PA giving "official" tools private dumps.

[Bashar]

Originally posted by Chax
Tahmer's site was THE SITE!

I don't know of it, it was probably before my time, but sandmans is widely accepted to be the one that had the most effect on the area.

[Bashar]

Originally posted by Norseman
heh.. show some respect to the ppl debating this issue and either contribute or **** off

lol

[MrBrick]

Originally posted by Bashar
You are arguing against yourself here.

You are suggesting it is being done to improve sales, yet you say it makes little difference. I am not sure which side of the contradiction you are aiming for. Although, as I stated in my post, I was agreeing with you, so I also fail to see why you suggest I was arguing against you, another contradiction that has me baffled

I'm really not that fussed about your opinion. I'm just here because you seem to have the soul intention of stirring for no reason. Picking holes for no real reason. A reason which you will NEVER justify to me, as I'm a stubborn bigot.



Why argue over something so petty? It makes no difference to the actual primary function of the external Tools. You cant gain anything from the PA Tools site that isnt either in "public dumps" or available on the Galaxy screen.

[Bashar]

Originally posted by MrBrick
I'm really not that fussed about your opinion. I'm just here because you seem to have the soul intention of stirring for no reason. Picking holes for no real reason. A reason which you will NEVER justify to me, as I'm a stubborn bigot.



Why argue over something so petty? It makes no difference to the actual primary function of the external Tools. You cant gain anything from the PA Tools site that isnt either in "public dumps" or available on the Galaxy screen.

My god, you seem to read but ignore. As I have said, my arguments have not been about the official tools! I have only given my opinions on other peoples arguments, and if you find this to be petty, then why are you posting anything here? It is a discussion board, you post things as an invitation to others to get their views, if the matter is petty, then your posts are also petty, and as such, you are insulting yourself as much as you are insulting me.

Also, if you are not fussed about my opinion, then why the hell are you responding to it?

[MrBrick]

Originally posted by Bashar
Why do I get the feeling that this is an argument borne of stubborness rather than rational thought and your true opinions? I sense a deep sarcasm.

No doubt you are now gonna tell me I am talking crap though

I found that amusing.

[Sakera]

keep on topic please. Making this a flame thread is rader rude towards the point this thread witsh to bring out.

[Bashar]

Originally posted by MrBrick
I found that amusing.

Hehe, I see the irony actually, my suggesting that about you is probably the same suggestion you would make about me. And I suppose that, technically, both arguments are just as valid on that matter, but I still stand by what I said, as you gave the distinct impression that you are arguing purely for the sake of it. Your post almost suggested as much (to me anyway).

[A2]

Originally posted by Sakera
keep on topic please. Making this a flame thread is rader rude towards the point this thread witsh to bring out.

[MrBrick]

I'm inclined to agree with you. I maybe argueing for the sake of it.
But I like to think my posts show some kind of positive representation and realism. I have yet to see any real arguement as to why PA Tools using a different dump is wrong.

[Chax]

Originally posted by Stress
By spesifically giving one toolsite a clear advantage ower the others. Is not benefishial to annyone. It only stagnates development on the tool sites.

Stagnating development on non official toolkits could be the point to this.

Originally posted by Stress
Why should the experianced 'alliance' coders bother to delvelop tools to suit the needs then. If they know that they will be ower run by somone given the advantage.

Why would PA want alliances with good coders to have advantages over the others? Obviously the really good stuff is used in alliance only, and mere tidbits made public to gather info.

Originally posted by Stress
On a side note, the other tools are WAY better then the ofishial ones, and they most likely would continue to be. IF they where given the same oppertunety as the 'offishial' ones are. IT is sad to se that 'PA' works against its contributors, and not with them.

Precisely the point, by having an official tool as the only one with all the info, more newbies are drawn away from the grasp of alliance hosted sites that abuse their dependence on those sites to gather info

[Bashar]

Originally posted by MrBrick
I'm inclined to agree with you. I maybe argueing for the sake of it.
But I like to think my posts show some kind of positive representation and realism. I have yet to see any real arguement as to why PA Tools using a different dump is wrong.

May I just say "touche" and point out that I have yet to see any real argument as to why PA Tools using a different dump is right.

I have seen arguments for both, and I would be inclined to say that the arguments for it being the same dump have, to me, seemed stronger and better thought out.

The arguments for have actually provided little/no support for themselves other than going along the lines of "Because that is how it is", and in a discussion like that, I don't see that to be constructive. That is kinda the point I have been trying to make, just in a rather long-winded way.

So I think MrBrick, that you and I could happily agree that the thread has actually proved of little value to the whole discussion in that it has provided little support for either side, and has been just blind opinion stating, which is the point I have been trying to put accross.

[Bashar]

Originally posted by Chax
Obviously the really good stuff is used in alliance only, and mere tidbits made public to gather info.

I don't agree with this. I am 99% sure that Sandmans was fully public, and that nothing else was passed to fury.

[K-W]

Originally posted by Bashar
I don't agree with this. I am 99% sure that Sandmans was fully public, and that nothing else was passed to fury.

Sandman's was fully public, the only part that was used by fury was when we listed intel on it on our enemies, but that was a strategic info release, not info gathering. We never had any info on what people parsed or searched. Ive not myself seen proof that anyone has done this. Ive heard rumors like everyone. The fact is, that it is possible, so the ideal tool would be an official tool that was also the best tool.

[Chax]

Originally posted by Bashar
I don't agree with this. I am 99% sure that Sandmans was fully public, and that nothing else was passed to fury.

And I'm 100% sure that noone could be 100% sure there wasn't. An official parser site reduces overall anxiety in the universe.

1. Less worrying about wether parsing the sector scans of a Fury gal on sandman, or an Ely gal on Pilkara or using the Virus toolkit to parese a =V= gal causes a red light to flash on the webbies of the alliances associated with those toolkits warning of impending incoming.

2. Less worrying wether parsing a unit scan of an attacker alerts the attackers of possible defense without any newsscans being available.

3. Less worrying wether using a battlecalc might either alert the owner of the target that an attack is on the way or letting them know exactly what's coming before even mil scans exist?

4. Less worrying about wether the IP of BC's using the parsers are matched with IP's gathered in public alliance channels to find out that alliances plans for the day.

5. Any other fantasy of an ex Xanadu HC's paranoid delusions.

[Stress]

Originally posted by Chax
Stagnating development on non official toolkits could be the point to this.

Why would PA want alliances with good coders to have advantages over the others? Obviously the really good stuff is used in alliance only, and mere tidbits made public to gather info.

Precisely the point, by having an official tool as the only one with all the info, more newbies are drawn away from the grasp of alliance hosted sites that abuse their dependence on those sites to gather info

sadly you are wrong on all accounts. my entire point is based around the fact, that the features u se NOW, is purly due to outside coders. That is allso a fact ont he 'offishial tools'
The ideas implimented now, and what we seem to think of as standard. Are there because of hard work, and a lot of thought from the developers of the tools... Ower time...

thus, Planetarion now alows themselves to feast uppon other ideas, and that is not nessesarely a bad thing. BUT wile doing so, allso gains an advantage, in having more innformation avaliable to them. Not encurraging the tool sites as we know them to day, to have anny further development. Is not helping. Think about it. Do u really argue, that Mit alone will do as good a job, in adding more features. As for instance the virus/Ely/nos tech teams can?

The answer is a simple NO, there are a lot of features still possible to immplement in the tool sites. some of these are allrdy made, but still being tested. (pilkara v3)


To your other points, alliances usually do not need that amount of information. That we need anny more advanced tools then the ones available to uss. Perhaps in other areas yes. But they arent based, uppon dump files, about that i can asure u. Naturally alliances gather innfo. But there are far more effishiant ways to do so then by trying to sort random ppl clicking a site. that delivers far more hits, then anny alliance can keep track of, not to mention prossess. to give anny stats. I do not know the exact number of hits on pilkara a day. im told an avarage day is 50 000. pages <-- (edited inn)

Basically the Tool site is a free of charge service. deleveoped ower time. By coders that take pride intheir work, for the communety. Now they se themselves, knocked down at their knees. When they are the ones that have helped develop the frame and the basis of what now are 'tools'

[starbreeze]

hmm...

BUSH: yes we have WMD. Yes we use them. Ofc we will never abuse the use of them. However, no one we deem "unacceptable" can have them
...why?
Because they will abuse them!
...and we know this how?
......THEY WILL!!!

i really don't see why PA can't just give out the dumps. One way or another, the other tools will get them...either from dump or just from the "official" tools. Why not let them have it?

[Bashar]

Originally posted by Chax
And I'm 100% sure that noone could be 100% sure there wasn't. An official parser site reduces overall anxiety in the universe.

1. Less worrying about wether parsing the sector scans of a Fury gal on sandman, or an Ely gal on Pilkara or using the Virus toolkit to parese a =V= gal causes a red light to flash on the webbies of the alliances associated with those toolkits warning of impending incoming.

2. Less worrying wether parsing a unit scan of an attacker alerts the attackers of possible defense without any newsscans being available.

3. Less worrying wether using a battlecalc might either alert the owner of the target that an attack is on the way or letting them know exactly what's coming before even mil scans exist?

4. Less worrying about wether the IP of BC's using the parsers are matched with IP's gathered in public alliance channels to find out that alliances plans for the day.

5. Any other fantasy of an ex Xanadu HC's paranoid delusions.

NOBODY has suggested that there shouldn't be an official parser (to my knowledge), only that there should be a choice of which one to use, with all having equal opportunity in db dump access, in which case your whole point is actually dealt with anyway naturally, as the official one would still exist, and people would have the choice of using it.

[Chax]

Originally posted by Stress
Do u really argue, that Mit alone will do as good a job, in adding more features. As for instance the virus/Ely/nos tech teams can?

The answer is a simple NO, there are a lot of features still possible to immplement in the tool sites. some of these are allrdy made, but still being tested. (pilkara v3)

No I don't argue that, I'm sure that out of 5000 PA players there will be a load that can and would make a better job of it. This is totally beside the point.

The point is that PA might not want there to be tools that are all that good.

It could well be that they are trying to slowly phase out the unofficial tools by slowly giving the official ones more info and thus more features to adapt the playerbase into accepting the coming built in alliances more readily.

[Bashar]

Originally posted by Chax
No I don't argue that, I'm sure that out of 5000 PA players there will be a load that can and would make a better job of it. This is totally beside the point.

The point is that PA might not want there to be tools that are all that good.

It could well be that they are trying to slowly phase out the unofficial tools by slowly giving the official ones more info and thus more features to adapt the playerbase into accepting the coming built in alliances more readily.

I wish to claim this to not be the case. From Mit's own admittance, the creators/jolt have no access to the code, and so they do not control the content. It is the same as one coded independently of the creators pretty much, just a question of preference on their part as to who writes it.

[Stress]

Originally posted by Chax
No I don't argue that, I'm sure that out of 5000 PA players there will be a load that can and would make a better job of it. This is totally beside the point.

The point is that PA might not want there to be tools that are all that good.

It could well be that they are trying to slowly phase out the unofficial tools by slowly giving the official ones more info and thus more features to adapt the playerbase into accepting the coming built in alliances more readily.

So your argument is :
1.Planetarion does not want to please its community?

2. Planetarion does not think that the reason they can easely develop the tools as they do now. Is becasue of pre made frames, based on OTHERS hard work?

3. Planetarion does not want 'good' tools. Yet still make tools as similar as possible to pre known tools. Made by outside coders.

where is your logic?

[Chax]

Originally posted by Stress
So your argument is :
1.Planetarion does not want to please its community?

2. Planetarion does not think that the reason they can easely develop the tools as they do now. Is becasue of pre made frames, based on OTHERS hard work?

3. Planetarion does not want 'good' tools. Yet still make tools as similar as possible to pre known tools. Made by outside coders.

where is your logic?

1. Planetarion might prefer pleasing the majority of the players over the miniscule part of the community that develop tools. Planetarion might believe that the availability of said tools are detrimental to the overall development of the game.

2. I don't think Mit's work or job description is relevant to what we are discussing.

3. Yes of course, give the people what they're used to to draw them away from ely and virus et al. Then once people are used to the official site slowly remove the DB dumps to limit alliance tools and change what is available as official to being in game only thus further promoting in game alliances.

What has logic ever had to do with how Spinner runs PA?

[Shev]

Originally posted by Stress
So your argument is :
1.Planetarion does not want to please its community?

2. Planetarion does not think that the reason they can easely develop the tools as they do now. Is becasue of pre made frames, based on OTHERS hard work?

3. Planetarion does not want 'good' tools. Yet still make tools as similar as possible to pre known tools. Made by outside coders.

where is your logic?

That was not his argument.
What you have stated are conclusions based on his argument that can be drawn depending on your point of view.

He merely speculated that perhaps PA wanted to encourage the gamers to use the official tools, which Bashar has since refuted.

I also think it's a little unfair to dismiss the official tools for this round as not good, before they have been released etc.

[Stress]

Originally posted by Chax

3. Yes of course, give the people what they're used to to draw them away from ely and virus et al. Then once people are used to the official site slowly remove the DB dumps to limit alliance tools and change what is available as official to being in game only thus further promoting in game alliances.

What has logic ever had to do with how Spinner runs PA?

just for the sake of argument. If ely wanted to extract DB dumps every hours of the universe. Do u not think we would be capable ?

[Stress]

Originally posted by Shev

I also think it's a little unfair to dismiss the official tools for this round as not good, before they have been released etc.

actually i have ben 'so lucky' to se screenshots of atleast the earlier versions of them. So my thoughts of them are based uppon just that.

edit: besides at no point have the tools ben dismissed. The issue is that development of further features will stagnate. And with it the option to choose. Not to mention, that they draw uppon previous development. And in the same prosess, are freely given an advantage. I will be surprised if the 'new tools' contribute to annything new, not based on the extended dump files

[swollen plums]

Originally posted by K-W
Sandman's was fully public, the only part that was used by fury was when we listed intel on it on our enemies, but that was a strategic info release, not info gathering. We never had any info on what people parsed or searched. Ive not myself seen proof that anyone has done this. Ive heard rumors like everyone. The fact is, that it is possible, so the ideal tool would be an official tool that was also the best tool.

thats not actually fully correct
sandmans site was 99.9% public
but yes sand did have the ability to log usege of the parse etc
therfore high usage of the parse on fury gals would have stood out to him
however
sandman being the ultimate lazy arse that he was,really couldnt be bothered to keep track
only in extreme circumstances did it ever come up and that was generally when the whole community already knew about whatever was going on
the option was never made available to Fury
because sandman was the only one that had full acess to the site

[CamelToe]

At least they could have picked someone with a sense of style, and coding ability to do the OFFICIAL dumps... the ones now are anything but classy. PA Crew, contact me.. and I'll think about showing you the good stuff.

[mist]

first, i got bored after the first page, and it seemed to be getting towards trolling anyway, so this might already have been said. if so, sorry.

first off, why has this just become relevant?
personally, i only noticed a couple of weeks ago, when i was looking through something with pbot and noticed that it had ministerial positions. i'd never seen them before, so i asked where they came from as none of the db dumps i'd seen had them in. dunno where everyone else noticed from.

why is it relevant?
planetarion is about communities. i don't think i need to start citing evidence to back that up, or to point out that without the communities there would be a lot few people playing planetarion. i'm going to go with ely/pilkara as an example. i think pretty much everyone believes that pilkara saves scans. assuming it does, that's useful for ely, as it means that their members don't need to be mailing them, or something like, news scans so that they can gather intellegence. for this reason ely want their members to use pilkara rather than patools. i'd imagine most other alliance tools are in the same situation, ely have just made theirs public.

by not giving pilkara the extra database dumps pa is trying to draw people to their official tools. if ely want their members to keep passing on their scans then they're either going to have to get them to use both the patools and pilkara, or tell them not to use the pa tools, which have more information.

to me that's planetarion trying to annoy their players, to annoy the community they depend on. ie, planetarion being stupid.

tbh, i'm not totally sure what people would want the ministers and pictures for, to me this is just an example of the frankly crap public relations of planetarion. when i asked the CH question it was to make a point, rather than to actually get an answer, as i'd already asked it and being given this pathetic "because it's official" excuse before. at the end of the day, i think it comes down to planetarion not caring about the community that sustains it.

the upshot of it all?
as someone pointed out right at the start of this thread, it is possible to get the databases from the pa tools, by browsing every page and parsing the needed information out of it. odds are i'll be hosting the db dumps on my webspace just for the hell of it.

of course this is going to cost whoever hosts the tools bandwidth, as all the alliances start ripping pages off teh site every hour. as the tools were origonally wrote as netgamers tool, and there's a netgamers dns entry for them will netgamers be paying the bandwidth costs for planetarion's arrogance?

-mist

[mist]

Originally posted by Stress
just for the sake of argument. If ely wanted to extract DB dumps every hours of the universe. Do u not think we would be capable ?

of couse you'd be capable, i can't see it taking more than an hour to bodge something together in perl that'll spew out the database, just a case of finding out what format the origonal's in

but, at least for me, that's not the point. the point is that pa's ****ting on its community, on its customers

[CamelToe]

Originally posted by Allfather
The nos tools webbie look awfull though

NoS has tools?

[kaos]

Originally posted by mist

[...]
tbh, i'm not totally sure what people would want the ministers and pictures for, to me this is just an example of the frankly crap public relations of planetarion. when i asked the CH question it was to make a point, rather than to actually get an answer, as i'd already asked it and being given this pathetic "because it's official" excuse before. at the end of the day, i think it comes down to planetarion not caring about the community that sustains it.
[...]

Well, the point is not really about the galpics but about the ministers (for me). As i don't like ingame browsing, because i know many ppl use tools in their galpic to find unknown access to predetect attacks with that (and this works really well ...)
If you now release that info to everyone, there is the ability to see the ministers (sometimes important for attack planning, because those get usually a bit more def ) without having to worry about anyone noticing it (oh, and you could do nice things, that nobodoy needs like minister ranks, etc )

[kaos]

Originally posted by CamelToe
NoS has tools?

http://fribbler.nos-hq.com ?!

[Paine]

Originally posted by [Racer]
Whatever Pa Crew will make it will fold anyway,
nothin they have created have lasted more then a half round or so...

Why is it so..

well when somethin is made by ppl who care then it develops,
when it is developed by someone that just do it because they have to it gets old, non updated and ****ty.


Just take alook on the portal and so on..


Ps.

Planetarion wuld be nothin without the alliances,
and by doing this its one more reason to no bother to
develop anything, since its NOT appreciated.


Official tools.. baaah

Kiss my big thooe,
GET PA RUNNING BEFORE TRYING TO DO ANY OTHER THING !!!

Amen...



Paine

[Telest]

Originally posted by Bashar
Hotmail base their code on email, yahoo base theirs on email. Hotmail was exclusively developed on email. The PA toolkits were exclusively developed on the pa dumps - so, should whoever created the whole idea of email restrict it's capabilities to yahoo, but give microsoft extra capabilities within email itself? If so, then emails from hotmail would be frequently incompatible with yahoo, and as such, could only be read through hotmail.

I don't think your argument is a good illustration tbh.

If it gave them concrete benefit, then they definitely should do it. It is a choise and had nothing to do with fairness, although the choise might be deemed unfair.

Back to some free-market issue mentioned before. If company F chooses to favour company A over B or C, what's there unfair about it, if company F believes this is in their best interest. In free market economy A, B and C could all compete for this position, as is the situation now. Whether the chances of companies B or C were ever "real" or whether the decision of A over B or C was made on "fair" arguments is no really an issue.

Planetarion has chosen a site to call official (not "official"). It is within their rights to make the choise, and in doing so they have to weigh pros against cons. It is not about fair or unfair. In this case, it is weighing the benefits of having an official toolkit with privileged dumps against negative effects such as this community cryout (because of what was deemed unfair in the situation).

This is not to say that the means in which the decision was made wasn' t unfair (not to say that it was). This is simply to say that fairness was never the issue.

[tyriel]

all this, and there was me wondering a while ago if PA would continue to create bot dumps under Jolts direction.

[[Cymru]]

PA and its creators made this game, we all play it. Why should PA feel obligated to povide extended official DB dumps to other people/sites?

IMO they are only trying to level the playing field between big organised alliances with their "1337" PA Tools etc. Alliances who have the power to shut those tools down during such a time as a huge wave launch on a rivals alliance top player to hinder the other allies defence/retaliation organisation.

It has always been rumoured those allies could use spyware to use the scans parsed at their sites to their own use.

All PA have done is try and provide a tools site everyone can use, something closer to an unbiased site which everyone can use.

Granted, the recoded R9 tools may not turn out to have the best layout or look to it but why do you moan about not being able to create/host a tools site with 100% of the spec. of the official tools?

If you feel the tools arent up to scratch in your eyes then offer to help, dont start crying your eyes out because your favourite tools will be undermined.

[A2]

Originally posted by mist
of course this is going to cost whoever hosts the tools bandwidth, as all the alliances start ripping pages off teh site every hour. as the tools were origonally wrote as netgamers tool, and there's a netgamers dns entry for them will netgamers be paying the bandwidth costs for planetarion's arrogance?

Yes - there is a NetGamers DNS entry
No - the tools are not hosted by NetGamers - so NG isn't going to lose anything major on the bandwidth front.
There is of course a PA URL for the toolkit - which if it's pointing at the right server should work on http://toolkit.planetarion.com

[Mit]

Originally posted by A2
Yes - there is a NetGamers DNS entry
No - the tools are not hosted by NetGamers - so NG isn't going to lose anything major on the bandwidth front.
There is of course a PA URL for the toolkit - which if it's pointing at the right server should work on http://toolkit.planetarion.com

ALL 3 DNS entries to the server work!

http://patools.netgamers.org and http://toolkit.planetarion.com are the main ones. As for bandwidth - that is provided by my m8, and if it abused, the tools will have to go. i.e. if alliances start hacking away at the site tick after tick to get the 'extra' info.

[Mong]

I like that people are considering taking the small pieces of extra info from Mit's host, as they feel they should have it too.

I also like the fact that these people know that it would mean Mit had to find a new host as it would mean 15k+ extra hits per day.

So two things:

1 - Mit is making the official PA tools. PA want him too. PA want him to have the full dump. PA can do what they want with THEIR dump. Mit himself doesn't really benefit as he's making the tools FOR PA, NOT FOR HIMSELF.

2 - I can easily show Mit how to set up Apache to stop leeching of that nature. Failing that, I'll host the tools. I can take 1500k+ extra hits and not feel it!

M.

[Mit]

Originally posted by Mong
I also like the fact that these people know that it would mean Mit had to find a new host as it would mean 15k+ extra hits per day.

tbh, i don't think thats crossed anyones mind - they WANT the data and don't care what they have to do to get at it.

[Mong]

Mist actually raises a valid point (in amongst his habitual bitching!)... that this actually forces Ely ppl (for example) to use the official PA Tools to get the "richer" data, then use their own for parsing it and stuff.

However when Wolfpack and oOo joined up, we got some absolutely top tools. But you know where the data came from? Us pasting from Sandmans of course!

Crucially though; if the full dump were made available, would Ely then utilise this to the full on the public side of their tools?

M.

[Mit]

as for just saying 'its crap' if u have any USEFUL suggestions, there is a forum for them Planetarion Resources Support so instead of just bitching - SUGGEST / Comment etc

[Mong]

Nobody seems to be commenting btw on the fact that PBot gets the full dump, yet other bots don't.

M.

[Mit]

i think it was mentioned a bit before, but deemed to be irrelevant

[Smesh]

Originally posted by Mong
Nobody seems to be commenting btw on the fact that PBot gets the full dump, yet other bots don't.

M.

PBOT was the original (afaik). And there are no other 'major' bots available to everyone.

Originally posted by Mong
Nobody seems to be commenting btw on the fact that PBot gets the full dump, yet other bots don't.

Have you actually READ this thread ?

Pbot case also been discussed

[kaos]

Originally posted by Mit
as for just saying 'its crap' if u have any USEFUL suggestions, there is a forum for them Planetarion Resources Support so instead of just bitching - SUGGEST / Comment etc

oh oh i doubt ppl will suggest too much, as i already tried to get new ideas for pilkara that way (asking in ely and wp) and guess how much input i got ...
And mit: i would never wanted to kill your site by getting the additional info from it, i would rather do it the _illegal_ way and get the data from ingame then causing so much extra traffic on your tools, as i know that this can get you in some major trouble

[kaos]

Originally posted by Mong
Mist actually raises a valid point (in amongst his habitual bitching!)... that this actually forces Ely ppl (for example) to use the official PA Tools to get the "richer" data, then use their own for parsing it and stuff.

However when Wolfpack and oOo joined up, we got some absolutely top tools. But you know where the data came from? Us pasting from Sandmans of course!

Crucially though; if the full dump were made available, would Ely then utilise this to the full on the public side of their tools?

M.

as i explained before, the only thing i'm really after are the minister positions, as i hate ingame browsing (see my other post for reasons) and i can happily live with a minister only dump and that will be utilized completely for the public (even tho i don't really know what you could get of worthful info from that, as in big gals those positions usually go by roids and not by ally ranks anyways)

[Mong]

Kaos: This works both ways!

I'm quite horrified that your suggesting taking down Mit's tools. It reeks of somebody being rather jealous and annoyed that they're not getting it all their own way!

M.

[Mit]

another thing i will say - the 'official planetarion toolkit' last round had the official dumps, just cos i've taken over doing this, why is this causing so much trouble?

[kaos]

Originally posted by Mong
Kaos: This works both ways!

I'm quite horrified that your suggesting taking down Mit's tools. It reeks of somebody being rather jealous and annoyed that they're not getting it all their own way!

M.

where did i suggest to take his tools down ? I was just stating that it is possible, but that i would not do it ....

Originally posted by Mit
another thing i will say - the 'official planetarion toolkit' last round had the official dumps, just cos i've taken over doing this, why is this causing so much trouble?

Well, you dunno how long I've (we ...) been trying to get the "private" dump. I actually Started this back in r7, but now it was at a point that i could just not accept anymore (kloopys statement in ch ...) so now we made this public