-barreled attempt to expand the German industrial potential for war and to restrict that of the rest of the world was not conceived and executed "in the normal course of business." The proof is overwhelming that I. G. Farben officials had full prior knowledge of Germany's plan for world conquest and of each specific aggressive act later undertaken
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Unread 12 Nov 2011, 21:44   #16
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Re: 11/11/11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
Funny enough you should say that I wonder why the likes of I.G Farben supplying the Germans upto and during WW2 isn't to be seen in the UK school curriculum.

Seeing how the U.S, War Department concluded that....

Without I. G.'s immense productive facilities, its intense re. search, and vast international affiliations, Germany's prosecution of the war would have been unthinkable and impossible; Farben not only directed its energies toward arming Germany, but concentrated on weakening her intended victims, and this double-barreled attempt to expand the German industrial potential for war and to restrict that of the rest of the world was not conceived and executed "in the normal course of business." The proof is overwhelming that I. G. Farben officials had full prior knowledge of Germany's plan for world conquest and of each specific aggressive act later undertaken
I'm more curious why the precise details of the battle of Stalingrad down to and including individual names of battalion commanders on either side aren't in UK history books. Global conspiracy I say...
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Unread 12 Nov 2011, 21:48   #17
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Re: 11/11/11

(man, i'll not flame this thread, even though it's really tempting)
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Unread 13 Nov 2011, 17:27   #18
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Re: 11/11/11

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
aren't in UK history books.

It´s called selective propaganda - the information you seek is deff available.
Maybe the facts scared the brits a little too much - afterall one had to hate ze germans at that point - not ze russians -
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Unread 13 Nov 2011, 21:53   #19
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Re: 11/11/11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killeah View Post
It´s called selective propaganda - the information you seek is deff available.
Maybe the facts scared the brits a little too much - afterall one had to hate ze germans at that point - not ze russians -
Some see this some don't
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Unread 14 Nov 2011, 23:47   #20
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Re: 11/11/11

Well, that was certainly the death knell of satire if ever there was one.

From now on I'll be straight up.

Paisley, you're an idiot. The reason IG Farben aren't frequently mentioned in textbooks is the same reason no companies are frequently mentioned in school textbooks. They're school ****ing textbooks.
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Unread 15 Nov 2011, 14:03   #21
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Re: 11/11/11

Why isn't monetary theory taught in schools?
from today's perspective.

Back to history now...

From a school classroom.

The Dawes Plan was the result of negotiations between Germany and the US Government. The plan allowed the co-ordination of reparations repayments, making these more manageable. This involved paying reduced payments until 1929, when the situation would be reappraised. The scale of the reassessment is worthy to note, reparations payments in 1922 had been some $2 billion, the figure for 1914 was set at $50million. This large reduction in reparations payments was accompanied by a loan of $200 million from the US government which would allow for heavy investment in the German infrastructure. Linked to this agreement was the introduction of the new Reichsbank and the replacement of the old German Mark with the Rentenmark. The Dawes plan also provided for the gradual removal of French and Belgian troops from the Rhineland.

They are hardly going to put in ...

Hitler’s main source of economic power was from the I.G. Farben chemical cartel, The I.G. Farben cartel was created by loans from Wall Street in what has been called the Dawes plan. Carroll Quigley calls the Dawes Plan "largely a J.P. Morgan production." The J.P. Morgan Group set up the loan to I.G. Farben, Without the capital supplied by Wall Street, there would have been no I.G. Farben in the first place. Henry Ford
[Yes, this is the same guy who mass production method for the t -model is taught in schools. ]
merged his German assets with I.G. Farben in 1928.
The cartel created the lethal Zyklon B gas that was used to exterminate the Jews.
At first Germany had a significant disadvantage if they were to embark on a second world war. The nation had a fuel shortage, The Germans were able to fight WWII through the use of synthetic fuels that were created by the hydrogenation process (turning coal into gasoline).this fixed this problem.
I.G farben was the driving force behind the Hydrogenation process.

It would make an interesting parent child conversation.

"What Did you learn from school today?"
"The bankers were screwing my grand / great grand parents back then as they are today"

Back to the topic...

Greed being satisfied at the cost of human life.

My thoughts on remembrance day was what a waste of life that was the price paid for a minorities appetite for greed.

Regardless of what side they fought on.
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Unread 15 Nov 2011, 14:47   #22
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Re: 11/11/11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
"What Did you learn from school today?"
"The bankers were screwing my grand / great grand parents back then as they are today"

I'll answer on my behalf:
"The people in the world were screwing today's people's grand/great grand parents back then as they are today even before the invention of banking".

It's really difficult to understand where the immense need to demonize banking comes from, given as totalitarism, oppression and inequality with all their sideproducts were already around before the banking system anywhere near the kind it has been from the 19th century onwards was around.
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Unread 15 Nov 2011, 23:51   #23
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Re: 11/11/11

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
I'll answer on my behalf:
"The people in the world were screwing today's people's grand/great grand parents back then as they are today even before the invention of banking".

It's really difficult to understand where the immense need to demonize banking comes from, given as totalitarism, oppression and inequality with all their sideproducts were already around before the banking system anywhere near the kind it has been from the 19th century onwards was around.
My answer would have been "Whatever Anthony C Sutton wanted me to think". But hey, at least Paisley's actually reading a book.
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Unread 17 Nov 2011, 20:29   #24
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Re: 11/11/11

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
I'll answer on my behalf:
"The people in the world were screwing today's people's grand/great grand parents back then as they are today even before the invention of banking".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
It's really difficult to understand where the immense need to demonize banking comes from, given as totalitarism, oppression and inequality with all their sideproducts were already around before the banking system anywhere near the kind it has been from the 19th century onwards was around.
If you want to find the first on record just look to Genesis 47
... Joseph and the technicolour 20% grain tax.
All done through cornering the market and then hoarding of money/currency to engineer a economic crisis, and then profit from it in the long term at the cost of the masses when the solution is presented.
I.E. the same that central banks have done historically and will do in the Future.

hence my need to demonize banks.

In the case of WW2, (trying to remain on topic) one side Germany was propped up as explained in previous posts and the other had to counter this by borrowing to raise a suffient armed force to counter this.
Guess who profits from it?

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My answer would have been "Whatever Anthony C Sutton wanted me to think". But hey, at least Paisley's actually reading a book.
I haven't read this book but thanks for bringing this book to my attention.
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Unread 17 Nov 2011, 21:59   #25
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Re: 11/11/11

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All done through cornering the market and then hoarding of money/currency to engineer a economic crisis, and then profit from it in the long term at the cost of the masses when the solution is presented.
The mankind was very well able to enslave, cast into poverty, murder, plunder, and rape people even during the period when banking was more or less explicitly forbidden by the church. I mean, people will find ways of doing these whether or not there is a banking system around. Egyptians were able to build pyramids without a banking system of any meaningfulness, and I don't think the workers building them were too happy about getting to be a part of building of a miracle.

It's really strange to think that if the banking system and everything related was to suddenly be abolished it'd somehow magically end inequality. Or even dramatically reduce it.
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Unread 22 Nov 2011, 17:55   #26
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Re: 11/11/11

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The mankind was very well able to enslave, cast into poverty, murder, plunder, and rape people even during the period when banking was more or less explicitly forbidden by the church.
Usury was indeed banned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
I mean, people will find ways of doing these whether or not there is a banking system around. Egyptians were able to build pyramids without a banking system of any meaningfulness, and I don't think the workers building them were too happy about getting to be a part of building of a miracle.
Again I am pointing out it comes from the same means of entrapment as I described in my last post... I.E. the banking system is following the same method/evil as per genesis 47 and the golden 1920's and the crash of 1929 and the repercussions up to 1933.

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It's really strange to think that if the banking system and everything related was to suddenly be abolished it'd somehow magically end inequality. Or even dramatically reduce it.
I am watching Iceland with great interest and for some reason it is hard to get any mainstream news (I mean the likes of the BBC etc) just seems as if there is a media backout or something on it since Iceland kicked out the bankers.
However I did find some information on it.

http://sacsis.org.za/site/article/728.1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP1J3HXOZIc
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/its...rs-second-time
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP1J3HXOZIc
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/11/15-3

Again Libya was doing good with its gold dinar currency.
gold backed / non fiat, issued interest free currency unlike the US dollar.
Until it threatened the US dollar as the currency for oil purchasing and NATO coming along and bombing the infrastructure and then installing a new puppet government.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuqZfaj34nc
http://rt.com/news/interview-libya-nato-intrusion-127/
http://seeker401.wordpress.com/2011/...the-stone-age/
http://beyondmoney.net/2011/11/16/di...wer-structure/

Also Goldman Sachs hostile takeover of Greece and Italy
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bu...e-6264091.html
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Unread 23 Nov 2011, 18:33   #27
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Re: 11/11/11

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Usury was indeed banned.
And the world was a great better a place where the weak many were not enslaved by the strong few. Glory, glory.
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Unread 23 Nov 2011, 18:40   #28
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Re: 11/11/11

You're putting up a straw man with this "the weak will always be exploited, so why do anything at all?" argument.
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Unread 23 Nov 2011, 18:45   #29
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Re: 11/11/11

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
You're putting up a straw man with this "the weak will always be exploited, so why do anything at all?" argument.
Am I?

I've tried to elaborate it and ask for argumentation, but I've never quite understood how exactly is the financial system inherently so evil. I can't perceive it being any more evil than the people holding the power - which seems to be the case in very many historical events. It could be argued, that dictatorship as a form of governance isn't inherently evil or wrong or even bad - it's the dictator making it so. You would find thousands of academic economical papers on why say Bretton Woods was a failure, and why it doesn't work - and what are the issues in compared to a more modern system (touted "fiat money system" by the critics), but of course, this is all a part of a conspiracy.

It is very difficult to see the "real" problem with the banking system apart from greedy people and imperfect information - but these are universal issues that happen to have a very real meaning everywhere, be there banking system or not.
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Unread 23 Nov 2011, 19:00   #30
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Re: 11/11/11

The financial system does everyone a lot of good, and a little bit of bad. Enacting laws that work against the bad will make it harder for the strong to exploit the weak. While it would be silly to think we can somehow stop all exploitation (human ingenuity will always find a way...), stemming the bleeding from one wound, even if there are two elsewhere on the body, is better than letting the patient haemorrhage from three.
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Unread 23 Nov 2011, 19:15   #31
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Re: 11/11/11

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I don't think the financial system is inherently evil. I do think that laws that protect against specific types of exploitation make it harder to exploit the weak. If you're bleeding from two wounds, stemming the bleeding from one won't make you healthy, but it'll help.
Or if your hand is infected, it's better to treat it than to amputate the entire arm just for the sake of fighting conspiracy. Few are better aware then economists of the issues related to imperfect information (and honestly, I'm not sure if I've heard Paisley toss critique at Standard & Poor's, Finch, or Moody's yet, but they're probably a modern example of corruption, but in such sense have little to do with "monetary system"). It's a subject with tonnes of research thrown into it. It's obviously an oxymoron - perfect information cannot really exist. However, movements like zeitgeist are nothing but uneducated flashy shows that solve the current economy's problems by simply surpassing them.

In the case of zeitgeist, a perfect resource economy - of course, if there is an infinite amount of resources, or people are happy with a much smaller a share of resources they have right now, the system will work. sadly, we're working with a scarcity - thus we need a system to allocate, and so far, the monetary system with all it's flaws has been one of the better ones. You get looped with an infinite amount of blog reports painting conspiracy theories (in the sense of JFK and the money base issue), which will probably fight against any "expert opinion" (expert opinion which is neglected, because it's a conspiracy). If this isn't a strawman, I don't k now what is.

What comes to the example case Iceland, it wasn't the banking system that got that country ****ed. It wasn't the monetary system either. I may have been through this before, but the case was about so called love letters (the Kaarlo Jännäri report is the one I'm personally more familiar with since he used to be the chairman of the local financial supervision agency. an easier to read brief rant on it can be found here - with the added bonus of EU). These were, in all sense, madness to begin with, but for some reason a central bank essentially part of a democratic system managed to accept them anyways and cause a leveraged debt bubble. None of it made any sense. The committee that researched the case a a posteriori was baffled about why the central bank had issued loans against these so called love letters. It takes a minimum of great amounts of courage (I'll try not to use derogatory words here) to blame this on "fundamental features" of the monetary system. Supervision was in place, rules were set. The rules were ignored, the supervision was fooled. What resulted? A problem of the banking system?

I'll revert to a simple analogy of a grocery store. A grocery store (in the fiat money system) operates on the premise that people pay for the products. If, however, people simply stopped paying for them, and shoplifted all instead, and this was "all okay" for the police (the supervising agent), the grocery store would soon go bust. Of course, this would be because of the fiat system and international conspiracies to prevent ordinary people from getting food (because, in the end, they all want it for free, and it pisses them off that the grocery store is breaking their 'human right' to free food). Anyone claiming that it'd be a simple issue with the supervisor not doing it's job and part of the agents being "rule breakers" would be labeled a part of a top secret conspiracy. In a zeitgeist system this problem would not exist, because the world would be perfect. You wouldn't need money. You would only need happiness coupons, the government would issue you these after working your communist day guarding the museum paintings in exchange for access to the infinite resources of everything the government possesses.

Greece can hardly blame the banking system for it's current woes. It's self-inflicted through reckless governing and greed of the nation (or the politics, or both). Greece wouldn't be the first nation to simply default on debt, either.


edit - it continued, of course
A generic problem with things like credit agencies is herd mentality, which has also been discussed in both Akerlof's books on the subject (a pre-financial crisis nobelist of economics in the field of asymmetric information). People, simply put, have huge issues behaving rationally. Housing bubbles are typical of this: people watch a trend graph and believe the fact that some ****'s claiming them the housing prices can never collapse. Or that a portfolio can never "go down" because it's so well diversified. Diversification of mortgage backed securities was the big stroke of genius behind what some call Goldman Sachs conspiracy, and we're all eagerly waiting for a similar effect to blow in say Finland. Because here, people take mad mortgages to buy houses, do not understand what the difference between interest rate and bank marginal is, yet claim to know everything and argue that "they'd always get a lot more than they paid for the flat they just purchased, should they end up in trouble paying the reductions and interest rate costs". Familiar? Much too so. Fault of the banking system, which inherently cannot completely control or know what people understand and what they don't, or what is their information and whatnot - despite trying.

In the American case, it wasn't just the banking system causing the so called shitty loans when the cash was splashed around due to balance of accounts structures. The government actively supported and encouraged lending to sub primes. Really, yes. Were they lobbied or simply too dumb to understand? The latter would simply prove they were dumb, the former would put a strange view into the democratic system at large (as a part of the evil banking scheme). I don't, for many moments, believe that Qaddafi (or however you spell it) was overly popular among the people either. Prof. Maliranta wrote a paper that sparked a lot of discussion recently, that highlighted the lack of productivity growth being a real issue to the Finnish wellfare society at large in the future. Debt is a great way to postpone the problem to the future generations. It allows you to avoid doing the hard decisions and enjoy the easier times yourself, while letting the future carry the burden. It's postponing the inevitable.

excuse the edits. i get quite tired of people blaming the monetary system of it's abuse, and much what is little short of fraud, corruption, and thievery. maybe writing longer posts would require more concrete planning of the structure.

Last edited by Tietäjä; 23 Nov 2011 at 19:48.
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Unread 23 Nov 2011, 20:26   #32
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Re: 11/11/11

You won't hear me complain about editing; my entire post was an edit.

Your post was interesting to read, as always. Thanks.
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Unread 28 Nov 2011, 09:48   #33
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Re: 11/11/11

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
excuse the edits. i get quite tired of people blaming the monetary system of it's abuse, and much what is little short of fraud, corruption, and thievery. maybe writing longer posts would require more concrete planning of the structure.
I still haven't seen anything from previous posts from yourself that there is an acknowledgement (either a confirmation or a denial) that there are central banks like the federal reserve who issue money (US $) out at interest and because they have a monopoly on the money (US $) this debt is impossible to pay off.

Whilst we are addressing the strawman we might aswell get this sorted out first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
Or if your hand is infected, it's better to treat it than to amputate the entire arm just for the sake of fighting conspiracy. Few are better aware then economists of the issues related to imperfect information (and honestly, I'm not sure if I've heard Paisley toss critique at Standard & Poor's, Finch, or Moody's yet, but they're probably a modern example of corruption, but in such sense have little to do with "monetary system"). It's a subject with tonnes of research thrown into it. It's obviously an oxymoron - perfect information cannot really exist. However, movements like zeitgeist are nothing but uneducated flashy shows that solve the current economy's problems by simply surpassing them.
Credit agencies cater to large financial institutions
how it is relevant to iceland

I think Iceland's President Olafur Ragnar Grimsson said it best about the credit agencies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
In the case of zeitgeist, a perfect resource economy - of course, if there is an infinite amount of resources, or people are happy with a much smaller a share of resources they have right now, the system will work. sadly, we're working with a scarcity - thus we need a system to allocate, and so far, the monetary system with all it's flaws has been one of the better ones. You get looped with an infinite amount of blog reports painting conspiracy theories (in the sense of JFK and the money base issue), which will probably fight against any "expert opinion" (expert opinion which is neglected, because it's a conspiracy). If this isn't a strawman, I don't k now what is.
Are these the same blogs that point out that when certain US presidents opposed the central banks that are Rothschild operated...
There are either a failed or a successful assassination attempt and then show that there was a historical trend to it?

Again keiz I have to ask if you had a look into the history of Lincoln's Greenbacks? (US government money issued interest free and how this pissed off the International/Rothschild bankers)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
What comes to the example case Iceland, it wasn't the banking system that got that country ****ed. It wasn't the monetary system either. I may have been through this before, but the case was about so called love letters (the Kaarlo Jännäri report is the one I'm personally more familiar with since he used to be the chairman of the local financial supervision agency. an easier to read brief rant on it can be found here - with the added bonus of EU). These were, in all sense, madness to begin with, but for some reason a central bank essentially part of a democratic system managed to accept them anyways and cause a leveraged debt bubble. None of it made any sense. The committee that researched the case a a posteriori was baffled about why the central bank had issued loans against these so called love letters. It takes a minimum of great amounts of courage (I'll try not to use derogatory words here) to blame this on "fundamental features" of the monetary system. Supervision was in place, rules were set. The rules were ignored, the supervision was fooled. What resulted? A problem of the banking system?
I am still researching the Ponzi scheme / mechanism of Icesave's online banking operation via the collapse of Landbanki and how the savings were invested in the mortgage backed derivatives and how that went to shite.

I am looking at Anne Sibert's sources of information quoted on her love letters artical to see if there is anything that can shed some light on this.
Like the book recommendations Keiz again you have my thanks.

However I have found out that ... Then the Icelandic government was expected to then bailout the privatised banks (privatised around 2003)
originally from Iceland via taxation of the population to cover the cost. The Icelandic government then allowed the private banks fail.
From the UK perspective, The UK government then covered the savings of the British customers (via the taxpayers) and then under UK terrorist laws froze Icelands assests in the UK. Even though The UK Treasury said Iceland was in no way considered to be a terrorist regime.

It certainly raises questions about Gordon Brown's motives maybe even his competence also (British prime minister in 2008)

Iceland’s brave resistance is to be commended.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
I'll revert to a simple analogy of a grocery store. A grocery store (in the fiat money system) operates on the premise that people pay for the products. If, however, people simply stopped paying for them, and shoplifted all instead, and this was "all okay" for the police (the supervising agent), the grocery store would soon go bust. Of course, this would be because of the fiat system and international conspiracies to prevent ordinary people from getting food (because, in the end, they all want it for free, and it pisses them off that the grocery store is breaking their 'human right' to free food). Anyone claiming that it'd be a simple issue with the supervisor not doing it's job and part of the agents being "rule breakers" would be labeled a part of a top secret conspiracy. In a zeitgeist system this problem would not exist, because the world would be perfect. You wouldn't need money. You would only need happiness coupons, the government would issue you these after working your communist day guarding the museum paintings in exchange for access to the infinite resources of everything the government possesses.
I do not have this view incase you are aiming this at myself.
Refer to my first paragraph

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
edit - it continued, of course
A generic problem with things like credit agencies is herd mentality, which has also been discussed in both Akerlof's books on the subject (a pre-financial crisis nobelist of economics in the field of asymmetric information). People, simply put, have huge issues behaving rationally. Housing bubbles are typical of this: people watch a trend graph and believe the fact that some ****'s claiming them the housing prices can never collapse. Or that a portfolio can never "go down" because it's so well diversified. Diversification of mortgage backed securities was the big stroke of genius behind what some call Goldman Sachs conspiracy, and we're all eagerly waiting for a similar effect to blow in say Finland. Because here, people take mad mortgages to buy houses, do not understand what the difference between interest rate and bank marginal is, yet claim to know everything and argue that "they'd always get a lot more than they paid for the flat they just purchased, should they end up in trouble paying the reductions and interest rate costs". Familiar? Much too so. Fault of the banking system, which inherently cannot completely control or know what people understand and what they don't, or what is their information and whatnot - despite trying.
I am researching the MF Global crisis which reeks of Ponzi scheme and the John Corzine + Goldman Sachs connection and how Goldman Sachs are planting their guys in key places in certain governments like the USA, Greece and Italy. This seems to be consuming most of my Internet time at the moment. I'll get back to finishing the world enslavement on the fly thread

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...ice-warns.html

However You know that it is a question of WHEN rather than IF.
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Last edited by Paisley; 28 Nov 2011 at 09:50. Reason: fixing quote brackets
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Unread 28 Nov 2011, 17:28   #34
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Re: 11/11/11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
I still haven't seen anything from previous posts from yourself that there is an acknowledgement (either a confirmation or a denial) that there are central banks like the federal reserve who issue money (US $) out at interest and because they have a monopoly on the money (US $) this debt is impossible to pay off.
No, I disagree with this view. I've tried to discuss it, but it seems we will wind up disagreeing - I could, as I said, link an infinite amount of academic discussion about it but it's a vanity since (technically understandably) we will both have our citations and arguments, and we will neither believe the others'. And whilst I'd find economic theory and academia more reliable a source, you will find youtube videos and blogs more so - it's something that cannot truly be contested either way.



I mentioned credit agencies yes. But in the same fashion that I do not consider democracy being inherently evil because there is a widespread corruption in say, Russian system (despite it being a "democracy"), I do not believe the monetary system is a failure because it attracts corruption. More so, I believe a lot of problems could be resolved simply by combating this corruption. I retain my original statement: if there's an infected sore in your hand, it's better to treat it rather than chopping the entire arm off.


Quote:
Again keiz I have to ask if you had a look into the history of Lincoln's Greenbacks? (US government money issued interest free and how this pissed off the International/Rothschild bankers)
No. I'll assume it's another internet conspiracy theory thing. Someone was near-assassinated or assassinated? Western politicians are so uncivilized with their paramilitary intelligence stunts.


Quote:
Iceland’s brave resistance is to be commended.
Iceland's regime's brave idiocy in terms of allowing the banking sector to expand through nonsense-leverage is also to be commended, and is one of the key factors that lead to their grief. Hindsight will find, in addition to the "bankers are cheaters" -stories of Iceland a posteriori, also infinite amounts of a priori stuff about how the Icelandic tigers are going to beat the world and how Icelandic banking system is something to worship. Here we go, for example.

Ironic, isn't it? Give or take a year or two, and the same people end up hating what they used to love and worship. Commendable, perhaps. Ignorant, arrogant, and foolish, definitely.

Here's what I think about ponzi schemes: they're only possible when a) the population is too uneducated and gullible and/or b) the supervision shares the population's problems. Again, I emphasize: an incorruptible system does not exist. Corruption causes systemic problems, and is a great cause of such, and should be fought at all costs. However, a system isn't inherently flawed simply because corruption happens in it. If this would be the case, we could happily shoot down all systems. I've seen many attempts to put communism or socialism or whatever you want to call it, into practise, and all of them have been equally if not more corrupt than democracies and monetary systems at large.

I can remember some vague idea from one of your videos where the government would only issue some happiness-coupon related currency backed up in gold or something, for purposeful projects. Hello? Are we here? We're expecting the same government that gets turbo-lobbied by Wall Street and other folks to be able to pull that off without being ****dumb at it? Seriously? Yes sure.



Quote:
I am researching the MF Global crisis which reeks of Ponzi scheme and the John Corzine + Goldman Sachs connection and how Goldman Sachs are planting their guys in key places in certain governments like the USA, Greece and Italy. This seems to be consuming most of my Internet time at the moment. I'll get back to finishing the world enslavement on the fly thread
Yes. Corruption is a problem with that too, I'm well aware of say a certain Hank Paulson Jr. It's not exactly news.


Quote:
However You know that it is a question of WHEN rather than IF.
Yes, it most likely is a question of when: I predict the people to get buttraped the hardest in the first wave will be those who took a mortgage, and believed that a) the interest rates will never rise due to financial situation so they can handle interest payments no matter what, and/or b) they will never get unemployed or sacked because they are simply so good*, and/or c) should one or two of the previous happen, they can always sell their house on profit because they got it so cheap and face it, housing prices must always go up. I mean, stupidity IS expensive isn't it. Nobody's forcing you to make these choices: all the education on it is freely available on the internet, there is tons of economic research in places like econpapers and syndicate, in addition to the youtube videos (the good, the bad, and the conspiracy ones).

If you really don't get it, then you can mostly blame yourself.

(*and they are worth every penny of their work; in fact, the average western isn't that much more productive than the Chinese, probably: it's a question of tech rather than labour, and unless parity happens in China, the western worker will have to learn to live with the fact that maybe his work wasn't worth that much either)
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Unread 28 Nov 2011, 17:31   #35
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Re: 11/11/11

And really, the big reason why corps like GS and other lobbyists and cronies are able to push things so hard in their way is complacency: people in the west have simply had things so piss easy and light on them that they've not understood or cared. It's all been given to them on a sugar-filled gold spoon, served by an illegal Mexican immigrant working off for a fiver a day, and they've taken it for granted, and assumed they're so worth it.

Now when they're beginning to realize that the Mexican immigrants (and Chinese locals in China) they've hated and despised for a lifetime are actually solid workers, and are prepared to do the same jobs they do for a quarter of the wage, and the corps are moving the industries abroad, they're crying and moaning. And crying and moaning. And hating the Poles and the Chinese for stealing their jobs. Come on.
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Unread 28 Nov 2011, 18:59   #36
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Re: 11/11/11

Such a shame there is no absolute truth in economics.
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Unread 28 Nov 2011, 20:03   #37
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Re: 11/11/11

It's a bit nihilistic a point of view.

That'd say there's no absolute truth in anything.
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Unread 28 Nov 2011, 21:48   #38
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Re: 11/11/11

absolute truth, what an overrated term - only religious people, or other fanatics dwelve in such.
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Unread 29 Nov 2011, 12:55   #39
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Re: 11/11/11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
No, I disagree with this view. I've tried to discuss it, but it seems we will wind up disagreeing - I could, as I said, link an infinite amount of academic discussion about it but it's a vanity since (technically understandably) we will both have our citations and arguments, and we will neither believe the others'. And whilst I'd find economic theory and academia more reliable a source, you will find youtube videos and blogs more so - it's something that cannot truly be contested either way.
Wouldn't it be best to find out the truth then to continue to be deceived? someone has to be wrong, either the federal reserve prints money out as debt with interest or it doesn't. (We already know that the Federal reserve has a monopoly on the US $)
Yet the Federal reserve hasn't been fully audited (which would settle this beyond doubt) and it isn't for the lack of trying I.E. Ron Paul's HR 1207.

however go back and study history.
You have to ask Why Old hickory/Andrew Jackson was the only US president to pay off america's national debt?
I love this quote... "You are a den of vipers and thieves. I have determined to rout you out and, by the Eternal, I will rout you out!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
No. I'll assume it's another internet conspiracy theory thing. Someone was near-assassinated or assassinated? Western politicians are so uncivilized with their paramilitary intelligence stunts.
Just follow the quotes of dead men and newspaper prints of yesteryear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
I mentioned credit agencies yes. But in the same fashion that I do not consider democracy being inherently evil because there is a widespread corruption in say, Russian system (despite it being a "democracy"), I do not believe the monetary system is a failure because it attracts corruption. More so, I believe a lot of problems could be resolved simply by combating this corruption. I retain my original statement: if there's an infected sore in your hand, it's better to treat it rather than chopping the entire arm off.
It is Funny how democracy is pushed for in Iraqi and Afghanistan but not Libya. (this is going off the issue)

Back to the hand Analogy ... what happens when the hand has gangreen because it has been left so long untreated?
In the case of America public with the federal reserve and being fully audited... The doctor isn't able to fully examine the patient due to Hospital policy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
Iceland's regime's brave idiocy in terms of allowing the banking sector to expand through nonsense-leverage is also to be commended, and is one of the key factors that lead to their grief. Hindsight will find, in addition to the "bankers are cheaters" -stories of Iceland a posteriori, also infinite amounts of a priori stuff about how the Icelandic tigers are going to beat the world and how Icelandic banking system is something to worship. Here we go, for example.
Don't believe the hype was Grimsson's (icelandic President) take on the credit rating agencies.
Credit agencies cater to the large financial institutions.
Refering back to the example of the 1920's boom and 1929 crash and the repercussions of 1933.
You prop it up / overvalue it, you crash it and then you buy it up for a fraction of the cost. (Yes that old chestnut)
that was no different to to iceland privatising the banks circa 2003, got a whole load of foreign investment, then a designed crash of the economy 2008 and now the attempt to buy iceland at the fraction of the cost... the difference is that the Icelandic people aren't allowing this without resistance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
Ironic, isn't it? Give or take a year or two, and the same people end up hating what they used to love and worship. Commendable, perhaps. Ignorant, arrogant, and foolish, definitely.
Depends on whether the IMF / Eurozone can Ensnare Iceland in an unpayable loan (to pay the debt of the collasped private banks) or not and it isn't through the lack of trying as testament to the Icelandic public referendums.
Refer to Why Iceland Should Be in the News, But Is Not'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
Here's what I think about ponzi schemes: they're only possible when a) the population is too uneducated and gullible and/or b) the supervision shares the population's problems. Again, I emphasize: an incorruptible system does not exist. Corruption causes systemic problems, and is a great cause of such, and should be fought at all costs. However, a system isn't inherently flawed simply because corruption happens in it. If this would be the case, we could happily shoot down all systems. I've seen many attempts to put communism or socialism or whatever you want to call it, into practise, and all of them have been equally if not more corrupt than democracies and monetary systems at large.
a) Why isn't basic monetary theory taught at schools? since everyone will have to use money
b) Joseph kennedys role in the SEC I.E. the fox guarding the hen house. (famous analogy just use a search engine)
He beats the system and then gets the Role of protector.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
I can remember some vague idea from one of your videos where the government would only issue some happiness-coupon related currency backed up in gold or something, for purposeful projects. Hello? Are we here? We're expecting the same government that gets turbo-lobbied by Wall Street and other folks to be able to pull that off without being ****dumb at it? Seriously? Yes sure.
It certainly wasn't Bill Still's the money masters otherwise you would know about Lincoln's Greenbacks.
I checked to see if it was Paul Grignon's Money as debt I got a transcript
of it and pressed ctrl and f and put in happiness and then coupon with ZERO results.

Why do you think the Pressitutes are ignoring / attacking the Likes of Ron Paul who are calling out for a full audit of the fed and the money trail of the loans made to wall street ... Only possible through no full audits/accountability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
Yes. Corruption is a problem with that too, I'm well aware of say a certain Hank Paulson Jr. It's not exactly news.
It's more than just him alone I haven't finished looking into it but 1 possibility at this point is that Goldman Sachs want to be that 1 world bank that the vatican is calling out for http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...45887020111024

I am open to other explanations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
Yes, it most likely is a question of when: I predict the people to get buttraped the hardest in the first wave will be those who took a mortgage, and believed that a) the interest rates will never rise due to financial situation so they can handle interest payments no matter what, and/or b) they will never get unemployed or sacked because they are simply so good*, and/or c) should one or two of the previous happen, they can always sell their house on profit because they got it so cheap and face it, housing prices must always go up. I mean, stupidity IS expensive isn't it. Nobody's forcing you to make these choices: all the education on it is freely available on the internet, there is tons of economic research in places like econpapers and syndicate, in addition to the youtube videos (the good, the bad, and the conspiracy ones).

If you really don't get it, then you can mostly blame yourself.
I am saying that the above paragraph just doesn't cut it alone for a satisfactory answer.
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Unread 29 Nov 2011, 15:37   #40
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Re: 11/11/11

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Such a shame there is no absolute truth in economics.
Nothing is true, everything is permitted!
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Unread 29 Nov 2011, 16:46   #41
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Re: 11/11/11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
Don't believe the hype was Grimsson's (icelandic President) take on the credit rating agencies.
Credit agencies cater to the large financial institutions.
Refering back to the example of the 1920's boom and 1929 crash and the repercussions of 1933.
You prop it up / overvalue it, you crash it and then you buy it up for a fraction of the cost. (Yes that old chestnut)
that was no different to to iceland privatising the banks circa 2003, got a whole load of foreign investment, then a designed crash of the economy 2008 and now the attempt to buy iceland at the fraction of the cost... the difference is that the Icelandic people aren't allowing this without resistance.
My only question regarding to the Iceland's situation is as follows: if the Icelandic people, a democratic nation, so fiercely oppose the mentioned banking sector's thievery, why did they allow the Nordic Tigers event to happen in the first place - and why were they obviously happy when things were going "well"?

Quote:
a) Why isn't basic monetary theory taught at schools? since everyone will have to use money
This is one of the few things I agree on but I cannot speak about nations other than Finland since my familiarity with educational systems abroad is very narrow (really, it's next to none). For me, they taught it there under the subject "history and societal science": the problem was that most people chose to ignore it and not to care. Teaching it to people who show no attention whatsoever to it is the same as teaching pigs to sing: it annoys the pig and wastes the teacher's time.

Perhaps now that times aren't "economically as good" as back when I was filling my obligation to get educated, people would show more attention to such matters.

What comes to whatever statement Vatican may have made specifically about Goldman Sachs: I am genuinely baffled they've chosen not to mention Morgan Chase. Perhaps a full audit of the Catholic Church might reveal financial affiliation to Goldman Sachs? (yes, this was intentional)
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Unread 29 Nov 2011, 16:59   #42
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Re: 11/11/11

Also, I have a question you might be able to answer: I don't know much about Ron Paul, but I can remember him being an Austrian School fan. Was it so? Doesn't that put him in the same bin with say, Alan Greenspan? I for one do believe that a public sector can be healthy even if large (Sweden I suppose is the current primer for success on this field, even though someone'd argue they're simply eurozone-freeriders).
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Unread 8 Jan 2012, 09:55   #43
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Re: 11/11/11

First thing to say is sorry for late reply

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
My only question regarding to the Iceland's situation is as follows: if the Icelandic people, a democratic nation, so fiercely oppose the mentioned banking sector's thievery, why did they allow the Nordic Tigers event to happen in the first place - and why were they obviously happy when things were going "well"?
It is just human nature to take it for granted when things go well and complain when things don't go well.

Another possible angle for some is that you don't get angry until you realised that you have been robbed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
This is one of the few things I agree on but I cannot speak about nations other than Finland since my familiarity with educational systems abroad is very narrow (really, it's next to none). For me, they taught it there under the subject "history and societal science": the problem was that most people chose to ignore it and not to care. Teaching it to people who show no attention whatsoever to it is the same as teaching pigs to sing: it annoys the pig and wastes the teacher's time.

Perhaps now that times aren't "economically as good" as back when I was filling my obligation to get educated, people would show more attention to such matters.

What comes to whatever statement Vatican may have made specifically about Goldman Sachs: I am genuinely baffled they've chosen not to mention Morgan Chase. Perhaps a full audit of the Catholic Church might reveal financial affiliation to Goldman Sachs? (yes, this was intentional)
That is one thing I do like about the forums is the exchange of ideas/topics/interests to things you wouldn't normally come across or have the same angle of thought.

I was still forced to learn German at school when I had no interest in learning it so I do take your point there with the pig and teacher analogy.

I would certainly welcome a full audit of entities that have something to hide whether it be the Fed or the Vatican.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
Also, I have a question you might be able to answer: I don't know much about Ron Paul, but I can remember him being an Austrian School fan. Was it so? Doesn't that put him in the same bin with say, Alan Greenspan? I for one do believe that a public sector can be healthy even if large (Sweden I suppose is the current primer for success on this field, even though someone'd argue they're simply eurozone-freeriders).
I was not familar with the Austrian school of thought in economics and had to do some background reading. (Again thanks keiz for introducing a new concept to me)
It comes back to the business cycle (of boom and bust through unsustainable credit) from what I can gather from Ron Paul he is saying that big government in the USA or more precise that the level of the USA expenditure is unstainable without there being a Collaspe which would lead to economic martial law and a result of this the american government (the Federal) is growing for the purpose of seizing control of the USA.
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Unread 14 Jan 2012, 19:56   #44
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Re: 11/11/11

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It is just human nature to take it for granted when things go well and complain when things don't go well.
I'd put my five cents on this angle.
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Unread 15 Jan 2012, 20:41   #45
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Re: 11/11/11

It`s also human nature to do nothing when things don`t go well.
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