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Unread 7 Sep 2006, 23:31   #1
Monroe
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Question 3 way battles

So here is an interesting thought I just had. What if the game had multiple way battles. So what I mean is if two people attack the same planet the same tick who are not either in the same ally or same gal the fight becomes three way rather then attackers verses defenders. So you would have the two attacking fleets fighting eachother as well as the defending fleet(s). This would bring a whole new meaning to piggying because if you piggy on someone else's attack you potentially mess everyone up. Roids would be divided based on remaining value rather then initial value, so if one attacker totally creams the other attacker he gets the roids. Obviously this would take some rewritting of the combat engine, but I think it could be an interesting addition. Thoughts?
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Unread 7 Sep 2006, 23:34   #2
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Re: 3 way battles

What do you do in situations where there are none-alliance-based-BGs, or someone in an alliance brings a newbie they know along, or where two allied alliances attack the same target (eg a huge near untouchable planet, or a fleetcatch or similar)?

Just wondering.
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Unread 7 Sep 2006, 23:40   #3
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Re: 3 way battles

It is interesting. How do ships target though? By fleetscore, by numbers? eg, Attacker 1 is twice the size in terms of fleet Value of Attacker 2, and Defender = Attacker 2. When Attacker 2 fires, would 2/3 of the firepower go towards Attacker 1, and 1/3 to Defender? If that's the case, what happens if the ship class is not present for Attacker 2, but present for the Defender? does the Defender still receive 1/3 of the damage, or 100% of the damage?

Capp roids by survivors is an interesting proposal. Would XP be divided similarly, or because someone got trashed their value would be alot less and thus gain XP as compensation for loosing their fleet, assuming they still cap some roids?
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Unread 7 Sep 2006, 23:40   #4
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Re: 3 way battles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
What do you do in situations where there are none-alliance-based-BGs, or someone in an alliance brings a newbie they know along, or where two allied alliances attack the same target (eg a huge near untouchable planet, or a fleetcatch or similar)?

Just wondering.

Well given what is considered a 'support' planet atm not sure non-allianced based BGs are even legal... But I agree the newbie issue is perplexing, though again most newbies you would want to take on an attack with someone are ussually from your own galaxy. I've never gone on an attack with someone who wasn't either in my gal or in my ally (at least since cluster allies became useless). Can you think of a reasonable senario where it happens? The only one I can think of is friends who know eachother outside of PA attacking together, but again, consistent attacking like that can often be considered multing....
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Unread 7 Sep 2006, 23:42   #5
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Re: 3 way battles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
What do you do in situations where there are none-alliance-based-BGs,
Like, support planets?

Quote:
or someone in an alliance brings a newbie they know along,
That would be known as 'unfortunate' for said newbie (assuming that newbie wasnt in your galaxy).

Quote:
or where two allied alliances attack the same target (eg a huge near untouchable planet, or a fleetcatch or similar)?
Then they die. Obviously, more co-ordination is needed such that only one alliance plus their galaxymates will land on a supermassive target at any given tick. sure, it might make it tougher to take out, but then again it might be harder for supermassive planets to form with less escorting...

Quote:
Just wondering.
me too .


EDIT: Dammit Monroe! i was 2 mins too late!
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Unread 7 Sep 2006, 23:43   #6
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Re: 3 way battles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
It is interesting. How do ships target though? By fleetscore, by numbers? eg, Attacker 1 is twice the size in terms of fleet Value of Attacker 2, and Defender = Attacker 2. When Attacker 2 fires, would 2/3 of the firepower go towards Attacker 1, and 1/3 to Defender? If that's the case, what happens if the ship class is not present for Attacker 2, but present for the Defender? does the Defender still receive 1/3 of the damage, or 100% of the damage?
Essentially how attacking should work is all targeted ships are counted up regardless of value and then killed as they currently are. In terms of ships from different fleets that fire simultaneously the same principle is used. So all targeted ships are tallied up and then marked as killed or not killed by each attacker/defender then the total killed is added up and removed using the same method that is currently used.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Capp roids by survivors is an interesting proposal. Would XP be divided similarly, or because someone got trashed their value would be alot less and thus gain XP as compensation for loosing their fleet, assuming they still cap some roids?
XP is already divided up by # of roids captured so I would imagine it stays that way.
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Unread 7 Sep 2006, 23:44   #7
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Re: 3 way battles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe
Can you think of a reasonable senario where it happens? The only one I can think of is friends who know eachother outside of PA attacking together, but again, consistent attacking like that can often be considered multing....
I've done it a few times...

When I've caught newbies doing poor attacks on my galaxy (clearly newbyish ones), I've PAmailed them asking if they were quite new, and if they were I've offered to meet them on IRC and bring them along. Or I've met a new person in some channel somewhere who's asked questions about PA and then offered to bring them along too. Often it's been that I've just helped them pick targets in either ND or AG raids that I've set up, or just for themselves, but sometimes I have paired them up with people! (usually myself)

The real life friend (or real life friend of an IRC friend, for example) is another one I've seen or experienced myself.
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Unread 7 Sep 2006, 23:47   #8
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Re: 3 way battles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Then they die. Obviously, more co-ordination is needed such that only one alliance plus their galaxymates will land on a supermassive target at any given tick. sure, it might make it tougher to take out, but then again it might be harder for supermassive planets to form with less escorting...
(
I agree with this, they die. This means individual allies will have to coordinate each wave, which isn't necessarily unreasonable imo.
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Unread 7 Sep 2006, 23:49   #9
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Re: 3 way battles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
I've done it a few times...

When I've caught newbies doing poor attacks on my galaxy (clearly newbyish ones), I've PAmailed them asking if they were quite new, and if they were I've offered to meet them on IRC and bring them along. Or I've met a new person in some channel somewhere who's asked questions about PA and then offered to bring them along too. Often it's been that I've just helped them pick targets in either ND or AG raids that I've set up, or just for themselves, but sometimes I have paired them up with people! (usually myself)

The real life friend (or real life friend of an IRC friend, for example) is another one I've seen or experienced myself.
Allright well this is a valid point. One thing which could be done is (though it would be a little complicated) is give someone the option of 'turning off' the all fire option when he launches. This would mean that his fleet would only target defenders on this particular attack. If the guy he was teaming with did the same then they would both be ok.
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Unread 7 Sep 2006, 23:55   #10
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Re: 3 way battles

I do like the idea of a bit of a risk with piggying.

A fleet toggle where you can have 'only fire on defenders' or 'split fire'. The attackers can then play chicken via PAmail!

I do like that idea!

Though this does open up some problems with stealing, recoding the game engine and I'm sure there's some exploitable way to make 'green attacks' happen again.
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Unread 8 Sep 2006, 00:00   #11
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Re: 3 way battles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
I do like the idea of a bit of a risk with piggying.

A fleet toggle where you can have 'only fire on defenders' or 'split fire'. The attackers can then play chicken via PAmail!

I do like that idea!

Though this does open up some problems with stealing, recoding the game engine and I'm sure there's some exploitable way to make 'green attacks' happen again.
I don't think there is a green attack problem here because anything you could attack with that would match the eta and target the other offensive attacker would be better servered being sent as defense that way the rest of the defense doesn't target it. I think the major obstical is recoding, but I don't think it would take that much recoding because the method of combat will stay the same, only the choice of targeting will change. This being said it isn't a 'simple' tweak but I think if it was done it would create a great game of chicken as you put it.
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Unread 8 Sep 2006, 00:06   #12
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Re: 3 way battles

the recoding of the engine tbh shouldnt be too great an issue...iirc appoco has been commenting on changing the engine now for a few rounds and something like this might be the change that propels this recode forward
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Unread 8 Sep 2006, 00:41   #13
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Re: 3 way battles

I'm kinda more worried about the Purple Attack (you heard it here first! ), whereby Attacker 1 sends eg CR/BA, Attacker 2 sends eg FI/CO, and the Defender has FR/DE at home. Assuming that FR fires on FI/CO, and DE fires on CR/BA, then Attacker 1's fleet kills the FR and opens the way for Attacker 2, Attacker 2's fleet targets DE and opens the way for Attacker 1. Attacker 1 and Attacker 2's fleets dont target eachother (much, at least), and the defender gets totally screwed. Thus, there is a way for OOG/OOA attackers to co-ordinate their fleets to screw the (potentially larger) defender, pick up lots of roids and XP. I dont know how often this would happen, and it would be pretty vulnerable to universal (green) defence, and it would potentially be the preserve of players with alot of skill and planning and co-ordination (all good things), etc, but still it might be considered a 'loophole' in the system.

I dont think that having a switch is a good idea though, else everyone would just have attack defender set and not really worry about the piggybacking (ie, how it is now without a signfiicant recode of the combat engine).
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Unread 8 Sep 2006, 01:13   #14
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Re: 3 way battles

Teamups would be destroyed ! I can't see a way to work this.
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Unread 8 Sep 2006, 02:52   #15
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Re: 3 way battles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
I'm kinda more worried about the Purple Attack (you heard it here first! ), whereby Attacker 1 sends eg CR/BA, Attacker 2 sends eg FI/CO, and the Defender has FR/DE at home. Assuming that FR fires on FI/CO, and DE fires on CR/BA, then Attacker 1's fleet kills the FR and opens the way for Attacker 2, Attacker 2's fleet targets DE and opens the way for Attacker 1. Attacker 1 and Attacker 2's fleets dont target eachother (much, at least), and the defender gets totally screwed. Thus, there is a way for OOG/OOA attackers to co-ordinate their fleets to screw the (potentially larger) defender, pick up lots of roids and XP. I dont know how often this would happen, and it would be pretty vulnerable to universal (green) defence, and it would potentially be the preserve of players with alot of skill and planning and co-ordination (all good things), etc, but still it might be considered a 'loophole' in the system.
I don't get this loophole, isn't this how the game works now anyway?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
I dont think that having a switch is a good idea though, else everyone would just have attack defender set and not really worry about the piggybacking (ie, how it is now without a signfiicant recode of the combat engine).
This is debatable but you might be right, I'm not sure I would use it though, cause I wanna kill those bloody piggies!
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Unread 8 Sep 2006, 02:52   #16
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Re: 3 way battles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shyne
Teamups would be destroyed ! I can't see a way to work this.
I don't see how, you can still teamup with your ally and your gal mates, seems like thats what most players do now anyway. Please elaborate....
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Unread 8 Sep 2006, 03:24   #17
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Re: 3 way battles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe
I don't get this loophole, isn't this how the game works now anyway?
Yes, and no. Presently, both Attackers would just attack and not have to carefully plan their fleets so that they wouldnt kill eachother. This is because neither attacking fleet will fire on eachother under any circumstance, only fir on Defenders.

With the system you are proposing, the point is to prevent piggybacking (at least by people OOG/OOA). What i am saying with the 'loophole', is that OOG/OOA attacking can still happen, provided attackers communicate and arrange their fleet such that the attackers dont fire on eachother, yet still fire on the Defenders.

Thus, defeating the purpose of the suggestion.




...
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Unread 8 Sep 2006, 03:57   #18
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Re: 3 way battles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Thus, defeating the purpose of the suggestion.
I don't really think so, because if it is coordinated then it isn't piggying, its a coordinated attack which I don't have any issue with that. If it's accidental and it just works out that way (where the attackers don't target eachother) then fine we're no worse off then we are today.
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Unread 8 Sep 2006, 04:08   #19
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Re: 3 way battles

It needs not be all that co-ordinated, it could just be a function of the ship stats. Eg, Xan FI fleet may not be targeted by a Terran BA fleet, but both target eachother's counters. Thus whomever the defender is, they could get screwed even by unintentional co-operation.
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Unread 8 Sep 2006, 04:27   #20
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Re: 3 way battles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
It needs not be all that co-ordinated, it could just be a function of the ship stats. Eg, Xan FI fleet may not be targeted by a Terran BA fleet, but both target eachother's counters. Thus whomever the defender is, they could get screwed even by unintentional co-operation.
Sure, but that's what happens now anyway.... I don't see my solution as a 100% solution to piggies, just an interesting varient. If you think about it if two groups of raiders attacked the same target for loot they would be just as likely to fight between eachother as they are against any defender, and this would allow PA to mimic that.
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Unread 8 Sep 2006, 04:31   #21
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Re: 3 way battles

The choice to open fire on other attackers could be turned on/off untill eta1 (but couldn't be changed once set).
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Unread 8 Sep 2006, 04:47   #22
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Re: 3 way battles

why let it be toggled at a whim en-route?
just set it as an attack escort mission type instead. - that way statistical information could also (potentially) be gathered as to who is a support planet and who is not.
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Unread 8 Sep 2006, 05:19   #23
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Re: 3 way battles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
why let it be toggled at a whim en-route?
just set it as an attack escort mission type instead. - that way statistical information could also (potentially) be gathered as to who is a support planet and who is not.
I agree it shouldn't be changeable inroute, nothing else is. A new attack type might make sense, though essentially this is what a fake attack is right now anyway.
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Unread 8 Sep 2006, 05:54   #24
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Re: 3 way battles

This could be a good idea, but imo we might also need a change in the shipstats so attacking classes of ships might target other attacking classes.. Like it is today most attacking classes targets mostly defencive classes and vice versa..

An addition to this might also be to let def ships OOG/OOA also battle other def ships to prevent support planets..
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Unread 8 Sep 2006, 10:37   #25
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Re: 3 way battles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe
I don't think there is a green attack problem here because anything you could attack with that would match the eta and target the other offensive attacker would be better servered being sent as defense that way the rest of the defense doesn't target it. I think the major obstical is recoding, but I don't think it would take that much recoding because the method of combat will stay the same, only the choice of targeting will change. This being said it isn't a 'simple' tweak but I think if it was done it would create a great game of chicken as you put it.
It depends how the thing works, of course.

For example, if the defender has no frigates and the 'green attack' defender has loads of frigates, does all anti FR hit the 'green attacker' or is its firepower split regardless?

In which case, using this round as an example, cath CR attacks, if you were to attack with a certain number of gryphons that would otherwise all have been stunned (the defender has NO FR), if firepower is split anyway, then the gryphons actually get to shoot where they wouldn't have. Which is a big problem for high eta-usually-gets-to-shoot-the-defender-first stuff like cath CR and (sometimes) xand FR/Ter DE.
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Unread 8 Sep 2006, 12:53   #26
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Re: 3 way battles

For a long time I was a supporter of a 'friendly fire' system where two unconnected attackers would find some of their ships firing on each other, however any such system is an unfair penalty with the way the universe currently is.

While I like the way that galaxies are now assigned (as it means your never just dumping new players in with new players) the downside to the system is theres a lack of galaxies to target and as such your extreamly lucky if your target galaxies arent being targeted by someone else. We need alot more galaxies imho before any penalty on 'piggybacking' is viable
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Unread 8 Sep 2006, 13:41   #27
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Re: 3 way battles

i dont like this idea because it makes attacking harder. You have to calculate the defenders and you got the risk of a green "defender". In such a small universe it happens quite often that you attack with others - by fault.

and recalling an attacking is very annoying in different ways..
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Unread 8 Sep 2006, 15:57   #28
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Re: 3 way battles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
It depends how the thing works, of course.

For example, if the defender has no frigates and the 'green attack' defender has loads of frigates, does all anti FR hit the 'green attacker' or is its firepower split regardless?

In which case, using this round as an example, cath CR attacks, if you were to attack with a certain number of gryphons that would otherwise all have been stunned (the defender has NO FR), if firepower is split anyway, then the gryphons actually get to shoot where they wouldn't have. Which is a big problem for high eta-usually-gets-to-shoot-the-defender-first stuff like cath CR and (sometimes) xand FR/Ter DE.
I wouldn't split firepower. From a calc point of view the combat engine shouldn't discriminate whether ships are other attackers or defenders. So following your example if someone sends 'green' defense in the form of FR and the defender has no FR 100% of the attacker's anti FR targets the green FR. Honestly I don't see a way for green defense here, there is no advantage to it, it would be better to send the same ships as regular defense as you get the eta bonus, and a chance at salvage.
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Unread 8 Sep 2006, 16:31   #29
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Re: 3 way battles

Sounds like a good idea.
With the firepower being split on the number of ships in each class, like it currently is, it has the benefits of being relatively easy to code and easy to understand.

There could be a benefit in sending red defence (is that the right term?) but I don't think it would be a very big one and it's not like it's a secret. I guess the only way to really see if it works is to make the changes and play a round (speed, free, normal, whatever).
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Unread 8 Sep 2006, 18:41   #30
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Re: 3 way battles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe
I wouldn't split firepower. From a calc point of view the combat engine shouldn't discriminate whether ships are other attackers or defenders. So following your example if someone sends 'green' defense in the form of FR and the defender has no FR 100% of the attacker's anti FR targets the green FR. Honestly I don't see a way for green defense here, there is no advantage to it, it would be better to send the same ships as regular defense as you get the eta bonus, and a chance at salvage.

I think what Gate meant was that if you were a cath attacking a terran with cruisers and had enough tarantulas to stun all the gryphons but at the same time another planet was attacking that terran with frigates then the gryphons would not all get stunned and so the fact that there was another attacker would hurt you, even though they don't target your ships.

If that wasn't what Gate meant I think it is still an issue.
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Unread 8 Sep 2006, 20:13   #31
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Re: 3 way battles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy
I think what Gate meant was that if you were a cath attacking a terran with cruisers and had enough tarantulas to stun all the gryphons but at the same time another planet was attacking that terran with frigates then the gryphons would not all get stunned and so the fact that there was another attacker would hurt you, even though they don't target your ships.

If that wasn't what Gate meant I think it is still an issue.
If that's what he ment then I don't see it as a bad thing, I see it as how it should work. This would be the point, pigging would get very complicated (for attackers) and potentially very messy, I see this as a plus not a minus. This would lead to a flurry of PA mails back and forth between the attackers and could be a lot of fun.
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Unread 8 Sep 2006, 21:21   #32
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Re: 3 way battles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shyne
Teamups would be destroyed ! I can't see a way to work this.
Most teamups involve just one class. Most sets of stats haven't had classes (phoenix/sentinel is about it?) targetting themselves. I fail to see how that's the case.

In the world of Planetarion I guess I'd expect attackers would direct most of their firepower on the target planet but there'd be some stray fire in large battles.

However, this would make it very awkward to organise big battles and that's something we need more not less of.
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Unread 8 Sep 2006, 21:58   #33
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Re: 3 way battles

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwtmc
Most teamups involve just one class. Most sets of stats haven't had classes (phoenix/sentinel is about it?) targetting themselves. I fail to see how that's the case.

In the world of Planetarion I guess I'd expect attackers would direct most of their firepower on the target planet but there'd be some stray fire in large battles.

However, this would make it very awkward to organise big battles and that's something we need more not less of.
This is the one really good arguement against implimenting something like this that I have seen. It would complicate big interally battles potentially, though as you point out, if they are doing single class attacks it shouldn't be a huge deal.
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Unread 10 Sep 2006, 04:11   #34
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Re: 3 way battles

A suggestion for enableing joint alliance attacks etc. would be to have a text box on the missions page were you could enter a password. Then all attackers with this password would not target each other. Also jgps would mark others useing the same password as you, this would also apply to later launchers with the same password so scanners would be able to do jgps for such attacks.
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Unread 11 Sep 2006, 18:34   #35
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Re: 3 way battles

i havent played in a while so this round was my first round back since about 12, but this 3 way battle i think will be a plus to Zik more than anyother race and from this round most of the top players i saw where Zik. Also there would be a problem in that if you are attacking with an alliance but also takin a new player under your wings who is in your gal but not alliance wont your alliance mate hit his ships!?
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Unread 11 Sep 2006, 18:52   #36
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Re: 3 way battles

Though the principle behind the idea is great, I think it adds too many complications and obstacles to ever be implemented sucessfully. I just think it'd be too darn complicated (And the shipstats would probably be even harder to balance than before).
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