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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 11:27   #1
Remy
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Cheating accusations - not in the open

People,

Lately, I have seen many many accusations fly around on the forums and irc, of other people cheating, alliances cheating, etc.

Imo, this is not accepted behaviour.

I always thought that when people suspect other people of cheating, this is a case for MH team only and the planet suspected of cheating. I think that the unchecked & public accusations of cheating are:

1 - against netiquette
2 - harmfull for the planets or alliances in question (in case they are accused wrongly)
3 - not anyones bussiness

I for one would like to have a gentlemens agreement (women included :P) that accusations should be only taken up with the MH team.

I could elaborate of course, but everyone should understand this.

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P.S. lets not make this a flame thread pls?
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 11:30   #2
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Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open

couldnt agree more but its pa and there are too many sore losers in the game
winners win and losers whine its almost a tradition now
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 11:31   #3
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Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open

Agreed totally Remy.
Your always welcome in #multihunters if you have some thing along the lines of cheating and you can always submit a support ticket as they are also picked up by MH's
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 11:39   #4
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Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open

I do completely agree Remy, there boring and mostly fueled by jelousey by people who cant play PA properly
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 12:07   #5
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Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open

right there with you remy... so tired of reading the "he did this bla bla bla" threads
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 12:15   #6
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Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open

I do think we should differentiate between accusing planets of cheating when they are still open and gossiping about planets that the MH's have already closed (Kargools thread for example.)

I find the latter acceptable if not all that interesting.
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 12:45   #7
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Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
I do think we should differentiate between accusing planets of cheating when they are still open and gossiping about planets that the MH's have already closed (Kargools thread for example.)

I find the latter acceptable if not all that interesting.
i agree , if its common knowledge they have been closed then we can discuss it
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 12:51   #8
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Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open

Maybe there should be a forum specifically for reporting cheaters. Obviously there would have to be rules about what type of posts are allowed, i.e. to accuse someone you have to provide some kind of evidence to back up your claim...Then people can go there and bitch all they like about that person...
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 13:03   #9
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Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open

thats what the multi hunter channel on mIRC is for
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 13:16   #10
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Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remy
I for one would like to have a gentlemens agreement (women included :P) that accusations should be only taken up with the MH team.
While it is a nice idea just like a "clean" war is a "nice" idea it has a inherent flaw which wont make it work.

PA is a war game. (Dis-)Information is part of war. You can take a war to the forums and discredit your enemy just like you can try to make your own alliance look much better publicly in advertisements or postings.

Former enemies of myself did admit that massive negative publicity campaigns DID harm their alliance because morality and activity went down among their own members and they got less new member requests due to it. It doesnt even matter if the negative publicity is ultimately true ("if you keep repeating a lie, people will start believing it") as long as part of the community does believe it.

Its dirty, its unfriendly, it might ruin some players fun to compete and play but it works and those are your "enemy" and its a war game. A gentleman agreement would only work till the next person realises how they can get an ingame advantage by breaking the agreement.

Its like continuing to bashing your enemies new members - it might even harm the game in the long run, but it does work.

IMHO it needs a policy/rule made from the forum admins or PA-Team because a gentleman agreement wont work just like it wouldnt work in the long run against bashing, spying, side-fencing, betrayal, secretly allying etc.
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 13:26   #11
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Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open

OMG remy they agree with you, call the news

Nah just kidding I agree too but he knows that since we talk a lot about stuff like this on priv server.

All i have to add to his remarks is the following.

Look at all those posts true the eyes of new players that are intrested in the game or just started it.
It gives a very negative view on the game and that's not something we need in a time where we are looking to get new players to start playing the game.
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 16:54   #12
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Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open

well as long as the mh team doesnt do their job there will always be gossip and rumours.

but why cant it be open who cares if allies get hurt then a cheater is closed, show the coords and why the bastard was closed so everyone know..
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 21:51   #13
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Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open

I agree if its cheating accusations without proof. If there is proof it should be made public as many ppl in this game have no trust in the work the MH'ers does or at least their objectivity on a case to case basis.
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 22:27   #14
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Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open

Propaganda is a huge part of warfare.
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Unread 25 Aug 2006, 00:27   #15
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Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open

Quote:
Originally Posted by robban1
well as long as the mh team doesnt do their job there will always be gossip and rumours.

but why cant it be open who cares if allies get hurt then a cheater is closed, show the coords and why the bastard was closed so everyone know..
While I do understand why you'd want it... cheaters getting what they deserve etc. What happens when the person really is innocent? And did *nothing* wrong? Their name is now dragged through the mud, which may harm future dealings with various alliances who don't want to be associated with a 'cheater'.

Kind of the electronic equivelant of a newspaper saying "so and so is a murderer!" and then being found innocent.
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Unread 25 Aug 2006, 01:06   #16
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Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open

Squildy then you should do your work good before posting any info on the prick who cheated
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Unread 25 Aug 2006, 05:09   #17
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Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open

Good work is for the weak!
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Unread 25 Aug 2006, 07:59   #18
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Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open

The one gentleman agreement I'd like everyone to respect would be to stop cheating.
But as in real life you'll have cheaters who will always deny it as long they can, knowing that the reasonable doubt is always playing for them... and there's enough grey zones in PA rules to allow that. For 1 cheater being caught, how many go away with it ?
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Unread 25 Aug 2006, 11:20   #19
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Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open

Quote:
Originally Posted by Treveler
I agree if its cheating accusations without proof. If there is proof it should be made public as many ppl in this game have no trust in the work the MH'ers does or at least their objectivity on a case to case basis.
This is pretty much my position (and the AD position)
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Unread 25 Aug 2006, 13:52   #20
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Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open

couldn't agree with you more Remy, PA players are among the worst ppl for gossiping that I know. It's not really anyone elses business apart from the planet that's accused and the multihunters.
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Unread 25 Aug 2006, 14:00   #21
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Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ptraci
couldn't agree with you more Remy, PA players are among the worst ppl for gossiping that I know. It's not really anyone elses business apart from the planet that's accused and the multihunters.

wrong wrong wrong
if the cheater who gained ships and roids from farming/donations use it to get upper hand and roid other ppl with it the guys who lost out to a cheater are all within their rights to know who screwed up their rounds

this is most common in the start of the round and if he can attack a target with stolen ships that he should have or could build with farmed roids it affects the target kinda hard.

stop this pussy around with the cheaters asap


edit: im suprised that this is the attitude the useless support guys uphold on the matter O.o
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Unread 25 Aug 2006, 14:28   #22
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Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open

Cheating affects us all, especially when it's the top players doing it. Naming and shaming is the way to go, even more so when it's past round winners.
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Unread 25 Aug 2006, 15:49   #23
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Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Cheating affects us all, especially when it's the top players doing it. Naming and shaming is the way to go, even more so when it's past round winners.
couldn't agree more. I would still love to see a public board with all planet coords & nicks including the offence and what action was taken (only planets that have found to be in violation of the EULA by the MH) and the date it was done (this list will stay 'forever'). This would for one help the MH team as they can publicly show what they do while at the same time making cheating less interesting as i think that (well)known players don't want to end up on that list.

It will also stop most of the unfounded accussations as ppl can actually see what happen instead of guessing what might have been done. I certainly don't agree to the whole privacy matter of the planets who have been found to violate the rules, as it is something that affects all players and thus should be known to all.
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Unread 25 Aug 2006, 16:21   #24
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Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Cheating affects us all, especially when it's the top players doing it. Naming and shaming is the way to go, even more so when it's past round winners.
Yes, defintely. To an extent.

I think the case Remy is refering to, is when a certain alliance high commander started ranting on the representatives channel about a member of a top alliance cheating. The evidence this person had to back up was futile at best, and came up to "it's facts because I know" -statement. Randomly running around "shaming" people of cheating is not a polite habit at any level. Especially if you're not prepared to back up your claims with, for example, solid scan/log evidence of this cheating, but only with your "belief of being correct".
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Unread 25 Aug 2006, 16:54   #25
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Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open

who was it Keiz ?

who were they accusing ?
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Unread 25 Aug 2006, 18:21   #26
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Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
Yes, defintely. To an extent.

I think the case Remy is refering to, is when a certain alliance high commander started ranting on the representatives channel about a member of a top alliance cheating. The evidence this person had to back up was futile at best, and came up to "it's facts because I know" -statement. Randomly running around "shaming" people of cheating is not a polite habit at any level. Especially if you're not prepared to back up your claims with, for example, solid scan/log evidence of this cheating, but only with your "belief of being correct".
So you're using a conversation from a private IRC channel to demand changes to both public IRC channels and the PA forums? Wonderful way to back up an argument there.

You're not going to get a gentleman's agreement out of this, I just don't see it happening. One retard does not equal this level of censorship being proposed.
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Unread 25 Aug 2006, 18:35   #27
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Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open

I dont see why we cant name and shame the persons getting caught for cheating so that persons who may cross their paths in the future might have an early warning against persons who have been closed for cheating in the past.

This should ofc only count for thoose who have been closed and remained closed throughout the round.
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Unread 26 Aug 2006, 07:24   #28
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Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open

it's only cheating if you get caught am i right or am i rite
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Unread 26 Aug 2006, 10:39   #29
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Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome
it's only cheating if you get caught am i right or am i rite
Actually this supposed "gentlemans agreement" would mean "its only cheating if you get caught with enough evidence by officials (and they think it was worth enough to ban you for the rest of the round)".

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
One retard does not equal this level of censorship being proposed.
You should know better how "censorship" is defined
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Unread 26 Aug 2006, 12:47   #30
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Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramihyn
You should know better how "censorship" is defined
I tried very very hard to understand what you meant by this, but failed.


The AD rule is that "Cheat posts will not be accepted unless they contain evidence and generally, multihunters close planets, not AD mods."

This was recently demonstrated by lokken's closure of the "Allegations and Rumours" threads that were posted on AD a few days ago. They alleged cheating while offering no evidence to back those claims up.


What remy is proposing is no discussion of cheating or the cheaters themselves. I don't believe this is a sensible approach. I believe that it can be correct to publicise cheating at appropriate times (such as elviz's recent closure). Should this thread never have been made?
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Unread 26 Aug 2006, 13:22   #31
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Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open

I think perhaps people should be name and shamed, but only of course after the MH has spoken to the individual and decided to keep them closed based on the evidence and their appeal. I think posting publicaly straight after a closure without an appeal would be pretty pointless.
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 04:06   #32
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Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open

when is elvis getting deleted.
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 06:24   #33
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Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open

I think the forums are the perfect place for rumors of cheating. If you have real proof you take it to #multihunters ASAP but if you don't go spread a rumor on the forums and maybe some proof will surface.

By the way it might be helpful to find cheaters if there was a reward for ratting out your Multi, account sharing, or farming buddies. Maybe a system to earn game credits or something.
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 07:34   #34
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Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
I think the forums are the perfect place for rumors of cheating. If you have real proof you take it to #multihunters ASAP but if you don't go spread a rumor on the forums and maybe some proof will surface.

By the way it might be helpful to find cheaters if there was a reward for ratting out your Multi, account sharing, or farming buddies. Maybe a system to earn game credits or something.
Surely the fact of knowing somone whos cheating is playing with an unfair advantage over yourself would cause you to report it without having to give out rewards.
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 10:00   #35
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Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
I tried very very hard to understand what you meant by this, but failed.
The legal definition of "censorship" is very specific. Remy is supposing a gentlemans agreement which doesnt include any censorship at all because there is no higher entity like the government, the owner of this portal or even the forum mods who enforces it. I could continue to post cheating accusations all day no matter if this "gentlemans agreement" exists or not :O

At most such a agreement could lead to self-censoring among those who agreed to it. But only for as long as they decide for themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assassin
Surely the fact of knowing somone whos cheating is playing with an unfair advantage over yourself would cause you to report it without having to give out rewards.
Not necessarily if they are playing in your own alliance and therefore you gain an advantage from it.

Last edited by Ramihyn; 27 Aug 2006 at 10:06.
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 13:30   #36
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Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
So you're using a conversation from a private IRC channel to demand changes to both public IRC channels and the PA forums? Wonderful way to back up an argument there.

You're not going to get a gentleman's agreement out of this, I just don't see it happening. One retard does not equal this level of censorship being proposed.
This is why I wasn't backing up the argument, I was *agreeing* that the "shaming" is a decent (Couldn't come up with a better word) way of the community working it's toll against cheaters, but there's some people who take the "shaming" to an extent where it's no longer "shaming cheaters" but witch hunt based on personal feelings and vendetta. When there's evidence around of cheating, it's definately "good" for the community to put pressure on it through "shaming", but when the evidence is at best mostly not available (claimed to exist but not disclosed to people), and of the available parts futile (based on emotions, and vain claims), it gets a little pathetic.

It's like I'd be running around with a serious shaming agenda on my mind claiming furball cheats just because I don't like furball and he's definately a cheater and the fact that he moderates a PA forum just backs up his cheating he's definately in the inner circle of PA-team involved cheaters. I have tons of evidence, IRC logs and all, but I definately won't show them, you can ask them from another person too, who won't show them either. This is the point where the "good sides of shaming" become the "bad sides of gossip and witch hunt", spite being a public or private channel. And what place, would, eventually, be a better place to propage than a channel where a lot of alliance leaders sit in? Obviously a good way to make yourself appear ridiculous too.


edit.

so you won't misunderstand it - this is WHY I quoted you saying "naming and shaming is the way to go" and said "Yes, definately - to an extent".
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 19:58   #37
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Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
This is why I wasn't backing up the argument, I was *agreeing* that the "shaming" is a decent (Couldn't come up with a better word) way of the community working it's toll against cheaters, but there's some people who take the "shaming" to an extent where it's no longer "shaming cheaters" but witch hunt based on personal feelings and vendetta. When there's evidence around of cheating, it's definately "good" for the community to put pressure on it through "shaming", but when the evidence is at best mostly not available (claimed to exist but not disclosed to people), and of the available parts futile (based on emotions, and vain claims), it gets a little pathetic.

It's like I'd be running around with a serious shaming agenda on my mind claiming furball cheats just because I don't like furball and he's definately a cheater and the fact that he moderates a PA forum just backs up his cheating he's definately in the inner circle of PA-team involved cheaters. I have tons of evidence, IRC logs and all, but I definately won't show them, you can ask them from another person too, who won't show them either. This is the point where the "good sides of shaming" become the "bad sides of gossip and witch hunt", spite being a public or private channel. And what place, would, eventually, be a better place to propage than a channel where a lot of alliance leaders sit in? Obviously a good way to make yourself appear ridiculous too.


edit.

so you won't misunderstand it - this is WHY I quoted you saying "naming and shaming is the way to go" and said "Yes, definately - to an extent".

I don't disagree with you. I get the feeling that I mis-interpreted the post of yours that I quoted in my post, and so for that I do apologise. At the same time, I'm not sure that I was clear enough when I supported 'naming and shaming' - it can, of course, only be effectively carried out by PA-Team, not members of alliances who naturally have a vested interest in seeing their opponents' cheating exposed.

Nevertheless, it still applies to all those who think that a gentleman's agreeement is a viable option. Self-censorship is impossible while censorship from above will not be extended - we have a successful rule already in place.
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