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Unread 22 Jan 2014, 13:18   #1
isildurx
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Round 56 shipsstats

My suggestion from R56 shipsstats can be found at;

http://beta.planetarion.com/manual.pl?page=stats

The efficiencies aren't done, the targetting/inits saw some changes this morning and shouldn't change to much from what they are now.


Would love feedback on any changes you feel are warranted, and please give reasons for why.

One note, yes I know the xan fi looks very good, their effs won't be too great so they shouldn't be overpowered.
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Unread 22 Jan 2014, 14:28   #2
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

I feel like all races have decent options available, so it's a decent start. At least all races can fire at all classes, so that puts these stats in the top percentile already...

As Ter, I'd probably go Harpy + De, to ensure no one will roid you after tick 700. War Frigate or Pegasus + Syren + Bs is another option, but being unable to defend against Fi and Co is annoying from an alliance perspective. Phoenix could do it, but the high init makes me uncomfortable.

As Cat, start with a pure Co XP fest, then move to dual classing Co/Cr + Scorpion after TT-4 and some HCT. Cr rushing looks viable as ever as well.

Xan is a little odd. In theory there's the Fr fort play, but you need 2 additional ships to close all holes. Unless you're going for Siege early on (always painful for Xan), both of those ships will be in the Fi roiding fleet. Basically whatever you do you'll end up with 2 roiding fleets, which isn't very forty. Works well offensively, though.

Zik has 2 options. Sair or Pillager + De or Cutlass + Buccaneer + Cr. You could also go completely nuts and run with a Fi/Co fleet with some stolen Cat Co and Xan Fi. Add Buccaneer and you only need to build 3 ships to fully cover all classes. Horrific without Cat Co support, pray your Sairs never steal anything, and you'll get plenty of incs, though.

Etd Fr has the same issue as Xan Fr. Forty but not quite forty enough to be worth it, except this time you don't even get a second roiding fleet out of it. Lancer + Paladin + BS looks more solid, in my opinion. Beyond that there's some nice possible steals into Co and De where there's plenty of flak available, which allows clever faking for those who are able.


Fr, De and Fr/De forting all look good as an ally strat, as does Xan/Cat (with some Ziks who want to try some Fi/Co stealing). The high ETA of Cr/Bs is always problematic, but Ter/Cat/Zik dual classing seems viable.
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Unread 27 Jan 2014, 18:59   #3
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

So a set of stats is presented early, and noone has opinions on them?
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Unread 27 Jan 2014, 20:57   #4
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

I will have a proper look at the weekend I think
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Unread 27 Jan 2014, 22:15   #5
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Just came to my attention I'll have a look at them and comment accordingly makes a bit harder to read when ship classes arent in order but Im not critising.
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Unread 28 Jan 2014, 08:52   #6
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

You should fix efficiencies so its possible to proper analyze them

Until that happens all I can say is that etd is awful.

Last edited by Plaguuu; 28 Jan 2014 at 09:13.
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Unread 28 Jan 2014, 09:31   #7
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

I'm not finishing of efficiencies until people think that the inits/targettings are alright

And I 100% disagree that etd is bad.

I'm sorry about shipclasses not being in order, have nagged appoco to sort em. They used to be in order, but something mustve happened.
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Unread 28 Jan 2014, 17:43   #8
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
I'm not finishing of efficiencies until people think that the inits/targettings are alright

And I 100% disagree that etd is bad.

I'm sorry about shipclasses not being in order, have nagged appoco to sort em. They used to be in order, but something mustve happened.
Well its kinda hard to agree with inits when you dont know what stats the ship have, if a ship has awful init that can be perfectly fine if the efficiency is good vice versa.

As for etd sucking. Its only target(without teamup) for attacks is itself?
Best use for attack is probably supporting xan fr with rangers in attack.
Guardian basicly adds nothing to a bs combo(dragon preinits tycoon, and the 3/7 init on guardian/wyvern is basicly the same as none of their targets is in the range between that but wyv is a kill ship so guess whats the best)
While it the race that is the most suitable targets for the most races.

Cat I barely looked at as its hopeless to do a guessing game on what efficiencies the ships will have. I dont see a reason why you cant put in efficiencies to atleast somewhat where they will be. It's not like you cant tweak it again later.

And yeah its gonna get pretty defensive set with this many ships.

Last edited by Plaguuu; 28 Jan 2014 at 17:49.
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Unread 28 Jan 2014, 19:26   #9
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
Well its kinda hard to agree with inits when you dont know what stats the ship have, if a ship has awful init that can be perfectly fine if the efficiency is good vice versa.
90% of the strengh of a ship is determined by class, targetting, type and init. Effs, when not ridiculous, only fill in the last 10%. So use your brain and pretend they're reasonable and everything will be fine.
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Unread 28 Jan 2014, 23:09   #10
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

well if theese are close to reasonable then spider is so strong vs beetle and the fact that all races got hulls 1 anti fico will make beetle unbuildable for offense.
While viper is super strong, will spider be nerfed and viper nerfed or is it big offset to balance eachother out? I dont know

Roach got same effs vs roidfleet de as roidfleet fr even tho its t2 is this intentional I have no idea or should I assume t2 freeze will be at 60% of t1 as sometimes freeze stats have infact had close effs on t1 and t2.
This can give big results in how the stats turn out.

And efficiency means 10%? Bullsh.. It can mean everything and nothing depending on what they are set to. And even if it was only 10% why not just do them last 10% so we could better know what we are working with.
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Unread 28 Jan 2014, 23:10   #11
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Dont look at effs yet, look at inits and targetting. You always do effs last, there's no point in doing all the effs now, only for me to change the init of a ship or add a new ship completely changing the dynamics of a race.

It should be hard to figure out effs. Out of roidclass ships have better eff than ships in roidclass. Ships with later inits will have better effs than ships with early inits.
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Unread 29 Jan 2014, 05:55   #12
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
And efficiency means 10%? Bullsh.. It can mean everything and nothing depending on what they are set to. And even if it was only 10% why not just do them last 10% so we could better know what we are working with.
Yes it can. But if they're reasonable, they won't. And you don't want to do them right away, because even though they only make a small difference, doing them costs just as much work as inits and targetting. 10% of the impact, 50% of the work.
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Unread 28 Jan 2014, 11:59   #13
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Shiporder fixed now.
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Unread 28 Jan 2014, 13:21   #14
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Seem to be very defensive stats still reasonable.

I hate cath when the defense ships fire before the attack ships.
Spider > beetle and scorpion > roach/tula etc.

Too many 1 fleet stoppers on attacks and will force team ups to cover the weaknesses.

As they stand i would play ter de + harpy or xan Fi with wraith and spectre.
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Unread 28 Jan 2014, 17:07   #15
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

There are some good defships but I feel like theyve been spread around mainly outside of roidclasses.
Every attackfleet can attack at least 2 races, and there are big opportunities for faking.

I'm more than willing to listen to ships you feel need to be altered
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Unread 28 Jan 2014, 18:08   #16
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Many ships doesn't necessrily mean defensive stats, you can't build every ship.

As for etd FR it can hit xan and etd, and if teamed with xan it can also hit Zik and Cat. If it steal

Guardian helps stun specs f.ex
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Unread 29 Jan 2014, 19:54   #17
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Well if the ships out-of-roidclass is WORSE than the ships in a roidclass... who the hell would build them? Every ship has to have an advantage that makes it worth buying.
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Unread 29 Jan 2014, 20:26   #18
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Welcome to the joys of making shipstats, you aren't going to please the majority of players. Personally I would make the stats more offensive as the current set of stats would suit the fort players more than noobs.
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Unread 29 Jan 2014, 21:20   #19
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

I'm inclined to agree, but don't really have any suggestions how to. :/
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Unread 29 Jan 2014, 21:24   #20
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Would need to cull a few ships off the stats page If that is the direction that Isildurx wants to go I can make some suggestions
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Unread 30 Jan 2014, 09:22   #21
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

The problem is that culling ships means that perhaps stats become a bit more offensive but it means fewer options and less diversifiation. Everyone spamming one roidclass each is boring.
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Unread 31 Jan 2014, 20:19   #22
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

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Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
Would need to cull a few ships off the stats page If that is the direction that Isildurx wants to go I can make some suggestions
Can you please point out specific ships that make this set too defensive?
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Unread 31 Jan 2014, 22:39   #23
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
Can you please point out specific ships that make this set too defensive?
Suggestions I would make to make it less defensive/more offensive.

Terran...
Bin the war frigate
Wyvern targets de only.

Cath...
Beetle init to 1
Roach init to 1
Tula init to 1

Xan...
Bomber t1 CR only.
Spectre init to 8 t1 BS only
Broadsword add t2 BS

Zik...
Pillager to init 7

Etd...
Devastator t2 FR
Investor emp Init 2
Tycoon to emp Init 2
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Unread 31 Jan 2014, 23:25   #24
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

SO with your changes;

- nothing stops xan fi
- the spider is useless
- xan fr is pretty much useless on its own
- etd pretty much becomes cath v2.0 with 5 emp ships

Making etd stronger defensively, I don't see how those changes you propose make these stats any more attacking. Yes the zik cr is improved, but the fr class is weakened. The one big offensive change is that xan fi can now roid everything.
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Unread 31 Jan 2014, 23:30   #25
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

The way I see it, if these stats need to be made more offensive then the primary class to improve is DE.
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Unread 1 Feb 2014, 00:09   #26
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Might change Tarantula init to 1 and Guardian and Roach init to 2
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Unread 1 Feb 2014, 16:01   #27
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
SO with your changes;

- nothing stops xan fi
- the spider is useless
- xan fr is pretty much useless on its own
- etd pretty much becomes cath v2.0 with 5 emp ships

Making etd stronger defensively, I don't see how those changes you propose make these stats any more attacking. Yes the zik cr is improved, but the fr class is weakened. The one big offensive change is that xan fi can now roid everything.
-
- Xan have more of an anti bs and cr weakness to compensate for their fi fleet.
- Means more beetles prod and makes xan fi planets easier to roid and cath co stronger.
- had taken into account of this via the strengthen fi fleet.
- Etd has the ability to steal kill type frigates and Battleships and would make etd interesting.

The BS/CR roiding options would be improved and xan frig can still roid a ter bs/de planet.

As the stats stand the only real options for alliances are xan Fi, Fr or De
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Unread 1 Feb 2014, 16:18   #28
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

I disagree completely with your claim that xan fi, fr and de are the only viable alliance options. And if xan fi are already one of the few alliance options, why would your strengthen it by removing the one killship that is good vs em?
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Unread 1 Feb 2014, 16:54   #29
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

UPDATE

The Guardian and Roach are now init 2, previously init 3.
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Unread 1 Feb 2014, 18:01   #30
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Its your go with the stats so good luck
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Unread 1 Feb 2014, 18:06   #31
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

I change my stats when I get argument I agree with, but I don't agree with your logic whatsoever.
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Unread 1 Feb 2014, 19:57   #32
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
I change my stats when I get argument I agree with, but I don't agree with your logic whatsoever.
The logic is to make the stats more noob friendly rather than suiting fort players.
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Unread 1 Feb 2014, 20:24   #33
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

That's the problem though, the changes you want to make doesn't really make forting* any harder. And I would beg to differ, in my opinion stats where it's easy to fort(i.e hard to be attacked) are more noob friendly. Being easily roided is hardly noob friendly, they are the ones who have the hardest time finding defence.


* I'm not even sure if forting even happens anymore? Every race has to build 4 or 5 ships minimum, it's not like any planet can just spam three different ships in the same class.
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Unread 3 Feb 2014, 17:11   #34
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
That's the problem though, the changes you want to make doesn't really make forting* any harder. And I would beg to differ, in my opinion stats where it's easy to fort(i.e hard to be attacked) are more noob friendly. Being easily roided is hardly noob friendly, they are the ones who have the hardest time finding defence.


* I'm not even sure if forting even happens anymore? Every race has to build 4 or 5 ships minimum, it's not like any planet can just spam three different ships in the same class.
Forting still happends, and defensive stats = noob hostile. Offensive stats = noob hostile.

There are no NOOB FRIENDLY stats what so ever.

Defensive sets means nubs are the ones bleeding only, offensive stats means everyone has a good chanse to bleed. Offensive is a lot more noob friendly, as the nubs can have a chanse of landing succesful attacks, unlike on defensive sets.
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Unread 3 Feb 2014, 15:29   #35
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Im not saying they are bad stats just defensive.
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Unread 3 Feb 2014, 16:36   #36
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

I respect that, and I think you're partly right, but the suggestion you've come up with(and the suggetions I've tought of) don't remdy that.
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Unread 3 Feb 2014, 17:25   #37
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Give me some examples of galaxies who's forted i recent rounds please.
Getting people to exile in and having huge value does NOT necessarily constitute forting btw


As for attacking stas, I agree that offensiv stats are enjoyable, but only to an extent. I think everyone having the same ships and just spamming these are boring. That's one of the elements my stats have, the possibility to choose different strategies than everyone else. My stats aren't very offensive, but they're certainly more offensive than the stats this round.

If you want a very offensiv race where you cap a lot of roids then just go xan fi or cat co in my stats, if you want to be more defensively solid then try zik/ter/etd.
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Unread 5 Feb 2014, 15:50   #38
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

I'm toying with the idea of giving cath a third podclass(DE) and a DE->FICO EMP ship. It would probably have init 3, and Defenders change its init to 2.

Thoughts?

Obviously this would strengthen the DE class a lot, so might have to reduce some efficiencies. It would make the stats more offensive at least.
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Unread 8 Feb 2014, 12:36   #39
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Scarab shouldn't be the only non-EMP ship on Cath.
3rd pod class is unrealistic imo.

Why is zik the only class with no CO T1?

Having the possibility to build 3 ships and defend against everything is one of the reasons why the "defensive" word is coming up.
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Unread 9 Feb 2014, 22:21   #40
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fruntxas View Post
Scarab shouldn't be the only non-EMP ship on Cath.
3rd pod class is unrealistic imo.

Why is zik the only class with no CO T1?

Having the possibility to build 3 ships and defend against everything is one of the reasons why the "defensive" word is coming up.
It is possible to only build three ships and target everything, but they Would be spread over all three metaclasses and leave you with a terrible fleet both offensively and defensively, few, if any, planets will do this.
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Unread 8 Feb 2014, 20:25   #41
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

I would suggest giving the 3rd pod class a miss
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Unread 9 Feb 2014, 09:14   #42
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

the number of ships itselfs scares the hell out of me allready,
and the first thought coming to my mind is "how will i be able to land solo past tick 400!?"
i know you want to allow diversity, which i think is a good thing, as yes it is boring to just everyone build the same 3 ships, however
i dont think you will do anything else with this set, then frustrate a lot of players cause they simply cant land for roids.

I am not sure if a set with that many ships works at all, but id try with a 100% Single-Targetting Version if i was you and if i wanted to have that many diffrent ships
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Unread 9 Feb 2014, 16:40   #43
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Its exactly why i called them defensive stats.
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Unread 9 Feb 2014, 22:18   #44
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

As usual you guys keep making claims without any form of coherent arguments in then.
Why is a third podclass for cath bad. Any reason beyond "cat having the most oods is unfair".
And just because there are a lot of ships doesnt mean that the stats are defensive and soloing is impossible the last half of round. Every fleet has at least two targs it can solo all round long.
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Unread 10 Feb 2014, 02:12   #45
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
As usual you guys keep making claims without any form of coherent arguments in then.
Why is a third podclass for cath bad. Any reason beyond "cat having the most oods is unfair".
And just because there are a lot of ships doesnt mean that the stats are defensive and soloing is impossible the last half of round. Every fleet has at least two targs it can solo all round long.
Im just going to let the alliance strategy decisions speak for themselves.
I.E. they wont touch bs/cr
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Unread 10 Feb 2014, 07:53   #46
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Because..... each bs fleet being able to solo three races isn't enough?
Cath can hit every race, ziks can hit only two races but have the possibility of stealing itself a great cr fleet.

How would you improve the cr/bs fleets then?
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Unread 10 Feb 2014, 16:58   #47
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
As usual you guys keep making claims without any form of coherent arguments in then.
Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
Because..... each bs fleet being able to solo three races isn't enough?
Cath can hit every race, ziks can hit only two races but have the possibility of stealing itself a great cr fleet.
What players look for when playing planetarion is the abilty to go and attack a target and have a decent defence tolerance to be able to land attacks.
If there are 1 fleet stoppers (as I call them) or defense fleets that get their cut in first this makes going this fleet less viable.

One isn't taking into account that the allies will go fr/de or fi/co with fr/de defence ships and how flaking ships will act in defense even with wyverns being 400 in damage v cost just add some hulls 2 xan defense and ter bs is unlandable. (See how ter BS is starting to look unattractive as an attack option most ters will go ter de +fi)
However guardians are fairly weak ~140% eff v Fr and ~110% v De and wouldn't take much fr/de flak (flak = fr/de class ships that don't fire at target ships but soak the emp/damage to allow the defense ships to fire back)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
the first thought coming to my mind is "how will i be able to land solo past tick 400!?"
This tends to make noobs more roidable and top players harder to roid... I would welcome isildurx to give his insight on how his stats will be interpreted by the alliance HCs that will make the call on their alliance strategies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
How would you improve the cr/bs fleets then?
I've already suggested how to improve Bs/Cr
http://pirate.planetarion.com/showpo...7&postcount=24

by putting in more Holes in how fr/de and bs/cr interact with each other but this would make fr/de spaming less practical

If you want to look at historical stats for bs/cr v fr/de balance R38 was a decent round for this.
http://beta.planetarion.com/history/...?id=4&round=38
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Unread 10 Feb 2014, 17:57   #48
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
I would welcome isildurx to give his insight on how his stats will be interpreted by the alliance HCs that will make the call on their alliance strategies.
This all depends what kind of round alliances want to play, if there is to be a focus on being strong offensively or being harder to roid.

The way I see it, the most likely combos for the different races are;

Terran:
CRBS + Nixes
DE + Harps
DE + Wyvs

The war frigate could be in addition to all these three strategies.

Cathaar:
CO + DE
CO + CR/BS

Xan:
FI + FR
FICO + DE

ZIk:
DE + FI
DE + BS
CR + DE
CRBS + FI

ETD:
FR + FICO
FR + DE/FI
FR + DE/BS
CO + BS + Paladin


These combos leaves alliances with a wealth of possibly race-combos to choose between. I'd say the most exciting ones are;

Cat/Zik - co + crbs
Pure Xan FI
Ter/Etd CO + DE/BS
Xan/ETD FI/CO + FR
Ter/ETD FI + Paladin/Gryph + BS

In addition to this you have ships like Pirate, Broadsword, War Frigate and Defender who all could be great backbones for a roidfleet if the right pods are stolen with covops.

In addition to this, these stats should be excellent for faking. Every single race has good faking options with their two podclasses.
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Unread 11 Feb 2014, 22:08   #49
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

My problem is Co only targets Fi/co Except for Viper. So unless you intend on making more Co target De you should remove the Co targeting from De Fleets.

Edit: Also Since only Xan fi has a damage dealing fi vs Co why is Beetle T1 Fi when terran/zik/etd/XAN all have Co that targets for damage. It just makes Cath co REALLY weak.
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Unread 10 Feb 2014, 10:47   #50
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

I understand the need to make "offensive" stats however i find that these are defensive late game stats also, im not loving zik as a race, with the lack of steal ships.

Fi/Co Looks like the all xan alliance might actually be worthwhile with no effective counter without EMP, Co Fi teamups will be hard to stop with spiders low init.

Fr/De will be strong early round and super weak towards the end when xans get some nice value in banshee fleets.

Cr/Bs certainly the worst solo'ing potential and apart from having 4 ships that out init BS it's not the worst setup cr however is the worst unless you full emp the defenders you're losing value most likely before theres any damage to be done

Suggestion: nerf xan boost cr
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