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Unread 14 Dec 2006, 23:27   #101
furball
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
Im sure they will be adequately nerfed in the betas if the testers are in the least bit competant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Furyous
making their ships weak and expensive should do the trick
But then Joe Noob who goes Zik is seriously going to struggle, since he'll probably be in a weaker galaxy in his cluster and therefore outside the dominating cluster alliance. Moreover, he won't find attacking particularly easy because he'll have crap ships and is unlikely to be in a decent alliance organising regular attacks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squishy
I wouldnt like to be in a zik heavy alliance. If i was an HC i woudnt seriously think about allowing it tbh.

With ziks you need much better coverage of incoming to deter the attacker. Alliances wouldnt be able to cover their members effectivly with mostly ziks. Especially on nights of heavy incoming.

Alliances will have to try and balance ziks for value with other races to keep them alive.
Why bother defending then? Just go for an all-Xan/Zik alliance and get your members fleet-catching your attackers each morning. Would you want to attack that alliance if you knew you were guaranteed 30 fleetcatches on your ass the next morning? I think not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squishy
EDIT: Alliances will need to depend on their fleets a lot more to be competative. They will no longer have the fall back of big XP if they lose a war. The top alliance will be easly knocked from the top giving a much betetr dynamic in the top5
If the round's only going to be 7 weeks long, the first one or two wars will decide everything. The value advantage is decided early on in the round - it's just been masked by XP-affected score since r10.

Alliances will therefore just fence-sit for as long as possible. Boring or what?




Quote:
Originally Posted by NitinA
You guys can discuss this all you want, but as you have probably noticed there's been no response from Chef or Appoco or anyone from the development on this thread about the various issues people have with the changes. It'd be nice to get a response from them, rather than have 100 peopld dicuss it amongst ourselves while having no impact at all upon where the game is going.
I suspect that they've recoiled in shock that the forums haven't bathed them in adulation at their wonderful changes, and instead are poking holes in almost every one.
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Unread 14 Dec 2006, 23:32   #102
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Re: Round 20 Changes

I was oversimplyfying alliance play because i allways post long, and I aint gonna add 20 lines to my silly long posts to analyse the complete setup of an alliance. I undestand and appreciate the hard work and effort put in by 'better' ppl than me, they ppl involved with running alliances are a credit to the game.

I intended you to read that quote you used in conjuction with my 'little man might have to think for himself' line and summize that atm, the HC/BC/DC team make all the decisions for the alliance, and the alliance members follow. If the alliance members disagree they planet nap, or fencesit, or shipjump.

With the current bout of changes posted by chef, the common man is gonna have to get his ass into gear and organise his own house a lot more if the common man intends to keep up value wise.
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Unread 14 Dec 2006, 23:42   #103
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
Only shit alliances will quit.

Have alliances lost all sense of creativity or ability to respond or adapt to changing circumstances? Personally, I can think of some very interesting new possibilities
Oh no doubt. It's not passed my attention either. But I think in the end, activity will beat those who have 'adapted' hands down. It's also going to mean a higher percentage of zikonians for obvious reasons and zikonians being the prevalent race is pretty boring, I think because there will be fewer non zikonian ships to steal

The problem that I think alliances face is that there are alliances around them that they know are more active, and once you are behind, value is something very difficult to claw back without either an exceptional effort in terms of activity or a capitulation of the enemy. The effect on these alliances is part-game mechanics, part psychological, but I don't think the game should make a business of discouraging alliances of people who enjoy playing together but want to do so while feeling that they at least, have a fighting chance of getting somewhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkHeart
back in the day, everything was value based
back in the day, some cluster alliances rocked the pants off this game. (hello concordium?)
back in the day this game rocked
The old game rocked because:

1) There were lots of players, the universe was vast.
2) The standard of play in general was far better than it is now, because there were more players. I mean the achievement of every exilition win put together wouldn't even begin to come close to xanadu's win in round 4, for example.
3) As a result, Planetarion was a game worth playing.

It was not a game worth playing because of the game itself. Old planetarion demanded a lot of activity, and playing that compared to PaX is like wading through treacle. Players are not as dedicated, don't want to be as dedicated and with pre launch, certainly don't have to be.

I respect the idea of the game being harsh and demanding and trying to cater for one type of player instead of everyone, I think that catering for the hardcore alliance player who will be massively active at any cost is catering for the wrong type of player, as the game just isn't like that any more.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 00:23   #104
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Re: Round 20 Changes

i agree almost 100% lokken

the universe does need to be vast for this game to be fun. With a small universe, its just number crunching for xp whores...number crunching for ziks stealing etc.

The underlying issue is how to make the universe vast again

The universe was vast for a lot of reasons, maybe some were

you didnt have to pay to pay
there were a lot multis

those two listed above are out of the planetarion communities hands. Its a commercial game now and we can't change that

what i see in chefs announced changes is that if you go beyond the two reasons for a vast universe as stated above, and focus on what else was fun in the game back in the day.... I for one perceive the announced changes to be getting back to the other things that were fun in the game

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Military Status

Fleet 2 Return Droconis Combine(24:7:24) [ETA 2 hours]



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Incoming hostile fleet (78486 units) from Hideout ( 11:18:21) ETA 2 hours.
Incoming friendly fleet (73500 units) from Doraith ( 10:6:20) ETA 8 hours.
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Incoming friendly fleet (19735 units) from inphinity void ( 24:3:16) ETA 6 hours.
Incoming friendly fleet (0 units) from World of Q3F ( 27:14:25) ETA 7 hours.
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Incoming friendly fleet (27479 units) from = Garden of Eden = ( 31:25:19) ETA 6 hours.
Incoming friendly fleet (81601 units) from Makèvelli Cortext ( 34:10:14) ETA 9 hours.
Incoming hostile fleet (59557 units) from Aiel Waste ( 36:18:24) ETA 6 hours.
Incoming friendly fleet (21997 units) from vector ( 46:4:5) ETA 6 hours.
Incoming friendly fleet (30715 units) from Rescue ( 55:14:14) ETA 6 hours.
Incoming friendly fleet (0 units) from Rescue ( 55:14:14) ETA 5 hours.
Incoming friendly fleet (220827 units) from Muppet's Paradise ( 56:18:14) ETA 8 hours.
Incoming friendly fleet (40213 units) from Dark Force ( 57:6:11) ETA 7 hours.
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Incoming friendly fleet (28061 units) from D4wn ( 57:25:18) ETA 7 hours.
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Incoming friendly fleet (73643 units) from GmbH ( 57:16:22) ETA 7 hours.
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Incoming friendly fleet (85040 units) from BoomLand ( 74:11:11) ETA 8 hours.
Incoming friendly fleet (88147 units) from NewAge ( 76:2:5) ETA 9 hours.
Incoming hostile fleet (33959 units) from Heino ( 104:20:22) ETA 6 hours.
Incoming hostile fleet (13481 units) from Mattysburg ( 106:16:12) ETA 6 hours.
Incoming hostile fleet (53869 units) from planet multiwamma ( 95:16:6) ETA 7 hours.
Incoming hostile fleet (29410 units) from planet crappants ( 114:11:13) ETA 6 hours.
Incoming hostile fleet (38000 units) from Cthulhu Dawn ( 116:21:13) ETA 6 hours.
Incoming friendly fleet (20075 units) from Vercingetorix ( 107:5:12) ETA 10 hours.
Incoming hostile fleet (33845 units) from Great-Traxx ( 121:21:20) ETA 7 hours.
Incoming friendly fleet (49855 units) from Spineria ( 125:12:10) ETA 7 hours.
Incoming friendly fleet (43880 units) from Majoriuos ( 136:7:4) ETA 7 hours.
Incoming friendly fleet (49005 units) from Kalinium ( 7:24:6) ETA 6 hours.
Incoming friendly fleet (36400 units) from venusofmars ( 119:11:4) ETA 6 hours.
Incoming friendly fleet (9400 units) from venusofmars ( 119:11:4) ETA 7 hours.
Incoming hostile fleet (1618 units) from Walkers inn ( 95:16:13) ETA 5 hours.
Incoming hostile fleet (0 units) from Walkers inn ( 95:16:13) ETA 5 hours.
Incoming friendly fleet (26915 units) from AcidNetX ( 156:11:16) ETA 8 hours.
Incoming friendly fleet (16011 units) from polomint ( 156:2:20) ETA 6 hours.
Incoming friendly fleet (2500 units) from polomint ( 156:2:20) ETA 7 hours.
Incoming friendly fleet (58394 units) from elsausb ( 59:12:12) ETA 7 hours.
Incoming friendly fleet (11547 units) from elsausb ( 59:12:12) ETA 8 hours.
Incoming friendly fleet (79428 units) from Sark Haven ( 10:6:12) ETA 10 hours.
Incoming hostile fleet (78877 units) from Cool Runnings ( 158:4:11) ETA 6 hours.
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Incoming hostile fleet (50536 units) from The-Pants-Store ( 152:7:24) ETA 1 hour.
Incoming hostile fleet (46060 units) from Colossal ( 116:1:10) ETA 5 hours.
Incoming hostile fleet (13017 units) from ExusSpace ( 18:17:12) ETA 6 hours.
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Incoming hostile fleet (9537 units) from Hydos ( 158:4:1) ETA 7 hours.
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Incoming friendly fleet (25 units) from larry cave ( 187:19:21) ETA 6 hours.
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Incoming friendly fleet (24056 units) from fasomi ( 128:1:5) ETA 7 hours.
Incoming friendly fleet (96056 units) from Newbie World ( 98:20:22) ETA 8 hours.
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Incoming hostile fleet (1472 units) from Torch ( 75:2:21) ETA 8 hours.
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Incoming friendly fleet (41129 units) from Olfsplace ( 69:19:23) ETA 9 hours.
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Incoming hostile fleet (47342 units) from FUT ( 140:18:21) ETA 7 hours.
Incoming friendly fleet (208737 units) from The Over World ( 232:7:19) ETA 9 hours.
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Incoming friendly fleet (59023 units) from impia in deum dicta ( 51:22:19) ETA 9 hours.
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Incoming friendly fleet (111 units) from Thë Undër Wörld ( 156:18:11) ETA 9 hours.
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Incoming hostile fleet (73030 units) from Sharukas ( 157:15:7) ETA 7 hours.

Ships (33912 units total)

Warfrigate 10507 Warcruiser 946
Battleship 1000 Spider 9731
Ghost 10078 Cargoship 976
Astropod 674

PDS (420 units total)

Wave Jammer 420

Asteroids (1062 total)

Metal 476 Crystal 334
Eonium 39 Unknown 213


i was never the biggest planet back then. i was never in the bigget alliance back then /me waves at tsunami. most of those were probably multis

But damn having ppl wiht a lot of ships was a lot more fun than watching xp whores ruin the game
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 00:30   #105
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkHeart
id like to imagine this scenario

back in the day, everything was value based
back in the day, some cluster alliances rocked the pants off this game. (hello concordium?)
back in the day this game rocked

I missed a lot of PA's post pay to play... silly little id like to poke you in the eye xp whore era.....history, but having played round 19, my first in 8 rounds.... i could see little glimmers of the game i loved rounds 1 through to 7.... and these changes I (would like to imagine) are a big step towards getting over the mistake of the post pay to play lets encourage ppl to have tiny little fleets structure.

Seriously looking forward to round 20

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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 00:34   #106
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furyous
Listen to this man. He understands what has been good about planetarion.
werd

PATEAM - the future of PA does not lie in the silly little xp hunting fleets, the future uf PA relies on going old school, give us something to fight over, keep up these changes
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 00:36   #107
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
It might not be a big deal to you, but it is to those alliances. Your description of them as inactive is ridiculous - you seem to be suggesting that any alliance that doesn't play as hardcore as 1up/eXil did is inactive. Retard.

Thinking back to VGN's history when I was part of them, our ranking went 6th, 13th, 7th, 7th, 4th. Those ranks were important because they didn't exist in isolation - it was our rank in comparison to similar alliances (Subh, TGV) that mattered the most.


To pretend that this was insignificant would be plain silly.
I beg your pardon?

For someone who is supposed to have some responsibility on these forums, calling another forum member a retard is simply unacceptable.

And I do apologise for my short mindedness, but the primary function of a score system (in my ever so humble and clearly misguided opinion) is to clarify the winner (be that alliance, planet or galaxy). The way such a system affects other (lower) rankings is, and should be, secondary. To endorse a score system that 'fairly' decides 7th and 8th place but misrepresents or misplaces 1st and 2nd is what I consider retarded.
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Last edited by Furyous; 15 Dec 2006 at 00:46.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 01:13   #108
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furyous
I beg your pardon?

For someone who is supposed to have some responsibility on these forums, calling another forum member a retard is simply unacceptable.
I'm sorry, but the position that you've taken on this issue meant that I really couldn't think of any other word to describe it/you

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furyous
And I do apologise for my short mindedness, but the primary function of a score system (in my ever so humble and clearly misguided opinion) is to clarify the winner (be that alliance, planet or galaxy). The way such a system affects other (lower) rankings is, and should be, secondary.
No, the primary function of a ranking system is to show what rank each planet/galaxy/alliance is. Attributing importance to who is #1 is a personal choice - one that most of us share, I'll grant you. Nevertheless, #10 has also been kinda important recently - the "top 10" in the alliance rankings has been regularly referred to in various editions of the Logbook.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Furyous
To endorse a score system that 'fairly' decides 7th and 8th place but misrepresents or misplaces 1st and 2nd is what I consider retarded.
Yet that wasn't what I said. I'm not sure I even endorsed any particular score system in the post you quote, although I do favour alliance rankings by score for most of the reasons given by other posters before me.

Your mistake is believing that the very top places are being misrepresented, which they are not. The alliance score rankings do not exist to represent the military strength of each alliance, which an alliance value ranking might show.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 01:21   #109
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Re: Round 20 Changes

I shall refrain myself from giving my personal opinion about Furyous, like anyone would care about this anyway.

I do like some of the changes, for example ranking alliances by value. I do oppose against the alliancelimit, make that 50 and no adding 10 later. Just 50 and kick someone before you can accept someone. This would increase the odds of wining for the smaller alliances going for value.

I also like the new cluster eta's, but I also see a potential threat there, but also some potentials, napping between alliances and share cluster channels so you could actually help eachother. This would be a big increase in organisation, but could be very rewarding.

These chaces as are stated now would be very beneficiary for ziks, valuewise and fleetcatches in cluster. So I never thought I would say this, but maybe it would be a nice move to go back to a single race with specalisation options (but NO stealing).

There are also some things I am missing from the announcement:
1st: Will there be a fixed galaxy size (preferably 10 imho).
2nd: They want to make PA more ability then activity, how are they planning to achieve that (value imho is mostly activity aswell).

So it would be nice if someone from PA-team will read this thread and answer some of the questions (including mine ) and give feedback to the suggestions.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 01:26   #110
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Thanks for a proper reply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
No, the primary function of a ranking system is to show what rank each planet/galaxy/alliance is. Attributing importance to who is #1 is a personal choice - one that most of us share, I'll grant you. Nevertheless, #10 has also been kinda important recently - the "top 10" in the alliance rankings has been regularly referred to in various editions of the Logbook.
The logbook is written by one person (not the same person every round ofc). But the logbook is not part of the game, it is simply the generous offering of another forum member, who is no more qualified than any of us to decide what people consider newsworthy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Yet that wasn't what I said. I'm not sure I even endorsed any particular score system in the post you quote, although I do favour alliance rankings by score for most of the reasons given by other posters before me.
OK so you favor that. Fair enough. I have no problem with your preference. To call someone who thinks differently a retard is shortminded in the extreme.

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Your mistake is believing that the very top places are being misrepresented, which they are not. The alliance score rankings do not exist to represent the military strength of each alliance, which an alliance value ranking might show.
So we get to a question that has plagued the game since PAX began:

What are the rankings supposed to mean? What should we strive for in this game? On what grounds should someone (or some alliance) be officially donned the best?

At the moment I see alliance score as completely arbitrary and meaningless. But I must adhere to it as by definition that is what the game is about. Whereas a value based ranking actually has some kind of meaning. At least it represents something (military power).

XP, as I think most will agree, is not a measure of experience, and it is not a measure of achievement. An alliance rank (or indeed any rank) based on XP and value combined, at least to me, has no real substance or justification. I'm not saying that it doesn't give a realistic ranking in terms of achievement (it might), but it means nothing. You really have to give rank some kind of meaning or substance, otherwise it's pointless, IMRO.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 01:30   #111
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clogg
I shall refrain myself from giving my personal opinion about Furyous, like anyone would care about this anyway.
You're still on your high horse because I attacked you three times in a week back at the end of round 17, when I had about 4 viable targets. Get over it.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 01:50   #112
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Whoohoo alliance rankings by value - Close your account Benneh you dont have a chance!
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 01:57   #113
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furyous
You're still on your high horse because I attacked you three times in a week back at the end of round 17, when I had about 4 viable targets. Get over it.

LOL, still upset by that galhit I suppose then, but actually I was refering to furballs post. I honestly agree with you that he shouldn't have put it the way he did.

Also fyi, I begin every round with a clean slate, you must have really pissed my off to make me attack you or slander you ingame or on the forums. You're not even close to that, so don't flatter yourself.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 02:00   #114
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furyous
The logbook is written by one person (not the same person every round ofc). But the logbook is not part of the game, it is simply the generous offering of another forum member, who is no more qualified than any of us to decide what people consider newsworthy.
You seem to have missed the actual point that I made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
No, the primary function of a ranking system is to show what rank each planet/galaxy/alliance is. Attributing importance to who is #1 is a personal choice - one that most of us share, I'll grant you. Nevertheless, #10 has also been kinda important recently - the "top 10" in the alliance rankings has been regularly referred to in various editions of the Logbook.
The Logbook is just an example of the importance to many alliances of finishing in the top 10, as opposed to finishing number one. Do you intend to rebut my point that the ranking system's primary function is not to show who finishes #1?


Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
OK so you favor that. Fair enough. I have no problem with your preference. To call someone who thinks differently a retard is shortminded in the extreme.
Again, I'm not sure you've been reading my posts through before replying. You said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furyous
And what's all this whinging about not giving inactive allies a fair chance. Do they play to win? Have they ever had a realistic possibility of winning? History says not. Why give a shit about the alliance ranking? Unless you think you might be 11th instead of 7th? Big deal.
Still standing by this part of your earlier post? I find it incredibly patronising and close-minded, although sadly not that uncommon an attitude among players who only play in the alliances aiming for the #1 spot.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Furyous
So we get to a question that has plagued the game since PAX began:

What are the rankings supposed to mean? What should we strive for in this game? On what grounds should someone (or some alliance) be officially donned the best?
1) The rankings mean nothing on their own - they simply show what score each alliance has. We as players attach our own meanings to them.

2) We should strive for fun, by which ever means provides the most fun.

3) It's up to the community to decide who is the best. In recent rounds the community has decided to rely on the rankings to do so, but exceptions to this include Elysium's #1 rank in Round 10, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furyous
At the moment I see alliance score as completely arbitrary and meaningless. But I must adhere to it as by definition that is what the game is about. Whereas a value based ranking actually has some kind of meaning. At least it represents something (military power).
By seeing alliance score as arbitrary and meaningless, you must logically see planet score as arbitrary and meaningless - since alliance score is just the total of multiple planet scores. Since planet score is just value + XP, that handily leads us onto the XP question.

And I'll repeat again: PA is not, by definition, about finishing as highly as possible in the alliance rankings. Read my earlier replies and you'll see why.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furyous
XP, as I think most will agree, is not a measure of experience, and it is not a measure of achievement. An alliance rank (or indeed any rank) based on XP and value combined, at least to me, has no real substance or justification. I'm not saying that it doesn't give a realistic ranking in terms of achievement (it might), but it means nothing. You really have to give rank some kind of meaning or substance, otherwise it's pointless, IMRO.
I'm not sure most will agree with you on what XP represents, but I suppose you can ask around.

Alliance ranks represent the totals of alliances' planets' scores. Nothing more. If you want to see how powerful an alliance is, show its total value - but you don't need to rank alliances by it.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 02:05   #115
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Re: Round 20 Changes

I like the changes in a way, but people fail to realize that with clusters being -2 and -1, all you are doing is changing clusters into huge gals. Now what happens if you end up in an inactive cluster? Your alliance can't really help in on incluster fleet catches etc. This has made alliances not even needed.

Also, if you are going to do alliances by value, then you need to do everything by value.
Its simpple minded, but all an alliance had to do to win was not tag up and all go for score. Sure Angels for example won top ally, but tof had 50 planets in the top 100, so who really won.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 02:07   #116
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-
Whoohoo alliance rankings by value - Close your account Benneh you dont have a chance!

It effects me how now?
Oh noes, my alliance might not get 17th again!!!

BUGGER...

BTW, Fi/co incluster farm xp for about a week, exile change clusters. HALLOO XP.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 02:09   #117
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocklobster[Dok]
the only thing I dont like is that my BP of 5 was sorted
Same and i hope that we can play this round together as some will be leaving for good after this round.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 02:16   #118
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
The point is that there is no near zero incentive for less active alliances to play if they know they've lost from the off. And determining by value is a pretty sure fire way of putting them off, I think.
There is actually negative incentive as with no xp bashing will increase for sure. These players will be the ones we need to keep the game in the future and some will leave because the bigger and better players will just bash their limit.

This is a very bad thing for the game as a whole
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 02:26   #119
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Do you intend to rebut my point that the ranking system's primary function is not to show who finishes #1?
No I do not. That's your take on what a ranking system should do. It is not mine. There isn't much more to discuss. Simply put, if a ranking system fails to identify the rightful victor, I think whatever else it does is irrelevant. What I do think is that we are interpreting primary differently: By primary function I mean the first criteria it must fulfil. By primary you mean the most important function generally. As such, we may not disagree so much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Still standing by this part of your earlier post? I find it incredibly patronising and close-minded, although sadly not that uncommon an attitude among players who only play in the alliances aiming for the #1 spot.
Afraid I do. Apologies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
2) We should strive for fun, by which ever means provides the most fun.
Couldn't agree more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
3) It's up to the community to decide who is the best. In recent rounds the community has decided to rely on the rankings to do so, but exceptions to this include Elysium's #1 rank in Round 10, etc.
Try and say 1up actually won round 16, and you'd probably be right, but try making such a statement publically, and you'll get flamed with "Well the game says different and if you can't understand that then you're a retard". As much as we'd like to think the community 'decides' (if that's even possible), it's simply not true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
By seeing alliance score as arbitrary and meaningless, you must logically see planet score as arbitrary and meaningless
It is meaningless. If I had to assess someone who I didn't know, I would look at their value first, their roids second, and score last.

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Alliance ranks represent the totals of alliances' planets' scores. Nothing more. If you want to see how powerful an alliance is, show its total value - but you don't need to rank alliances by it.
The problem is that they don't. Not with these stupid alliance score equations. I think you'll find that if the alliance value were published AS well as score, then the community would be more able to decide which is most significant. As it stands, only one measure is provided to us. If I had to choose one of the two, I'd choose value. If it was possible, I'd like to see both.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 02:38   #120
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furyous
What I do think is that we are interpreting primary differently: By primary function I mean the first criteria it must fulfil. By primary you mean the most important function generally. As such, we may not disagree so much.
Spot on. If you're going to compare different ranking systems, the overall outcomes they produce must be pretty important.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Furyous
Try and say 1up actually won round 16, and you'd probably be right, but try making such a statement publically, and you'll get flamed with "Well the game says different and if you can't understand that then you're a retard". As much as we'd like to think the community 'decides' (if that's even possible), it's simply not true.
In a military sense, 1up did win Round 16. However, both 1up and Ascendancy had an aim (however well-defined) of finishing top of the alliance score rankings. Ascendancy fulfilled theirs, 1up did not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Furyous
The problem is that they don't. Not with these stupid alliance score equations. I think you'll find that if the alliance value were published AS well as score, then the community would be more able to decide which is most significant. As it stands, only one measure is provided to us. If I had to choose one of the two, I'd choose value. If it was possible, I'd like to see both.
Would you be open to alliances continuing to be ranked by score in-game, but for the alliances' values to be shown as well? I think that might be a worthwhile compromise, all things considered.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 02:41   #121
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Re: Round 20 Changes

I really wouldn't mind which order it is put in, but I think showing both would be a significant improvement. Also a recognition of both in terms of free credits would give it some kind of official significance. Bear in mind that usually one alliance would win on both counts, and its victory would rightly be better recognised when judged on both criteria.

Edit: And total value, if not score as well, must be a simple total of members value. Regardless of whether they joined after leaving another alliance etc.

If you leave the score calculation as is, you might even get a funny situation where an alliance has more value than score
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 02:52   #122
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furyous
I really wouldn't mind which order it is put in, but I think showing both would be a significant improvement. Also a recognition of both in terms of free credits would give it some kind of official significance.
Fine by me, to be honest. Although I'd probably only give away a free credit to the #1 value player, as opposed to #1-#3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furyous
Edit: And total value, if not score as well, should be a simple total of members value. Regardless of whether they joined after leaving another alliance etc.

If you leave the score calculation as is, you might even get a funny situation where an alliance has more value than score
Let's hope so. Perhaps a 'stupid' result where an alliance has more value than score is what PA Team would need to see before we go back to the old alliance score system.

And yes, obviously total value would need to be shown, otherwise it would be essentially worthless.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 02:57   #123
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Re: Round 20 Changes

A rather useful debate I think. Especially for a retard
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 03:01   #124
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furyous
A rather useful debate I think. Especially for a retard
Well, I'm still not comfortable with your views on alliances outside the top 5, but that's a discussion that I really can't be bothered to take much further. Nevertheless, there's obvious common ground and I'd like to thank PA Team for its complete lack of consultation - we couldn't have done it without you.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 03:07   #125
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furyous
Listen to this man. He understands what has been good about planetarion.
The fact is we are pay to play and you aren't going to get vast numbers required to make what was the turd of rounds purely based on value. Old planetarion was only vaguely fun if you were running an alliance and putting in insane hours to make that alliance even remotely successful, because it was actually quite crap to play, because putting your time into a planet is a pretty dull activity. The PaX game is far far superior to what we had before, simply because there are more ways to gain score than just 'value'.

I agree with you in the sense that alliance value needs to be published, as well as score or you might as well publish neither and make planetarion a guessing game again. I think it would at least, encourage alliances to be more proactive and actually attack other alliances before they get too far ahead. For me this is very much a no brainer.

However I don't see how measuring a galaxy and planet's success by one measure (score) and alliance by another (value) is even remotely constructive as you could be successful in one sense but totally useless in another, which doesn't seem remotely satisfying.

The point I make is that activity dictates value and value dictates who wins battles and usually who wins rounds. However, with XP and measuring by score, you give an alliance that might be less active but maybe more capable/tactically ept to gain on them using XP to compensate for the fact that a value lead is very difficult to break down except in the two situations I described above.

Value rewards activity, XP rewards a player`s ability to exploit an opponents value but without enough of the first, you'll never get enough score from the latter to catch those alliances with value because you won't be landing enough without crashing. In my opinion, if you can overhaul another alliance's score using the XP method, you deserve to win, no doubt about it, as the XP way is hard, except in a different sense.

This is the 'fighting chance' that less active alliances should have - they need not be as active necessarily, but to be successful, they'll have to have some value and play well with what they've got.

Value is dominant enough, we don't need to make it the be all and end all. It already is a large factor in deciding who wins rounds. Just to feed their egos even more, only one alliance bucked the value trend in every sense and that was Ascendancy.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 03:20   #126
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
I agree with you in the sense that alliance value needs to be published, as well as score or you might as well publish neither and make planetarion a guessing game again. I think it would at least, encourage alliances to be more proactive and actually attack other alliances before they get too far ahead. For me this is very much a no brainer.

However I don't see how measuring a galaxy and planet's success by one measure (score) and alliance by another (value) is even remotely constructive as you could be successful in one sense but totally useless in another, which doesn't seem remotely satisfying.
These two things aren't contradictory. Rank alliance by whatever you want, but please publish all the information (bar co-ords ofc)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
The point I make is that activity dictates value and value dictates who wins battles and usually who wins rounds. However, with XP and measuring by score, you give an alliance that might be less active but maybe more capable/tactically ept to gain on them using XP to compensate for the fact that a value lead is very difficult to break down except in the two situations I described above.
I disagree. In theory you're quite right. In practice, however, active alliances are usually the alliances who have already done very well. Their success has not been through activity, but through maintaining what has brought them success (which just happens to be activity when value is key). What I'm trying to say is that traditionally high value alliances and planets have been the most capable/tactically ept anyway. What XP allows for is those capable people to win and put in even less effort (a la Ascendancy which is/was mainly full of traditionally high value people who were formerly part of traditionally high value alliances who saw an opportunity to slack off and still win).

Members of alliances that do well from XP play aren't less active because that have to be, but because they can be.
Alliances with inactive members regardless of XP play aren't and won't be successful anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
Value is dominant enough, we don't need to make it the be all and end all. It already is a large factor in deciding who wins rounds.
As i said, it doesn't have to rank alliances. But publish it, then at least the community can have an accurate perspective when judging performance.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 03:32   #127
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furyous
These two things aren't contradictory. Rank alliance by whatever you want, but please publish all the information (bar co-ords ofc)
For me, I prefer score, but by all means publish it all.

Quote:
I disagree. In theory you're quite right. In practice, however, active alliances are usually the alliances who have already done very well. Their success has not been through activity, but through maintaining what has brought them success (which just happens to be activity when value is key). What I'm trying to say is that traditionally high value alliances and planets ate the most capable/tactically ept anyway. What XP allows for is those capable people to win and put in even less effort (a la Ascendancy which is/was mainly full of traditionally high value people who were formerly part of traditionally high value alliances who saw an opportunity to slack off and still win).
Okay, maybe I wasn't quite right. The classic situation is that the lead alliance can be outnumbered and hit. If the opposition do it with sufficient numbers, quality and consistency, they can overhaul using XP. I'm perhaps not thinking of being 'better' but giving enough of a sufficient level of play to actually be dangerous. There are several situations where even ND could have simply played competently and probably come a lot closer to winning, instead they played badly on both occasions where this kind of situation arose. The challenge for the alliance lower in value is to do it while holding it's value, as the highest value alliance is bound to turn up the heat on them.


Asc was ever a contender against an alliance under the current formula, you'ld bet your life they'd be in a whole different ballgame because they could actually be hit (unlike round 16) and they would be hit by people who you could bet would be definitely more active. If Ascendancy were good enough to beat an enemy like that, I think they'd deserve to win, simply because they would probably have to play at the top of their game against such a dominant alliance. They would be in no different a position to ND this round when they launched on exilition, except without all the fleet crashing and other glowing examples of how not to fight a war.

Quote:
As i said, it doesn't have to rank alliances. But publish it, then at least the community can have an accurate perspective when judging performance.
Don't disagree.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 09:56   #128
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Re: Round 20 Changes

I think at least PUBLISHING alliance value is a good point. It would make it clearer to see what danger an alliance is to your own self.

When small players are concerned:
when I started r4-5 I was as allianceless as can be. In one case, cluster alliances made my round good, in the other it totally bit me in the bum.

For new players a bite in the bum by cluster allies could be a turndown. I did have the balls (or boredom) to continue and started finding myself a "real" alliance in r7. I simply saw that (back then) it was impossible to play good without one.

Empathising with nubs (which ain't hard for me to do ofc) I can see why XP gave a new dimension to gameplay, making it possible to not be ranked 2000+ if you actually attack. Now, when such a player comes into an alliance, he is suddenly worth jack because his value is low.
In short words, it would be harder and less fun for newer players to get playing, have fun and get into an alliance (and MEAN something in the game).

Cluster allies were a good twist off the regular system, but I don't see how allowing them to come back and being effective will help new players to stay in the game.
This round I first experienced the XP system, and I have to say I was pleased, because I could make a top 200 rank. This was my motivation for continuing before I heard said changes.
I love alliance play and the social aspect that comes with it, but if a player like me (and there's a whole lot of those around) has to go for value, there's no more chance of personal pwnage, and the other way around is the same.
I don't want to be forced to choose whether to play for my ally or play for personal rank.

As far as buddy packs are concerned, I will once again incorporate the small player: with the buddy pack size of 5 any galaxy can have a good base, guiding small players to the works of the game. I have had a VERY social galaxy this round, and you need a base to provide that kind of fun to (new) players.

My emphasis is on small players, because 1: they are the majority and 2: getting more users is getting more small players. Small players are the present, past and future of every game and provide a healthy base for a game to be able to run. If only say the top 300-400 people would play, this game would die, as would any other.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 10:37   #129
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Do people genuinely not want to play a wargame then?
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 10:39   #130
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Do people genuinely not want to play a wargame then?
Do not confuse people who post in this thread with people.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 10:39   #131
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Do people genuinely not want to play a wargame then?
true, but they don't want to LOSE
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 11:16   #132
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Re: Round 20 Changes

I'm afraid somebody has to lose.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 11:22   #133
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrackan
Cluster allies were a good twist off the regular system, but I don't see how allowing them to come back and being effective will help new players to stay in the game.
This round I first experienced the XP system, and I have to say I was pleased, because I could make a top 200 rank. This was my motivation for continuing before I heard said changes.
I love alliance play and the social aspect that comes with it, but if a player like me (and there's a whole lot of those around) has to go for value, there's no more chance of personal pwnage, and the other way around is the same.
I don't want to be forced to choose whether to play for my ally or play for personal rank.
1) I don't think you've thought cluster alliances through. Especially in the light of exiling. Furthermore, if a cluster ally goes for value, then they won't be able to hit you if you play for XP anyway. But you could hit them.

2) XP is still there. Play for it if you want. I'm sure a lot of alliances will be happy with XP players. Not the top ones (by definition) of course.

3) Are you seriously telling me that you care about whether your personal rank is 540 or 315? If you want to be in an alliance for the social aspect, and you're shit at playing for value, then dropping 200 ranks when it doesn't matter anyway represents no limitation of choice. If you arent top 50 then your goal really should be entirely to do with your alliance, and except round 16, if you are top 50 there's 95% chance you've played value anyway.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 11:51   #134
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furyous
...
3) Are you seriously telling me that you care about whether your personal rank is 540 or 315? If you want to be in an alliance for the social aspect, and you're shit at playing for value, then dropping 200 ranks when it doesn't matter anyway represents no limitation of choice. If you arent top 50 then your goal really should be entirely to do with your alliance, and except round 16, if you are top 50 there's 95% chance you've played value anyway.
As for your point 1 and 2, I can do nothing much but agree what you say is the truth, and add to that the alliance I am playing will probably not be 100% happy with XP players, even though I doubt we'll get as much of a chance at winning like we had this round.

Well, it takes a load of different players to keep this game going I guess...
Of course, I am not a top player, simply because I care a lot about other things in life as well (not to give the "you all have no lives!" argument, really).

I feel absolutely fine getting t200 after being away for 9 rounds, makes me feel I still can play a bit. I should be capable of making t100, maybe t50 if that's what it takes for people to take my opinion into account. I think the Average Player is being underestimated and put to silence in your arguments, while it is the largest playing group, and also the group that keeps this game alive.

Also, I play both for ranking and alliance, which I think is a great social aspect of the game, as I said. That doesn't mean I ONLY play for that social aspect, it just means I would hate to play without it.

Personally, given the fact that, as you said, 95% of the times value ends on top anyway, I think it is unnecessary to shift the alliance emphasis to it, as well as confusing and disturbing (as this thread so clearly demonstrates) to a lot of players. (I'd love to see value in the lists though!)

Last thing, theres XP whores and Value players, but also the Average player, who gets medium value and adds XP to make some good score. Please do take this group of players into consideration and take them seriously.

I hope the PA team will soon release some official comments on the planned changes. As for what I want not to change, I think I made it very clear and need not repeat.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 12:05   #135
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Do people genuinely not want to play a wargame then?
Well you've got a game already dominated by value, you want to up that domination by having clusters (which I think adds a much needed element to the game).

By making alliances and making people in there play by value alone, you're basically encouraging/demanding to be even more active than they are now.

With clusters you are basically demanding crippling activity to a massive intensity to even survive if you play solely by value. I don't think (at alliance level) you've got enough people to step up to that to make it even remotely worthwhile, which means most active alliance cleans up quickly, because clusters accelerate things. The players who are the most active and the best already have the odds in their favour, they don't need more help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furyous
1) I don't think you've thought cluster alliances through. Especially in the light of exiling. Furthermore, if a cluster ally goes for value, then they won't be able to hit you if you play for XP anyway. But you could hit them.
Because of score bash, you can now hit XP whores - they are not invulnerable as they once were like in round 16. As for your point 2, I think we should measure success on all fronts by the same measure. If someone's got the balls to suggest we abolish XP altogether, please do so.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 12:10   #136
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
Well you've got a game already dominated by value, you want to up that domination by having clusters (which I think adds a much needed element to the game).
It does add an element. And what is wrong with trying it for a round? It's only 7 weeks anyway. I think it will be generally beneficial in that it invokes more interest in the game mechanics if nothing else. I'll certainly have more fun, even if I'm on the losing side in my cluster.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
Because of score bash, you can now hit XP whores - they are not invulnerable as they once were like in round 16.
But they don't have much they can lose. They don't need roids, and even their fleet would be replacable fairly quickly if they were fleetcaught.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 12:19   #137
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furyous
It does add an element. And what is wrong with trying it for a round? It's only 7 weeks anyway. I think it will be generally beneficial in that it invokes more interest in the game mechanics if nothing else. I'll certainly have more fun, even if I'm on the losing side in my cluster.
I'm not against clusters. I think they are a good thing to have, combined with the shorter round length, simply because more complex geography is more interesting than what we have currently.

Quote:
But they don't have much they can lose. They don't need roids, and even their fleet would be replacable fairly quickly if they were fleetcaught.
Well they need to be pretty determined to be continually successful when they do lose their fleet, as to be a viable XP whore, you have to keep landing. When you couldn't be hit, it was easy, now you can be stripped of your roids and your fleet pretty quickly, so you can't even save a lot of res, or stick it in your galaxy/alliance fund for later if you need fleet/want an end of round score boost. Playing XP is no longer easy - in fact it's just as difficult as value play, except in a way that demands consistently landing rather than consistently watching your planet and building it up.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 12:39   #138
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
Well they need to be pretty determined to be continually successful when they do lose their fleet, as to be a viable XP whore, you have to keep landing. When you couldn't be hit, it was easy, now you can be stripped of your roids and your fleet pretty quickly, so you can't even save a lot of res, or stick it in your galaxy/alliance fund for later if you need fleet/want an end of round score boost. Playing XP is no longer easy - in fact it's just as difficult as value play, except in a way that demands consistently landing rather than consistently watching your planet and building it up.
which is, imho, the sole and basic argument PA team started the entire XP thing, to keep fleets flying and bringing the actual war into the game for EVERY level of player!
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 15:19   #139
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furyous
2) XP is still there. Play for it if you want. I'm sure a lot of alliances will be happy with XP players. Not the top ones (by definition) of course.
Yes, but you're not thinking through the consequences.

[BIG] are a small alliance, we are highly active, we are good players, our XP whores are some of the best individual players I have seen (because individuals taking part in alliance organised raids is hardly difficult - even if you come from exi/1up).

However we play a game that we feel is right for us. This means no defence, and attack only. It requires little joint organisation, yet provides good benefits.

Big alliances will be playing for value next round therefore they will want Zik's etc in their fleets to be strong. Because of this they will want a lot of fleet catches. For a big organised alliance a fleet catch is easy.

For small alliances/unallied they are difficult to spot and defend against.

Therefore you are consigining small alliances/unallied to ONLY play for XP. Many of these will be unskilled, new players and be unable to get decent XP attacks running.

Yes they can play for XP - but they won't be high up on the Planet rank and many will find as soon as they get a decent fleet it gets stolen.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 15:27   #140
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furyous
But they don't have much they can lose. They don't need roids, and even their fleet would be replacable fairly quickly if they were fleetcaught.

That's sort of contradictory - seeing as they don't need roids, they aren't able to quickly rebuild.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 15:32   #141
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrow|Pony
That's sort of contradictory - seeing as they don't need roids, they aren't able to quickly rebuild.
unless they stockpile and value whore...

whoops! I just made a point!
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 15:39   #142
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Re: Round 20 Changes

re: Thex and [BIG] - this is exactly the kind of activity that Planetarion should embrace rather than exclude.

It's a way to 1) reward activity, because value + score > score alone, 2) level the playing field, because there's still clear incentives for alliances to target up rather than down, and 3) diversify the strategy of play, because a race to see who can hit the most inactives is pretty ****ing boring.

Additionally - Can someone from the Planetarion Team who deals with community relations please stop diddling about and...i don't know...relate to the community. These are big changes, there was no avenue for community discussion about a good number of them beforehand, and I don't think it's out of line to ask for someone to explain why they were instituted and how they fit into the grand scheme to further develop this game that we've all come to play.

Someone gets paid to do this.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 15:57   #143
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Re: Round 20 Changes

I'd still like to see an alliance power rating...like you have in sports

combine value, give it a #, take score, give it a # = the alliance power rating...base rankings on that

let's say alliance x has a score of 150 mil and a value of oh I don't know... 90 mil = power rating of 240 million

could actually do this if both numbers are tracked and it would be a true measure of alliance success...... This would allow alliances to work however they like

another thought is, have level 1 alliances, and level 2 alliances and level 3 alliances. (they could have to meet certain guidelines to be eligible to play in a particular division) make them declare their division before the round starts. this would add some fun for the smaller alliances. keep their rankings seperate, seperate levels of fight etc. (could put a committee together to coordinate it, and make fair decisions on what alliance belongs where etc. like exi for example, or 1up couldn't say "we will play in division 2" etc)
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 16:04   #144
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Re: Round 20 Changes

An Elo rating system would rock imo
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 16:10   #145
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoshuro
An Elo rating system would rock imo
please excuse my ignorance...what is an elo scoring system
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 16:12   #146
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Re: Round 20 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by aNgRyDuCk
please excuse my ignorance...what is an elo scoring system
Wiki link

Pretty hard to implement but you might like the general concept.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 16:28   #147
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Re: Round 20 Changes

It's difficult to see how players will be able to reconcile their individual goals with those of their alliance. Individual rank being measured by score and alliance rank by value means that one of them must be sacrificed (except, as has already been mentioned, for Ziks).

So far I've always been able to set my own (modest) personal targets. I always aim to end in the top 10% of planets and still make a valuable contribution to keeping my alliance in the "top ten". These proposed changes mean that I'll have to choose between these targets.

Higher up the "food chain" it could get even more complicated. Will the alliances who are "genuine contenders" for the number one spot have to insist that all their players go for value. Or will they nominate a few specific players (or even just one) to go for XP to have a better chance of getting the number one planet as well?

Interesting times.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 16:41   #148
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Re: Round 20 Changes

tl;dr

However, I don't know if its been discussed or not but the only reason pre-pax worked in terms of cluster ETAs is that there were 4 different ETAs. There were no FI pods. There was multiple targetting. I'm not saying these should or shouldnt return but you had better make some damn good stats.

I'm actually looking forward to this, it will add another dimension of both gameplay AND politics and will almost be like a revival of people with good organisation skills instead of "race to get the first wave on the big value, high roid guy"
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 16:53   #149
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Re: Round 20 Changes

These changes will make being a humble foot soldier in a semi-decent alliance a painful task once more. Under the old system, a (relative) slacker could log on once in a while, score some good XP, send an occasional def fleet and be of some use to his/her alliance. Now, alliance players are only useful if they get high value, and high value requires effort. It is a style of play that very harshly punishes mistakes, temporary inactivity (with in-cluster attacks, you now have the possibility of losing your fleet if you stay offline for 7 hours!) or simply getting roided a lot because you're in a bad galaxy.

This wouldn't be so bad if the value ranking system would achieve its stated aim, of increasing the number of alliance wars. However, I'm afraid that the notion that value ranks will lead to more war is utter nonsense. Here's an example to show why:

There are three alliances which are at similar overall value levels. One alliance might have fewer members and a higher average, but the details are unimportant. Alliance A is looking at alliance B as a potential target. But alliance C are also a threat. Pretty similar to the eX/ND/FO scenario we had this round, or the earlier scenario when Angels and Omen were separate alliances competing with ND (before eX's strength was apparent).

Imagine you're HC of alliance A. You're contemplating a war with alliance B. What do you hope to gain from it? Well, you want to reduce B's strength by roiding them and increase your own strength by having more roids. You might also be able to fleet-catch some of B's fleets, or land some attacks which kill substantial numbers of defenders.

But wait - consider the pitfalls! What if your members crash fleets on well-defended planets? After all, the risk of defence is much greater against a competent enemy. If you're short on scanners, it's a big risk to take. And yes, you might fleet-catch some of B's fleets, but there's every risk that they will do the same to you. And all you get out of it are roids which will make you everyone else's favourite targets! You'd have to be some kind of moron to declare war in that scenario (not saying it won't happen though...).

Alliance C, meanwhile, are laughing. A and B have engaged in a contest which must reduce their combined score. Because any ships killed by A reduces B's score, and vice versa. The war is bad for both sides unless one side is confident of outright, crushing victory. Stealing a few roids is no justification for a war. Nobody will even try it, because the pay-off compared to the risk is utterly pathetic.

Now, under the XP system a war might actually be profitable for both sides. A and B might roid each other, but playing swap-the-roid is actually profitable for both sides because of the XP gain. It's alliance C who are losing out by sitting on their roids hitting lowbies, because they're not getting any XP! Whereas, under a value system, avoiding dangerous conflict becomes the primary aim, because it's by far the best way of keeping your roids and ships.

Along with mil scans and increased salvage, both of which make life a lot easier for the side which is currently winning, I can see no reason why anyone would believe that next round is going to have more wars than the current one did, or indeed any previous round. Wakey had it right earlier in the thread: next round's best alliance tactic is probably to sit on your roids and bash (helpfully, this just got a lot easier with -1 in-cluster ETA!). Don't get me wrong on this; I like the cluster system, but the incentives are completely and utterly ****ed.
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Unread 15 Dec 2006, 17:02   #150
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Re: Round 20 Changes

i'm not sure how making alliance rankings by value sets up a war game on itself entirely. surely a better idea would be to change what xp is. ie xp can only be earnt from alliances you're at war with. this would need an in-game 'war' mode where you can have unlimited alliances to be at war with and allies with though. so if you gain xp from war only..even the pussyfooting shit alliances actually have an incentive to go to war etc etc

edit; i have a lot of variations for this idea which i will post when i get home in a few hrs :|
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