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Unread 2 Apr 2017, 17:42   #1
Jintao
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R72 shipstats

Anyone fancy doing the r72 shipstats?

Oversight will be limited this round to promote diversity in AD/DC between rounds. Mostly the main targetting scheme will need to be approved.

Stats have to be ready and approve before R71 EORC starts
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Unread 2 Apr 2017, 20:29   #2
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Re: R72 shipstats

Has someone like Agar3s done the stats yet?

Someone who has a tactical brain like his would surely put a quality set together.
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Unread 3 Apr 2017, 14:22   #3
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Re: R72 shipstats

agar3s is a bot programmed to DC only
He would have no idea how to make stats
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Unread 3 Apr 2017, 16:05   #4
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Re: R72 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
Has someone like Agar3s done the stats yet?

Someone who has a tactical brain like his would surely put a quality set together.
agar3s tactical? please. There's a lot of luck involved
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Unread 3 Apr 2017, 17:01   #5
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Re: R72 shipstats

not my turn to make stats, im surprised that eksero hasn't volunteered to do a set
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Unread 3 Apr 2017, 17:15   #6
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Re: R72 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Paisley
not my turn to make stats, im surprised that eksero hasn't volunteered to do a set
That sounds like way too much effort for my liking
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Unread 3 Apr 2017, 18:53   #7
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Re: R72 shipstats

How about Xan only, to make up for the travesty this round?
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Unread 3 Apr 2017, 19:36   #8
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Re: R72 shipstats

Ok so we are all agreed Venox doesn't do stats!
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Unread 4 Apr 2017, 08:24   #9
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Re: R72 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
Ok so we are all agreed Venox doesn't do stats!
I'm all for all xan!
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Unread 4 Apr 2017, 17:07   #10
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Re: R72 shipstats

having a round of cloakers would be fun
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Unread 15 Apr 2017, 14:31   #11
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Re: R72 shipstats

Nobody has seemed particularly interested in them in the past but I am still happy to have my most recent proposed set as a possibility http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=201179
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Unread 16 Apr 2017, 22:44   #12
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Re: R72 shipstats

I might volunteer a set if there is no other takers
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Unread 17 Apr 2017, 10:28   #13
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Re: R72 shipstats

Just want to chip in and say I think this set rocks.
The extremely OP and broken emp of the past rounds is gone. Emp is stoppable atm, that's good.
Nice holes in every race, options for fakes all around due to shipcosts being in line and teamwork is rewarded.

imo it's the best set in ages. (altough some things can be improved, some rough edges etc).
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Unread 17 Apr 2017, 10:46   #14
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Re: R72 shipstats

That should surely have gone in http://pirate.planetarion.com/showth...96#post3255796

Unless you are advocating running the same set again next round?
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Unread 17 Apr 2017, 12:27   #15
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Re: R72 shipstats

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

I would need access to beta/speedgame to do emp and tweaking for the set.

I would aim for emp eff at 160% t1 and about 120% t2

It is a 5 race set with some nice options
The set is offensive in nature and alot of roiding options both for the individual and teaming up
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Unread 17 Apr 2017, 12:46   #16
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Re: R72 shipstats

Only emp out inits xan fi.
Only emp out inits xan fr.
How do you expect this not to be a massively xan heavy round?
Do you intend xan to be much more vulnerable to emp than other races?
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Unread 17 Apr 2017, 14:04   #17
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Re: R72 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

I would need access to beta/speedgame to do emp and tweaking for the set.

I would aim for emp eff at 160% t1 and about 120% t2

It is a 5 race set with some nice options
The set is offensive in nature and alot of roiding options both for the individual and teaming up
Please no same init emp again
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Unread 17 Apr 2017, 15:51   #18
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Re: R72 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji View Post
Only emp out inits xan fi.
Only emp out inits xan fr.
How do you expect this not to be a massively xan heavy round?
Do you intend xan to be much more vulnerable to emp than other races?
how do you expect xans to hold the roids?

xans are easily roided by ter bs, etd de and cr if the numbers are suffient, cath and zik frig, xan fi and xan frig
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Unread 17 Apr 2017, 15:51   #19
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Re: R72 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Sandvold View Post
Please no same init emp again
what do you suggest?
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Unread 17 Apr 2017, 17:02   #20
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Re: R72 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
how do you expect xans to hold the roids?

xans are easily roided by ter bs, etd de and cr if the numbers are suffient, cath and zik frig, xan fi and xan frig
I am not sure that is a very good answer. A lot of that depends on the emp values and is difficult to tell without them being in a calc. However as cat and etd cant really concentrate their fleets much more than xan presumably they will be very open to both xan fleets. So you are saying that xan is not op because it can roid everything, but cant be roided by everything?

I also am not wild about all emp being same initiative, it seems lazy, but in practice it is not nearly as bad as when you have killships of the same initiative. The outcome is simply many more occasions where both sides fully emp each other. It does take a tactical dimension out of the stats which I dont particularly like.

Overall I guess my biggest gripe is that they seem to me to be rather boring. They dont have any interesting idea to them (I know this is rather a big ask). Nothing to make me think 'oh I want to play next round if there is a set like this'.
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Unread 17 Apr 2017, 21:36   #21
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Re: R72 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji View Post
Unless you are advocating running the same set again next round?
They probably weren't, but I will: if the set is indeed good, then why not? No point taking unnecessary risks if we have a known-good set ready to go.

(Note the 'if'; I am not giving an opinion on the quality of the current set.)
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Unread 17 Apr 2017, 22:05   #22
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Re: R72 shipstats

You will never have everyone agree that they are an amazing set! They are certainly more balanced than many as there are several options that are working well (whether this is due to no cloak or low emp eff I am not sure).

However they are by no means perfect. No one has really tried bs this round so difficult to say if they are an option or not - and if someone was using it this would have a major knock on effect on cr which is quite good precisely because there is so little etd bs around. Co seems to be seriously underpowered; even app as an alliance that has gone all co without much in the way of any def ships is having trouble landing with them. This in turn implies that at least one of fr/fr/de is op in comparison to co - particularly fi with the spider firing before the beetle.
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Unread 18 Apr 2017, 13:16   #23
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Re: R72 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji View Post
That should surely have gone in http://pirate.planetarion.com/showth...96#post3255796

Unless you are advocating running the same set again next round?
I'm advocating running a set that takes the positives from the current set.

Quote:
xans are easily roided by ter bs, etd de and cr if the numbers are suffient, cath and zik frig, xan fi and xan frig
Can we please avoid another shit round where xan roids xan.
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Unread 18 Apr 2017, 13:55   #24
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Re: R72 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by berten View Post
I'm advocating running a set that takes the positives from the current set.
Yeah, it would be nice if a set of ship stats was like a puzzle that you can always put together perfectly, but it doesn't really work like that.

Instead, you get a whole bunch of puzzle pieces that don't really fit together. You try your best to make them into a nice picture anyway, but invariably, when you're 80% done, you will always be left with a bunch of oddly shaped holes that you can't fit any of your leftover puzzle pieces into. So you grab a hammer to force them in the best you can, just to get it finished. But you can't go back and say "that bit is clearly totally wrong, why didn't you pick a different piece?", because that was the best piece you had left, and if you'd picked another, some other piece would fit worse.

Unless you're talking about very abstract concepts, like how offensive or defensive a set is or whether 0-loss defense exists or not, you can't exactly cut and paste a set of stats together from the good bits of other sets.
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Unread 23 Apr 2017, 15:05   #25
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Re: R72 shipstats

In terms of doing a really offensive set, maybe another round of ST?

Or we could actually try to get a full MT round going, been a long time since we had this. Might end up more defensive though
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Unread 24 Apr 2017, 07:37   #26
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Re: R72 shipstats

I wonder whether a full mt set is possible now without being way too defensive. I guess you might be able to do it by having lots of ships with inconvenient t2 (where there is another ship covering it already) or really weak t2 (like where you have a ship t1 fi t2 de).

While st may be more in line with the times I can't say I like it as it always seems too formulaic. But then I have never liked ST and could use the excuse to skip a round.
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Unread 27 Apr 2017, 19:46   #27
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Re: R72 shipstats

too much naptarion for full mt stats different if there was more alliances going for the win at all costs
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Unread 2 May 2017, 02:26   #28
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Re: R72 shipstats

No news or updates on the stats front I take it?
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Unread 2 May 2017, 04:39   #29
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Re: R72 shipstats

So, question. I've never done stats, so I might be way off, but would it be possible to make a stat set like:

Ter: Heavy armor, expensive, fr/de/cr/bs only, no small ships
Cath: Light to Heavy, all ships have T3=all but with a low effective rate,
Xan: All light, cheap, fast. Fi/co/fr/de only, low armor to go with cheap price
Zik: steal only, heavy expensive ships like ter, t3=all like cath, but again low effective rate.
Etd: skips the round.

I like this idea (of course I would, right?) But have no idea how you all make stats, but maybe this general guideline is a good start, if not in time for round 72, perhaps a future round.

P.S. I accept that it may be a stupid idea and don't mind if you tell me to leave stats ideas to others
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Unread 2 May 2017, 10:00   #30
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Re: R72 shipstats

Alliances cannot survive without Fi/Co to deal with Fi/Co. Ter often suffers because their Fi/Co are not great. Losing that metaclass entirely will hurt a lot more. Losing Cr/Bs is much less harmful, though, Xan already often doesn't build any and performs fine.

T3 * is too strong, regardless of the effs.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 2 May 2017, 18:34   #31
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Re: R72 shipstats

No t3=all for any ship ever again.
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Unread 2 May 2017, 23:17   #32
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Re: R72 shipstats

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No t3=all for any ship ever again.
Lol okok, I get it, bad idea
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Unread 3 May 2017, 10:09   #33
BloodyButcher
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Re: R72 shipstats

Stats allready been decided.
PM your local statsmafia member to get the link.
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Unread 3 May 2017, 13:20   #34
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Re: R72 shipstats

I'm clearly not a member

Local statsmafia member please enlighten us!

However given I have not been told or asked anything, and that there were two options put forward I presume mine have been rejected in favour of Paisley's. It would be nice to get some feedback as to the reasoning behind the decision.

Local statsmafia member please enlighten me!
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Unread 4 May 2017, 09:30   #35
Paisley
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Re: R72 shipstats

im not a member of the stats mafia either it usually depends on the direcction that Jintoa wants to go.
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Unread 4 May 2017, 11:29   #36
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Re: R72 shipstats

Guess I'm also not a member, then.

In fact, it looks like the only person who's actually in the know is Butcher. And like a true mafioso, he wanted to show us he knew something, but didn't actually want to give up his position of privilege by sharing it with the rest of us.

I would just like to say (on behalf of all of us, I'm sure) we're mightily impressed down here.
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Unread 5 May 2017, 15:52   #37
Paisley
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Re: R72 shipstats

http://beta.planetarion.com/manual.p...n=655955737261 beta stats up
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Unread 5 May 2017, 17:51   #38
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Re: R72 shipstats

Ty for some of the changes. I guess these are being announced later as the stats to be. Are you likely to be making more changes? How worth commenting is it?
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Unread 5 May 2017, 18:14   #39
Paisley
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Re: R72 shipstats

input is welcome
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Unread 5 May 2017, 18:28   #40
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Re: R72 shipstats

Same init emp sux. Cath co looks op. Xan fi,fr look op damage wise. The only reasonable def vs all seems to be emp. Overall it's a complete opposite of this rounds stone, scissors, paper principle.
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Unread 5 May 2017, 21:02   #41
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Re: R72 shipstats

Oh ffs, we finally got rid of these insanely op emp effs and bam here they are again. U don't need 170% emp Eff to make emp worthwile
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Unread 5 May 2017, 21:12   #42
Paisley
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Re: R72 shipstats

after speaking to jintoa emps will be nerfed

edit - t1 nerfed to 150ish%
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Unread 5 May 2017, 21:17   #43
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Re: R72 shipstats

Also, the last times we had Xan roiding xan, this led to boring rounds that lost traction after 500 ticks. This set has 2 fleetclasses in Xan that do exactly this.
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Unread 5 May 2017, 21:53   #44
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Re: R72 shipstats

I put my money on:

50-60% of the universe Xan - roiding eachother..

a Cath CO player #1 with Score > Value*2
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Unread 10 May 2017, 19:21   #45
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Re: R72 shipstats

My suggestion on these:

Investor to CR T1 FR normal/cloak/ doesnt matter
Broker to CR t1 BS Emp

Shadow: Raise Init to 6
(You may have to adjust other inits to avoid same init firing but this change helps so much)

Barghest: Change from Emp



Still very a offensive set, but these changes help reign xan back in a little bit
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Unread 10 May 2017, 19:43   #46
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Re: R72 shipstats

What stops BS?
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Unread 10 May 2017, 21:41   #47
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Re: R72 shipstats

I made a first pass through paisley's set with my red marker. Biggest changes:

They are now a less offensive, but still offensive
Cat got a ship to prefire BS
ETD got a ship to prefire xan FR
Removed the zik De ship
Swapped a few T1/T2's around
AC/DC was balanced out (roughly)

Later this week i'll give them a 2nd pass over. Planned things:

ETD de pod cost doesn't match the other ETD de ships
Look at the SK's (too strong?)
Recheck the stats and even out the last kinks (fine tune ac/dc)
Nerf xan a tad
Give zik a small boost defensively
check out the zik fr fleet (too strong?)
Check emp
Does the locust t2 need a boost? (Weaker by design, but too weak?)

In the meantime all feedback is welcome
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Unread 10 May 2017, 23:41   #48
BloodyButcher
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Re: R72 shipstats

My suggestions shouldnt be taken as advice what to fix or not fix, as i think your initial approach when "giving feedbacks" on stats this round is completely wrong.



But.
Yeah, nice that xan FR is nerphed, atleast now it does look like an option i would not opt for.
Vindicator defence planets will be very nice to have, atleast if they were to be run like this i would tell our support planets to go for ETD and only build vindicators.
Lets say you decide to go for xan, and only build FI and FR, 25% value in Phantom, 25 in banshee etc.. and the defence planet of whatever alliance put all their stuff into vindicators, how are you gonna land attacks? Xan FR is stopped dead i guess, so even if you 3 fleeted your stuff one defence planet would force a recall on your real attack fleet wether its FI or FR, before starting to add in the base fleet of the planet getting attacked/defended.
Im sure all your matrises look nice, but how would you predict this would play out in a real round?
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Unread 11 May 2017, 05:43   #49
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Re: R72 shipstats

Zik fr prefires the vindicator, so no issue if you teamup. and it can still solo the 4 other races.

And i believe every race has a ship that fires at fi and fr. So faking with xan was always gonna be hard. You can still fake with pods though. It's something different. Xan doesn't always need to have the double fake advantage over everyone. Makes em too strong in most rounds.

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Unread 11 May 2017, 05:54   #50
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Re: R72 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
My suggestions shouldnt be taken as advice what to fix or not fix, as i think your initial approach when "giving feedbacks" on stats this round is completely wrong.



But.
Yeah, nice that xan FR is nerphed, atleast now it does look like an option i would not opt for.
Vindicator defence planets will be very nice to have, atleast if they were to be run like this i would tell our support planets to go for ETD and only build vindicators.
Lets say you decide to go for xan, and only build FI and FR, 25% value in Phantom, 25 in banshee etc.. and the defence planet of whatever alliance put all their stuff into vindicators, how are you gonna land attacks? Xan FR is stopped dead i guess, so even if you 3 fleeted your stuff one defence planet would force a recall on your real attack fleet wether its FI or FR, before starting to add in the base fleet of the planet getting attacked/defended.
Im sure all your matrises look nice, but how would you predict this would play out in a real round?
This could be said for any setup and def ship in the game so irrelevant point. If you have 50% value in FR and someone has 100% value in anti FR then high chance you ain't landing.

My suggestion would be that you take anti FI off the vindicator then it wouldn't be a complete can crusher. Fi could have a slight cost increase to hamper it in turn.

Paisley I like these stats

My only concern is Terran BS and how scarabs perform against it
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