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Unread 11 May 2006, 22:34   #1
meglamaniac
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Yo students - AUT strike action

Has this affected you yet?
It's now filtering through to us at Loughborough.

Up until today I was basically in support of the AUT's quest for a pay rise. What was different today was the email we got from the Vice Chancellor. The part causing widespread concern is as follows:

Quote:
Originally Posted by LUVC
1. In the event that the dispute is not resolved before the start of the exam period, there may be some circumstances in which either an exam does not take place, or where the marks for an exam are not available.

2. In these circumstances, where a module mark is not available, or is incomplete as a result of the boycott, we plan to determine a mark based on the individual's performance in those modules for which we do have marks. The methodology for determining the marks will aim to be as consistent as possible across the University, whilst bearing in mind any special factors relating to the specific module and programme. For final year undergraduates, Part A marks will not be taken into account in the methodology. The full set of marks for each student will then be considered according to the University's regulations to determine the class of degree awarded, whether a student can progress or whether any resits are required.

So my university's grand plan to solve the problem is: Let's fabricate the grades!!

I mean seriously. What? Just what?!
None of my previous modules bear any real relevance to the ones I'm doing at the moment, so how the **** are they planning on getting some meaningful grade? Why the hell have I just put 4 months of work into exams which not only might not happen, but will then have made-up grades pulled out of the air?

I guess if students in general had stopped to think about it, we'd have seen this coming, but really: **** you, AUT. This is a direct consequence of your reckless action. You don't use our assesments, our futures (especially not those of finalists), as ammunition to extort your employers. It's irresponsible, and it's incredibly selfish.

I've talked to around 20 people so far today about this, and any support for the AUT has pretty much evaporated into thin air. If they had any real regard for us at all, they'd defer further action until the start of the new academic year. Fair pay is fine. ****ing with our lives is not.

[edit]
Replaced "blackmail" with "extort" as I'm an idiot.
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Unread 11 May 2006, 22:38   #2
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

Nothing here yet.
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Unread 11 May 2006, 22:41   #3
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

Don't they want like a 29% pay rise in 3 years?

I can't stand strikers. Then again I hate trade unions, or at least when they become involved in wage negotiations.

Lecturers are a weird situation though. We know they don't do it for the money because they can earn so much more in a different field (typically). If they do want more money they can publish more.

So the ones that do choose to have a career as a lecturer and not spend all their time writing things to make money do it because they don't care about money, they enjoy teaching and care about the students? THEN STOP STRIKING!
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Unread 11 May 2006, 22:45   #4
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stew
Lecturers are a weird situation though. We know they don't do it for the money because they can earn so much more in a different field (typically). If they do want more money they can publish more.

So the ones that do choose to have a career as a lecturer and not spend all their time writing things to make money do it because they don't care about money, they enjoy teaching and care about the students? THEN STOP STRIKING!
what
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Unread 11 May 2006, 22:46   #5
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

Apparently (this is from the VC's email) they rejected 12.6% over three years, which frankly sounds pretty fair to me. It's above inflation by a reasonable margin. Like I said, fair pay is fine. Now they're just being twats.
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Unread 11 May 2006, 22:49   #6
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

well, apparently they've had no pay rise for quite a few years.
They wanted one nearer 23% than the 12...% i think.

I've not been affected yet, but my project is handed in on monday, and my exams start in 3 weeks or so.

(I'd love if they made up my grades. If my grades are ~ the same as they were before, i'll get a 2-1 and be off to canterbury)
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Unread 11 May 2006, 22:50   #7
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
what
It made sense in my head
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Unread 11 May 2006, 22:50   #8
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
Apparently (this is from the VC's email) they rejected 12.6% over three years, which frankly sounds pretty fair to me. It's above inflation by a reasonable margin. Like I said, fair pay is fine. Now they're just being twats.
Lecturers dont get paid anywhere near enough, 12.6% is a joke and bordering on insulting. Compare lecturer salaries in Britain with those in America. There is no reason they should be happy with the pittance they are receiving at the moment.
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Unread 11 May 2006, 22:50   #9
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

It all depends on

a) If your lecturer/examiner is an AUT member
b) If they feel strongly enough to with-hold your grades or stop the assesment entirely

So some people will be screwed over, others won't, in a pretty random and very shit way.
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Unread 11 May 2006, 22:52   #10
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

2 of my 6 modules are involved

Though apparently mine have actually marked everything they are just withholding the marks until this is sorted so I am hopeful that they will release them if it comes down to it.
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Unread 11 May 2006, 22:53   #11
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
It all depends on

a) If your lecturer/examiner is an AUT member
b) If they feel strongly enough to with-hold your grades or stop the assesment entirely

So some people will be screwed over, others won't, in a pretty random and very shit way.
I think 3-4/5 of my lectuerers are in the AUT

if they do mark or whatever, they're in trouble with the AUT for breaking the boycott.

It's going to get tense in the next couple of weeks, because it's the end of the final term.

and yes, if you think they're going to have to wait for another 20 years or whatever until their next semi-decent pay increase, that makes the 12.3% even worse :/
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Unread 11 May 2006, 22:58   #12
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

Yeah I suppose in context 12.3% isn't as good as it might first seem.
I still think it's unacceptable to screw up the assesments though.
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Unread 11 May 2006, 23:09   #13
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

I was fully in support of the train driver strike until I needed to catch a train
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Unread 11 May 2006, 23:13   #14
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Compare lecturer salaries in Britain with those in America.
Comparison is only useful if they are meaningful comparisons - you would have to compare PPP, the quality (and quantity) of production, efficiency, demand and supply of labour, fringe benefits just off the top of my head before reaching something even close to becoming a meaningful comparison.

Additionally, and most importantly, it should be noted that just because "they" are getting a wage rise is not justified to give "us" a pay rise - this type of behaviour has clear and obvious implications for an economy. If you doubt it, see the Australian economy (c 1974/5) in particular (there are many instances).
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Unread 11 May 2006, 23:16   #15
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Comparison is only useful if they are meaningful comparisons
and there is one.

so stop waffling crap.
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Unread 11 May 2006, 23:17   #16
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

Lecturers should be paid more since they could get paid a lot more in specialist jobs outside of Lecturing.

Apart from English lecturers and Film & TV lecturers
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Unread 11 May 2006, 23:18   #17
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
I was fully in support of the train driver strike until I needed to catch a train
I don't mind a strike during normal term, it's easy enough to catch up on one lecture - and indeed this has happened and has been the case for me, and I lived with it. Disrupting final exams is a different matter entirely.

So try:
I was fully in support of the train driver strike even though I missed a few trains, until the train I required to get to the job interview I desperately needed was canceled. And tens of thousands of other people also needed that train to get to an important job interview.


Metaphores are all well and good, but mislead easily.
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Unread 11 May 2006, 23:19   #18
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

I had an intersting conversation with my lecturer today about all of this, I thought it would all sort it self out by july ie when I graduate. But apparently no ;o

Basically he is the head examiner for our department he said that the university is doing "marking and parking" ie marking them just not releasing the results until the dispute comes to an end.

I asked him what was the chance of graduating from University of Kent in Canterbury Cathedral on 11th July he said less than 50% chance. Ill be quite interested what happens to be honest.

Im in full support of the lecturers though even though it looks as though I shall be one of the most affected.
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Unread 11 May 2006, 23:21   #19
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
I don't mind a strike during normal term, it's easy enough to catch up on one lecture - and indeed this has happened and has been the case for me, and I lived with it. Disrupting final exams is a different matter entirely.

So try:
I was fully in support of the train driver strike even though I missed a few trains, until the train I required to get to the job interview I desperately needed was canceled. And tens of thousands of other people also needed that train to get to an important job interview.


Metaphores are all well and good, but mislead easily.
I was in support of a war against facism until my only son died in it.
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Unread 11 May 2006, 23:22   #20
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
I had an intersting conversation with my lecturer today about all of this, I thought it would all sort it self out by july ie when I graduate. But apparently no ;o
It's a long term problem which has been ignored for years.

I'm not surprised that it will not be solved as soon as you want.
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Unread 11 May 2006, 23:25   #21
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

how old was he?
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Unread 11 May 2006, 23:29   #22
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
It's a long term problem which has been ignored for years.

I'm not surprised that it will not be solved as soon as you want.
I agree with you.

The thing is Academia in Britain has crossed the threshold in certain respects. They are now full on businesses. I assume this has been the case for many a year but with these new top up fees coming into place this only makes the fact even more aparent.

Its interesting in the last year my university has done a hell of a lot of upgrading and renovating the campus. I wonder, oh I wonder if perhaps the money they were expecting to get from top up fees has been spent on these upgrades et al and now they havent budgetted for the lecturers wages.

Obviously they must have forecast there expenditure etc.
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Unread 11 May 2006, 23:54   #23
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

students should stop voting for Labour if they are worried about this.

****ing tuition fees? Lecturers have never been paid nearly enough of what they're worth. Now students are having to pay more and the lecturers STILL aren't being paid what they're worth.

you're members of the NUS. Get them to voice your concerns to the government.
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Unread 11 May 2006, 23:55   #24
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

Nus is a joke
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Unread 12 May 2006, 00:00   #25
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stew
I can't stand strikers. Then again I hate trade unions, or at least when they become involved in wage negotiations.
exactly how do you suppose living wages should be achieved then?

you can complain about closed shops with some justification. complaining about trade unions or industrial action per se is fascist lunacy.
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Unread 12 May 2006, 00:00   #26
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
Nus is a joke
Agreed. The head of the guild here in Aber resigned in protest, even though her term ends in ~2 weeks. Trying to go out on a bang me thinks.

In lovely Aber there is apparently a contingency plan now in place but were not being told anything. We actually seem to get more information from the lovely people at the BBC than from the University

And tomorrow I should get confirmation of my first cancelled exam!
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Unread 12 May 2006, 00:00   #27
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
students should stop voting for Labour if they are worried about this.

****ing tuition fees? Lecturers have never been paid nearly enough of what they're worth. Now students are having to pay more and the lecturers STILL aren't being paid what they're worth.

you're members of the NUS. Get them to voice your concerns to the government.
Its ironic because a lot of students who are complaining about this probably also complained about topup fees which just goes to show most students/people are short-signted self-obssessed idiots with no clue about economics who shouldnt be allowed to vote.
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Unread 12 May 2006, 00:01   #28
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

I got a couple of similar e-mails over the passed two days, and i'm gonna be pissed if I have some exams canceled, and they cant even "make up" results for me since my course is spread over two schools and last semester were mostly eece modules and this semester is all CS modules.

waiting and hoping I wont be affected

My uni just said assume you wont be affected till you know different, but we dont know when this wil be...
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Unread 12 May 2006, 00:02   #29
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
Nus is a joke
I agree with Pig.
The sort of meetings one has to go through just to get one resolution passed is ridiculous.
The only thing it's good for is a 10% discount.
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Unread 12 May 2006, 00:06   #30
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

I wish my exams were cancelled, ****ing economics lecturers

Still they do have a pretty good point, compared to America they get paid poorly, if Britain wants a world class university system then it has to pay it academics at least as much as they'd earn lecturing elsewhere.
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Unread 12 May 2006, 00:06   #31
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
I was in support of a war against facism until my only son died in it.
You appear to be missing the point Steven.
Allow me to demonstrate again:

"I was in support of a war against facism until central command needlessly ordered tens of thousands of soldiers to their death, ignoring a viable alternative which would sustain minimal casualties."
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Unread 12 May 2006, 00:15   #32
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

IMHO people working in the public sector should just stfu when it comes to wages, yes maybe they dont get paid what they are worth but they choose to enter the public sector and were not forced into it. Upon making this decision they knew they were resigning themselves to living on a wage that is below thw value a private sector worker would get doing the same job and they hence shouldnt have the right to turn around and bitch about their wages. As long as it pays whats a livable wage that could support a regular family and that it rises above the rate of inflation then they have nothing to complain about.

The problem seems to be that most people decide to live above their means and decide luxieries like multiple flash cars are a basic human need and to live comfortably on a wage and have these luxieries means they need more. What they fail to realise is by giving in to their demands money is bein siphoned off from elsewjhere (normally meaning equipment cant be bought and such like) or taxes have to go upso they endup shooting themselves in the foot.
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Unread 12 May 2006, 00:18   #33
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stew
I agree with Pig.
The sort of meetings one has to go through just to get one resolution passed is ridiculous.
The only thing it's good for is a 10% discount.

I think it was in the hustings for NUS President that the NUS had an emergency motion passed to encourage students to vote for Chico in X Factor. Nice productive use of their time I thought.
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Unread 12 May 2006, 00:42   #34
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

No disruption to be as far as I know, it seems sciency lot aren't affected.
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Unread 12 May 2006, 00:44   #35
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
IMHO people working in the public sector should just stfu when it comes to wages
The problem is in my opinion that you can argue the sector is run more like a business now. Charging £3000 a year for home students and £10000 a year for international students is some serious money coming into a University. Why should the university pay people the same wage when they are now making three times the money? It doesnt make sense.

If Universities in Britain want to survive as reputable institutions (British Universities are still quite highly regarded across the world) then they need to be at the forefront of thinking, intelect and research. Now if you are a top academic and you are faced with being paid $100,000 plus in the USA or £30,000 in Britain (where the Universities are often under funded in comparison to its american counterparts and doesnt have as many resources to help with research etc) where would you choose?

There will be an intelectual drain from this country where by many top academics could go overseas to advance there research and be better paid. For people who are specialists in there subjects and are educating generations they are being treated like shit.

I believe the government looks down on the Public sector thinking it can bully it. I genuinely think that there is a lack of funding in the public sector for wages in Health, Education et al. For people who are specialists and providing a top class service they are looked down on and treated like shit. If they didnt have half a social conscience this country and many others would be ****ed.
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Unread 12 May 2006, 00:51   #36
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

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Originally Posted by meglamaniac
You appear to be missing the point Steven.
Allow me to demonstrate again:

"I was in support of a war against facism until central command needlessly ordered tens of thousands of soldiers to their death, ignoring a viable alternative which would sustain minimal casualties."
what's the viable alternative?
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Unread 12 May 2006, 00:54   #37
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

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Originally Posted by pig
If they didnt have half a social conscience this country and many others would be ****ed.
Well no. If they didnt have such a 'social conscience' then the system would have to change. People who tolerate being treated like shit are implicitly supporting a system where treating people like shit is acceptable. Its not especially praiseworthy.
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Unread 12 May 2006, 01:01   #38
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

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Originally Posted by pig
The problem is in my opinion that you can argue the sector is run more like a business now. Charging £3000 a year for home students and £10000 a year for international students is some serious money coming into a University. Why should the university pay people the same wage when they are now making three times the money? It doesnt make sense.

If Universities in Britain want to survive as reputable institutions (British Universities are still quite highly regarded across the world) then they need to be at the forefront of thinking, intelect and research. Now if you are a top academic and you are faced with being paid $100,000 plus in the USA or £30,000 in Britain (where the Universities are often under funded in comparison to its american counterparts and doesnt have as many resources to help with research etc) where would you choose?

There will be an intelectual drain from this country where by many top academics could go overseas to advance there research and be better paid. For people who are specialists in there subjects and are educating generations they are being treated like shit.

I believe the government looks down on the Public sector thinking it can bully it. I genuinely think that there is a lack of funding in the public sector for wages in Health, Education et al. For people who are specialists and providing a top class service they are looked down on and treated like shit. If they didnt have half a social conscience this country and many others would be ****ed.
The Uni fees in this country though are pocket change in comparision to many other nations. for example in the states. Ofc people in this country throw a fit when faced with even these small fees as we are used to the idea that free education is a right. If we want our Uni's to once again be up there with the best the world has to offer and have the best aceademics working at them then this has to change as something thats still majoritly funded by the state cant compete with the 'business's' that educational estalishments have become elsewhere in the world

And i'm sure the 3k probally helps and can be used to cover some wage increases but its not just in number and quality of acedemics where we are falling behind in but in infrastructure and resources and improvements in these areas need to be made using this fee also so its not like they have 3k per pupil to spend on wages alone

In this day and age where capatalism is king we cant expect to have well funded, top class public serices which are manned by the best in their field whom are being paid the wages they deserve as they simply arent compatable
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Unread 12 May 2006, 01:09   #39
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Well no. If they didnt have such a 'social conscience' then the system would have to change. People who tolerate being treated like shit are implicitly supporting a system where treating people like shit is acceptable. Its not especially praiseworthy.
I disagree. Many people who go into teaching, education in general and healthcare dont go in it for the money. They go in it for wanting to do something good. Its an important job and should be recognised with a decent wage (which some in the public sector get) I dont think teachers, nurses etc should be treated like shit because they want to do something other then sell there soul to capitalism. In fact they should be rewarded and be treated like the comodity they are.

Incidentally if they were treated well and like a comodity then there would be greater compertition for jobs in these sectors and these jobs would have more "kudos" asscociated with them. This in turn would mean we would get better teachers, nurses, doctors, lecturers, police etc because people would be getting the recognition and the wages they deserve. This can only be better for us as a country?

If we have a public sector which treats its employers like shit you will get less people entering the sector, less competition and so a smaller pool of talent going into the sector.

We dont have to sell our schools, hospitals and universities to Microsoft, GlaxoSmith Kline and McDonalds to ensure that these people get decent wages. If the government stopped fannying around with wars and increased taxes we could have a great social system.

Of course the argument you would throw back at me would be "if you tax people too high they will move to another country" However on the whole I disagree, you wouldnt see mass migration. An alternative could perhaps give public sector workers tax breaks or something.
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Unread 12 May 2006, 01:37   #40
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

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Originally Posted by Phang
what's the viable alternative?
As I said: to hold off action until the start of the new academic year.
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Unread 12 May 2006, 01:58   #41
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
I disagree. Many people who go into teaching, education in general and healthcare dont go in it for the money. They go in it for wanting to do something good. Its an important job and should be recognised with a decent wage
It should be recognised with a wage that is set by market value, just like everything else. Theres nothing intrinsically good about wanting to help people.

The problem is that when you are choosing a career path, you need to take all factors into consideration. It is an unfortunate fact that some industries in the UK have been socialised, and that if you enter them you will be working in an artificial environment that largely operates outside market forces. The result of this is that its highly unlikely that your pay will reflect your ability. If the system is set up so that (for instance) all nurses get paid $20000 a year, then you know before you decide to become a nurse that you will only be making $20000 a year - there will be very few opportunity to work for someone who pays you more money, because the state generally muscles out other employers. If you do not feel that this money reflects the value of the work you will do, then you should not choose this career. The only reason the government is able to get away with paying such a low wage is because people are willing to work for such a low wage.

In practice, there do tend to be opportunities for the more talented people to move into the private sector - for instance, the best academics may choose to go to America where their work is appreciated more, or the best doctors/dentists may focus on providing private health care, and so on. And again, if all talented people done this when the opportunity arose, then the system would either have to change, or the country would be left with sub-par services. But this is where the mythology of 'social consciousness' comes into play - people are brainwashed into believing that they have a duty to help others, and this often leads to them accepting being poorly treated and paid a sum which is far less than the value of their work. And it is precisely because they do this that the current system is able to maintain itself. If they simply refused to accept the bad treatment, then things would have to change.


edit: I'm talking explicitly about pay here, but I also mean working enviorment and the way youre treated in general. Salary is probably the most important thing in the sense that your pay gives you a direct, concrete indication of how much your employer values your work, not because people should always have 'making more money' as their primary goal or anything ridiculous like that.

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Unread 12 May 2006, 03:56   #42
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
The problem is in my opinion that you can argue the sector is run more like a business now. Charging £3000 a year for home students and £10000 a year for international students is some serious money coming into a University. Why should the university pay people the same wage when they are now making three times the money? It doesnt make sense.
I'd hazard a guess that RAE assessments, coupled with QAA audits and the vast amount of paperwork they produce, not to mention unnatural research release and employment patterns based around these things would have something to do with it...
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Unread 12 May 2006, 04:02   #43
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
....as something thats still majoritly funded by the state cant compete with the 'business's' that educational estalishments have become elsewhere in the world...
Business generally has the relatively short-term interests of it's shareholders in mind.

I can't see how this has much synergy with good research...

Perhaps some of the reason the situation we are seeing now is due to Universities being run more like businesses?
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Unread 12 May 2006, 04:25   #44
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chunderbunny
Business generally has the relatively short-term interests of it's shareholders in mind.

I can't see how this has much synergy with good research...

Perhaps some of the reason the situation we are seeing now is due to Universities being run more like businesses?
You mean like Princeton, MIT, Stanford, and the other top American private universities?
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Unread 12 May 2006, 04:57   #45
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
You mean like Princeton, MIT, Stanford, and the other top American private universities?
I wouldn't know, how are they funded?
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Unread 12 May 2006, 05:09   #46
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

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Originally Posted by Chunderbunny
I wouldn't know, how are they funded?
Numerous sources; tuition fees, alumni donations, research grants, corporate funding, various sideprojects, etc etc etc. The point is that the best research universities in the world do compete in a market-like environment and it doesnt seem to have done them much harm.
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Unread 12 May 2006, 05:42   #47
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Numerous sources; tuition fees, alumni donations, research grants, corporate funding, various sideprojects, etc etc etc. The point is that the best research universities in the world do compete in a market-like environment and it doesnt seem to have done them much harm.
That doesn't in any convince me that they are competing in a 'market-like' environment. Plus they're Americans, they do things differently over there. Who knows what goes on over yonder... They could still be hitting each other with tomahawks for all I know!

In any case, I'd hazard a guess your comparing apples to oranges.

My point is; perhaps a move to an auditing culture, undoubtedly influenced by American business ideology, is doing the UK educational system far more harm than good. And in any case, is making the lives of lecturers far harder, and their roles far more dilute than the traditional responsibilities of teaching and research.
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Unread 12 May 2006, 06:55   #48
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

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Originally Posted by wakey
IMHO people working in the public sector should just stfu when it comes to wages, yes maybe they dont get paid what they are worth but they choose to enter the public sector and were not forced into it.
This seems rather circular logic. Why should the public sector have lower wages than the private sector? Because of tradition? Why is it inherently a good thing that nurses, teachers and lecturers (or whomever else) be paid less in public bodies than private ones?

If we accept that for a good proportion of people, money (in our current system) is a highly motivating factor, setting public sector wages a lot lower than the private simply means you cannot attract the best people to the job. How on Earth could that be a good thing?
Quote:
....as something thats still majoritly funded by the state cant
This isn't a universal truth. The university I am enrolled at only receives something like 18% of it's funding direct from the state. The rest is fees, alumni donations, research funds, etc. 20 or so years ago it was 80%. Even accepting your (frankly absurd) argument that public sector wages should automatically be lower, let's try and be clear here.

The reactionary nonsense spouted here by yourself, stew & megla makes me kind of sick really.
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Unread 12 May 2006, 07:43   #49
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
but its not just in number and quality of acedemics where we are falling behind
We are not 'falling behind' anyone.

The quality of our academics is not in question. We are huge education 'exporter' this is because of the calibre of our academics.

The point here is that we do not pay them properly.

This is short sighted because at the moment we have something excellent (something which is recognised globally as excellent) and we shouldn't lose it simply because we can not be arsed to pay academics properly. Or because people like yourself are too stupid to understand the issues.
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Unread 12 May 2006, 08:12   #50
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Re: Yo students - AUT strike action

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Originally Posted by meglamaniac
"I was in support of a war against facism until central command needlessly ordered tens of thousands of soldiers to their death, ignoring a viable alternative which would sustain minimal casualties."
Ignoring that "striking at a time when they are most valuable" is the only tactic they can really use, I assume you're against every military action in history then. You certainly wouldn't have liked either of the World Wars.
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