Planetarion Forums - PA giving "official" tools private dumps.

SpazMonster · 19 Feb 2003, 01:17

Quote:

Originally posted by Bashar

The point of the thread is PEOPLE CAN'T MAKE THEIR OWN TOOL TO REPLACE THE OFFICIAL ONE WITHOUT THE SAME DB DUMP.

Yes they can, just without ministers and galaxy pics. boohoo

Bashar · 19 Feb 2003, 01:17

Quote:

Originally posted by SpazMonster
Perhaps I should be more blunt because people can't seem to follow my logic and make connections as I had hoped they would. I was trying to get at the question 'Why would it be fair in the first place'?

We can all be blunt - so just for you:

Justifying an unfair action on the basis of "life being unfair" is absolutely unreasonable. It is a fool who does such a thing, as they are openly inviting the greatest unfairness to be directed at themselves. Understand me so far?

Now, to continue the point, life may not be fair, but in an ideal world it would be, and so people who justify unfair actions by the philosophy of life being unfair are striving for a non-ideal world. As a result I can conclude that such people have no basis for complaint on any matters, as a complaint is suggesting that something is unfair and non-ideal, hence by complaining about a matter, such people are going against their own principles. Hence, such people should bugger off and leave threads like this alone as by their own logic, their opinion is irrelevant and has no value, and their complaints are unfounded, and are without reason.

[/rant]

Bashar · 19 Feb 2003, 01:19

Quote:

Originally posted by SpazMonster
Yes they can, just without ministers and galaxy pics. boohoo

Hence if they wish such things, they have to go to the official tool..... Have you actually read the thread? Do you actually know what the argument is?

SpazMonster · 19 Feb 2003, 01:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Bashar
We can all be blunt - so just for you:

Justifying an unfair action on the basis of "life being unfair" is absolutely unreasonable. It is a fool who does such a thing, as they are openly inviting the greatest unfairness to be directed at themselves. Understand me so far?

Now, to continue the point, life may not be fair, but in an ideal world it would be, and so people who justify unfair actions by the philosophy of life being unfair are striving for a non-ideal world. As a result I can conclude that such people have no basis for complaint on any matters, as a complaint is suggesting that something is unfair and non-ideal, hence by complaining about a matter, such people are going against their own principles. Hence, such people should bugger off and leave threads like this alone as by their own logic, their opinion is irrelevant and has no value, and their complaints are unfounded, and are without reason.

[/rant]

Yes yes, since fairness is to be strived for, the creators should open up the source-code of PA to competing parties on the basis of fairness too? I mean in the name of competition right?

Mit · 19 Feb 2003, 01:21

Quote:

Originally posted by [Racer]
Actually this thread was made to point out that only the "official" gets the best dump with the most info.

For all i care, i could run the official tools without the 'extra' dumps, it would make the dumper quicker for a start

Bashar · 19 Feb 2003, 01:23

Quote:

Originally posted by A2
Please explain what prevents you using your own choice of toolkit simply because there's another one available.

Also you make a point about the bandwidth -- Someone pointed out earlier that Sandmans died because of problems paying for the bandwidth usage. The more toolkits that are available the more spread out the bandwidth usage will be hopefully allowing all of them to survive.

One more thing - Why has this suddenly become such an issue this round? The official dumps have been around for a couple of rounds, and were used on the NetGamers version last round.

Re-read the thread.

SpazMonster · 19 Feb 2003, 01:23

Quote:

Originally posted by Bashar
Hence if they wish such things, they have to go to the official tool..... Have you actually read the thread? Do you actually know what the argument is?

Are you saying those 2 features are so pivotal to the toolkit that w/o them it is useless?

I understand the argument perfectly. No one has yet to refute my browsing habbit/business decision argument (MY MAIN POINT FFS). You keep getting tripped up in semantics and talking around the point yourself. So please.. continue

A2 · 19 Feb 2003, 01:23

Quote:

Originally posted by [Racer]
Actually this thread was made to point out that only the "official" gets the best dump with the most info.

So you're precise problem with this is - because something is "official" then it shouldn't get any special treatment...
As someone pointed out earlier the idea is to attract people to the Planetarion Pages. While people are using the toolkit they're more likely to browse other parts of the site too.

Quote:

A2, get a life u are pathetic

I've got one thankyou very much - unless you're one of the people who seems to think I'm a bot.

K-W · 19 Feb 2003, 01:24

Shouldnt this discussion wait until after the round starts and we see what mit does to make his tool work. People always use the tool that works best and gives the best information. There is very good reason to have an official tool hosted by PA, because indeed ely,virus, whoever can use thier tools to gather information. It would be irresponsible of the creators to not make tools and calcs available to the players, they are 100% vital to the community and having them controlled by specific allainces isnt neccessarily in the best interests of the games. Also doing it this way makes it easier for newbies to access and discover tools.

I think the one complaint the community should have is that the crew did not put the quality of the tools they made official as the #1 criteria. Which was silly of them since mit may not do the job and make the best tool and they will have wasted thier times.

MrBrick · 19 Feb 2003, 01:26

Quote:

Originally posted by Bashar
blah blah blah arse blah blah rant blah no real point blah blah

Right.

I think there's a simple solution to this. Accept that that offical tools will have better access. After all, why will it matter, the dumps are publically available though the PA Tools. And the extras are only gal pics and minister positions. It's hardly an earth shattering difference. When I hunt for targets etc, I tend to look at the galaxy in-game aswell when I'm wading through the possibilities.

What advantage have you lost?
As far as I can tell, you've lost the ability to see gal pictures and to tell who is a minister. Oh no, slash your wrists before life gets any worse.

Mole Hill

Mountain.

Stress · 19 Feb 2003, 01:26

Quote:

Originally posted by A2
Please explain what prevents you using your own choice of toolkit simply because there's another one available.

Also you make a point about the bandwidth -- Someone pointed out earlier that Sandmans died because of problems paying for the bandwidth usage. The more toolkits that are available the more spread out the bandwidth usage will be hopefully allowing all of them to survive.

One more thing - Why has this suddenly become such an issue this round? The official dumps have been around for a couple of rounds, and were used on the NetGamers version last round.

In a Competive enviroment, U as the State. Give a clear advantage to company A ower company B,C,D,E. Whom of those companies are most likely to survive ?

Alliances, that has for a long time been developing tools. And making them available to the communety. Now see that, there is a noter 'toolkit' that will be given more innformation then they wil.

Why should they then even botehr to compete, when they know that all advantages are given elswhere ?

Example, Come round 10. we dont know how it will change. Information etc, can be vastly Diffrent. Why should the experianced 'alliance' coders bother to delvelop tools to suit the needs then. If they know that they will be ower run by somone given the advantage.

Secondly, earlier in this thread somone made a poing about Galaxy banners hosting, and minister positions. Do u really think that there arent ways to look this up allrdy ? common we have ben playing for 8 soon 9 rounds.

It might take 3 minutes more, but that innformation is available to annyone.

In the end, where would the 'offishial tools' be today, withouth Sandmans, Pilkara, Virus tools etc. Doing it before them. This is simpy somtihng made by players, based on a need by players. Now, suddenly PA desides to make somthing of thir own. And thus they shall be given priveleges. For stealing somone elses Ideas ?

On a side note, the other tools are WAY better then the ofishial ones, and they most likely would continue to be. IF they where given the same oppertunety as the 'offishial' ones are. IT is sad to se that 'PA' works against its contributors, and not with them.

But hey, we are getting used to it by now.

Bashar · 19 Feb 2003, 01:27

Quote:

Originally posted by SpazMonster
Yes yes, since fairness is to be strived for, the creators should open up the source-code of PA to competing parties on the basis of fairness too? I mean in the name of competition right?

That is not competition, the creators created the game, it is theirs. What you are saying lacks all logic. If I had said that the official toolkit source should be released for fairness, I could understand this, but as it is, you are clutching at straws. Your argument draws no parallels to the situation.

And for some reason, I feel like I am being dragged into arguing against the official toolkit. My arguments were along the lines of judging the validity of other arguments, not saying that the toolkit was wrong. Some of the things I have said support the existence of an official toolkit. But as you used that example, I have had to then use it myself to prove it wrong, after all, logic can only be disproved with logic (just like, as in this situation, illogical attempts at logic can be disproved with logic)

K-W · 19 Feb 2003, 01:28

Why in the heck are you using a free market economic model to describe tools in an online game?

Stress · 19 Feb 2003, 01:29

Quote:

Originally posted by A2
So you're precise problem with this is - because something is "official" then it shouldn't get any special treatment...
As someone pointed out earlier the idea is to attract people to the Planetarion Pages. While people are using the toolkit they're more likely to browse other parts of the site too.

no the entire point is that PA gives themselves advatages, only by stealing somone elses IDEAS. making competition and thus encurrage to even better development stagnate.

19 Feb 2003, 01:30

Quote:

Originally posted by A2
So you're precise problem with this is - because something is "official" then it shouldn't get any special treatment...
As someone pointed out earlier the idea is to attract people to the Planetarion Pages. While people are using the toolkit they're more likely to browse other parts of the site too.

I've got one thankyou very much - unless you're one of the people who seems to think I'm a bot.

Since talking to you is like talking to a empty beer bottle I think I am going to bed now.

Seems the policy from the Pa Team is to NOT take advantage of private initiatives that MIGHT get the game more players and by that maybye get it to survive this time.

btw, WHAT is there to see at the portal that might be worth loking for, I cant say I find much. Blame it on me that doesnt browse all of it...

Since I am paying for the Pilkara hosting I might reconsider that and just take it offline since its not wanted.

Stress · 19 Feb 2003, 01:31

Quote:

Originally posted by K-W
Why in the heck are you using a free market economic model to describe tools in an online game?

As it in the end will benefit the end users. that in this case is the entire communety...

19 Feb 2003, 01:32

Stress its time to get that speller online ...

Sakera · 19 Feb 2003, 01:32

Quote:

Originally posted by Mit
<alot of info>

and with this you filled what holes of this discussion?

Bashar · 19 Feb 2003, 01:32

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBrick
Right.

I think there's a simple solution to this. Accept that that offical tools will have better access. After all, why will it matter, the dumps are publically available though the PA Tools. And the extras are only gal pics and minister positions. It's hardly an earth shattering difference. When I hunt for targets etc, I tend to look at the galaxy in-game aswell when I'm wading through the possibilities.

What advantage have you lost?
As far as I can tell, you've lost the ability to see gal pictures and to tell who is a minister. Oh no, slash your wrists before life gets any worse.

Mole Hill

Mountain.

You appear to have misread my posts. At no point have I argued against the official toolkit, as I seem to have said a lot, I gave facts. I have then looked at other arguments, and pointed out holes that I saw. I do not consider that my posts say that the toolkit shouldn't exist. I have merely pointed out holes in arguments, and if you look carefully, I have pointed out holes in arguments AGAINST the toolkit too. Do not try and quote me and use me to illustrate your point when my posts directly addressing the issue support your views as much as they oppose them. It is an inefficient use of argumentative skills.

Stress · 19 Feb 2003, 01:34

Quote:

Originally posted by [Racer]
Stress its time to get that speller online ...

na m8, its not like they will ever understand. even if we banged it innto their heads.

Bashar · 19 Feb 2003, 01:35

Quote:

Originally posted by K-W
Why in the heck are you using a free market economic model to describe tools in an online game?

It is a part of real-life (well, an idealistic one anyway, the fact it doesn't hold is just complications), and I believe the argument that I was addressing was based on real-life, it seemed appropriate to dip into the same realm for simplification. Also, the fact that it quite nicely illustrated the point.

I am afraid I am guilty of jumping on the bandwagon. Everyone else decided to use non-PA ideas to illustrate their point, so I thought I would do the same

Mit · 19 Feb 2003, 01:35

Quote:

Originally posted by Sakera
and with this you filled what holes of this discussion?

Someone was moaning i used my tools to 'gain positions/power' or made them for a reason - i was pointing out what i actually did - being virtually the oposide of what was said.

MrBrick · 19 Feb 2003, 01:36

Quote:

Originally posted by Bashar
You appear to have misread my posts. At no point have I argued against the official toolkit, as I seem to have said a lot, I gave facts. I have then looked at other arguments, and pointed out holes that I saw. I do not consider that my posts say that the toolkit shouldn't exist. I have merely pointed out holes in arguments, and if you look carefully, I have pointed out holes in arguments AGAINST the toolkit too. Do not try and quote me and use me to illustrate your point when my posts directly addressing the issue support your views as much as they oppose them. It is an inefficient use of argumentative skills.

And pray tell what is the point of argueing for both sides?
If you are "just pointing out holes" then maybe you should actually put a little thought into what you actually say. You talk of efficient use of argumentative skills...Where are yours then? You are merely argueing the toss because apparantly it makes you big and clever then I assume?

Sakera · 19 Feb 2003, 01:37

can we try and not move away from the original problem - PA giving one tool site more data to give it an advantage over others.

MrBrick · 19 Feb 2003, 01:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Sakera
can we try and not move away from the original problem - PA giving one tool site more data to give it an advantage over others.

Because it's an official toolkit. Do Microsoft provide Yahoo! with a hotmail interface? No.

PA has every right to use a slightly different dump if they so wish.

Sakera · 19 Feb 2003, 01:40

Quote:

Originally posted by Mit
Someone was moaning i used my tools to 'gain positions/power' or made them for a reason - i was pointing out what i actually did - being virtually the oposide of what was said.

2 questions. Explain to all of us how you gained access to PA private dumps back in round 8 or shall i trow my version of it?

second, would you min 15k extra hits a day because our bot collects all galaxy pictures and minister positions from it?

SpazMonster · 19 Feb 2003, 01:40

Quote:

Originally posted by Bashar
That is not competition, the creators created the game, it is theirs. What you are saying lacks all logic. If I had said that the official toolkit source should be released for fairness, I could understand this, but as it is, you are clutching at straws. Your argument draws no parallels to the situation.

And for some reason, I feel like I am being dragged into arguing against the official toolkit. My arguments were along the lines of judging the validity of other arguments, not saying that the toolkit was wrong. Some of the things I have said support the existence of an official toolkit. But as you used that example, I have had to then use it myself to prove it wrong, after all, logic can only be disproved with logic (just like, as in this situation, illogical attempts at logic can be disproved with logic)

I was arguing against the whole fairness ideal thing, although admittedly in hindsight, not in the best manner. It was a purposefully unfair decision made for good reasons. The lack of a few features will not dramatically impact outside developers.

A2 · 19 Feb 2003, 01:41

Quote:

Originally posted by [Racer]
Since I am paying for the Pilkara hosting I might reconsider that and just take it offline since its not wanted

That's a decision you'd have to take all by yourself and not anything to do with any of us.

Quote:

Originally posted by Bashar
the creators created the game, it is theirs

Hence if they choose to allow a toolkit they directly support to have extra information then it's their decision.

Quote:

Originally posted by Stress
Secondly, earlier in this thread somone made a poing about Galaxy banners hosting, and minister positions. Do u really think that there arent ways to look this up allrdy ? common we have ben playing for 8 soon 9 rounds.

Since this information isn't in the public dumps and never has been then I can only assume that either you're manually copying and pasting the entire universe every tick or using some form of browser enhancement (ie. a bot) which is outlawed by the user agreement of the game.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sakera
second, would you min 15k extra hits a day because our bot collects all galaxy pictures and minister positions from it?

I believe there are methods of preventing this - but I'm not an expert on the subject.

Bashar · 19 Feb 2003, 01:42

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBrick
And pray tell what is the point of argueing for both sides?
If you are "just pointing out holes" then maybe you should actually put a little thought into what you actually say. You talk of efficient use of argumentative skills...Where are yours then? You are merely argueing the toss because apparantly it makes you big and clever then I assume?

No, if I see an argument that I don't think washes, I will oppose it. That is the point of an argument, opposing something you disagree with. Almost out of habit now, I will say that my initial post was facts, it was not an argument, hence there was no waste of argumentative skills there. My other posts have been arguments, but arguments on side issues, tangents if you like. They have not been directed at stating my views of the matter, merely giving my views of other peoples arguments. It is not arguing against myself, it is arguing against other posts that I feel have flawed arguments. This does not mean I am arguing against their views, it means I am arguing against the evidence they provided, and/or against the way tehy provided it. It is a perfectly valid argument, and most arguments, I believe, are made up of such sub-arguments!

Sakera · 19 Feb 2003, 01:42

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBrick
Because it's an official toolkit. Do Microsoft provide Yahoo! with a hotmail interface? No.

PA has every right to use a slightly different dump if they so wish.

it isnt about if they are allowed to or not. It's about why they threat the community like this. If you backtrace PA a few rounds you can see series of such small happenings.
Alltogether destroying PA.

Stress · 19 Feb 2003, 01:42

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBrick
Because it's an official toolkit. Do Microsoft provide Yahoo! with a hotmail interface? No.

PA has every right to use a slightly different dump if they so wish.

so PA can base a tool on somone elses ideas / thoughts and labour. and its not a problem ?

And u believe that all the advances in the Tools up untill now, would have been made by PA if there indeed was no other tool site available?

And u feel that PA is doing itself a favour, by making the other tool kits. eather go innto members areas, or just offline permanently. ? And not even botherng to develop new features. so that new ideas can be thought out. And the end user benetiffing ?

SpazMonster · 19 Feb 2003, 01:43

Quote:

Originally posted by Stress
As it in the end will benefit the end users. that in this case is the entire communety...

how?

Stress · 19 Feb 2003, 01:43

Quote:

Originally posted by SpazMonster
how?

read post above

Sakera · 19 Feb 2003, 01:45

Quote:

Originally posted by A2
I believe there are methods of preventing this - but I'm not an expert on the subject.

For every new method to prevent that theres a new workaround.

MrBrick · 19 Feb 2003, 01:45

Quote:

Originally posted by Stress
so PA can base a tool on somone elses ideas / thoughts and labour. and its not a problem ?

And u believe that all the advances in the Tools up untill now, would have been made by PA if there indeed was no other tool site available?

And u feel that PA is doing itself a favour, by making the other tool kits. eather go innto members areas, or just offline permanently. ? And not even botherng to develop new features. so that new ideas can be thought out. And the end user benetiffing ?

Prove to me that Mit directly copied/based PA Tools from anything. There are very few ways to design a parser for this game. I'm going to go for the Colin Powell option.

Bashar · 19 Feb 2003, 01:45

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBrick
Because it's an official toolkit. Do Microsoft provide Yahoo! with a hotmail interface? No.

PA has every right to use a slightly different dump if they so wish.

Hotmail base their code on email, yahoo base theirs on email. Hotmail was exclusively developed on email. The PA toolkits were exclusively developed on the pa dumps - so, should whoever created the whole idea of email restrict it's capabilities to yahoo, but give microsoft extra capabilities within email itself? If so, then emails from hotmail would be frequently incompatible with yahoo, and as such, could only be read through hotmail.

I don't think your argument is a good illustration tbh.

Bashar · 19 Feb 2003, 01:49

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBrick
Prove to me that Mit directly copied/based PA Tools from anything. There are very few ways to design a parser for this game. I'm going to go for the Colin Powell option.

It is common belief that Sandmans was the original tool site, and the one that developed the ideas, but I agree that the argument was invalid as the ideas were not copyrighted, and were ones which were, to an extent inevitable. It is a question of who got to them first, and I don't think that alleging copying would be a valid argument in the matter. Would people say that Boeing should be restricted because the Wright brothers developed flight? I doubt it.

So, I sort of agree with your argument, but not your wording

Mit · 19 Feb 2003, 01:50

Quote:

Originally posted by Sakera
2 questions. Explain to all of us how you gained access to PA private dumps back in round 8 or shall i trow my version of it?

second, would you min 15k extra hits a day because our bot collects all galaxy pictures and minister positions from it?

don't forget, u need the same bandwidth too, i'm sure my m8 who's hosting the server might have a strong complaint about 15k hits / tick

Sakera · 19 Feb 2003, 01:51

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBrick
Prove to me that Mit directly copied/based PA Tools from anything. There are very few ways to design a parser for this game. I'm going to go for the Colin Powell option.

there aren't proof but you can only imagine ....

Sakera · 19 Feb 2003, 01:51

Quote:

Originally posted by Mit
don't forget, u need the same bandwidth too, i'm sure my m8 who's hosting the server might have a strong complaint about 15k hits / tick

we have the bandwith, do you?

...

Norseman · 19 Feb 2003, 01:51

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBrick
Prove to me that Mit directly copied/based PA Tools from anything. There are very few ways to design a parser for this game. I'm going to go for the Colin Powell option.

find 10 random ppl that never before have seen any pa-parser and give them the task to make one, and im quite sure that most of the results wont look like the ones we have today (...the design I mean)

Stress · 19 Feb 2003, 01:52

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBrick
Prove to me that Mit directly copied/based PA Tools from anything. There are very few ways to design a parser for this game. I'm going to go for the Colin Powell option.

dude noon cares it it is copied in that way. The problem is that they would not even have thought it up. If it was not for other ones doing it before them. The sad truth is that the 'outsiders' that have coded tool kits. Have made the standard, espehsially sandman. They had the ideas. They made improvements. They had new ideas etc. NOT trying to encurrage to just that. New ideas. Better tools, and what not. By spesifically giving one toolsite a clear advantage ower the others. Is not benefishial to annyone. It only stagnates development on the tool sites. Trying to argue diffrently is just nonsense. Look at the way we have come since sandman started his perfection and aditions to toolkits. PA would be no where clos, without the ideas from the existant / previous ones. And to Activly work against further development of these tools. Is nothing but destructive for anny further development.

Not to mention how this is a slapp in the face for all the other coders, that have worked hard, even more then mit. To supply the communety with good tools. Only to se pa take some unprooven, not even fisnished. who knows to manny rounds late. An oppertunety, that they could have given a long time ago.

MrBrick · 19 Feb 2003, 01:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Bashar
argueing the toss

However bad the example, the point is there. Why would somebody wanting to improve their sales or page hits want to give away their unique selling point. In this case, the unique selling point makes little difference anyway. You tell me the advantage it actually has.

Bashar · 19 Feb 2003, 01:55

Quote:

Originally posted by Stress
dude noon cares it it is copied in that way. The problem is that they would not even have thought it up. If it was not for other ones doing it before them. The sad truth is that the 'outsiders' that have coded tool kits. Have made the standard, espehsially sandman. They had the ideas. They made improvements. They had new ideas etc. NOT trying to encurrage to just that. New ideas. Better tools, and what not. By spesifically giving one toolsite a clear advantage ower the others. Is not benefishial to annyone. It only stagnates development on the tool sites. Trying to argue diffrently is just nonsense. Look at the way we have come since sandman started his perfection and aditions to toolkits. PA would be no where clos, without the ideas from the existant / previous ones. And to Activly work against further development of these tools. Is nothing but destructive for anny further development.

A sound argument if ever there was! Your points on the fact that it will stagnate development to an extent (albeit possibly a small one) are in my view, undeniable.

MrBrick · 19 Feb 2003, 01:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Stress
dude noon cares it it is copied in that way. The problem is that they would not even have thought it up. If it was not for other ones doing it before them. The sad truth is that the 'outsiders' that have coded tool kits. Have made the standard, espehsially sandman. They had the ideas. They made improvements. They had new ideas etc. NOT trying to encurrage to just that. New ideas. Better tools, and what not. By spesifically giving one toolsite a clear advantage ower the others. Is not benefishial to annyone. It only stagnates development on the tool sites. Trying to argue diffrently is just nonsense. Look at the way we have come since sandman started his perfection and aditions to toolkits. PA would be no where clos, without the ideas from the existant / previous ones. And to Activly work against further development of these tools. Is nothing but destructive for anny further development.

Not to mention how this is a slapp in the face for all the other coders, that have worked hard, even more then mit. To supply the communety with good tools. Only to se pa take some unprooven, not even fisnished. who knows to manny rounds late. An oppertunety, that they could have given a long time ago.

Prove they wouldn't have though it up.
[/Colin Powell]

Bashar · 19 Feb 2003, 01:58

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBrick
However bad the example, the point is there. Why would somebody wanting to improve their sales or page hits want to give away their unique selling point. In this case, the unique selling point makes little difference anyway. You tell me the advantage it actually has.

You are arguing against yourself here.

You are suggesting it is being done to improve sales, yet you say it makes little difference. I am not sure which side of the contradiction you are aiming for. Although, as I stated in my post, I was agreeing with you, so I also fail to see why you suggest I was arguing against you, another contradiction that has me baffled

Stress · 19 Feb 2003, 01:58

Quote:

Originally posted by Bashar
A sound argument if ever there was! Your points on the fact that it will stagnate development to an extent (albeit possibly a small one) are in my view, undeniable.

funny. ive seeen pilkara v3 and its a huge improvment from what u know of now....

but looking at the frustration and feelings on display on elys tech server. makes me doubt they will ever be publicly available

Bashar · 19 Feb 2003, 02:00

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBrick
Prove they wouldn't have though it up.
[/Colin Powell]

Why do I get the feeling that this is an argument borne of stubborness rather than rational thought and your true opinions? I sense a deep sarcasm.

No doubt you are now gonna tell me I am talking crap though

Chax · 19 Feb 2003, 02:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Bashar
It is common belief that Sandmans was the original tool site, and the one that developed the ideas,

Tahmer's site was THE SITE!

Norseman · 19 Feb 2003, 02:00

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBrick
Prove they wouldn't have though it up.
[/Colin Powell]

heh.. show some respect to the ppl debating this issue and either contribute or **** off