special/weird units

[simkin]

Having read suggestions for new races and such I thought it wouldn't be out of hand to think about special units.

The units so far can obviously be divided into three groups

A) win combat vs other ships
B) steal roids
C) kill structs (and annoy the hell outta someone)

I know A) is not as simple as i put it.. there are freezers, killers and stealers around. However, they direct their damage output directly at the enemy's ships to overcome them and in that way I hope everyone will agree they can be categorized into A).

Now I would like to suggest D) support ships.
My take on support ships is they should influence one's own ships in some positive way instead of doing something to the enemy. I know this might have a similar colouring as the suggested hero units, auras etc. I think, though, that this is different, I wouldn't want big HP or unit-experience. Keep those ships anonymous, that would be more like PA I feel (though I am n00b).

To continue: a couple units/ships to give you a feel for what the heck I have been talking about.

Cloaker
(this is a designation not a name=P)

everyone who has played starcraft will know the arbiter unit...

-distorts scan result of fleet scans (the last scan.. ) even more than the
allotted 20% ( ? ) error rate to what.. 40%? or even have some ships
show up as unknown on the scan?
-cloaks x% of the fleet's units during battle. cloaked units cannot be
harmed. I think only small vessels should be cloaked.. FI,CO?.. i know
imba maybe.. but this is just an idea right?
-cloaking/distorting only applies IF y% of the fleet consists of cloakers.
-more cloaker units should not raise the number of cloaked units
-ETA should be BS
-low hp/high cost
-maybe an extra research branch.
research step1: no scan distortion, 3% in-battle cloak
research step2: no scan distortion, 5% in-battle cloak
research step3: scan distortion, 8% in-battle cloak
-none of the cloaker units' boni apply to themselves IE they don't
get cloaked/their signature isnt distorted on fleet scan

This is just off the head. so the numbers are totally arbitrary but I hope the concept behind it is clear.
Ah.. no time to introduce the second unit I thought of the game I've been installing is done installing. Would like to hear what people think so flame away!

[simkin]

Backtracker

-reduces return time IF x% of fleet are backtracker units
-return hours should be reduced by -1/-2 hrs max
-low armor/high cost
-prolly extra research branch again
research step1: 20% of fleet have to be backtrackers for ETA bonus (1hr)
research step2: 15% of fleet have to be backtrackers for ETA bonus (1hr)
research step3: 10% of fleet have to be backtrackers for ETA bonus (2hrs)


This means IF x% of the fleet are backtrackers AFTER battle one has shorter return times of fleet. Maybe this should not be in-gal ~
For the attacked this means less ships actually attacking as these units should be weak and not do dmg. Or very little at most. Also attack ETA stays the same.
For the attacker it means less ships to actually fight with. The advantage would be, since there are only 3 fleets, that he has more fleet to act with as - say, return ETA -2 on one fleet would, at a total traveltime of 20, reduce that by 10% giving you an extra 1/10th of a fleet to act with...

Now I'm not sure if this would or wouldn't be an advantage but well.. statistically this would mean more attacks could be flown. Gotta pick targets with more care but more attacks...

All of these numbers, again, are totally arbitrary ^^

[XelNaga]

I think the idea is not that bad, but one of 2 things will happen:

A) The advantages overweight the disadvantages, every experienced player will have them.

B) The disadvantages overweight the advantages, only some unexperienced players will have them.

I'm actually quite happy with the way combat etc. works at the moment, so I don't feel there is need to introduce anything, but that's just my view.

[jerome]

i like the basic idea of it, as the game as it is, is bloody boring.

[Makhil]

That could be nice if each race had developped a support ship :

Terrans could indeed have Backtrackers
Cats could have Cloakers
Xans could have Shield Generators
Ziks could have Beam Accelerators (to improve init so as to fire before the pods)

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by simkin

Now I would like to suggest D) support ships.

This is a good area to explore, especially in conjunction with "Race specific Researches"

Cloaker
-distorts scan result of fleet scans (the last scan.. ) even more than the
allotted 20% ( ? ) error rate to what.. 40%? or even have some ships
show up as unknown on the scan?

This reminds me back in R8 or so when i suggested sending Jammer ships, as part of introducing some Electronic Warfare into PA, along with fleets in order to distort the then Military Scans - you could effectively deny the enemy information on the fleet that you have the mobile jammers in, but the other fleets would be clear and accurate - the idea was that players could just Jam a single fleet more effectively than jamming a whole planet and so on. The idea didnt take off, but i still like it . There is definately alot of potential for this type of ship - the more resources players are spending on (unarmed) ships, the less damage they are doing to the enemy however they are increasing the uncertainty of battle which could result in more battles and so on etc.

-cloaks x% of the fleet's units during battle.

This might be a little unfair for Xans, whose ships are already meant to be cloaked already - plus cloaking is meant to only affect Fleet Scans and thus by the time the fleet arrives at the planet it would have already been scanned...

cloaked units cannot be
harmed. I think only small vessels should be cloaked.. FI,CO?.. i know
imba maybe.. but this is just an idea right?

This is an extremely bad idea. Anyone who remembers playing R11 or R12, when Subverted ships were indestructable and their associated impact with Red Defence will know how destructive making ships invulnerable can be. I wouldnt suggest you pursued this line of thought at all.

All the rest of the stats you mentioned for the "Cloaker" is fine - however i wouldnt make it "BS" only - i think some lattitude for the stat builders would result in a balanced outcome.

Backtracker
-reduces return time IF x% of fleet are backtracker units

This is a pretty innovative idea, and i like it. Hyperactive planets would gain the most from the ship, however that's not neccesarily bad as it means less firepower for those top players compared to their normal fleets. I'm sure you mean 20/15/10% of the value of the fleet, not just numbers as for Terrans that could only be like 20 ships . It would make planning fleetcatching operations more difficult, as potential fleetcatchers would need to know 1) the amount of "Backtrackers" the attacker was sending, 2) the amount of fleet lost during battle, 3) the proportion of Backtrackers to Attacker's fleet upon the completion of battle, 4) the research of the Attacker in addition to the present launch/recall/return ETA.

Also, would Backtrackers work if a fleet is manually recalled?

Just as an aside, i would think that the last research dropping it to 2 hours back is exceptionally valuable - pushing up the %age back up to 20% would still definately make it viable (indeed, 2 hours return might be a little overpowered, as it would be impossible to fleetcatch FI/CO fleet without launching before the attacker lands, it would make FR/DE fleet need to be caught with FI/CO ships who launch just as the attacker lands, and BA/CR fleets can only be fleetcaught by FR/DE as they land (as opposed to now, when all fleets can be fleetcaught by ships of their own class or smaller).

Anyway its a great suggestion that might need more contemplating - dont let that discourage you though .

Originally Posted by Xelnaga

I think the idea is not that bad, but one of 2 things will happen:

That is the case for all suggestions regarding gameplay, and thus should be taken as a given. Though you are right to point it out...

Originally Posted by Makhil

Ziks could have Beam Accelerators (to improve init so as to fire before the pods)

That's a good idea if its tied into the "race specific research" idea - but for the sake of god please do not stuff with initiative levels for ships - the importance of initiative is frequently overlooked and it can make or break a set of stats.

Even if you wished to pursue with it, the amount of stealers (and i think it should only apply to stealers at the very most - not the conventional ships) is to only improve a small percentage (no more than 10% i would imagine - subject to testing etc) to fire before pods only (not other classes of ships). One of hte major balancing parts of the Zikonian race is that they trade ships for roids - if you start messing with that you can change the whole dynamic of the race; either making them impervious to loosing roids, or not cap enough pods in order to survive and thus get r00ted...

[furball]

I do like this backtracker idea, although the rest aren't really working for me. Messing with initiative levels is something I'm really not keen on.

[simkin]

This is an extremely bad idea. Anyone who remembers playing R11 or R12, when Subverted ships were indestructable and their associated impact with Red Defence will know how destructive making ships invulnerable can be. I wouldnt suggest you pursued this line of thought at all.

All the rest of the stats you mentioned for the "Cloaker" is fine - however i wouldnt make it "BS" only - i think some lattitude for the stat builders would result in a balanced outcome.

i meant the traveltime should be BS - classwise it should certainly come in several varieties. just to add some disadvantage to using those cloakers.

now i was thinking the cloaker only makes a fraction of the fleet invincible. just to add a little chaos to the whole fighting system because everything is so predictable. by not knowing which ships will be cloaked/invisible during the battle there would be some randomness added.
now another thing would be since there are initiative levels. let's say the cloaker unit is a DE. and it gets frozen by err spider? spider right? then of course after that initiative level/round the cloaker bonus doesn't apply anymore. so maybe it's not that bad?

Also, would Backtrackers work if a fleet is manually recalled?

hrm. well i'm no biggie in physics or inventing scifi stuff. i would put it like this though:

backtracker units are fragile ships that employ big.. solar sails? yes. solar sails. to collect energy for the whole purpose of building up some kind of improved warp bubble to shorten the return time.
each ship can only extend this bubble around a certain amount/mass of ship (yes value based calc would be better thanks for pointing that out).
also it takes time to charge up those energy accumulators so only after 8 hours would the bonus of the backtracker apply.

so i guess manual recall it would still work but only if travel time has been 8 ticks.

Just as an aside, i would think that the last research dropping it to 2 hours back is exceptionally valuable - pushing up the %age back up to 20% would still definately make it viable (indeed, 2 hours return might be a little overpowered, as it would be impossible to fleetcatch FI/CO fleet without launching before the attacker lands, it would make FR/DE fleet need to be caught with FI/CO ships who launch just as the attacker lands, and BA/CR fleets can only be fleetcaught by FR/DE as they land (as opposed to now, when all fleets can be fleetcaught by ships of their own class or smaller).

Yes, I hadn't thought of the ramifications involved with fleetcatching yet ^^

[Kaisto]

You need a possible countermeasure for every form of attack.

One could have ships with abilities to counter the attack bonuses. These could be made to work only in defence.