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7 Sep 2006, 20:40
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#1
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Caveat Lector
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Posts: 3,038
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Can someone explain UK politics to me, please?
Tony Blair is stepping down and this Brown is taking over even though nobody voted for him? Is that possible? How was Blair 'forced' out? I am confused.
Last edited by s|k; 7 Sep 2006 at 22:35.
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7 Sep 2006, 20:43
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#2
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For Crowly <3
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Luton, England
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Re: Someone explain to me UK politics
Apparently we vote for the party to run the country, not the person. Which I think is shit.
I'd personally rather have a General Election to get the twat-head Labour party out of Office. I never thought I'd say this but Id rather have a Conservative running things than Brown.
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7 Sep 2006, 20:54
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#3
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: Someone explain to me UK politics
given the thread title I think it'd be better all round if someone taught you how to construct a sentence
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7 Sep 2006, 21:01
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#4
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Aardvark is a funny word
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Re: Someone explain to me UK politics
"Gerald Ford"
edit: At length: Brown was voted into Parliament, same as Blair. Blair was voted head of the Labour party bu the Labour party, same as Brown will likely be. Labour is the majority governing party, and the head of the majority governing party in Parliament is traditionally bearer of the title Prime Minister (ignoring the de facto formalities of Royal Assent).
What will happen in a year is perfectly legitimate, entirely in the spirit of the Parliamentary system, and has happened a number of times before. You've had vice presidents installed as President before - and that's a wholly unelected individual replacing a wholly elected one.
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Last edited by Phang; 7 Sep 2006 at 21:09.
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7 Sep 2006, 21:05
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#5
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Not Dark or Handsome
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Cwmbru
Posts: 2,588
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Re: Someone explain to me UK politics
We vote for the party, and the party members vote for the leader - Gordon Brown won't necessarily take over, there'll be a leadership conteset within the Labour party at some point to decide who does.
Tony Blair wasn't really forced out, he's just been forced to say when as he had foolishly mentioned that he intended to leave the job just after (i think) the last election, and some members of his party think that it puts him (and them) in a weak position - which is ironic, since that is why he didn't want to say when in the first place. They want him to quit sooner rather than later so the new leader has time to prove himself for the next election, probably because they see David Cameron as more of a threat than the last few Conservative leaders.
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Last edited by Apothos; 7 Sep 2006 at 21:11.
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7 Sep 2006, 21:20
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#6
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Klaatu barada nikto
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota
Posts: 3,237
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Re: Someone explain to me UK politics
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smudge
Apparently we vote for the party to run the country, not the person. Which I think is shit.
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Depends who's actually running the show I guess; but yeah. In general, though, I think term limits are the win. Left to their own devices, politicians will almost always want to hang on too long. :/
Quote:
I'd personally rather have a General Election to get the twat-head Labour party out of Office.
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You just had a general election last year. Has the political climate changed that much, that quickly?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
You've had vice presidents installed as President before - and that's a wholly unelected individual replacing a wholly elected one.
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Vice Presidents are usually elected to office, same as Presidents. Gerald Ford and his Vice President Nelson Rockefeller have been the only exceptions.
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7 Sep 2006, 21:25
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#7
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Aardvark is a funny word
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: I'm No Nino Rota
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Re: Someone explain to me UK politics
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
Vice Presidents are usually elected to office, same as Presidents. Gerald Ford and his Vice President Nelson Rockefeller have been the only exceptions.
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of course, sorry. My head was stuck in thinking of the VP as an extension of the cabinet (as the Deputy PM is here) - which we elect and you don't.
Anyway though, Gerald Ford.
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7 Sep 2006, 21:32
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#8
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For Crowly <3
Join Date: Aug 2003
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Re: Someone explain to me UK politics
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
You just had a general election last year. Has the political climate changed that much, that quickly?
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**** ups and Iraq and Afghan = new direction needed.
The direction being our troops out of the respective countries
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7 Sep 2006, 21:34
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#9
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Aardvark is a funny word
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Re: Someone explain to me UK politics
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smudge
**** ups and Iraq and Afghan = new direction needed.
The direction being our troops out of the respective countries
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certainly none of those issues existed in 2005 right enough
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Efficiency, efficiency they say
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7 Sep 2006, 21:35
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#10
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: Someone explain to me UK politics
Americans will find it terribly difficult to understand a parliamentary democracy as they come from a presidential republic.
Our system has no singular leader.
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7 Sep 2006, 21:37
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#11
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For Crowly <3
Join Date: Aug 2003
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Re: Someone explain to me UK politics
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
certainly none of those issues existed in 2005 right enough
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They were supposed to be "over" by now, but things are getting worse.
With the mood of the British Public, I'm pretty sure any political party would get a majority if they had on there manifesto the withdrawal of troops.
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7 Sep 2006, 21:43
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#12
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: Someone explain to me UK politics
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smudge
They were supposed to be "over" by now, but things are getting worse.
With the mood of the British Public, I'm pretty sure any political party would get a majority if they had on there manifesto the withdrawal of troops.
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then set up your own party and run
but i'm pretty sure that single issue politics has never been popular in Britain
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7 Sep 2006, 22:00
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#13
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Infrequent
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 186
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Re: Someone explain to me UK politics
I was full of glee when this happened to the Thatcher in the 80's. They announced it in the student union over the speakers.
It wasn't until we suffered the ineptitude of both parties thereafter that you realised she was a strong leader.
I feel now somewhat more slightly sorry for Blair when I look at what is on offer from both parties. He's made mistakes for sure, but the world's getting crazier by the day. I'd have him over Bush every time.
We shall see. When it comes to politics I'm asexual so I'm not a Blue Nose nor Welsh before it starts.
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7 Sep 2006, 22:07
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#14
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: Someone explain to me UK politics
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maladoni
I was full of glee when this happened to the Thatcher in the 80's. They announced it in the student union over the speakers.
It wasn't until we suffered the ineptitude of both parties thereafter that you realised she was a strong leader.
I feel now somewhat more slightly sorry for Blair when I look at what is on offer from both parties. He's made mistakes for sure, but the world's getting crazier by the day. I'd have him over Bush every time.
We shall see. When it comes to politics I'm asexual so I'm not a Blue Nose nor Welsh before it starts.
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not enough people in Britain know what a prime minister is
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7 Sep 2006, 22:08
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#15
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deserves a medal
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,211
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Re: Someone explain to me UK politics
I didn't know people in the rest of the world were allowed to vote too \o/
I always thought president Bush was the president of our planet
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7 Sep 2006, 22:12
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#16
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: Someone explain to me UK politics
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessio
I didn't know people in the rest of the world were allowed to vote too \o/
I always thought president Bush was the president of our planet
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EU and common wealth nationals resident in Britain can vote in our elections - local and general.
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7 Sep 2006, 22:30
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#17
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Infrequent
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 186
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Re: Someone explain to me UK politics
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
not enough people in Britain know what a prime minister is
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She was strong. But then again, she followed Heath.
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7 Sep 2006, 22:37
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#18
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Flash in the PAN
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Birmingham, Romania
Posts: 554
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Re: Someone explain to me UK politics
Well s|k I dont know how it works in America but here you vote for a party and then the leader can change during a term without re-election.
Blair is trying to stay in right until the election to give Brown less time to **** everything up so labour stays in power.
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7 Sep 2006, 22:42
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#19
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Aardvark is a funny word
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Re: Someone explain to me UK politics
the most terrifying thing about how dull Brown is and how corrupt all his cronies are is that John Reid is in with a shout at being in charge of the country
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Efficiency, efficiency they say
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As the crowds begin complaining
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7 Sep 2006, 22:42
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#20
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Dreamer in Pit of Hell
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Derbyshire
Posts: 443
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Re: Someone explain to me UK politics
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
You just had a general election last year. Has the political climate changed that much, that quickly?
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To be honest a lot of people were hoodwinked by shallow promises by Blair before the last election...at the time they were re-elected they were warned that in this term all failures were their own and couldnt be blamed on the previous tory government...because of this they have lost their way and it has started to become more apparent how much failings have crept in to their actions.
Blair has changed his mind on stepping down on 3 occasions now as he first announced he was going after the 2001 elections....this is why their is so much furore over it....and dont expect all this to be the end of it..now hes announced he is going dont be surprised to see votes of no confidence announced and leadership challenges occurring (altho not with brown to start with...he isnt that stupid apparently)
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7 Sep 2006, 22:47
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#21
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Aardvark is a funny word
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Re: Someone explain to me UK politics
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timeline
Blair has changed his mind on stepping down on 3 occasions now as he first announced he was going after the 2001 elections....this is why their is so much furore over it....
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he said in 2005 that he would step down before the next election, but that's it. unless you're thinking of the "deal" with Brown (that there's no proof of but plenty of denials) that he'd make way after two terms?
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Efficiency, efficiency they say
Get to know the date and tell the time of day
As the crowds begin complaining
How the Beaujolais is raining
Down on darkened meetings on the Champs Élysées
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7 Sep 2006, 22:59
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#22
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Dreamer in Pit of Hell
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Derbyshire
Posts: 443
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Re: Someone explain to me UK politics
it was stated well before the last election that he was standing down....and the implications that he was going were in his speaches just after the 2001 election. Its why there was the big furore over it all when he made his announcement that he was seeing through the majority of this term just before the last election
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7 Sep 2006, 23:02
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#23
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Bored
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Nottm ->Shef ->Croydon ->Manc ->Durham ->Sheffield
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Re: Someone explain to me UK politics
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
You just had a general election last year. Has the political climate changed that much, that quickly?
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The conservatives are much stronger now than they were before the last election. The Lib Dems are probably weaker though.
Also a lot of the things that the Labour party put in place in their second term are coming into effect and everyone is realising how shit they were.
This includes the NHS, education, Iraq, crime, immigration etc etc etc
On top of that the economy doesn't seem as indestructive as it did a few years ago, house prices are still going up and fuel prices are skyrocketing.
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7 Sep 2006, 23:05
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#24
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Commodore
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 3,176
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Re: Someone explain to me UK politics
What is it with politicians and Kirribilli Agreements?
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7 Sep 2006, 23:06
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#25
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Registered Awesome Person
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,676
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Re: Someone explain to me UK politics
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
Depends who's actually running the show I guess; but yeah. In general, though, I think term limits are the win. Left to their own devices, politicians will almost always want to hang on too long. :/
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However, you do end up losing the best politicians too soon. With seniority determining committee chairships, the older ones not constrained by term limits will never be replaced by the new bright sparks governed by these limits.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
You just had a general election last year. Has the political climate changed that much, that quickly?
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Probably.
Imagine having a presidential election just as Watergate starts to unravel. Things might go really wrong but it's not obvious yet. The opposing candidate isn't a credible opponent and so Nixon gets voted back in, although his new Congress favours the Republicans a lot less in comparison to the massive Republican advantage in the two previous elections.
The figures:
1997 Final Result: Labour 419 seats, Conservatives 165 seats, Liberal Democrats 46 seats, Others 29 seats (majority of 179)
2001 Final Result: Labour 413 seats, Conservatives 166 seats, Liberal Democrats 52 seats, Others 28 seats (majority of 167)
2005 Final Result: Labour 356 seats, Conservatives 198 seats, Liberal Democrats 62 seats, Others 30 seats (majority of 66)
Furthermore, a charismatic young new leader (Clinton-esque) of the Conservative Party was recently elected to replace an experienced unelectable placeholder. The problem in 2005 was that despite Blair's problems, there was no credible alternative to him. In 2006, this is no longer the case. For example, would anyone but Clinton have defeated George Bush Snr.?
Blair's seemingly inevitable replacement is Gordon Brown, the man who has been the number 2 in the Blair Government for the last 9 years. He has been expected to succeed Blair for a long time, and at least until 2003/2004, everyone assumed that he would follow comfortably and would be a viable candidate for the public. However, would George Bush have succeeded Reagan if he wasn't up against Dukakis? The current argument amongst 'Brownites' is that he needs as much time as possible to form his own identifiable government after the handover before new elections, and a chance to come up with policies that will defeat Cameron. Others in the fragmenting Labour Party believe that neither Blair nor Brown are the future of the party, and that an alternative candidate is needed - e.g. if there had been a decent alternative to Al Gore for the Democrats in 2000.
Personally I don't believe that either Blair or Brown have a chance against Cameron. However, Alan Johnson (similar to Evan Bayh from what I can tell) is a strong potential candidate against Brown; John Reid is another candidate who would contest a Brown succession.
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7 Sep 2006, 23:14
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#26
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,174
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Re: Someone explain to me UK politics
I've lost faith in politics (although I don't remember ever having any to start with)
Basically whoever gets in will do the same spin/enforce stupid new laws/cock ups/war mongering/smile for the camera while you increase taxes crap as usual. So its just down to who you'd rather see on the front pages or hear on the tv.
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7 Sep 2006, 23:14
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#27
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: Someone explain to me UK politics
a vote in Britain means that you vote for a representitive.
you vote for that representitive on a 4 year promise. that said representitive will do what you want him to do.
parties are a concept outside voting. they are a matter for those representitives. Churchill changed party 3 times.
britain does not elect a prime minister. because a prime minister is not relevant. when the election is finished those elected representitives choose to either join together and form a government. or not.
it is their choice.
A prime minister is appointed by her majesty on one criteria - that the majority of elected representitives agree that this one representitive should be prime minister.
Tony Blair is a British prime minister. he is prime minister because her majesty the queen asked him to be prime minister. We do not have an election to appoint a prime minister.
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7 Sep 2006, 23:20
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#28
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:alpha:
Join Date: May 2002
Location: London, UK
Posts: 7,871
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Re: Someone explain to me UK politics
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
not enough people in Britain know what a prime minister is
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I bet most of them know that the Prime Minister's son was taken ill in Barbados recently though!
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7 Sep 2006, 23:23
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#29
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:alpha:
Join Date: May 2002
Location: London, UK
Posts: 7,871
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Re: Someone explain to me UK politics
And yahwe you're right but the majority of the British public like to personify organisations (Virgin = Richard Branson, Microsoft = Bill Gates etc) because it helps them to identify with them. It's stupid but it's just how the media (and by "media" I mainly mean the tabloids) relate news and politics to us.
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7 Sep 2006, 23:26
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#30
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Dreamer in Pit of Hell
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Derbyshire
Posts: 443
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Re: Someone explain to me UK politics
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
I bet most of them know that the Prime Minister's son was taken ill in Barbados recently though!
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please don't let me get started on that kettle of fish :/
pre labour government cause the scrapping of the royal yacht because of its cost.....yet the blair family outings every 3 months cost more than a years upkeep on what was the pride of the navy...
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7 Sep 2006, 23:27
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#31
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: Someone explain to me UK politics
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
I bet most of them know that the Prime Minister's son was taken ill in Barbados recently though!
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I took time and effort to explain what the Administrative and Regulatory Reform bill meant and it was then that i realised no one knew what a minister is,
was that your (their) fault?
I realised that no one had ever told the people. THE PEOPLE WHO VOTE! What a minister is. No one had even tried.
It is not your fault that you don't know something if no one has ever told you.
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