[Discuss]"Fake defend" -button

[Tietäjä]

As there is already an option to send in a fake attack, would it be possible to implement a "fake defend" button to it equally?

[ANdrode]

Originally Posted by Tietäjä

As there is already an option to send in a fake attack, would it be possible to implement a "fake defend" button to it equally?

I like it

Though it should be visible on the guy you're defending's overview. Sending an attack, and letting someone else send def would be a normal, i mean very nasty, tactic..

[Appocomaster]

Yes. Keep news entries the same (or, say in news entries but don't show this in news scans!).
Also, obviously show it on overview (and maybe gal status?) but not jumpgate probes.

[Wandows]

Originally Posted by ANdrode

I like it

Though it should be visible on the guy you're defending's overview. Sending an attack, and letting someone else send def would be a normal, i mean very nasty, tactic..

its not that hard to verify defending coords with your own alliance, if you don't know the defender, don't count on him/it.

Other then that, its a nice idea , and could be very handy idd (and annoying for the other side ^^)

[ChubbyChecker]

I agree.

Fake defences are used a hell of a lot more than fake attacks so there should be an option to have this.

[wakey]

Fake defences, like fake attacks should show up to everyone BUT the person sending as real. Otherwise its pointless from a tactical pov. I've seen instances of Fake defence happening this round from the attackers own alliance but with the lack of a fake defence option its only open to those who can be on right before landing to pull this gives the option to everyone and adds to the game tactically and makes it alot less predicatable

[jerome]

Showing fakes on galstatus (as in stating that they're fake) maybe the dumbest thing which can be implemented in a random round.

[ChubbyChecker]

ryzekiel has a point, perhaps it should only be shown on the target planet's Overview.

[cypher]

tbh inserting this in the game is silly, you might aswell remove the whole point of attacking, as attacking is hard enough... with the game of chicken atleast it's still fun to try. if you put in fake defend the defenders will ALWAYS win, which is quite frankly boring.

[Gate]

Originally Posted by cypher

tbh inserting this in the game is silly, you might aswell remove the whole point of attacking, as attacking is hard enough... with the game of chicken atleast it's still fun to try. if you put in fake defend the defenders will ALWAYS win, which is quite frankly boring.

I kinda agree with cypher, it makes it far easier to cover incs with fake defence. As it is, it requires people to be on to recall their def if it is fake. PA is supposed to be a game which rewards activity, though tehre are now features which make it more accessible (such as prelaunch that I agree with), I think this would ruin one of the fundamental aspects that rewards active players who jgp close to ticks. Plus it would increase ease of def and prevent roid exchange fluidity.

[Appocomaster]

Originally Posted by cypher

tbh inserting this in the game is silly, you might aswell remove the whole point of attacking, as attacking is hard enough...

I thought this round was known for being one of the most attacking orientated recently, and people thought it should be slightly more defensive again?


Generally, I don't see that it will give defence too much of an advantage. Fake defence is always meant to recall late anyway, and I doubt many people wait until xx:59:30 to jgp to see if all the defence is recalled. It might people slightly less reluctant to send fake defence, but it'll also encourage more attackers to land if they think it's fake defence, and as there's no way of changing missions midflight, even if people send the right defence on "suicide defences" they might set it as fake.

I do think that the person that it's aimed at should be able to see it's fake though.

[noah02]

Originally Posted by Appocomaster

I thought this round was known for being one of the most attacking orientated recently, and people thought it should be slightly more defensive again?

Yes it is far more attack orientated but the fact that there is 22+ planets per galaxy the eta 5 in gal defence has really knocked any chance of landing an attack out the window tbh coz they all fake defend each other like hell.
22 planets can create a lot of fakes.

[Cannon_Fodder]

Originally Posted by Appocomaster

I thought this round was known for being one of the most attacking orientated recently, and people thought it should be slightly more defensive again?


Generally, I don't see that it will give defence too much of an advantage. Fake defence is always meant to recall late anyway, and I doubt many people wait until xx:59:30 to jgp to see if all the defence is recalled. It might people slightly less reluctant to send fake defence, but it'll also encourage more attackers to land if they think it's fake defence, and as there's no way of changing missions midflight, even if people send the right defence on "suicide defences" they might set it as fake.

I do think that the person that it's aimed at should be able to see it's fake though.

I see five fleets defending, check units and numbers of defenders, they match what I hope them not to be and am forced to recall. Next round with this on, there could be 10 def fleets, and more than likely they will look real, how will this help me land? It wont. Unless fake def fleets pull half way through eta1 then no.

[Appocomaster]

Originally Posted by sniborp

I see five fleets defending, check units and numbers of defenders, they match what I hope them not to be and am forced to recall. Next round with this on, there could be 10 def fleets, and more than likely they will look real, how will this help me land? It wont. Unless fake def fleets pull half way through eta1 then no.

Er, we're not creating some special "fake fleet" that you can send and doctor the ETA of and number of ships.
It's literally just formalising a current game feature. Or do you think all the defence fleets you see defending against you are always real anyway?
I can't see how people are saying this will create more defence fleets in the game, because I can't see it forcing a huge increase in fake defence fleets. It's not creating ships, it's just giving people the ability to not recall instead of recalling at the last minute, so I don't see how it makes a huge difference.

[sale]

I LIKE THAT IDEA :P

perhaps there should also be a "AUTOMATED JGP - WHEN THERE IS DEF- RECALL SYSTEM"
:P
to be 1337 u still need the factor geeknes...
and if u really wanna fake def then put in some bs when a xan is attacking...
or better, send real def
sale~

[Cannon_Fodder]

Originally Posted by Appocomaster

Er, we're not creating some special "fake fleet" that you can send and doctor the ETA of and number of ships.
It's literally just formalising a current game feature. Or do you think all the defence fleets you see defending against you are always real anyway?
I can't see how people are saying this will create more defence fleets in the game, because I can't see it forcing a huge increase in fake defence fleets. It's not creating ships, it's just giving people the ability to not recall instead of recalling at the last minute, so I don't see how it makes a huge difference.

Ofc I know some fleets are fake, but me being a cath, chances are those 20k ships are corsair...


Make it pull half way through eta 1 and I'll agree with you.

[Neferti]

We should have both Fake Attack and Fake Defend, or we should have neither. Seems silly to have one and not the other...

[Cannon_Fodder]

Tbh fake attack is rather crap for most uses, it just means if your clear you still cant land....

[Neferti]

But what if you sent ships that aren't attack ships? Why would you want to land a fake fleet consisting of spiders or harpies or whatever?

[Cannon_Fodder]

To kill structures/ships?

In 99% of cases, the question is why would you send a fake attack anyway...

[Appocomaster]

I think fake attacks were added so that the alliances could have attacks and not have to be around to pull them.
Tbh, I think that if next round is going to be in a similar style to this, a fake defence fleet could redress the balance slightly.

[Neferti]

Slightly is good.

And sniborp, surely you know that the purpose of a fake attack is to draw defense, to give other (real) waves more chance of getting through?

[Banned]

Originally Posted by Tietäjä

As there is already an option to send in a fake attack, would it be possible to implement a "fake defend" button to it equally?

I heartily concur.

See also this thread.

[noah02]

Has anyone actually used fake attack?
I havent and never will :/

[Kargool]

I dont think fake defend should be implemented. Its allready being done so I really dont see the need for having a possiblitiy to send fake def. It smells abuse to me. All thoose noobs who isnt active at nights or in the weekend will wake up roided and their galmates claiming; but we saw you were covered. A bit NO from me on this.

[Banned]

Originally Posted by noah02

Has anyone actually used fake attack?
I havent and never will :/

I use it plenty. Whenever I JGP I use fake attack and prelaunch +11. The different color helps me to not recall the wrong fleet

[Cannon_Fodder]

Originally Posted by Neferti

Slightly is good.

And sniborp, surely you know that the purpose of a fake attack is to draw defense, to give other (real) waves more chance of getting through?

If you dont have enough (real) waves to cover a target you don't deserve to roid him.


Please don't flame me for this crap I'm not in the best of conditions...

[Neferti]

You have some odd ideas about how to play this game...

[Cannon_Fodder]

Maybe... but then I am doing rather well...


Edit: /me looks at furball and smiles...

[furball]

Not sure why you're looking at me, even if my Roach-only fleet is the exception rather than the rule.

Fake defence is something I'm not especially keen on, to be honest. An option for it just makes it too easy to use, unless it recalls at eta 1 00:30. I could accept that. But fake defence a la fake attacks =

As for using fake attacks, they're great as part of an alliance attack, slightly pointless on their own though.

[Cannon_Fodder]

Look at gal overview and see

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by noah02

Has anyone actually used fake attack?
I havent and never will :/

i used it for the first time this round. i got such a shock that it was orange!!

i thought i had broken something...

[ChubbyChecker]

Fake attacks are orange? Cool.

[coffee-]

I think having the option to fake defend would be nice.

I dont think for me personally I'd use it, but people could choose whether, or whether or not they are suited to use this tactic or not.

[Makhil]

fake attacks are great for people attacking alone too. You send 2 fleets with similar amount of ships, same eta, landing 1 tick apart... your target needs to cover both... increases your chances of landing. Itt seems so obvious that i feel weird having to point it out. of course defers can send 1real and 1 fake def... now that becomes interesting but I understand people bashing small planets don't need to fake anything
For people to send fake def, they'll need a fleet slot and enough ships to look like a real def with the correct eta... the 'fake def' button won't change that, and as it has been said : you don't wait 10 sec before the landing tick to recall an attack, you usually do that just before eta1 (you have 4 ticks to make a decision weither the def is real or fake, using units, newsies etc...). The defenderer will always have the edge as he only needs to press the recall button while the attacker needs to do a jgp, load the mission page and click recall.

[barney]

the problem would be that there is someway to figure out if an attack is fake (using FA scans), it is hardly fair to introduce fake defences, because as you have stated abouve there seams to be no happy way to find out they are fake. with these huge galaxys attacking is already hard enough, (unless you have thang for suicide). this would only make attacking more difficult and lessent her amount of roids changing hands.

not including it as an official feature doesnt rule out its use as a tactic, it just means to use it you have to be o/l.

i too have never used fake attack, i simply launch a real atack and pull it at eta 1. my solution to this would be to remove fakes ALLTOGETHER, because there is no way to implement fake def fairly that gives the attacker a chance. after all it is the defender that has not been covered properly, it is them that should take the risk from fake defences

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by barney

the problem would be that there is someway to figure out if an attack is fake (using FA scans), it is hardly fair to introduce fake defences, because as you have stated abouve there seams to be no happy way to find out they are fake.

The differences between fake attacks and fake defence is that fake attacks typically tend to be real attack fleets that are launched but have no intention of landing.

Fake defence fleets are probably scrambled stuff slapped together with one ship to make it the right ETA which are then sent to target - their composition isnt likely to be helpful (or even harmful if there is a zik attacking - sigh, stealing ) but need to be recalled before the fleets land.

But ih ave to agree with the stagnation argument. In principle, PA is more fun with the free(er) exchange of roids than without. But, as a DC, i'd love to have alot more fleets available to defend people with .

[Appocomaster]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

The differences between fake attacks and fake defence is that fake attacks typically tend to be real attack fleets that are launched but have no intention of landing.

Fake defence fleets are probably scrambled stuff slapped together with one ship to make it the right ETA which are then sent to target - their composition isnt likely to be helpful (or even harmful if there is a zik attacking - sigh, stealing ) but need to be recalled before the fleets land.

But ih ave to agree with the stagnation argument. In principle, PA is more fun with the free(er) exchange of roids than without. But, as a DC, i'd love to have alot more fleets available to defend people with .

Fake defence fleets aren't generally used except in emergencies. As a DC, surely you'd know this? You run the risk of sending off ships that will be useful later by using them as fakes now, this is why they're not often used in alliance defences anyway.
How about changing the fleet analysis scan.
Anyone can fleet analysis anyone else. If they're not attacking you, you see the current missions (but NOT co-ords or ETAs) of all their fleets. Otherwise, you either see as normal, or as normal + the missions of the other fleets. This means it is still possible to hide fake attack / defence fleets (by making sure you have more than one attack / defence fleet around), but it'd still show the possibility.

[Ultimate Newbie]

Actually, i send fake fleets first, as people just assume that they are real. the later the night is, the more likely the fleet is real.

mind you, i think i am rare in that regard. and it kinda falls down when people leave, when they still have slots/useful ships, and dont tell me before they go .

Yes, i am a nasty DC

[cypher]

Fake defence fleets just rewards inactivity WAY too much and this game has turned way too noob-friendly as it is. A high rank has nothing to do with Skill or whatever anymore. There really is no need to make it even easier.

As has been said fake defence in these games with HUGE galaxies is just too impossible it's unfair as anyone leaving the house can send some ships then making it very easy to defend as they don't have to check it. It basically makes the wellknown game of "chicken" impossible which in my honest opinion is a shame. the option of fake attack is silly enough as people don't really use it and if people don't show the activity in recalling their fleets if there is defence i don't think they really deserve to give the targets the hassle of having to send defence.
What happened to this game where you HAD to be active if you wanted to do well? Further i can't see any reason besides making it easy for inactive people and harder for active people to implement this option.

[Ultimate Newbie]

What could be an interesting compromise is having the proposed 4th in-gal only fleet slot unable to launch fake defence (or attack for that matter as its only in-gal). That way, anyone who wants to defend in-gal with a fake fleet is going to have to sacrifice one of their universal fleets to do so. Futher, if you are just leaving your in-gal slot open to defend with the other three out, and then you want to send in-gal fake def you would be unable to do so.

Just a thought, anyway.

[cypher]

and you suggest adding another fleetslot while we ALREADY get defence way too easily ingal with the high number of planets in 1 galaxy?

[ChubbyChecker]

If there was a 4th fleet slot I would suggest making it only possible to send in-cluster defence, not galaxy. And not in-cluster attack either. Perhaps also make it so that it is impossible to defend alliance mates in-cluster with this 4th fleet slot. This would hopefully make cluster alliances active again. Although most people would probably just use this fleet slot to put their vulnerable ships in pre-launch when they get attacked. I know I would.

Perhaps also make it so that you have to research this slot. After Hypergate, taking 96 hours.

As cypher says a 4th fleet slot for in-galaxy defence would be too powerful. There already is enough incentive for gal mates to cooperate. And if your gal mates don't cooperate then talk to the hand cos the face ain't listening

[barney]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

What could be an interesting compromise is having the proposed 4th in-gal only fleet slot unable to launch fake defence (or attack for that matter as its only in-gal). That way, anyone who wants to defend in-gal with a fake fleet is going to have to sacrifice one of their universal fleets to do so. Futher, if you are just leaving your in-gal slot open to defend with the other three out, and then you want to send in-gal fake def you would be unable to do so.

Just a thought, anyway.

tbh no, i cant see how an extra ingal fleet slot would fail to stop more roids changing hands, and a fake defence button is gonna stop the same thing. this is a horrible idea that should be abandoned now

[ANdrode]

Originally Posted by barney

tbh no, i cant see how an extra ingal fleet slot would fail to stop more roids changing hands, and a fake defence button is gonna stop the same thing. this is a horrible idea that should be abandoned now

I just figured an implenmentation i agree with..
When you say prelaunch a fleet to 'fake defend', it it will show up as defending until tick 4. After that it would take 1 turn to return.

The return would be automatic.

This way people need to jpg later, if they want to be sure it's real def.
Also: you slow down the spreading of roids a bit, because the average attack takes longer (failed attack takes longer => avg attack = landing + failed att's => longer)

[Gary]

Originally Posted by barney

tbh no, i cant see how an extra ingal fleet slot would fail to stop more roids changing hands, and a fake defence button is gonna stop the same thing. this is a horrible idea that should be abandoned now

I have to agree with this. There have been countless number of times this round when I had the gut instinct that the defence was fake, but couldn't land as that would entail lossing all my CR's IF I was wrong. From what I gather from these boards, we are looking for more battles, not less. Thus, I dont see how a fake defence button would encourage this. Myself (as a defender of galaxy mates) already have a great advantage due to the pre launch system, where i can pre set and go out, without having to make plans to return to launch. Lets just leave it at that. There is no real need for a fake defence button.


Edit - Just wanted to say that if there is fake defence already, then there is also no need for a button to formalise this..

[Neferti]

But there are fake attacks which are formalised by a 'button'.

If we don't get 'fake defend' then 'fake attack' should be removed. To do otherwise would be somewhat illogical, no?

[Gary]

Originally Posted by Neferti

But there are fake attacks which are formalised by a 'button'.

If we don't get 'fake defend' then 'fake attack' should be removed. To do otherwise would be somewhat illogical, no?

Fake attack button is used when you want to attack but have no intention of landing (I know, who would do that?!? But bear with me), thus has some kind of purpose. I read in another thread that they use the different colour so they dont pull the wrong fleet. However odd, thats a purpose.

Whats the purpose of formalising fake defence? Well I guess the same logic applies, but why introduce something just because its logical according to another feature of the game? To me thats illogical, for there has been no compelling argument made that a fake defence button will make PA a better game.

[Loz]

Good fake defence will pull about 5 minutes before the attacker lands, and a brave attacker will be there to see if the def is pulled, and there is still a chance to land it - but if there is a fake defence mission, there will be no need for defenders to pull early, meaning even the brave attackers will end up recalling.

I agree there should be more incentive to send defence fleets, and maybe make attacking a bit less easy, but let's not make it impossible.

[Gate]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

Actually, i send fake fleets first, as people just assume that they are real. the later the night is, the more likely the fleet is real.

And I did the same when I knew a tough night was coming up. Though one guy flat out refused to fake his 2k peacekeepers ot me one night, and decided to send real. And so when the next wave of BS launched, I got roided because the attacker assumed def was fake, and he was right.

As for fake defence, I got roided the other day because someone sent me def that died. Unfortunately, he was going offline and so I allowed him to recall at eta4. The attacker rescanned, decided it was worth it and landed. I've had similar occurances before and with a fake defence button, I would be perfectly safe.

This is particularly important in FI attacks when sentinel def gets pulled close to landing etc, it would just make attacking too difficult IMO.