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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 11:39   #151
lokken
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
And at the same time most people whom claim benifits will only be getting paid back the money their parents have paid into the system in the first place. So its swings and roundabouts
Actually education benefits lead to people generally getting good qualifications which lead to better salaries and thus, more taxes for the state. So getting student benefit is entirely different. So as long as Furyous completes his course, I don't see why there is a problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
We now live in a society of 'latch key kids'..etc
I enjoyed this section of your post, as it's clear if nothing else, you have at least been observant.

As for the dole, I entirely agree with T&F that it's pretty much an anti-rebellion tactic (if we withdrew benefits, the unrest would be massive) and certainly a useful way to clear the conscience of the middle class. The whole point of it is that it doesn't unite people against the state, because it satisfies people sufficiently to be entitled to this money, when infact it improves life very little. What I would suggest however, is that there is insufficient choice out there to make the dole work as it's theoretically meant to instead of being what it really is, which is pretty much a bribe. I think it's a fundamentally good thing we have the payment, it's just other aspects of society that we need to work on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furyous
People have proven again and again that a poor childhood does not prevent you from being extremely successful in life
This is true for the extremely talented and determined and is very much an exception to the rule. The point I think that is trying to be made is that while choices might have improved for the 'working class', there is still a massive disparity in choice between the middle classes of say, Surrey and this group, let alone to the very top of society. You are blaming people for not taking choices that while they do exist for a lot of people are realistically not that open to them. Fair enough on people who realistically thought they had the choice but passed it up but I don't think that's the case with anywhere near the majority.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T&F
"Get a job, do as your told and it will all be OK." Well I look around and I say that is not good enough.
While I don't necessarily get T&F's methodology and his views on property (and don't wish to discuss the nature of property as it doesn't entertain me a great deal), I don't see how this is particularly wrong as it were.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 11:39   #152
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Of course not. Because the land would be managed by everyone. If they agree to this then knock yourself out.
So who gets to decide what happens to which bits of land? Can't I just get my own bit of land to decide what happens with?
Quote:
Well, presumably that wouldn't be the case in this hypothetically different society. But there's nothing wrong with trade or the division of labour, that's something that predates capitalism and no doubt will outlast capitalism by billions of years.
I was thinking more of the changeover and immediate aftermath, which is obviously the bit we'll be dealing with first of all.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 11:48   #153
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Not so. Many people who claim benefits, certainly those who claim them extensively, are often born into crippling poverty in the first place.
So being born into crippling poverty means that those peoples families have never made a contribution to the country. Poverty does not mean you arent working or paying your taxes/NI. The section of society your talking about arent your norm, its the section we now probally consider 'chavs' whom abuse the system with their hundreds of kids and the massive amount of handouts they get because of that and the large rent/morgage free houses in nice areas. It seems to be the norm because the media decides to portray it that way.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 11:48   #154
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
We....

Now Its not just working practices that bring about this and not all kids that end up like this as some parents have the ability to actually be a parent and work so are able to give the kids the attention they need, discapline them and instil some social awareness into them but it does play a major part and its something thats hekping undermine any improvements to society that have been made.
Thanks for the reply Wakey. I can see the reasoning and I see it happen in reality, but as you say in the last paragraph there, all these consequences need not happen. Speaking from such a family background, I'd consider that it can have no/few negative consequences for the children. In fact it can be positive, in that it liberates childeren from dependance on their parents. It's down to the attitude of the child to the situation, the quality of care they receive while they are not at school and parents not at home, and how well the parents use the time that they do have available to spend with their children.

To approach the issue from another angle: I currently work evenings and nights for a social housing organisation, and have to deal with anti social behavour complaints very frequently. Around half of these complaints are about the children of our tenants, and 90% of those households have 1 or 2 parents out of work. Yet they still seem to have failed to bring up their children 'properly'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
oh and Furyous I find your views a little strange and hypocriical tbh. Your sitting there acting as if you dont like state handout yet you yourself are currently receiving them and seem to have no problem about yourself and others getting them even though you openly admit most just piss about. The handout i'm talking about is your further and higher education. No matter what admin fees the college charges you or the Top-Up fees and such like your charged the amount your paying is a FRACTION of the actual amount that putting you through college and uni is costing.
This is rather different. I do know the breakdown of who pays what towards my education, and over 50% is actually privately raised by the college. But yes, this is still a benefit that I receive. I could not afford to attend University without this benefit, nor could my parents afford it very easily (and nor should it be their sole responsibility). This support is there to educate the workforce and advance the economy. The extra taxes that I pay as a result of that education should very quickly repay the cost. For the government, this support is an investment towards a future return. I don't see much scope for financial return to NI handouts. Believe it or not, I am a strong believer in equality of opportunity, and believe that further education should be available to all (subject to merit). I have no quibble with those who contribute nothing towards their education because they cannot afford it.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 11:51   #155
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
So being born into crippling poverty means that those peoples families have never made a contribution to the country. Poverty does not mean you arent working or paying your taxes/NI. The section of society your talking about arent your norm, its the section we now probally consider 'chavs' whom abuse the system with their hundreds of kids and the massive amount of handouts they get because of that and the large rent/morgage free houses in nice areas. It seems to be the norm because the media decides to portray it that way.
What? I'm talking about people whose parents were long-term unemployed and who gained more from the "system" than they put in. Further while many parents would put their kids through college, not that many support them financially when they're 30 and 40 years old.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 11:53   #156
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
So who gets to decide what happens to which bits of land? Can't I just get my own bit of land to decide what happens with?
These are political questions which aren't going to be projected out of the mind of a great thinker. As I say, it would vary from instance to instance. If you're asking me what I'd want then I'd divide up residential land from the rest and then have some sort of local authority style system of division. Clearly that's going to be based on different features - local authorities in London would be smaller than they would be in North America (in terms of geographical space).

Quote:
I was thinking more of the changeover and immediate aftermath, which is obviously the bit we'll be dealing with first of all.
Well, that's going to be fairly difficult and I suspect (/would hope) there would be a fairly large transfer of skills / "value" from North to South, perhaps to "right wrongs" but more realistically to try and even out development. There's also going to be a fair amount of petty squabbling in terms of who gets what, but these things would happen over decades, not just one big punch up.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 11:54   #157
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Everything comes from the land at some point (well, in a sense), but I don't see why that matters. You can keep the products of anything you make..
But you dont really believe this. With relatively few exceptions, value is created by the mind rather than the body - its not about the average workers in factories building cars, its about the people who was first able to invent the automobile and design the car-making process. Its not about Joe the working class electrician hacking together a television using methods he was taught in college - its about the visionaries who discovered the science and engineering to allow televisions to be created in the first place. The 'right to own anything you make' is almost worthless without the right to own the intellectual property which gives the raw materials their value, and you oppose all forms of patents/trademarks etc. Youre still fundamentally basing your attitude towards property on the (false) labour theory of value.

Pretty much the same comments apply to land. Theres nothing magical about land that makes those who have it superhuman - the Africans have a lot of land, but they arent really going anywhere. Land is only valuable if you have the intelligence and ability to do something value-producing with it, and its obscene to demand that someone prostrate himself before the rest of society in order to receive their 'permission' to implement his vision for a particular piece of land. If I design a prototype hoverboard and want to start mass-production, I should not need to beg to your 'local authority' in order to do this.

Last edited by Nodrog; 22 Jun 2006 at 12:05.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 12:06   #158
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by T&F
We live in a relatively free country, but I demand more, its called progress.
Progress is building on what has already been achieved. What you seem to want calls for sweeping changes at the most fundamental levels. This is revolution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T&F
You may well consider yourself free, last time I checked you didn't speak for everyone though. Its pure selfishness to say "I think I'm free so sod everyone else."
It is quite a deal more selfish to believe society should change radically to suit a minority of malcontents. Especially when you have been afforded the right to leave the relative comforts of your capitalist nation and join the fight for Socialism in, say, Cuba. Or China.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T&F
I would say that well over 50% of the jobs in the country serve no purpose. Incentive can be derived inother ways aside from bribery or compulsion. Of course if no body did anything society would be crippled, I am not suggesting that we remove social responsibility, simply that there is a large difference between workign to improve society and working in some soulless, pointless service sector drudgery.
This is quite a high standard you are setting for people. Many previous attempts at socialist governance have had to employ very unsavoury methods to ensure the continuation of production and wealth generation. There has also been widespread, systemic corruption made vastly worse by an absence of accountability. I have found that many socialist preachers (differentiated from rational socialists*) place far too much faith in their fellow man. There is no historical evidence to suggest we, as a race, are even capable of working, not for ourselves, but for the aggrandishment of our society.


* People who's belief in socialism is tempered by a realistic approach to the motivation of man.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 12:07   #159
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
These are political questions which aren't going to be projected out of the mind of a great thinker. As I say, it would vary from instance to instance. If you're asking me what I'd want then I'd divide up residential land from the rest and then have some sort of local authority style system of division. Clearly that's going to be based on different features - local authorities in London would be smaller than they would be in North America (in terms of geographical space).
Let's say I decide that I really want my own piece of land. I'm going to demand that I get it or else I'll refuse to go along with any other proposition. What will you (collectively) do?
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 12:19   #160
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
The 'right to own anything you make' is almost worthless without the right to own the intellectual property.
Oh well, sux to be you. You can "own" intellectual property in the sense that you can enjoy it's fruits. I just don't believe you can have the exclusive rights to that idea to the point where armed men can violently attack someone who has a similar idea. The idea you should be able to do this is a very statist idea and is explicitly meant to be a social contract.

Quote:
Youre still fundamentally basing your attitude towards property on the (false) labour theory of value.
Well, even if human progress stopped tomorrow, clearly it's ridiculous to say land would become valueless - we (as a species) already have collective skills to refine resources / "give things value" in your language.
Quote:
Land is only valuable if you have the intelligence and ability to do something value-producing with it
No. Land has value anyway. Sure, it has dramatically less value if you can't do anything "value producing" with it, but it still has some value because human beings need space.

Can you point at any group of people (who aren't seriously mentally ill or whatnot) who don't have the intelligence / ability to do something with land? Sure, most cannot make a semiconductor factory, but I'm pretty 99% of humanity (given time) could grow vegetables or whatever. You're positing two types of people : "creators" and the rest of the "herd" who are passive to the point of non-activity.

Quote:
If I design a prototype hoverboard and want to start mass-production, I should not need to beg before your 'local authority' in order to do this
Well, I'd imagine there would be numerous groups with differing interests. The idea is to have a diversity of power groups. The same petulant argument about why should I have to beg to a bunch of venture capitalists to make my hoverboard? Why can't I just have stuff for free?!
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBG
Let's say I decide that I really want my own piece of land. I'm going to demand that I get it or else I'll refuse to go along with any other proposition. What will you (collectively) do?
This depends on whether the whole world is in the same state. I am not talking about one centralised government, more tens of thousands of competing interest groups. What their responses would be would be up to them.

Now, if you're talking about having "land" in the sense of a house then sure, I'd say you're entitled to that. If you're talking about 8000 acres then you're probably not "entitled" to that, and if you can't persuade anyone you should have it then the same thing would happen as now - you'd probably be some sort of outcast. You might be one of those tramps on the trains, or you might become a violent criminal (one would hope not). The devil is in the details though, so it'd really depend.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 12:20   #161
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I don't think you've understood what I was saying. I believe I am your equal. This does not mean I am the same as you, or that you and I are equally as good at a range of activities. No doubt your abilities in many areas outstrip my own but I still see us as equals. Because equality is a moral position.


Speak for yourself. When I work hard / do something it's to make my life better. I don't give a shit if I'm "winning" against someone else. Quite frankly my penis is not so small that all my motivation is "versus" someone else.


Yeah, I'm going to need some evidence for the above as it sounds fairly ridiculous.

With respect, what do you know about Marxism? Where does "marxism" say everyone should be paid equal?
You may believe your my equal and I may believe i'm your equal but the chances are we arent viewed as equals by the masses. Our wealth, job, education, experiances, possesions ect ect all play a part in deciding our social standing.

And I didnt say anything about beating someone, its not about beating each other but as you said making our life better. Society however generally rewards success and our social standing is somewhat a measure of success. The higher your social standing the easier your life generally becomes

As for Marism, one of the core principles is equality. In society one of the elements that brings about the most inequality is money. For people to be treated equal they have to also receive equal otherwise your immeditaly making the person receiving less a second class citizen
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 12:31   #162
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
This depends on whether the whole world is in the same state. I am not talking about one centralised government, more tens of thousands of competing interest groups. What their responses would be would be up to them.
My god man but the universe would end before you'd get them to decide on anything.

Quote:
Now, if you're talking about having "land" in the sense of a house then sure, I'd say you're entitled to that. If you're talking about 8000 acres then you're probably not "entitled" to that, and if you can't persuade anyone you should have it then the same thing would happen as now - you'd probably be some sort of outcast. You might be one of those tramps on the trains, or you might become a violent criminal (one would hope not). The devil is in the details though, so it'd really depend.
I go along one day to general council meeting day or whatever and I say "I've discovered how to make cold fusion work. Give me and my descendants 8000 acres in perpetuity and I'll tell you how." Now even given the fact that someone else would probably come up with the idea some years down the line, and be more willing to share it, should you give me and my descendants the land I ask for? The benefits for even a few years would almost certainly outweigh the cost of whatever 8000 acres I wanted.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 12:31   #163
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
You may believe your my equal and I may believe i'm your equal but the chances are we arent viewed as equals by the masses. Our wealth, job, education, experiances, possesions ect ect all play a part in deciding our social standing.
Yeah, that's my point. Equality is a social construct, and how people view you isn't actually what defines humanity.

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As for Marism, one of the core principles is equality. In society one of the elements that brings about the most inequality is money.
In a capitalist society, yes. My point is that this isn't a given.
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For people to be treated equal they have to also receive equal otherwise your immeditaly making the person receiving less a second class citizen
Hardly. Some people require different incomes for different needs (e.g. different family sizes). Even now (in a capitalist system) I'm not sure this is true. Having more or less money than someone does not "automatically make them a second class citizen". Bill Gates earns more money than the Queen but I'm not sure it would be logical to make her a second class citizen.

The point is no aspect of Marxism says "people should be paid the same". That's a rather crude simplificaiton people often make who have actually read 0 actual Marx. Which is fair enough, it's fairly boring stuff and I'm not sure why anyone would. But then at least let's not go round saying "Marxism is about x" when that's probably not the case.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 12:36   #164
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
My god man but the universe would end before you'd get them to decide on anything.
I'm not suggesting we'd need a unanimous vote dude. To use a capitalist analogy : There is more than one bank, and if one bank turns you down, there's a chance that others might say yes.
Quote:
I go along one day to general council meeting day or whatever and I say "I've discovered how to make cold fusion work. Give me and my descendants 8000 acres in perpetuity and I'll tell you how."
I'd personally tell you to get stuffed even if I believed you. I suspect not everyone would be so stubborn but hey I'm not saying I should be ruler of the Earth.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 12:39   #165
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
Actually education benefits lead to people generally getting good qualifications which lead to better salaries and thus, more taxes for the state. So getting student benefit is entirely different. So as long as Furyous completes his course, I don't see why there is a problem.
In theory yes but I don't think that the case. Qualifications are being devalued by the sheer number of people whom are getting them. The percentage of people passing GCSE's are increasing every year, the amount of these people whom go onto college to take A-Levels and the percetange of people passing is increasing and the amount of people going to uni and the percetage passing is increasing.

As such getting your degree no longer opens doors the way it used to and it doesnt ensure your better paid like it used to. So just because Furyous completes his course doesnt mean he will be paying more tax than if he hadnt bothered.

The 'education' benifits basically provide the same benifit the JSA does, this being it tries to improve your chances of getting a suitable and better paid job.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 12:42   #166
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I'm not suggesting we'd need a unanimous vote dude. To use a capitalist analogy : There is more than one bank, and if one bank turns you down, there's a chance that others might say yes.
Yeah dude but banks generally have the money they're lending to you. Who has the land? Some specific interest groups? If so which ones? All interest groups? Who gets to decide?

Quote:
I'd personally tell you to get stuffed even if I believed you. I suspect not everyone would be so stubborn but hey I'm not saying I should be ruler of the Earth.
Presumably you could take the land back if I was lying. That'd be a fairly simple contractual obligation. My point more concerned whether or not it'd actually be possible. Would that demand effectively be demanding that someone sell themselves into slavery? Moreover would I perhaps be able to demand something different, say, all the hammers?
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 12:49   #167
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Yeah dude but banks generally have the money they're lending to you. Who has the land? Some specific interest groups? If so which ones? All interest groups?
I would imagine over time, people would control different pockets of land based on a number of things. For instance, my neighbourhood goes over to the Danteism next week. There would be people's home ("private" property for want of a better term) and a bunch of communal land. As a community we'd need to decide who controlled what. There's quite a lot of Black Christians and it seems reasonable they'd have their own personal space for a church. There are quite a few young people, maybe some sort of play area. Perhaps after a few months the black Christians agree to share their space with the relatively small number of black Muslims. Who knows. I'm not saying that we'd get to a post-argument society, there'd be quite a lot of to'ing and fro'ing.

Quote:
My point more concerned whether or not it'd actually be possible.
Anything's possible if people want it. It'd be silly to say there'd be a constitution we'd never change because ultimatley a bunch of guys with guns can do what they want.
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Would that demand effectively be demanding that someone sell themselves into slavery?
I would say yes, but let's face it we could make slavery legal (in a modern liberal society) if the need was pressing enough. I'd hope if someone (today) offered cold fusion in exchange for a thousand slaves they'd be told to get stuffed because we have ingrained respect / love of liberty. I'd hope the same thing would develop in terms of land co-ownership.
Quote:
Moreover would I perhaps be able to demand something different, say, all the hammers?
Again, we could probably discuss this and see if it was possible. I don't see how that'd be practible, I might refuse to hand over my hammer (if I had one in my possession).
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 12:51   #168
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Well in terms of revolution, perhaps that is what I am talking about, but you should think of revolution in the same context of the emnacipation of women and slaves rather than the French or Russian revolutions. Revolutions of consciousness. I would of course build on what has gone before.
What you're talking about has bigger and more widespread consequences than enfranchisement.

Quote:
Wehn you say a minority of malcontents are you referring to the hundreds of millions of starving people throughout the world, the billions of people working in poorly rewarded and unfulfilling jobs, or the vast majority of peoepl who yearn to be free?
It's certainly a minority in the UK (and the West generally). It is not insignificant, but certainly a minority.

Quote:
I am not sure what you mean when you suggest there have been attempts at socialism, socialism is international of course if we look at some nations which have strived to extricate themselves from the imperialist system we see a pattern of then getting flattened.
The idea that socialiam must be truly international to work is a clever one. It also conveniently serves as an excuse why any attempts at national socialism have failed miserably. Talk about not wanting to give people choice, even those who live thousands of miles away who you will never meet.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 13:01   #169
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I would imagine over time, people would control different pockets of land based on a number of things. For instance, my neighbourhood goes over to the Danteism next week. There would be people's home ("private" property for want of a better term) and a bunch of communal land. As a community we'd need to decide who controlled what. There's quite a lot of Black Christians and it seems reasonable they'd have their own personal space for a church. There are quite a few young people, maybe some sort of play area. Perhaps after a few months the black Christians agree to share their space with the relatively small number of black Muslims. Who knows. I'm not saying that we'd get to a post-argument society, there'd be quite a lot of to'ing and fro'ing.
Well there would be some instant problems. Land redistribution would have to happen at the start and this would need to be a global thing.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 13:02   #170
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by T&F
Well in terms of revolution, perhaps that is what I am talking about, but you should think of revolution in the same context of the emnacipation of women and slaves rather than the French or Russian revolutions.
The emancipation of the negro slave in North America cost many, many lives. It was a freedom dearly paid for and many would say is still neither complete nor assured. I would view this as completely different from the social (not through force of arms) struggle to ensure equality for women.

Quote:
Wehn you say a minority of malcontents are you referring to the hundreds of millions of starving people throughout the world, the billions of people working in poorly rewarded and unfulfilling jobs, or the vast majority of peoepl who yearn to be free?
I'm referring to the United Kingdom. I wasn't aware this was a discussion on the formation of a Global Government of Freedom. In any case I do not believe in arguing about what's best for all these unspecified starving people. If I truly cared about such injustice I would help them. I would give up my comfortable home, my insane amount of technical gadgetry, my comparitive wealth and use my undoubted freedom of choice to help those people in a meaningful way. But I choose not to help them and so do you.

Quote:
China and Cuba are not Socialist by any Marxian definition.
Cuba certainly tries to adhere to Marxist ideals. It is a testament to the unrealistic nature of said ideals that it fails to do so.

Quote:
I am not sure what you mean when you suggest there have been attempts at socialism, socialism is international of course if we look at some nations which have strived to extricate themselves from the imperialist system we see a pattern of then getting flattened.
I would rather see this as a pattern of them collapsing under the ridiculous weight of expectation caused by their attempt to adhere to a system that is unproven and unsound. It is my contention that there has never been a truly functional socialist government and I doubt you can cite one either. In that case why should we give up what we have now for a dream of something better that may never be? Especially when the cost of failure has often proven to be the grinding poverty and lack of social and politicals freedoms you seem to want to abolish.

Quote:
Simply calling peopel rational socialists does not by extension mean that anyone who falls outside your narrow minded definition is somehow irrational.
By definition anyone who takes into account only the positive aspects of socialism and gives no regard to the problems and difficulties inherent in such a complex issue is irrational.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 13:07   #171
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Re: The Dole

omg its really cool how a post about pig being on the dole turns into a full-on political degree course
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 13:09   #172
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furyous
It's certainly a minority in the UK (and the West generally). It is not insignificant, but certainly a minority.
Well, the people in the UK are very important to me but they do only represent 1% of the world's population. We can ignore the other 99% but then our discussion will be slightly askew. Of course "the west" (incl. Japan and Australia but excluding Peru probably...) is a larger, but still relatively small proportion of the population.
Quote:
The idea that socialiam must be truly international to work is a clever one.
I wouldn't really say that socialism has to be international (in the sense that every single country or even most countries "have" to be socialism) but it'd be nice to have a revolution which calls itself socialism not be invaded, attacked, blockaded and generally pissed on by the imperialist nations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBG
Well there would be some instant problems. Land redistribution would have to happen at the start and this would need to be a global thing.
Well, I'm not sure what you mean by land redistribution or "at the start". The start is right this second. The end is the end of the universe. Talking about "when the revolution comes" may keep Trotskyites warm at night, but basically these social changes are happening right now and won't be over quickly.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 13:14   #173
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
I'm referring to the United Kingdom. I wasn't aware this was a discussion on the formation of a Global Government of Freedom. In any case I do not believe in arguing about what's best for all these unspecified starving people. If I truly cared about such injustice I would help them. I would give up my comfortable home, my insane amount of technical gadgetry, my comparitive wealth and use my undoubted freedom of choice to help those people in a meaningful way. But I choose not to help them and so do you.
And so do I. Each individual must take responsibility primarily for themselves and their own.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 13:21   #174
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
If I truly cared about such injustice I would help them. I would give up my comfortable home, my insane amount of technical gadgetry, my comparitive wealth and use my undoubted freedom of choice to help those people in a meaningful way.
That's nice for you. But not every one believes that doing any of that
a) would be of any real practical benefit
b) should be necessary in anyway.

In short, the entire claim that, if you "really" cared about povery you would do x (where x is a drastic course of action) is about on intellectual par with "go back to Russia!!!!!!"
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 13:42   #175
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Well its a complicated question and I can't crystal ball gaze about the administration of a post capitalist society. In terms of principles we can separate private possessions which have always been available to all from such things as land ownership, the ownership of the means of production and of commodities. I would simply follow the principle "of each according to need" in the first instance. No one needs vast acres of land or to own a huge media organisation to live, these things should be in the realm of the commons to be administered by everyone using some suitable mechanism.

As an internationalist I believe that all the world's resources belong to everyone and should be enjoyed by everyone.

That doesn't seem too unrealistic to me.
Can the tree's also be made of candy floss! and rivers of chocolate!

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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 13:54   #176
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
That's nice for you. But not every one believes that doing any of that
a) would be of any real practical benefit
b) should be necessary in anyway.

In short, the entire claim that, if you "really" cared about povery you would do x (where x is a drastic course of action) is about on intellectual par with "go back to Russia!!!!!!"
Not at all. There are many people who do give up the comparitive wealth of western society in order to help those with much, much less. I don't think these people view this as a "drastic course of action." They simply prioritise direct, personal action over intellectual discourse on the internet.

If I was a starving African I think I'd prefer the help of these people of action as opposed to the verbal or intellectual support of anyone present here today. I believe this somewhat nullifies T&F's point that socialism is what the masses of the disenfranchised want as I seriously doubt they give a shit who governs them or how. Roping them into the debate was disingenuous and misleading, I simply sought to correct that. Perhaps I could have been more expansive.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 14:00   #177
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Not at all. There are many people who do give up the comparitive wealth of western society in order to help those with much, much less. I don't think these people view this as a "drastic course of action."
Erm...so?I am saying not everyone feels the same way. Maybe you think the only way to "help Africa" is to quit your job and go over there, I wouldn't feel the same way.
Quote:
If I was a starving African I think I'd prefer the help of these people of action as opposed to the verbal or intellectual support of anyone present here today.
Of course. But I don't see how that's relevant. I'm not sure anyone here is claiming to be Saints that are making the world a better place. We are all flawed individuals (except Jonny <3) living our own lives. What exactly is wrong with spending some of our lives talking about the world a better place? Not just for the ""starving masses" but for us. I think *my* life (not some random African) would be substantially improved under an alternative set of social arrangements. Of course the benefits to others (who are starving) would indeed be immense, but this isn't all (or even mainly) philanthropy.

Quote:
I believe this somewhat nullifies T&F's point that socialism is what the masses of the disenfranchised want as I seriously doubt they give a shit who governs them or how.
I doubt anyone can sensibly answer talk about what other people "really" want, so perhaps you have a point, but I don't think you can say decisively say one way or the other anything from the fact that people aren't all quitting their jobs to join Christian Aid.

Roping them into the debate was disingenuous and misleading, I simply sought to correct that. Perhaps I could have been more expansive.[/quote]
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 14:01   #178
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Well, I'm not sure what you mean by land redistribution or "at the start". The start is right this second. The end is the end of the universe. Talking about "when the revolution comes" may keep Trotskyites warm at night, but basically these social changes are happening right now and won't be over quickly.
You're not sure what I mean by "land redistribution"? Well, here's an example, the millions of Palestinian refugees living in camps. Whose land are they getting?

And don't be insane. Your social changes are no more happening right now than the planet Mercury is taking tango lessons. The start is no more this second than the end of the universe is. Your idea that these social changes and movement towards this post-capitalist society is deluded at best. If anything globally the movement is towards a capitalist society. In fact I'm pretty sure that's how this argument originally started, with either you or T&F expressing distaste towards this movement.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 14:11   #179
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
You're not sure what I mean by "land redistribution"? Well, here's an example, the millions of Palestinian refugees living in camps. Whose land are they getting?
Genuinely speaking, who knows? My more general point is that there is a tendency of imagining politics is all the act of governments and people in threads like this basically outline what they would do if they were supreme rulers of the universe. I am saying that politics is much more the constant interaction of billions of individuals and is ongoing. It's slightly irrelevant what I think should happen about Palestine from the perspective of a white boy from South London because my input is minimal. However, if I was an Israeli I would certainly want to move towards a negotiated settlement where Israel ceded a lot of their land to the Palestenians. In the longer term I'd want to move towards a single state, but I doubt that's forthcoming.

To answer your question more directly - I imagine much of their land will come from Israel, some of it will be other Arab countries and some of them will settle elsewhere. But that's just a guess, not a moral analysis.
Quote:
And don't be insane. Your social changes are no more happening right now than the planet Mercury is taking tango lessons.
Sorry, I was evidently unclear. I am not saying "we're winning" or anything like that. I am saying that I don't find it practical to talk about history a series of explosive events. I mean that society is evolving all the time. There isn't going to be a revolution day where all land issues get sorted out. It's going to take time. I don't really think of things "moving in the right direction" on that level, it's not a big Risk board with Capitalists vs Communists. It's a constantly evolving situation and every single nanosecond is what we (as moral agents) should be evaluating. That's what I mean by it's starting right now.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 14:17   #180
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Genuinely speaking, who knows? My more general point is that there is a tendency of imagining politics is all the act of governments and people in threads like this basically outline what they would do if they were supreme rulers of the universe. I am saying that politics is much more the constant interaction of billions of individuals and is ongoing. It's slightly irrelevant what I think should happen about Palestine from the perspective of a white boy from South London because my input is minimal. However, if I was an Israeli I would certainly want to move towards a negotiated settlement where Israel ceded a lot of their land to the Palestenians. In the longer term I'd want to move towards a single state, but I doubt that's forthcoming.

To answer your question more directly - I imagine much of their land will come from Israel, some of it will be other Arab countries and some of them will settle elsewhere. But that's just a guess, not a moral analysis.
What if nobody wants them? It's not a staggeringly unlikely scenario, it's pretty much the scenario we have at the minute. You can tell people you don't own this land anymore but if you give them a council to decide what to do with it that's effectively what they're going to do.

Quote:
Sorry, I was evidently unclear. I am not saying "we're winning" or anything like that. I am saying that I don't find it practical to talk about history a series of explosive events. I mean that society is evolving all the time. There isn't going to be a revolution day where all land issues get sorted out. It's going to take time. I don't really think of things "moving in the right direction" on that level, it's not a big Risk board with Capitalists vs Communists. It's a constantly evolving situation and every single nanosecond is what we (as moral agents) should be evaluating. That's what I mean by it's starting right now.
However there will be a day, in fact it's today as you say, when I'm asking you how should we start. Parts of the world are heavily and dangerously overpopulated. Should an international movement occur moving some of them into different places?

I understand your point that politics is much more than governments but it's never been about billions of individuals interacting. It's about individuals interacting and forming institutions/societies which interact with other individuals progressively. However these institutions are based on firm foundations of the individuals that make them up, what they have and what they want. Your proposed institutions seem to lack anything.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 14:20   #181
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I'm not sure anyone here is claiming to be Saints that are making the world a better place. We are all flawed individuals (except Jonny <3) living our own lives. What exactly is wrong with spending some of our lives talking about the world a better place? Not just for the ""starving masses" but for us. I think *my* life (not some random African) would be substantially improved under an alternative set of social arrangements. Of course the benefits to others (who are starving) would indeed be immense, but this isn't all (or even mainly) philanthropy.
I agree with the thrust of your point here. This is why I refuted T&F's argument when he suggested that socialism be imposed for largely altruistic reasons. It was never my intention to claim that you or anyone else shared that motivation with him. In fact I'm not really sure why you think I did claim that.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 14:25   #182
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Capitalism is not sustainable, its internal contradictions mean that it will fail. This is not wishful thinking on my part its just that continually burning through the worlds resources, lowering wages whilst expected to sell more products will eventually lead to crisis.
Not necessarily. As greater technological progress is made resource utility ratios rise and the means of gathering resources from <placesnotearth> rises. We seem to have doubled back on a point we had in a different thread the other day whereby I thought we'd agreed that while economic growth has previously been based on exploitation it is not necessarily so and that capitalism, as I or nod would define it, can foster growth without the necessity of people existing in poverty.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 14:41   #183
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
As an internationalist I believe that all the world's resources belong to everyone and should be enjoyed by everyone.
I for one would rather exclusively own a quarter acre piece of land in one place than having a 1/6000000000th share in every piece of land, thanks!
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 14:48   #184
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Well whilst it is possible that Capitalism could be improved, I wonder if it would not start to unravel. A competitive system based on exploitation sor tof runs out of ideas if you remove the exploitation part of it. I note that we already have great technological advances, yet plenty of people do not have clean drinking water or enough to eat. Surely aa failure of supply to meet demand. When we look at the contradictions between capitalism and social accountability we see that even IF we could supply everyone with food and water etc life would still be drudgery, it would be better but still slavery.
I didn't say it wouldn't be slavery, although I'm sure most people would disagree over our definition of that. I just said it could provide sufficient standards of living. I don't see why we'd have to limit exploitation of resources, unless you meant people, and if you did I'd disagree that removing the exploitation of individuals means the system will fail, either. I think to look at the current situation it's best to view in analytically and historically. World population has exploded in the last eighty years, with the worst "excesses" occuring in some of the poorest areas. Some of these areas are wracked by war, and while the point could be made that western industries grow rich selling them the weapons to do this, even taking this point into consideration one has to note that the situation would not be as bad if they still bought the weapons but just stopped using them to destroy the structural development of the society around them.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 15:01   #185
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
I never said there was a unified underclass genius. If there were they would have taken action in their interests. One of the reasons they are disunited is because their (our) interested have been divided. However you don't have to look to hard to see a lot of disatisfaction in UK society alone, let alone throughout the world.

You are making the simpletons mistake of confusing equality and similarity. Equality doesn't mean identical, does it boys and girls, do I really have to point you a dictionery.

Your sentence about the wolves and sheep bares no relation to anything I said. Your assumptionms about socialism bare no relation to the writings of socialists.
You implied that the poor would be willing to unite and overthrow their oppressors if the rich had not the pervasive power of property and ownership. That is tosh. They would not.

The reason they would not is rooted in inequality. I have not confused equality and similarity. My point relates, at its most succinct, to talent and intelligence, both of which cannot be equally distrubuted. To paraphrase Orwell, some individuals are more equal than others. Not everyone has the intelligence to be a doctor or a lawyer. Nor can just anyone write poetry, or paint, or compose a symphony. This is not simply the result of a system based upon reward and capital, but is a prominent feature of human nature.

Socialism, as I see it, flounders under the mistaken assumption that society exists over and above the individual. In actuality, society is composed of individuals; and though these individuals must have equal rights, the complex relationships between individuals cannot be reduced to merely to a question of equality.

I think that despite the rhapsodic ideal of the prole forwarded by socialists, the socialist is merely ashamed of the underclass. In the eyes of the socialist, the prole has proved himself unwilling to follow what the socialist knows is best; the poor man is ignorant of what is best for him, a sheep in wolf's clothing.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 15:04   #186
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Re: The Dole

Considering I wrote all of my replies while I was supposed to be working I must be the most ironic capitalist in history
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 15:08   #187
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
What if nobody wants them? It's not a staggeringly unlikely scenario, it's pretty much the scenario we have at the minute. You can tell people you don't own this land anymore but if you give them a council to decide what to do with it that's effectively what they're going to do.
Yes, well the abolition of private property isn't going to cure the Arab - Israeli conflict. But yeah, if there was a(ny) scenario where thousands of displaced people were politically excluded from any meaningful politicla power then you would probably get violence. I am not suggesting that we as enlightened Celtic/Nordic/Teutonic individuals go and dictate how those dirty Semites live. Obviously our assistance may be required at numerous points, but the form this assistance might take (mediation, charity, whatever) will vary.
Quote:
Parts of the world are heavily and dangerously overpopulated. Should an international movement occur moving some of them into different places?
I don't think overpopulation is much of an issue in an absolute sense, but yeah there are probably areas we should encourage emigration from, perhaps even if only on a temporary basis. We might also want to assist with education programs (generally better educated women have less children which would reduce the pressure on infrastructure) and so on. It's all quite basic stuff really. None of this stuff is very complicated and indeed there are dozens of areas of policy where I would agree with you, and other areas where I would agree with random liberals - it's more about the underlying ideas about what we should be working towards.
Quote:
However these institutions are based on firm foundations of the individuals that make them up, what they have and what they want. Your proposed institutions seem to lack anything.
Well, I've not proposed a firm institutional framework because nothing is set in stone. As you say, these things are determined by their constitute members desires. It's like a nation. What does a nation have? Sure, we can say it has a history or an army or a constitution or a reputation, but basically it's x million individuals who all (in a sense) are united by something (who said the nation was a daily referendum?)
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 15:18   #188
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
Not everyone has the intelligence to be a doctor or a lawyer. Nor can just anyone write poetry, or paint, or compose a symphony. This is not simply the result of a system based upon reward and capital, but is a prominent feature of human nature.
This is partially true (although pretty much everyone can paint, just not well) but has zero impact on ideas about egalitarianism (as I have said many times). If you start out with ideas like :

- socialists believe everyone has equal talents in every sense
- socialism think everyone should be paid exactly the same amount of money
- socialists think society exists entirely independently of individuals

Then obviously you will think socialism is beastly and grossly wrong. And perhaps there are some individuals who do feel like this, but I doubt they are following the same line that myself and Comrade Fugue are quite advancing here.

Quote:
In the eyes of the socialist, the prole has proved himself unwilling to follow what the socialist knows is best; the poor man is ignorant of what is best for him, a sheep in wolf's clothing.
This makes for good rhetoric, but I'm not sure it lines up with what is said here. I can make OTT remarks about how Conservatives believe they are better than everyone else and think black people should be put in camps, but I'm not sure that would be a fair representation of what you're trying to say.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 15:19   #189
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Yes, well the abolition of private property isn't going to cure the Arab - Israeli conflict. But yeah, if there was a(ny) scenario where thousands of displaced people were politically excluded from any meaningful politicla power then you would probably get violence. I am not suggesting that we as enlightened Celtic/Nordic/Teutonic individuals go and dictate how those dirty Semites live. Obviously our assistance may be required at numerous points, but the form this assistance might take (mediation, charity, whatever) will vary.
We support some crazy things. Personally I support a world government which outlines fair terms and enforces them.

Quote:
I don't think overpopulation is much of an issue in an absolute sense, but yeah there are probably areas we should encourage emigration from, perhaps even if only on a temporary basis. We might also want to assist with education programs (generally better educated women have less children which would reduce the pressure on infrastructure) and so on. It's all quite basic stuff really. None of this stuff is very complicated and indeed there are dozens of areas of policy where I would agree with you, and other areas where I would agree with random liberals - it's more about the underlying ideas about what we should be working towards.
I agree that these are highly enlightened ideals and I support them myself but one rather sees them falling down in the short-term implementation department.

Quote:
Well, I've not proposed a firm institutional framework because nothing is set in stone. As you say, these things are determined by their constitute members desires. It's like a nation. What does a nation have? Sure, we can say it has a history or an army or a constitution or a reputation, but basically it's x million individuals who all (in a sense) are united by something (who said the nation was a daily referendum?)
I don't think nations are coherent entities either. States are coherent, and nation-states are incoherent forms of states.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 15:24   #190
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Re: The Dole

Because I've been entirely too serious in this thread and the pressure it's putting on my internet persona is immense I'd like to point out that "better dead than even close to a red".
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 15:49   #191
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I agree that these are highly enlightened ideals and I support them myself but one rather sees them falling down in the short-term implementation department.
Well, in terms of "what should individuals try to do right this minute" then there are a number of things ; support companies which are slightly less shit than others where there's a genuine choice, join a union, donate time and money to charity where appropriate, where they have power/influence in their job (or education) try to put this to good use, that sort of thing. But that's a bit of a different discussion I think (just as valid of course).
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 15:51   #192
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
The reason they would not is rooted in inequality. I have not confused equality and similarity. My point relates, at its most succinct, to talent and intelligence, both of which cannot be equally distrubuted.
Your post seem to be under the assumption that there is a correlation between intelligence and wealth in todays capitalism, If so, I think you'll be disappointed once you start working.

Wealth and effort, maybe. Wealth and personality type, probably. Wealth and Wealth, certainly.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 15:52   #193
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Lousy pinkos cluttering up the forum again
I was following it but got lost somewhere on page 2...
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 15:53   #194
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Re: The Dole

I've rather found a large number of unions are indulged in a quite disgusting betrayal of the general principles they were founded upon. I'd take a long hard look at a union before joining it. Bad enough to have a government spouting off gibberish on your behalf, worse still an organisation you joined of your own free will.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 15:57   #195
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
"Would" is different from "are", furthermore on many occasions have the disadvantaged united to further their own interests. So it is not tosh. In nay case fi it doesn't happen it doesn't happen, but frankly I don't know why it hasn't happened already, if people are desperate they will be united by their desperation. Seems perfectly reasonable.
Speaking exclusively about the UK, you can take the strikes of the 1980s as clear evidence of this happening on a significant scale. But these strikes achieved very little for those involved, because on a national scale, their interests weren't truly united (and industry specific). Now the workforce is far more flexible, and the number of those 'disadvantaged' has significantly recduced. And I'm quite sure I won't see it happen in my lifetime. Capitalism won't collapse as speculated elsewhere, because it will find a way to sustain itself. Where there is a strong financial incentive on an individual level to innovate, and for the few to offer the masses a way forward (be that through technological advancement/efficiency/resource management/the exploitation of non-earth resources etc). And contrary to popular thought, world resources are far from exhausted, they are just becoming more difficult to extract.

We will not agree on these issues. To state it very crudely, it seems that some here aspire to some kind of social ideal that is impossible to achieve because of the simple fact that human beings are both imperfect and very different to one another. A large majority of those people will never be happy with an equality or parity of outcome in life, although they will embrace an equality of opportunity. I find it very hard to imagine a society whereby all responsibility is collective.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 15:58   #196
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
join a union
if they don't believe in Unionism?

Unions are some of the most corrupt and unaccountable organisations in existence.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 16:03   #197
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I've rather found a large number of unions are indulged in a quite disgusting betrayal of the general principles they were founded upon.
Agreed, unfortunately. But it's a small step and you can often have influence. I'd view a union more like the local council - it's utterly gay but if you join you can have some (very limited) influence. I would never expect anything from the higher up union leaders other a stab in the back (well, perhaps with one or two exceptions).

But unions at the grass roots level can still achieve some results, and also can be a useful way of protecting people's rights. As we've seen on these forums there are a ridiculous amount of employers out there taking the piss with basic issues and unless you're a Bolshy gobshite (in a non-political sense) or have someone to advise you, you can get stepped on. I suspect that's not really an issue for many of us though.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 16:06   #198
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furyous
if they don't believe in Unionism?
If you don't believe in collective bargaining there is still many other ways you can "do the right thing" (tm), some of which I've outlined.

I personally dislike almost all of the unions which currently exist, but the idea of having a collective association of workers (or students/whatever) seems like an obvious truism.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 16:07   #199
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
But unions.. also can be a useful way of protecting people's rights.
I agree on that point, and it is the only reason why I would consider joining one. I don't see much use for them otherwise, however.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 16:23   #200
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furyous
I agree on that point, and it is the only reason why I would consider joining one. I don't see much use for them otherwise, however.
Well, from a practical point of view it can be useful to have collective bargaining. Ignoring issues about a "better deal" for workers, it would probably be quite time consuming to arrange 10,000 separate wage negotiations with 10,000 seperate employees. That's probably less of an issue in office / clerical / white collar work though where people undertake independent salary reviews and things like that.
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