Combat

[Gerbie]

oke I have to complain somewhere and this is the PA discussions forum so why not here. I could go to strategy, but most don't read it.

First of all go read Spinners post on combat, then come back.

What will you do now?

I will build one class of ship. Best way to attack. For defence: i know what to expect and can exchange def easily (def swapping).

The more specialized the ships's fire is the more effective def swapping is. And firing on one shipclass is pretty specialized. This will make defswapping so effective that attacking might be pretty hard.

An important tactic has always been limiting the amount of classes people build. Now this can be done even more effective (one class can give an effective attack fleet). With very few ships to choose from when attacking. What's there to 'pick' in your fleet for an attack? Where's the strategy? It's just a matter of picking the suitable target.

p.s. Was that thing where it would be benificial to have excess roids removed (farmed) made unattractive yet?

[Jonas]

as I said, I think the old system wich were developed over lots of rounds can't be exchanged with a system that they make "over the night" to time will tell

-Jonas-

[Dave]

Originally posted by Gerbie
p.s. Was that thing where it would be benificial to have excess roids removed (farmed) made unattractive yet?

Dunno if this post will be removed by an over zealous mod 'protecting' the vital secrets of the beta! heh

Farming to start with is pretty pointless to start with, as until you do something*, you are limited to the ammount of asteroids you will actually get resources from, making lots of roids simply pointless until you have done this something*.

*Could be a research, contruction, pleasuring an admin, find out for youself soon enough.

[Gerbie]

The point is that later in the game (in the payed universe), say I'm 5 mln with 1 k roids. While I can only mine say 600. I need to get rid of some roids. So when my fleet is out I ask someone who's 2 mln to attack me and release me of 400 roids. That will give him lots of score.
I will lose considerable planet value (and score?), but no income and ships and I can attack planets which are a lot smaller now plus every attack I do will give me more score then before, because of that same reduced planet value.
Ofc that 2 mln guy now has way too much roids. So he asks a guy...

[Tactitus]

Originally posted by Gerbie
The point is that later in the game (in the payed universe), say I'm 5 mln with 1 k roids. While I can only mine say 600. I need to get rid of some roids. So when my fleet is out I ask someone who's 2 mln to attack me and release me of 400 roids. That will give him lots of score.
I will lose considerable planet value (and score?), but no income and ships and I can attack planets which are a lot smaller now plus every attack I do will give me more score then before, because of that same reduced planet value.
Ofc that 2 mln guy now has way too much roids. So he asks a guy...

Sounds like farming to me.

[Spinner]

Originally posted by Gerbie
The point is that later in the game (in the payed universe), say I'm 5 mln with 1 k roids. While I can only mine say 600. I need to get rid of some roids. So when my fleet is out I ask someone who's 2 mln to attack me and release me of 400 roids. That will give him lots of score.
I will lose considerable planet value (and score?), but no income and ships and I can attack planets which are a lot smaller now plus every attack I do will give me more score then before, because of that same reduced planet value.
Ofc that 2 mln guy now has way too much roids. So he asks a guy...

Yes, it has always been the problem in Planetarion that big guys give their roids to smaller planets.

[Dworak]

Spinner gives his roids away all the time

[Spinner]

[quote]Originally posted by Gerbie
(Go read it, start of the thread)

And what is bad about what you are saying?
Yes, using a specilised fleet for capping is good against a target that hasnt specialised.
But it is also risky because it is easy to stop such an attacker.

Yes you are being forced to build more than 1 shiptype to survive, I should hope you agree this is a good thing !

Defense swapping is a good tactic, find out where yoru ships can be of the best use, and deploy them there. I dont see a problem with this either.

What exactly are you pointing your finger at here?

[at0mic.c0w]

Originally posted by Spinner
Yes you are being forced to build more than 1 shiptype to survive, I should hope you agree this is a good thing !

how, why and where ?

[Cochese]

Terrans have to build 2 shiptypes to survive

[Spinner]

Originally posted by at0mic.c0w
how, why and where ?

If you read the Combat details posted here on PD, and the beta update, quite a bit is revealed.
When you are completely open to lose roids to ships you do not target, it shoudl be self evident that you would want more kinds of ships, to cover up more kinds of enemy ships.

As for where..??
I am not sure Where applies here.

[Jorinn]

Originally posted by Spinner
Yes, it has always been the problem in Planetarion that big guys give their roids to smaller planets.

hmm, don't think that's the point he was making.

Of course I could be wrong.

[Spinner]

Originally posted by Jorinn
hmm, don't think that's the point he was making.

Of course I could be wrong.

I have no idea what he meant if he didnt use his example to point towards "abuse" of the system.
And if anyone wants to "abuse" it by giving roids to smaller planets..and practice farming in the same go....

If that wasnt his point, then I didnt see one.

[KoeN]

you guys are confusing me.

[Spinner]

Want to test it, rather than simply discuss it?

[Makhil]

"Some race-balancing must be done in relation to this, and a few things have been done already. I urge you to check the STATS link, as there are some changes there, both with targetting and the PRICES, which changes the Roid Ratios for some races".
--------

Where can i find this 'stats link' ?

[Gerbie]

Originally posted by Makhil

Where can i find this 'stats link' ?

On the beta forum.

[LordNieminen]

spinner, he's meaning that we'll still all build one ship class alone.. and specialize our targetting to those targets what can't stop that fleet type..

if we need defence, we swap it ingal.. or ask alliance what certainly has a player specialized in killing the fleet combo what our attacker is using.

There's no forcing here to build multiple ship classes... it's like i had anti-xan fleet last round.. cathaar with fi's and only some bw's+pods.. Could not hit anything else than xan's nor could not cover myself against anyone else.. so ingal def swap and alliance(bg) def saved me every time i got incoming..(from xan's too.. due to ldk attackers where always xan's) will play same gamestyle in paX too, aka specialising in certain shiptype... will be strong in offence and weak in defence, though i can always easily save ally from attackers if attacker happens to use same fleet combo what my fleet targets.

[Baco]

Getting defence this round won't be easy due to eta's, so building only one type of ships won't work imo....but I can be wrong.

Originally posted by Cochese
Terrans have to build 2 shiptypes to survive

Have I missed something?

[Cochese]

Terran Cruisers and Battleships target every ship class and structures, and CR/BA class ships are relatively under-targetted compared to FI/FR class...so there's little need to build anything else.

Since ETA's are the same for all ships, and bigger is generally better, the question answers itself.

[Spinner]

I wouldnt be so sure that all tagretting stats etc stay as they are from this point on.
We're nailing the new system now, the stats will be overhauled more during the signup phase, no doubt.

[Cochese]

Well it was more a comment of "right now, you only need..." rather than fully anticipating to see these *exact* stats in the final version

[zenopus]

Originally posted by Spinner
And if anyone wants to "abuse" it by giving roids to smaller planets..and practice farming in the same go....

This sort of implies that if a large planet decides to voluntarily let a smaller planet take some roids - although this is by definition farming - it will not get the planets involved closed.

Size is relative though.

If enough roids change hands, who is the biggest could change... And then they could repeat the whole thing, again and again - but I suspect doing that could get planets involved closed.

[Scouse]

Originally posted by Cochese
Terran Cruisers and Battleships target every ship class and structures, and CR/BA class ships are relatively under-targetted compared to FI/FR class...so there's little need to build anything else.

Since ETA's are the same for all ships, and bigger is generally better, the question answers itself.

I've been wondering who gave you the authority to talk so freely about the beta in public for the last week or two. You were given the privilege of testing the beta, surely you should know that you shouldn't be talking about it away from the beta boards.


Yes I know Spinner has been making announcements, but you keep adding that little bit more, your 'whinge' thread first brought this to my attention, and you still keep going on and on about it now.


There are beta boards for a reason. Use them.

[Gerbie]

Sometimes I'm glad I'm not in the beta. A few more remarks here:

A few more remarks from my side:
the way I understand it defence is the best way to acquire score. I don't see why an alliance would not want it's members to be attacked easily (because they have only 1 class of ship, that doesn't cover all classes). And be defended with even more ease.

This also implies that ships should not be very different in strength. As a 5% better ship leads to a 5% higher growth in score, without shipstats anounced it would be rather unfair to have the one that picked the right ship win the game.

If bashing will be made unattractive then the 20% rule should go. The need to keep it only shows that the combat system doesn't function the way it should.

More like a question here. If I am 100k and I send my fleet to suicide at the #1 (planet value-wise) who's 100 mln.: will I do damage and therefor get loads of score for every scratch I make?

[Cochese]

Originally posted by Scouse
I've been wondering who gave you the authority to talk so freely about the beta in public for the last week or two. You were given the privilege of testing the beta, surely you should know that you shouldn't be talking about it away from the beta boards.


Yes I know Spinner has been making announcements, but you keep adding that little bit more, your 'whinge' thread first brought this to my attention, and you still keep going on and on about it now.


There are beta boards for a reason. Use them.

Scouse, you're not Spinner, and you're not my dad.

Know what that means?

Shut the **** up.

[Scouse]

Originally posted by Cochese
Shut the **** up.

How ironic.

[Cochese]

Originally posted by Scouse
My arrogance is second only to Theamion and my ignorance is bar none!

[Kal]

Originally posted by Gerbie
Sometimes I'm glad I'm not in the beta. A few more remarks here:

A few more remarks from my side:
the way I understand it defence is the best way to acquire score. I don't see why an alliance would not want it's members to be attacked easily (because they have only 1 class of ship, that doesn't cover all classes). And be defended with even more ease.

This also implies that ships should not be very different in strength. As a 5% better ship leads to a 5% higher growth in score, without shipstats anounced it would be rather unfair to have the one that picked the right ship win the game.

If bashing will be made unattractive then the 20% rule should go. The need to keep it only shows that the combat system doesn't function the way it should.

More like a question here. If I am 100k and I send my fleet to suicide at the #1 (planet value-wise) who's 100 mln.: will I do damage and therefor get loads of score for every scratch I make?

i tried sucicinding and i lsot score - its a bad idea

i find you get mroe score form attacking and defending

the technique of only building one ship class will make u a good target to attack - this means that your allaince will ahve to do mroe work to defend you - if your whoel alliance does this then... well your alliance will be the best target out there.

With variablee universe etas etc then it will be well worth having some ships of all ship class as u never know what will be needed for defence.

The key really will be that each alliance has a perfect balance of races, so that they should allways be able to get hold of some ships of the correct eta to target the correct ships.


I think overall the new pa makes defence hard and attacking easier.... this is something i like.

[Scouse]

Originally posted by Cochese
-nonsense-

You so fly.

[QazokRouge5]

Originally posted by Scouse
You so fly.

Hi Scouse.

Join me for a cup of tea fly bwoi.

[Chax]

Originally posted by KalVirtus
The key really will be that each alliance has a perfect balance of races, so that they should allways be able to get hold of some ships of the correct eta to target the correct ships.

Naah, the shrewd alliance will only have one shipclass in the whole alliance but will still be able to target all classes with it. This means defense swapping against a raid by that alliance is impossible and that defenders will take less losses when fighting a mixed targetting attacking fleet.

[Chax]

Originally posted by Chax
Naah, if I Xanadu had still existed and I was still HC I would hold a vote on what race to pick and tell everyone to pick that race. Which race is irrelevant. We would only have one shipclass in the whole alliance but will still be able to target all classes with it. This means defense swapping against us would be impossible and that when we defend we will take less losses when fighting a mixed targetting attacking fleet.

[General Martok]

Hmm i doubt the stats-makers are so stupid that one class targets all ships? So if everyone takes the same shipclass and race, wouldn't that mean that your ENTIRE alliance has a giant opening for one shipclass? /me would love to attack that one then

[Chax]

Originally posted by General Martok
Hmm i doubt the stats-makers are so stupid that one class targets all ships? So if everyone takes the same shipclass and race, wouldn't that mean that your ENTIRE alliance has a giant opening for one shipclass? /me would love to attack that one then

Providing that your first assumption is correct, then the second and third will certainly follow. However I wouldn't place any money on your first assumption. Xandathrii have previously been able to target everything perfectly well with only fighters, I don't see any reason that the powers that be would change that.

[Spinner]

Well, considering the facts:

- No class has more than 3 + 1 ships in a single shipclass, and we have 5 shipclasses, I dont see how it is possible to target all classes with just 1 shipclass.

- The + 1 is for the special ship that each race has, which is specilised in taking out structures, its not very good on regular ship to ship combat.

- The race that can target most things with 1 shipclass, is , oh whaddayaknow, all 4 races! All 4 races have a max of 3 target classes in any one class.

Chax, stop being so negative and open your eyes please, it is possible to be a critic AND positive / constructive at the same time

[Gerbie]

If the targetting is different for 2 races, then you will probably be able to do with 2 races. (Although having different targetting for different races would also make the game unneccessarily complicated, so I don't expect that to happen.)

[Chax]

Originally posted by Spinner
Chax, stop being so negative and open your eyes please, it is possible to be a critic AND positive / constructive at the same time

I wasn't negative. I was just stating what I would do if I was alliance HC in a universe with only T1 and no t2 random. I had no idea there were 5 shipclasses btw, or that a bomber existed.

What exactly was negative in my post?

[Spinner]

Originally posted by Chax
Providing that your first assumption is correct, then the second and third will certainly follow. However I wouldn't place any money on your first assumption. Xandathrii have previously been able to target everything perfectly well with only fighters, I don't see any reason that the powers that be would change that.

The stat makers are stupid....says it all doesnt it?
Not the best of positive compliments I have seen in my life.

[Chax]

Originally posted by Spinner
The stat makers are stupid....says it all doesnt it?
Not the best of positive compliments I have seen in my life.

I never said that, you did. Being able to target everything with 1 class isn't necessarily a bad thing, it depends on other things wether that's good or bad. Things we know nothing of, due to stats being secret.

[Tietäjä]

Originally posted by Chax
I wasn't negative. I was just stating what I would do if I was alliance HC in a universe with only T1 and no t2 random. I had no idea there were 5 shipclasses btw, or that a bomber existed.

What exactly was negative in my post?

I am quite astonished at the fact that there are 5 shipclasses too, and I've been doing the beta.

Although. Very idle last weekend.

I do agree with cochese to a certain extent. I would (will, depends) go for terran cr/bs, although with the fact that stats will be tweaked (likely mutilated), it's no use planning on some Elysium (hi there) stored battlereports or any hunches alike.

[Al_zz]

Originally posted by Tietäjä
I am quite astonished at the fact that there are 5 shipclasses too, and I've been doing the beta.

Although. Very idle last weekend.

I do agree with cochese to a certain extent. I would (will, depends) go for terran cr/bs, although with the fact that stats will be tweaked (likely mutilated), it's no use planning on some Elysium (hi there) stored battlereports or any hunches alike.

Keizari, you are more of a forums tester than a combat tester anyways

hAl