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Unread 23 Dec 2014, 09:25   #101
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

If you want to capture Beetles to defend your alliance against FI/CO, you shouldn't be building DE anti-FI/CO.
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Unread 23 Dec 2014, 09:58   #102
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
If you want to capture Beetles to defend your alliance against FI/CO, you shouldn't be building DE anti-FI/CO.
If you are going DE, CO will be the least of your problems.
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Unread 23 Dec 2014, 12:41   #103
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
If you want to capture Beetles to defend your alliance against FI/CO, you shouldn't be building DE anti-FI/CO.
I think theres a bit of a misunderstanding here.
You're not building DE to capture Co. You're building DE to steal roids and to defend your roids. You're building anti Co because you don't want Co defending vs you and you dont want Co roiding you. You're not gonna attack with DE and send cutlass along for anti Co, if you're building a DE fleet, you're gonna build De that shoots at Co.
Now because you went Zik, some of your ships steal instead of kill. This can be good or sometimes annoying if you end up stealing useless ships in the wrong shipclass. With DE stealing Co, this falls more on the usefull than useless side and the proposed change (option 2) would make DE quite nice vs Co.

Ofcourse you could say, making the Thief a killship with low init, would make Zik DE even better, but that wasn't one of the options proposed and probably isnt that good for the overall balance anyway.
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Unread 23 Dec 2014, 20:23   #104
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Do we really want to have another round where xan fi can roid other xans without issues?

It might not have been a problem when these stats were played the first time, it sure is now tough with the way xp/mc work.

Might as well play with the same crappy stats as last round then, as it'll be borring as hell.

I like where most of this is going, but I really want this xan worked out before we move further.

I agree that zik could do with a DE class co stealer - as a zik you want to steal, not kill.
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Unread 23 Dec 2014, 20:33   #105
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

I kind of disagree on FI being too strong. There will only be FR/CR/BS out there on allie strat.
Ofc there will be xan FI whoring tags, but on the extent as last round? Im not sure.
All though Kaiba was critizing my stats for being FI friendly, i wonder whats his take on these stats
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Unread 23 Dec 2014, 20:34   #106
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by berten View Post
It might not have been a problem when these stats were played the first time, it sure is now tough with the way xp/mc work.
You should look up how XP has changed since r59. Any suggestion that XP is still overpowered is nothing short of laughable.
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Unread 23 Dec 2014, 20:51   #107
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
You should look up how XP has changed since r59. Any suggestion that XP is still overpowered is nothing short of laughable.
I must have missed this.

link please?


nm - just tested stuff on winterround? guess you are right, its not as bas as it was last round
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Unread 23 Dec 2014, 21:00   #108
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

what i dislike the most about this set, and also the other suggested ones:

its all the same over and over again!

xan have fi, are fully cloaked, weak armour, med-high damage
cath have co, fully emp, with maybe 1 or 2 useless kill ships
ter awefully boring with a fr or de fleet and ofc bs
etd an aweful mix of all of the above (with bs pods - surprise)
and zik so weak cause they could end with a kickass fleet in the very end if not nerved enough

ITS BORING

cant someone (which stats get maybe choosen - so anyone whos connected to appoco) come up with something new, diverse and interesting ?
Please
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Unread 23 Dec 2014, 22:00   #109
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
what i dislike the most about this set, and also the other suggested ones:

its all the same over and over again!

xan have fi, are fully cloaked, weak armour, med-high damage
cath have co, fully emp, with maybe 1 or 2 useless kill ships
ter awefully boring with a fr or de fleet and ofc bs
etd an aweful mix of all of the above (with bs pods - surprise)
and zik so weak cause they could end with a kickass fleet in the very end if not nerved enough

ITS BORING

cant someone (which stats get maybe choosen - so anyone whos connected to appoco) come up with something new, diverse and interesting ?
Please
Whats ur opinion of mine?
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Unread 23 Dec 2014, 22:36   #110
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Whats ur opinion of mine?
He said all sets suggested, that includes yours, are boring. Please read better.

In regards to Xan Fi in these stats they are sooooo paperthin that they don't play well in xp style, with or without a new xp formula
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Unread 23 Dec 2014, 23:43   #111
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post

its all the same over and over again!
the way the combat engine works its not easy to diversify much
every race has had every kind of roidclass at some point
until changes are made to the dynamics of combat/research, its hard to change much
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Unread 24 Dec 2014, 05:06   #112
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
the way the combat engine works its not easy to diversify much
every race has had every kind of roidclass at some point
until changes are made to the dynamics of combat/research, its hard to change much
yes i am aware of the limited range for diversity to be able to happen
yet we have the same podclasses on all races, on and on (cath co, xan fi, ter bs, zik cr) for a few rounds now
and as naturally xan and cath are the most picked races and fi/co the most viable attack combos (if stats allow) because of eta advantage
we end seeing the same alliance setups, the same thoughts behind alliance strategies like always

i´d just welcome a round where ter maybe have the fi fleet and etd the co one (for example)
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Unread 24 Dec 2014, 07:47   #113
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
yes i am aware of the limited range for diversity to be able to happen
yet we have the same podclasses on all races, on and on (cath co, xan fi, ter bs, zik cr) for a few rounds now
and as naturally xan and cath are the most picked races and fi/co the most viable attack combos (if stats allow) because of eta advantage
we end seeing the same alliance setups, the same thoughts behind alliance strategies like always

i´d just welcome a round where ter maybe have the fi fleet and etd the co one (for example)
While that's understandable, I think there are also quite some people who like shipstats they recognize. There's already complaining when a shipname is with the wrong race. I guess for the people who are more 'into' shipstats mixing it up could make it more interesting, (Xan with BS/CR only roiders, what would that do? ) but I'm afraid we're in a minority.
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Unread 24 Dec 2014, 11:29   #114
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
the way the combat engine works its not easy to diversify much
every race has had every kind of roidclass at some point
until changes are made to the dynamics of combat/research, its hard to change much
We could change that, if we're willing to.
One way could be make FI/CO good/ok vs FI/CO but weak vs FR/DE and BS/CR good/ok vs BS/CR but strong vs FR/DE.
And we haven't seen this much over the rounds.
That would need just a change on stats.
But, ofc, there would be people whining about Xan FI beeing too weak, as always they do
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Unread 24 Dec 2014, 12:38   #115
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by Shhhhhhh View Post
While that's understandable, I think there are also quite some people who like shipstats they recognize. There's already complaining when a shipname is with the wrong race. I guess for the people who are more 'into' shipstats mixing it up could make it more interesting, (Xan with BS/CR only roiders, what would that do? ) but I'm afraid we're in a minority.
you can name the TER FI Pegasus, i dont mind names :P

i know where your coming from though, not so sure if we are a minority , but just the ones with not enough influence
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Unread 24 Dec 2014, 12:42   #116
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Paging Influence to thread #200677. Influence to 200677.
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Unread 24 Dec 2014, 12:50   #117
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by lince View Post
We could change that, if we're willing to.
One way could be make FI/CO good/ok vs FI/CO but weak vs FR/DE and BS/CR good/ok vs BS/CR but strong vs FR/DE.
And we haven't seen this much over the rounds.
That would need just a change on stats.
But, ofc, there would be people whining about Xan FI beeing too weak, as always they do
Is this sarcastic or not because if not .......
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Unread 24 Dec 2014, 12:58   #118
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Regarding the ship names thing the way I see is that I don't have an issue with new names for ships and some interchanging but each race has some staple ships which everyone knows. You shouldn't screw with them.

Example:

Terran - Pegasus as De based fi/co killer, Wyvern and Dragon as BS ships and Harpy as Fi ship. The rest are movable/changeable/removable.

What you don't want is confusion when asking for things. If now someone asks for Pegs on def you dont have to check what it does, people know it kills fi or co or both. It saves mountains of faff.

Each race has roughly 4 ships that should stay the same all the time to keep continuity.
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Unread 24 Dec 2014, 13:23   #119
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Agreed, with one caveat: it's not necessary for every set of stats to have a Ter De firing at Fi and/or Co, but when such a ship exists, it should be called the Pegasus, and the name Pegasus should not be used for other ships.

I think that's what you meant as well?
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Unread 24 Dec 2014, 13:51   #120
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

There is a lot of diffrent opinion on what is good or bad for ship strats. Myself like having FI/CO avalible for def.
Last round was very special due to ST.
Maybe someone could gather a sum up on wich allies has won PA heavy based in FI/CO the last 15 rounds?
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Unread 24 Dec 2014, 15:02   #121
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

If your alliance ship strat is already strong against a certain class, there's little point in going out of your way to build defense ships outside of your normal roiding class(es) that also target that ship.

In that sense, Patrikc is right, if everyone in your alliance went De, and you steal a bunch of Co, you won't be very happy. But that's true of all stealing. What if you steal Cr? Or Bs? If you don't want to convert half your roiding fleet, don't play Zik.

I still support by the Thief stealer idea. As for the other choice Isil presented (add a Fi or change targetting on De), I don't have a strong opinion.

At this point, I'd say: Isil, bite the bullet, pick one, make them final by Christmas and let someone else squat on the beta server for the remaining week or so. Not that I have anything to say about that.

Man, this is a luxury unheard of in PA history: we might have 3 sets of stats to choose from!
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Unread 24 Dec 2014, 15:15   #122
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

The whole idea of navigating through a round is doing good steals, why else would you have steal ships?
Is unplayable offensive, getting beetles will be crucial for not getting fecked over by FI
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Unread 24 Dec 2014, 16:42   #123
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Where is the third set? I've only seen BB and isil stats..? Link pls!
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Unread 24 Dec 2014, 18:55   #124
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...YTgZechkskKbCM
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Unread 24 Dec 2014, 19:11   #125
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by baggy View Post
Where is the third set? I've only seen BB and isil stats..? Link pls!
I heard of a couple of people working on sets, but I was talking hypothetically. I don't have a candidate lined up or anything.

Now's a good time to step forward, people!
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Unread 24 Dec 2014, 19:30   #126
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

The link i posted is Machadoes set.
Unless someone got it on paper, their set shouldnt be considered.
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Unread 24 Dec 2014, 20:36   #127
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

I was doing nothing... what do you think about this: http://tinyurl.com/kl22gav
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Unread 24 Dec 2014, 21:14   #128
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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The link i posted is Machadoes set.
Unless someone got it on paper, their set shouldnt be considered.
If they're using paper, their set shouldnt be considered.
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Unread 24 Dec 2014, 22:19   #129
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Unless someone got it on paper, their set shouldnt be considered.
A week is enough time to put a full set together from scratch, but I agree that we should prefer someone who's got a full set ready to go.
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Unread 24 Dec 2014, 22:32   #130
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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A week is enough time to put a full set together from scratch, but I agree that we should prefer someone who's got a full set ready to go.
Me and Isil has used two to ready ours
I think setting up a set can be done quickly, but others need to read through it too
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Unread 25 Dec 2014, 00:21   #131
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

FICO SK's please.
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Unread 25 Dec 2014, 11:11   #132
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Me and Isil has used two to ready ours
I think setting up a set can be done quickly, but others need to read through it too
ive used two to ready mine, you've used two to refuse to make changes, no?
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Unread 25 Dec 2014, 11:45   #133
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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ive used two to ready mine, you've used two to refuse to make changes, no?
Ive done plenty of changes.
You have only made FR better in yours
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Unread 25 Dec 2014, 12:09   #134
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

yes because they were good to start with
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Unread 25 Dec 2014, 12:31   #135
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Why not just make viper target FR t1 and DE t2, and change the FR accordingly?
Dump the WF and give pegs the same init?
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Unread 25 Dec 2014, 12:37   #136
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

no thanks, makes cath too good and the best defships are supposed to be out of roiding class
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Unread 25 Dec 2014, 12:38   #137
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

im not sure im gonna bother changing around on the zik DEs, so if a third person wants go put his stats on the betaserver then fine by me
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Unread 25 Dec 2014, 13:17   #138
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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no thanks, makes cath too good and the best defships are supposed to be out of roiding class
I dont see how that will make cath CO better, having more roid class ships fireing at them makes it worse?
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Unread 3 Jan 2015, 12:50   #139
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Paging Influence to thread #200677. Influence to 200677.
sorry I have been out over the past few weeks, kinda enjoying my last few days of 'PA-retirement'. Also, due to having been retired for a round my brain forgot how to interpret stats it seems so i could not say anything cool on the subject. Thank you for paging me tho.
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Unread 3 Jan 2015, 13:43   #140
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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sorry I have been out over the past few weeks, kinda enjoying my last few days of 'PA-retirement'. Also, due to having been retired for a round my brain forgot how to interpret stats it seems so i could not say anything cool on the subject. Thank you for paging me tho.
I was responding to:

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Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
i know where your coming from though, not so sure if we are a minority , but just the ones with not enough influence
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Unread 3 Jan 2015, 20:23   #141
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Zik still seems weak and only really has the Cutlass going for it. The Pirate is nice but it's off class. DE and CR are pretty weak, and this in turn affects their partners in Ter DE and Cat CR.
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Unread 3 Jan 2015, 20:38   #142
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

How is the Rogue not a good ship?

Yes Zik aren't the best race to begin with, but you got plenty of opportunities to steal yourself a good fico fleet and there's lots of options for faking imo.

As I said, I wasn't against changing the inits/targetting of the zik DE, but noone really made any big fuzz about it apart from one person.
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Unread 3 Jan 2015, 21:19   #143
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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How is the Rogue not a good ship?

Yes Zik aren't the best race to begin with, but you got plenty of opportunities to steal yourself a good fico fleet and there's lots of options for faking imo.
The Rogue's good indeed, it just doesn't make up for the rest of the fleet.

Quote:
As I said, I wasn't against changing the inits/targetting of the zik DE, but noone really made any big fuzz about it apart from one person.
I've seen numerous people make suggestions on changing Zik DE. Rather, find me one person that said Zik DE is good in its current state.
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Unread 3 Jan 2015, 21:20   #144
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Zik CR looks fine?

Rogue beats all BS in init and has decent AC/DC.
Pillager beats Xan FR init wise, loses from ETD FR
Marauder beats Zik DE init wise, loses from Terran DE.
Sure theres some Obvious ships you use to def vs Zik CR, like almost any attacking fleet) but then teaming up with Cath CR fixes that. Not all attacking fleets even have the option to bring EMP along.
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Unread 3 Jan 2015, 21:35   #145
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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The Rogue's good indeed, it just doesn't make up for the rest of the fleet.



I've seen numerous people make suggestions on changing Zik DE. Rather, find me one person that said Zik DE is good in its current state.
I proposed three options on what to do about zik de, hardly anyone cared either way. You can't come along complaining two weeks later. Even so, zik looks very playable to me, I'd strongly consider playing them if I do play.
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Unread 3 Jan 2015, 23:53   #146
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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I proposed three options on what to do about zik de, hardly anyone cared either way. You can't come along complaining two weeks later. Even so, zik looks very playable to me, I'd strongly consider playing them if I do play.
Pretty much everyone agreed Zik needed something. That included you yourself, I believe? There was just no strong preference for a specific change.
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Unread 4 Jan 2015, 02:58   #147
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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I proposed three options on what to do about zik de, hardly anyone cared either way. You can't come along complaining two weeks later. Even so, zik looks very playable to me, I'd strongly consider playing them if I do play.
Quote:
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Zik had one thing going for itself, and that was the Cutlass. Zik DE sucked, Zik CR sucked (are we just going to ignore the fact that it's the only fleet that has 3 ST ships of which only one is good?).
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Unread 4 Jan 2015, 10:12   #148
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

I'm not disagreeing about Zik DE being a poor roidfleet, but every roidingfleets can't be great. It's very strong defensively.

I think Zik CR will do just fine, yes the Marauder isn't great, but if you team with a cath who's got lots of roach that shouldn't be a huge problem.

You've also got the option to steal/covop some bs pods and do cutlass -rogue - pillager - pirate which to me looks like a strong setup.
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Unread 4 Jan 2015, 10:48   #149
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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I'm not disagreeing about Zik DE being a poor roidfleet, but every roidingfleets can't be great. It's very strong defensively.

I think Zik CR will do just fine, yes the Marauder isn't great, but if you team with a cath who's got lots of roach that shouldn't be a huge problem.

You've also got the option to steal/covop some bs pods and do cutlass -rogue - pillager - pirate which to me looks like a strong setup.
This is where you either dont understand the basics of what is good and what is bad in stats.
If NO DE FLEET COMBO TER/ZIK TER/TER ZIK/ZIK CANNOT WHATSOEVER STOP A XAN/ETD FR COMBO how can it be good defensively?

Everyone but you seem to have noticed this GIGANTIC flaw in these stats.
Its not better vs FI, CO, FR, DE or BS.
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Unread 4 Jan 2015, 10:52   #150
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Matter a fact, i dare you get what ever allie your into go for a DE setup and be sucsesfull with this
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