[Discuss] Race Specialisation

[Appocomaster]

This has come from a couple of other threads and I think r14 / 15 would be interesting with race specialisation.

This is how it'd work (or, a way it could work ).
After finishing _ALL_ the research tree (yes I know it'll take longer for xans, so they probably deserve a slightly better option than say cath), you get 2 new trees, which are mutally exclusive (i.e. you can only choose one).
One is combat related, one isn't. Obviously they'll all be like, 3 day researches.

Here's the current ideas: (mainly copied from other threads ).

Terran:
Non-combat wise, maybe something like reducing the cost of constructions by up to half, increasing the construction limit, and maybe knocking another tick or two off.
Another non combat option could be maybe increasing the ability to mine (i.e. say 3 researches which add the equilivent of 5 or 10 FCs).
The combat one, something like upgrading ship armour, OR (this is actually quite effective and probably easier to do?) upgrading roid + construction armour. say 10% 15% 20% or something.

Cathaar.

My origional idea was something to do with covert ops (say increase max stealth, drop covert op prices, etc) but I'm not sure if that's a strong idea. Say, increase max stealth to 100/105/110, and reduce covert op prices by 20% 30% 40%.

The combat one would be either increasing EMP damage, or coverting a % of EMP damage to kill damage (say increase EMP 20% 30% 40%, or turn 10% 15% 20% into kill damage). Again this would probably be harder to code (though I don't know?).

Xan obviously are going to take longer to get their special advantages.
I thought one option could be bringing back the military scan, though I don't think there's that many Xan planets that would use it . Increasing the unit distortion has been suggested, with maybe the 3rd research making a 100% distortion instead of 20%?
Combat wise, it's hard to say. I don't think it'd be too fair to increase firepower by much. Perhaps salvage when attacking? 10% 15% 20% of all killed ships? I know it doesn't sound a lot, but think about some of those bigger battles (I don't know how it'd function if there were more than 1 xan present in a battle - it'd be pretty abusable with 100 xans with 1 ship there so they can all leech 20% of the losses heh).

Zik firstly I'd want to enforce my 10% 'destruction rate' on - all non zik ships are reduced by 10% at the end of each combat (rounded down, so you can't actually loose a ship with only 9 there).

I'd want to see the ziks allowed to research up to 3 ships (probably pods heh), as their combat research, though maybe some sort of limit would be in order as to exactly how the 3 ships were selected. Maybe if they're all from one race?

TBH i can't think of a non combat option, and I doubt many people would choose it whatever it is... . Some sort of ship stealing covert op? Where you steal 2-3x the cost of resources in random ships?

[Vapula]

"finishing all the research tree"
well, the bigger HCT may be quite useless if you've small number of roids :-/

I don't like the 10% destruction rate idea... with JGP, it's rather difficult to steal ships as people recall if there is enough defence or flee if attack too strong...

Being able to build some other race's ships seem interesting... maybe making them twice the price but not limiting to 3 ships... Covert ops are also meant to be a strong point of Zikonian...

[Ultimate Newbie]

As i have said on a number of occasions; i am, in principle, against altering the ship stats in any shape, form or fashion, simply because of the nightmare of balacing* the ships would be. As it stands, it is already quite hard to achieve balance with the existing number of ships due simply to the huge number of relationships these ships have to others. By adding research, you effectively quadruple the number of relationships, as there isnt just Unenhanced v unenchanced, but also enhanced v enhanced, unenhanced v enhanced and enhanced v unenhanced. I have to say though, increasing armour on roids is a good idea i hadnt thought of.

As a part-time wannabe stat builder, i can tell you that as it stands balance* already complex enough.

I mentioned in another thread that the "non-combat" race bonus research for Terrans could be an increased ability to mine roids - eg, instead of needing to do Heavy Cargo Transfers 5 at 750 roids, Terrans may only need to do it at 1000 roids (or a certain %age increase on the number of roids they can handle with three increments that represent the three levels of researches etc).

As for xans, i was thinking that their cloaking could become prograssively more powerful - by (initially) reducing the effectiveness of Unit scans by increasing their inaccuracy - and the final research (which will take bloody ages being Xans remember) would be for unit scans to show 0 Xan ships. before you yell and scream about being overpowered, remember this will only happen at the very late stages of a round and spice the endgame up a little bit more with more people landing on small/massive def/incs.

As for the other races, bleh. i'm not a creative person .


*a relative term.

[Appocomaster]

Originally Posted by Vapula

"finishing all the research tree"
well, the bigger HCT may be quite useless if you've small number of roids :-/

I don't like the 10% destruction rate idea... with JGP, it's rather difficult to steal ships as people recall if there is enough defence or flee if attack too strong...

Being able to build some other race's ships seem interesting... maybe making them twice the price but not limiting to 3 ships... Covert ops are also meant to be a strong point of Zikonian...

I know the bigger HCT are useless for many planets, but this is to stop people from getting these special features too soon. Zik's running around being able to build any ships they want for half the round, it'll be worse than this round!

This round, ziks have by far the most value. The 10% rule would severely hurt them - and think about all the fun people would have suciding vs them to take out the ships (if people think this is too harsh on ziks who are sooo overpowered this round then it could be modified to have a 10% max, and less if the ships hitting are much smaller value wise).

It would make Zik more difficult to play, but tbh they were always meant to be a much harder race to play.

[Loz]

This idea is nice in theory, as I think more race specific features are a good idea - but it is silly to expect the whole tech tree to be completed before being able to do these researches.

At current, the entire tech tree takes approximately 2084 ticks to complete (and that's if you're constantly online to start as soon as one finishes - obviously I'm ignoring race specialisations and engineering).

With the new researches at the times you suggested it would take 2300 ticks to complete. This approximates to 13 and a half weeks. As a round lasts 10 weeks, this is pretty impossible. At the current round length it is impossible to complete the normal tech tree.

[Makhil]

these race specializations could be obtained through quests : no problem with finishing the tech tree or not and you can control at what time it will become available.

[Appocomaster]

Originally Posted by Loz

This idea is nice in theory, as I think more race specific features are a good idea - but it is silly to expect the whole tech tree to be completed before being able to do these researches.

At current, the entire tech tree takes approximately 2084 ticks to complete (and that's if you're constantly online to start as soon as one finishes - obviously I'm ignoring race specialisations and engineering).

With the new researches at the times you suggested it would take 2300 ticks to complete. This approximates to 13 and a half weeks. As a round lasts 10 weeks, this is pretty impossible. At the current round length it is impossible to complete the normal tech tree.

most people use at least some research labs and research priorities for a bit.
but you're probably right about it taking too long.

Originally Posted by Makhil

these race specializations could be obtained through quests : no problem with finishing the tech tree or not and you can control at what time it will become available.

yes, this is a possibility, if quests are coming in next round.
Either this or splitting the tech tree into 2:
the normal or "primary" tech tree, and the support or "secondary" tech tree (with n00b scientists etc ).
primary tech tree = ETA / Siege Weapons / Core resources / HCT's
secondary tech tree = Scans / infrastructure / covert ops, and takes 1.5-2x as long as it used to.
then, when you've finished the PRIMARY tech tree, you can research your planet's stuff with your bored scientists.

[Ron7684]

I think its all a good idea, the only thing would be the cathaar emp kill percent. some suggestions were to include that in the beginning as part of the emp code. but if they decide not to include that, the kill percent on emp is a great help. it stops people from massing podders that can only get emp'd and hoping they have enough.

The tech tree may take over 2k ticks to complete at bare minimum but most people keep research as 1st or 2nd priority until they're done the basics (eta, enough roids, and a construction). there are many useless researches though. for a mid size planet with around 1k roids. having to research 8k roid limit before going on can get very tedious and is just a waste. so i like the idea of the primary and secondary tech trees, but they must be though out fully as some research is crucial at the beginning (roid limits) but becomes useless in the end.

Perhaps salvage when attacking? 10% 15% 20% of all killed ships? I know it doesn't sound a lot, but think about some of those bigger battles (I don't know how it'd function if there were more than 1 xan present in a battle - it'd be pretty abusable with 100 xans with 1 ship there so they can all leech 20% of the losses heh).

If what you're saying is that each person gets 20% of the salvage, then you're forgetting how salvage works. What could happen is, all salvage value is calculated. Then maybe give 70% for the defenders to split normally. And the 30% left goes to the attackers where its divided by FLEET VALUE multiplied by the amount of salvage they have researched. A 1k value fleet sent for defence never recieves the same salvage as a 100k value fleet, it is the salvage over 101k and it is decided a certain amount of salvage for each value point. so a 100k fleet recieves 100x what the 1k fleet gets.

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by Appocomaster

Either this or splitting the tech tree into 2:

Rather than doing that, i'd do something more akin to a suggestion i made in this post or in more detail in this thread.

And, as you might recall, Infrstructure 1 needs to be done VERY early on (like the third research or so) particularly for Terrans with Construction on P1 - as they only take 4 ticks.

[noah02]

Think before we decide anything like this then needs to be a decision about shortening the tech tree at least as its just a chore clicking HCT again and again and again every 2 -3 daysfor what seems like the rest of the round :/

[Ron7684]

Originally Posted by noah02

Think before we decide anything like this then needs to be a decision about shortening the tech tree at least as its just a chore clicking HCT again and again and again every 2 -3 daysfor what seems like the rest of the round :/

Noah, as ultimate posted, there were suggestions to split the tech tree. There was another post somewhere (cba as to where) where splitting the HCT tree up was suggested. <1500 in primary and >1500 in secondary. Most players wont need to go into the secondary HCT tree so if we're going to put in another tree unlockable by finishing the primary tree. 8k roids shouldnt have to be researched before its done.

[furball]

I like the original idea, but am concerned that covert-ops are being used as 'advantages' for particular races. I wouldn't want them to become a focus of the game, they should be as they are now - an off-shoot but not overly important.

[rop1964]

personally, i like the original idea too, though at nearly 2300 tick to complete, the chance that anyone gain those ability is next to nil.but cathaar overpowered emp it s good , so is the kill%, would definely give the cathaar the breathing room they need. but i did came to a definition of races with extra ability in the new race design. i think they were quite good as they were attuned for each race. i shall get them and post them here for further debate. but giving more uniqueness to race through the tech tree is a great idea that i support.

[rop1964]

here the post i made a few days ago.. of course those are just ideas, they can be thinkered as needed ..

cathaar using emp , hate killing, loving peace and prosperity...
they d gain a bonus of 25% on firepower when defending at base.. (planetary generators transfering power to ships?!) +2 on research , +5% on ressource transfer , shielding tech (-10% on damage received)

xandrathis cunning/stealthy race all covert ops get a bonus of 10% on succes (using cloaking technology)
25% a scan of their planet get wrong or no info (cloaking the planet) -2 on production (building stealth ships is hard) fire first as they uncloak and surprise their ennemy (only if attacking)

terran warlike and proud +10% on mining , production time 2 tick faster, covert op security +5%, covert op agents -15% (paranoid race) slowly bulky ship (high init)

zikonian (nanorobotic lifeforms) +5% on mining, -15% on all covert op/security ,construction 10% faster,
research +5% (being nanorobots mean being computerised .. so faster and more efficient) -10% to armor and damage vs cathaar emp based weapons (electromagnetic pulse are bad to computer being robot)

[Paisley]

I quite like the idea of the extended tech tree for the different races

[rop1964]

furball.. i used covert op all the time in r13 and 14.. and i would do so in r15, if i join back.. though i m still undecided.. having suffered from the low bashing limit.. but that s another topic.. :-)

[The Real Arfy]

I like the general idea of "needing" to keep engineering priorities on #1 research and maintain 20% research labs for the entirety of the tech tree. Personally though, it would probably be impossible to implement rewards that are worthy. Sure, the ones that end the tree in good time must be rewarded with something worth giving up that Con/Res/Pro/Sec engineering and the huge amounts of resources it would effectively cost them, however, you don't want them to be so great that the less active guys are hindered too much.

So while its a good idea, IMO its a dead end.

[rop1964]

i , personally would prefer to use my engineers as i need them to, though keeping the research lab as high as posible is always a good idea. but the point is , if there s new tech, and it comes only at the end on the full tech tree, no one will have them.. as it take quite long , if not too long to get it done.