User Name
Password

Go Back   Planetarion Forums > Planetarion Related Forums > Planetarion Discussions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Unread 26 Dec 2005, 23:43   #1
Appocomaster
PA Team
 
Appocomaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,449
Appocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus would
Espionage

As this seems to be the biggest issue with any new proposals, I thought I'd start a specific thread.

It basically involves the concept of shifting all intelligence gathering to sending agents. The more difficult the mission, the longer it takes. The more agents you send, the lower your stealth but the quicker the mission.

Why change the system?
Well, for a start "distorter wh0res" force the advantage to alliances with dedicated scanners. As the round goes on, some fair percentage of the playerbase decides to go for distorter whoring, which only some top alliance scanners can scan. I wonder how many of the top alliances actually had scanners with over 100 or 130 amps, or access to one? And how many planets had over 100 distorters? (yes, I admit I should have looked this up BEFORE resetting everyone's constructions).

Covert ops are generally used by mid-top alliance players (admittedly partly because many of the smaller players are free and can't get any decent covert ops). They're almost self justifying - covert ops are used by scanners to steal resources, and more than just scanners use covert ops to destroy amps of scanners and any structures of top enemy planets with low security.
Very few people (I think YoureDoomed was one?) have actually come top 100 using some sort of covert op method. I think that we could make the route as a whole more useful.

Secondly, all this "concept stuff".
Waves is meant to send scans out to count things. If you want to debate realism, I fail to see how waves can do most of the specified scans, and even if they can somehow detect which researches you've done, I don't quite see how amplifiers work properly (even if they were to boost accuracy the more you had). Surely if anything, amplifiers should let you scan yourself, your galaxy, your cluster then your universe? (as an aisde, that'd be a far better way to limit free planets). If anything it makes more sense for a guy to go to the planet and have a look around. While he's there, he might as well attempt to stick plastique on likely targets (although that's slightly more difficult and reflected in the fine details, should we ever get that far in the espionage discussion).

I know a lot of people feel that it's not "broken" and so shouldn't be changed (although some covert ops aren't that great - the ship / asteroid killing ones for example). I think we could at least see what happens.
__________________
r8-10 RaH r10.5-12 MISTU
Appocomaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 26 Dec 2005, 23:51   #2
furball
Registered Awesome Person
 
furball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,676
furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Espionage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Very few people (I think YoureDoomed was one?) have actually come top 100 using some sort of covert op method. I think that we could make the route as a whole more useful.
No, it was because in one of the first PaX rounds, you got more XP for scanning than for roiding. He was a scanner and basically scanned the entire universe repeatedly. Hence the rule was created that you can't perform any action that will put a lot of stress on the PA servers.
__________________
Finally free!
furball is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 26 Dec 2005, 23:52   #3
Appocomaster
PA Team
 
Appocomaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,449
Appocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus would
Re: Espionage

afaik he did it after the rules were adjusted - I remember a galaxy got in trouble for scanning and abusing the bug, and another galaxy for abusing the gal fund limit bug.
__________________
r8-10 RaH r10.5-12 MISTU
Appocomaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 27 Dec 2005, 00:02   #4
furball
Registered Awesome Person
 
furball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,676
furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Espionage

I thought it was his galaxy which got in trouble for the scanning? And wasn't it Gerbie who could have finished top 100 for cov opping?
__________________
Finally free!
furball is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 27 Dec 2005, 00:03   #5
Appocomaster
PA Team
 
Appocomaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,449
Appocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus would
Re: Espionage

I can't remember. can someone help us out?
__________________
r8-10 RaH r10.5-12 MISTU
Appocomaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 27 Dec 2005, 00:42   #6
Wandows
[Vision]
 
Wandows's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 897
Wandows has a reputation beyond reputeWandows has a reputation beyond reputeWandows has a reputation beyond reputeWandows has a reputation beyond reputeWandows has a reputation beyond reputeWandows has a reputation beyond reputeWandows has a reputation beyond reputeWandows has a reputation beyond reputeWandows has a reputation beyond reputeWandows has a reputation beyond reputeWandows has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Espionage

Open community tools ftw

Round 13 #70
Round 14 #63

I have no idea how he did it though. I know he was scanner in atleast one of those rounds. I can imagine him staying tiny for a long time, stealing resources from inactives and filling the fund, then getting it all donated to him in 1 go to produce a fleet and go roid to get into the top100.
__________________
[Vision] in a lost dream, contributing to The 5th Element at present
Wandows is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 31 Dec 2005, 22:11   #7
Vasquez
-Retard-
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 44
Vasquez is infamous around these partsVasquez is infamous around these partsVasquez is infamous around these parts
Re: Espionage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wandows
Open community tools ftw

Round 13 #70
Round 14 #63

I have no idea how he did it though. I know he was scanner in atleast one of those rounds. I can imagine him staying tiny for a long time, stealing resources from inactives and filling the fund, then getting it all donated to him in 1 go to produce a fleet and go roid to get into the top100.

Knowing YoureDoomed quite well i can actually clear this up.

He took part in the majority of the alliance roiding missions but often taking the unappealing targets that needed covering. He was mainly a scanner in both of these rounds and thus focused his res/con on scans. To the best of my recollection he didnt actually start in a decent galaxy and subsequently spent quite a lot of money on exiling.
Once he had found himself a decent galaxy he then carried on scanning and attacking bad targets until the universe had sorted itself out (ie there was a side with a clear advantage) he then set about roiding a lot of roid fat targets in team up raids with friends from various alliances until he had himself enough xp and size to be able to build a big enough fleet to attack these targets on his own and thus get into the t100.
As for why he wasnt attacked and brought down a peg or 2 i cant say but i do recall him getting roided a fair few times and actually losing a lot of roids but by that time his xp was so high it didnt matter especially when coupled with the fact that he did his big attacking late in the round when a lot of people were starting to lose dedication and therefore he didnt pose too much of a threat and people were busy attempting to take down the number 1 alliance.

But he did start both of those rounds as a scanner but as a scanner with a plan. One which eventually came to fruition and proved to be a good one.
__________________
George Bush visited East London where i live recently. He was interviewed by a couple of children selected from local schools. One of the questions, asked by a 10year old lad, was "Whats the White House like"

The most powerful man in the world who regularly faces some of the toughest questioning in the world by the best journalists answered........


"It is White"
Vasquez is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 27 Dec 2005, 02:02   #8
SteInMetz
NewDawn
Sofa Longjump Champion
 
SteInMetz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Stavanger, Norway
Posts: 468
SteInMetz is a splendid one to beholdSteInMetz is a splendid one to beholdSteInMetz is a splendid one to beholdSteInMetz is a splendid one to beholdSteInMetz is a splendid one to beholdSteInMetz is a splendid one to behold
Re: Espionage

It was the top gal who abused it.

AGAIN ITS SPRITFIRE Posting...

FFS. Hard to remember this when I am home
__________________

Proud to be Newdawn

Last edited by SteInMetz; 27 Dec 2005 at 02:09.
SteInMetz is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 27 Dec 2005, 02:10   #9
Kargool
Up The Hatters!
 
Kargool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Kenilworth Road
Posts: 3,012
Kargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet society
Re: Espionage

I am one of the biggest oponents to the suggested changes, mostly because it removes scans the way it is now. I do think that cov op needs to be done something with. My biggest irritation is that cov op to reduce others security.. I dont know how many have used that one... But putting scans and cov ops into the same "bracket" and as far as I know removing the jpscan and doing radical changes with the scan system is something I am against. In the initial suggestion from Appocomaster one of the suggestion was to remove the ability to jpscan unless you were eta 4 or less from the target planet. This would make it alot harder on alot of people, and also make alliance coordination tougher.

Also, critisising people for going distorter whore is totally and utter shite. It is an option within the rules and if some newb without an alliance isnt able to scan someone, then he should go for more amps.

The system as it is now allready permits the possibilities to do a good round without an alliance. There was alot of people in smaller, or without any alliances in the top 100 the last round so with time and dedication is it fully possible to do good without an ally.
__________________
Planetarion veteran

Last edited by Kargool; 27 Dec 2005 at 02:27.
Kargool is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 27 Dec 2005, 12:34   #10
Appocomaster
PA Team
 
Appocomaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,449
Appocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus would
Re: Espionage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
I dont know how many have used that one... But putting scans and cov ops into the same "bracket" and as far as I know removing the jpscan and doing radical changes with the scan system is something I am against.
I wouldn't remove any scans or covert ops, but if anything add others.

Quote:
In the initial suggestion from Appocomaster one of the suggestion was to remove the ability to jpscan unless you were eta 4 or less from the target planet. This would make it alot harder on alot of people, and also make alliance coordination tougher.
I wasn't a fan of that, and from the "agent basis" anyone can jumpgate anyone, which lifts the restriction. The limits I wanted to impose were different...

Quote:
Also, critisising people for going distorter whore is totally and utter shite. It is an option within the rules and if some newb without an alliance isnt able to scan someone, then he should go for more amps.
I'm not criticising them. It's a very valid route, and one I'd take.
For someone who is apparently starting up a recruiting wing next round, I find your opinion to be extremely interesting.
Why does he have to spend all his time making amplifiers?

Quote:
The system as it is now allready permits the possibilities to do a good round without an alliance.
You mean say by building distorters?

Quote:
There was alot of people in smaller, or without any alliances in the top 100 the last round so with time and dedication is it fully possible to do good without an ally.
Most of the unallied people were well known names or actually in an alliance and misreported.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBerk
That said, I am very intrigued as to how you plan to form espionage. Will they have to travel on some fighter to the planet to perform covert operations, thus having an eta there and back unless they get caught where they would be killed? Will you're jgp intel gatehr travel with the fleet scanning the universe around hime for extra fleets, or will he be at the planet already monitoring their communications? Will the spies be members of that planet already that you have to contact, pay and wait for their responses?
If you can give more information on how espionage will work, travel times / spies etc, please do so.
I was eventually going to get to it, but I was first trying to get someone to actually say it was ok

Basically, missions have a hardness associated with them, between say 1 and 10.

The number of ticks it takes to complete the mission is the int((mission_hardness - number_of_agents)/2) (well, to be precise it's the maximum of 0 and that value, otherwise we'd have negative numbers :P)

So, the harder the mission the longer it takes. Scans are considered easier than covert ops, and so the harder scans are generally as hard as the easiest covert ops. This forces people to strike a balance between being discovered by sending more agents to complete the mission (which lowers stealth), and having a time delay for the mission of up to say 4 ticks.

Admittedly it's not *that* much more realistic than even covert ops, but the time delay is interesting.

I think missions should have a fairly low cost, but agents that get caught die (or have some % chance of dying) and are expensive. [not sure on this]

There's a random function so missions are more like covert ops / old scans than current scans. You can be completely immune from all missions (perhaps the covert-op type ones more easily than the scan ones) but this costs in terms of building 40-60 constructions (similar to distorter wh0ring, I guess), and that'd ruin your %s for everything else. Maybe I should increase the number of constructions
__________________
r8-10 RaH r10.5-12 MISTU

Last edited by Appocomaster; 27 Dec 2005 at 12:48.
Appocomaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 28 Dec 2005, 02:15   #11
Proxi
Ron Burgundy
 
Proxi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: A glass case of emotion
Posts: 632
Proxi has a brilliant futureProxi has a brilliant futureProxi has a brilliant futureProxi has a brilliant futureProxi has a brilliant futureProxi has a brilliant futureProxi has a brilliant futureProxi has a brilliant futureProxi has a brilliant futureProxi has a brilliant futureProxi has a brilliant future
Re: Espionage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster

I think missions should have a fairly low cost, but agents that get caught die (or have some % chance of dying) and are expensive. [not sure on this]
Would this mean we have to buy[read:train] and stockpile agents like old style scans?
__________________
[/dribble]
Proxi is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 27 Dec 2005, 07:50   #12
notsure
[TGV] Wots It
 
notsure's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 135
notsure is a splendid one to beholdnotsure is a splendid one to beholdnotsure is a splendid one to beholdnotsure is a splendid one to beholdnotsure is a splendid one to beholdnotsure is a splendid one to beholdnotsure is a splendid one to behold
Re: Espionage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
I wonder how many of the top alliances actually had scanners with over 100 or 130 amps, or access to one? And how many planets had over 100 distorters? (yes, I admit I should have looked this up BEFORE resetting everyone's constructions).
AFAIK - TGV had 2 scanners with over 130 amps - I'll take a guess that most of the alliances above us had at least 1.....
__________________
TGV Wots It
notsure is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 27 Dec 2005, 11:21   #13
TheBerk
dazed and confused
 
TheBerk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Defford
Posts: 379
TheBerk has a brilliant futureTheBerk has a brilliant futureTheBerk has a brilliant futureTheBerk has a brilliant futureTheBerk has a brilliant futureTheBerk has a brilliant futureTheBerk has a brilliant futureTheBerk has a brilliant futureTheBerk has a brilliant futureTheBerk has a brilliant futureTheBerk has a brilliant future
Re: Espionage

I finished the round on 145 amps.. When I was around to use them. (Sorry for that eXi)

In previous rounds when I have played for 'smaller' alliances I nearly always finished on at least 130 amps.
The distorter whore situation can be very annoying for alliances or solo players without access to a large scanner but it is a perfectly valid route to go down. I did this in R13 iirc while playing for F-Crew, the number of attacks on me was reduced by a very large magin and as such i got my highest finish in PA so far, the flip side was that at that time F-Crew didn't have any scanners I consdered big enough to be useful which i found fustrating as their were targets I wanted to hit but couldn't get scans for. This was the risk I took when I massed distorters, consider it a play off, you can stop people scanning you, or you can scan the universe. Both are valid tactics, and both have worked very well for me depending how I wanted to play a round.

That said, I am very intrigued as to how you plan to form espionage. Will they have to travel on some fighter to the planet to perform covert operations, thus having an eta there and back unless they get caught where they would be killed? Will you're jgp intel gatehr travel with the fleet scanning the universe around hime for extra fleets, or will he be at the planet already monitoring their communications? Will the spies be members of that planet already that you have to contact, pay and wait for their responses?
If you can give more information on how espionage will work, travel times / spies etc, please do so.
__________________
rats live on no evil star
TheBerk is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 28 Dec 2005, 02:39   #14
Appocomaster
PA Team
 
Appocomaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,449
Appocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus would
Re: Espionage

Yes
__________________
r8-10 RaH r10.5-12 MISTU
Appocomaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 29 Dec 2005, 07:48   #15
Kieker Jan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: SE, UK
Posts: 56
Kieker Jan can only hope to improve
Re: Espionage

erm.. ok let me get this clear.. use timedelayed agents for jpg.. if they get caught they die... due to gettin caught .. u get no jpg....due to timedelay...u cant send new 1es... due to to no jpg u land blind... due to landing blind u suicide ur fleet....

doesnt really sound appealing tbh, but then again i could be wrong cause i wasnt here durin "old scans"

i know rock had @least 1 scanner with 130+ amps not sure if the #2 scanner made it, and HR recruited a scanner with 100 amps halfway trough the round so hes bound to have ended with @least 130

tbh i never gave much thought to usin cov ops apart from an occasional info blackout cause i think the rest is pretty useless, untill now when i see people around the universe cov oppin eachother to destroy the buildings given by apocco to get room for more amps/dist... buildinglimt ftw
__________________
Kieker Jan
Kieker Jan is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 29 Dec 2005, 16:00   #16
Appocomaster
PA Team
 
Appocomaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,449
Appocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus would
Re: Espionage

I think the major change is scans are less certain and certainly not instant. I wrote a whole post with lots of details and formulae I came up with on the private forums, but tbh that wasn't the point. It boils down to the following:
Against a "top security" planet (i.e. spending a one off payment of 15k resources per asteroid you have to make your planet secure), you are waiting 2 ticks with a 66% chance of getting a succesful jumpgate scan back, or 1 tick with a 58% chance of getting a succesful scan back, or a 0% chance at 0 ticks (all would be 100% if the planet only had a 75% security rating).
You can send multiple agents, but I guess the agent-dying thing is a bit harsh for scans.
I actually like the idea more now though - how many agents are you willing to train up and send to make the chance of you getting a scan or covert operation more likely? "Scanners" will need more. Do you send 1 agent with a 66% chance of getting through? 2? 3? 5?

Also, blocked scans would probably show again, giving some indication of if your galaxy will get incoming.

Alliances will always be more organised - people will preorder jumpgates for their targets so they're ready, and unit scans can always be done before time (58% chance to instantly get a sucessful scan, 66% chance to get one done after 1 tick).

Espionage will just be a unification of scans and covert ops to some degree, housing them all together. They'll still be a bit different - I was considering rasing security levels for covert op missions in addition to making them take longer to complete.
scans would now have the randomness again though, and some would have a time delay. It would just generally remove the whole "launch scan recall" nature of the game.
__________________
r8-10 RaH r10.5-12 MISTU

Last edited by Appocomaster; 29 Dec 2005 at 16:06.
Appocomaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Dec 2005, 01:00   #17
Kargool
Up The Hatters!
 
Kargool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Kenilworth Road
Posts: 3,012
Kargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet society
Re: Espionage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
I think the major change is scans are less certain and certainly not instant. I wrote a whole post with lots of details and formulae I came up with on the private forums, but tbh that wasn't the point. It boils down to the following:
Against a "top security" planet (i.e. spending a one off payment of 15k resources per asteroid you have to make your planet secure), you are waiting 2 ticks with a 66% chance of getting a succesful jumpgate scan back, or 1 tick with a 58% chance of getting a succesful scan back, or a 0% chance at 0 ticks (all would be 100% if the planet only had a 75% security rating).
You can send multiple agents, but I guess the agent-dying thing is a bit harsh for scans.
I actually like the idea more now though - how many agents are you willing to train up and send to make the chance of you getting a scan or covert operation more likely? "Scanners" will need more. Do you send 1 agent with a 66% chance of getting through? 2? 3? 5?

Also, blocked scans would probably show again, giving some indication of if your galaxy will get incoming.

Alliances will always be more organised - people will preorder jumpgates for their targets so they're ready, and unit scans can always be done before time (58% chance to instantly get a sucessful scan, 66% chance to get one done after 1 tick).

Espionage will just be a unification of scans and covert ops to some degree, housing them all together. They'll still be a bit different - I was considering rasing security levels for covert op missions in addition to making them take longer to complete.
scans would now have the randomness again though, and some would have a time delay. It would just generally remove the whole "launch scan recall" nature of the game.
tbh this is starting to look ridiculus less appealing than the current system. How do you think new players will understand theese rules? and this system? And again, please answer the most rudimental question, when something isnt broke, why fix it?? Scans work perfect as they do atm, and tbh, i only see bad things gonna happen if you decide to change it. Covops needs to be worked on, i agree, but changing the scans isnt the way to fix cov ops. That would be like fixing my arm because my foot was broken in two places.
__________________
Planetarion veteran
Kargool is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Dec 2005, 19:45   #18
Legator
Pr0nstar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Look at Galstatus
Posts: 1,006
Legator is a splendid one to beholdLegator is a splendid one to beholdLegator is a splendid one to beholdLegator is a splendid one to beholdLegator is a splendid one to beholdLegator is a splendid one to beholdLegator is a splendid one to behold
Re: Espionage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
tbh this is starting to look ridiculus less appealing than the current system. How do you think new players will understand theese rules? and this system? And again, please answer the most rudimental question, when something isnt broke, why fix it?? Scans work perfect as they do atm, and tbh, i only see bad things gonna happen if you decide to change it. Covops needs to be worked on, i agree, but changing the scans isnt the way to fix cov ops. That would be like fixing my arm because my foot was broken in two places.
i dont like it at all but ive to agree with Kargool. scans are done in a nice way atm, some minor fixes are ok like showing blocked scan-attempts or so but why the hell you guys want to change something good working ???
__________________
Ascendancy FTW !!!!!!
Reunion FDS !
Proud to be Founder and Member of VisioN
Honoured to have been [1up] Member

VfL Bochum >*
Legator is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Dec 2005, 01:06   #19
Appocomaster
PA Team
 
Appocomaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,449
Appocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus would
Re: Espionage

Scans pre R10 were "fine". Why were they changed then?

I will try and make the system "clearer", but tbh what is wrong with having chance in scans?
__________________
r8-10 RaH r10.5-12 MISTU
Appocomaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Dec 2005, 01:27   #20
Kargool
Up The Hatters!
 
Kargool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Kenilworth Road
Posts: 3,012
Kargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet society
Re: Espionage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Scans pre R10 were "fine". Why were they changed then?

Well, I wasnt the one that made the "change" then. You are the one now. So please enlighten us as to your reasons for making this change instead of dodging the question.
__________________
Planetarion veteran
Kargool is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Dec 2005, 01:15   #21
Kargool
Up The Hatters!
 
Kargool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Kenilworth Road
Posts: 3,012
Kargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet society
Re: Espionage

If i wanted a game of chance, I would have been playing poker or Risk. Strategy games like this is fun because they challenge the strategy of the game. You want some more chance in the game, why not introduce dicerolls for battles.. *sigh*
__________________
Planetarion veteran
Kargool is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Dec 2005, 01:37   #22
Appocomaster
PA Team
 
Appocomaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,449
Appocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus would
Re: Espionage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
If i wanted a game of chance, I would have been playing poker or Risk. Strategy games like this is fun because they challenge the strategy of the game. You want some more chance in the game, why not introduce dicerolls for battles.. *sigh*
At the moment theres so little chance in the game. Most of it is galaxy choice and exile. At least a bit more chance might make it more exciting

I'll try and justify it more, but not tonight. I need some sleep
__________________
r8-10 RaH r10.5-12 MISTU
Appocomaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Dec 2005, 01:46   #23
Kargool
Up The Hatters!
 
Kargool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Kenilworth Road
Posts: 3,012
Kargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet society
Re: Espionage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
At the moment theres so little chance in the game. Most of it is galaxy choice and exile. At least a bit more chance might make it more exciting

I'll try and justify it more, but not tonight. I need some sleep
So you think that chance should be a vital part to winning a game that lasts 3 months?
__________________
Planetarion veteran
Kargool is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Dec 2005, 01:57   #24
Appocomaster
PA Team
 
Appocomaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,449
Appocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus would
Re: Espionage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
So you think that chance should be a vital part to winning a game that lasts 3 months?
no, but it shouldn't be more predictable than deciding whether or not, for example, a snowball will roll up or down a hill.
__________________
r8-10 RaH r10.5-12 MISTU
Appocomaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Dec 2005, 02:08   #25
Kargool
Up The Hatters!
 
Kargool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Kenilworth Road
Posts: 3,012
Kargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet society
Re: Espionage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
no, but it shouldn't be more predictable than deciding whether or not, for example, a snowball will roll up or down a hill.
I am hoping this was a joke..
__________________
Planetarion veteran
Kargool is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Dec 2005, 03:57   #26
Veedeejem!
Hibernating
 
Veedeejem!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Team Kesha
Posts: 1,621
Veedeejem! has a reputation beyond reputeVeedeejem! has a reputation beyond reputeVeedeejem! has a reputation beyond reputeVeedeejem! has a reputation beyond reputeVeedeejem! has a reputation beyond reputeVeedeejem! has a reputation beyond reputeVeedeejem! has a reputation beyond reputeVeedeejem! has a reputation beyond reputeVeedeejem! has a reputation beyond reputeVeedeejem! has a reputation beyond reputeVeedeejem! has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Espionage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
no, but it shouldn't be more predictable than deciding whether or not, for example, a snowball will roll up or down a hill.
A snowball rolling up a hill?

/me throws the laws of gravity out of the window & then flies home
__________________
[InSomnia]
Official designated driver

[ToF] - [eXilition] - [Rock] - [Denial] - [DLR] - [eVolution] - [ODDR] - [HR] - [Ultores] - [Apprime] - [Ironborn]
Veedeejem! is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 31 Dec 2005, 01:28   #27
mist
Jolt's best friend
 
mist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,101
mist is a name known to allmist is a name known to allmist is a name known to allmist is a name known to allmist is a name known to allmist is a name known to all
Re: Espionage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
At the moment theres so little chance in the game. Most of it is galaxy choice and exile. At least a bit more chance might make it more exciting
if the chance comes from being outplayed, then yes. if the chance is flip of a coin, then why are people going to pay you £5 for a round when they can get a lot of coins for that?
__________________
<Karmulian> subtle as a kick in the nuts as always
mist is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Dec 2005, 04:09   #28
Pilatus
Registered User
 
Pilatus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Norway
Posts: 295
Pilatus has a spectacular aura aboutPilatus has a spectacular aura about
Re: Espionage

Why not just making different eta for finishing certain construictions? Like +1 eta for building a distorter, and maybe making important cons like factories ones a tick faster. And pls drop that annoying co-op bs.

And please make pa less predictable then deciding if a snowball will roll up or down a hill
Pilatus is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Dec 2005, 06:03   #29
Anaram
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Nick Finally Working
Posts: 84
Anaram is infamous around these partsAnaram is infamous around these parts
Re: Espionage

Hasn't the whole purpose of waves/scans system since time immemorial been to give advantage to big organized alliances and to players with (multi) scan planets? Why the sudden change of heart?
__________________
Juffo-Wup fills in my fibers and I grow turgid. Violent action ensues.
"Who needs the Sun when you've got me around?"
Anaram is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Dec 2005, 06:28   #30
Pilatus
Registered User
 
Pilatus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Norway
Posts: 295
Pilatus has a spectacular aura aboutPilatus has a spectacular aura about
Re: Espionage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaram
Hasn't the whole purpose of waves/scans system since time immemorial been to give advantage to big organized alliances and to players with (multi) scan planets? Why the sudden change of heart?
To me, it seems like they have always tried to change it, to make it more fair. But it's not always been successful. Problem is that there's always someone that's trying to find new ways to turn new rules to their advantages, and that it's not easy to stop multies. Tbh, i don't think it helps much, if they are trying to make formulas to make snowball roll up hills
Pilatus is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Dec 2005, 15:15   #31
Proxi
Ron Burgundy
 
Proxi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: A glass case of emotion
Posts: 632
Proxi has a brilliant futureProxi has a brilliant futureProxi has a brilliant futureProxi has a brilliant futureProxi has a brilliant futureProxi has a brilliant futureProxi has a brilliant futureProxi has a brilliant futureProxi has a brilliant futureProxi has a brilliant futureProxi has a brilliant future
Re: Espionage

I have to say I agree with kargool here, i want to be assured of certain information before I land my attack, not have to recall and be pissed off because of some odd espionage system.

It ain't broke, so don't fix it.
__________________
[/dribble]
Proxi is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 31 Dec 2005, 19:46   #32
Appocomaster
PA Team
 
Appocomaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,449
Appocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus would
Re: Espionage

Ok.
Firstly on the chance front, I don't see an issue in itself with bringing back chance in scans.
The issue with that seems to be a combination of chance and a time delay, which makes most scans more difficult. I take it there's no complaint about time delays for covert ops, especially if some of them are stronger?

I don't see how new players will suffer, as they'll have one system to learn instead of two.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaram
Hasn't the whole purpose of waves/scans system since time immemorial been to give advantage to big organized alliances and to players with (multi) scan planets? Why the sudden change of heart?
Is is right to give an advantage to big organised alliances? I'd prefer to try and level the playing field a bit more. While changing it, I thought it'd be interesting to merge the two as they're quite related. I've given my opinion on how scans aren't that realistic anyway

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilatus
Why not just making different eta for finishing certain construictions? Like +1 eta for building a distorter, and maybe making important cons like factories ones a tick faster. And pls drop that annoying co-op bs.

And please make pa less predictable then deciding if a snowball will roll up or down a hill
I think covert ops has a part. I don't see what relevance having constructions different construction times has?
Covert ops isn't that bad. I think it could be good with modifications.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
I am hoping this was a joke..
No, actually it wasn't. Snowballs generally roll downhill. Some of the game is chance, but not loads of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
if the chance comes from being outplayed, then yes. if the chance is flip of a coin, then why are people going to pay you £5 for a round when they can get a lot of coins for that?
500 coins, unless you start converting currency. I don't want it total chance, but I've seen a new player leave the game at the end of the first round because he got bored of attacking and recalling.
__________________
r8-10 RaH r10.5-12 MISTU
Appocomaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 31 Dec 2005, 20:18   #33
Kargool
Up The Hatters!
 
Kargool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Kenilworth Road
Posts: 3,012
Kargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet society
Re: Espionage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster

500 coins, unless you start converting currency. I don't want it total chance, but I've seen a new player leave the game at the end of the first round because he got bored of attacking and recalling.
I've seen players leave because of the invoking of the defence rules, I've seen players leave because of not upholding the defence rule. I've seen players leave because of the game developers have lost their contact with the players, and stuff, we have all seen players leave the game.. Ur argument about one guy leaving isnt valid tbh...


And you still havent answered the question I asked : Why the change??
__________________
Planetarion veteran
Kargool is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 1 Jan 2006, 18:36   #34
Appocomaster
PA Team
 
Appocomaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,449
Appocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus would
Re: Espionage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
I've seen players leave because of the invoking of the defence rules, I've seen players leave because of not upholding the defence rule.
I've seen players leave because of the game developers have lost their contact with the players, and stuff, we have all seen players leave the game..
And you tell me off for not being specific! I can't comment on the support planet cases like that, but the rule was introduced to stop support planets, not to stop people defending their friends two times in a round. If people are going to get upset because players have friends outside their alliance that have sent defence before, then I'm not sure there's much we can do.
I've seen players leave the game, but the most common reason is generally RL issues.
You're welcome to throw rocks at me especially for "game development" and "loosing contact with the game" if you wish, as it's my department. I can't see how you can get upset with us for not changing the game and trying to change the game. Most people are very willing to see the game "improve", yet neglect to mention how to improve it, or mention general ideas like "get more players". The remaining ideas are generally, if anything, more unrealistic than most of my ideas, or are only minor clarifications and improvements on the existing game (e.g. timestamping jumpgate probes). Most of you are here and like playing the game because you're used to it. At most there's one or two changes and ship stats changes in each round, and people can cope with that more than majorly changing the game. While we're sitting on a couple of ideas that have been big discussion topics, there's not much support for specific suggestions in improving the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
And you still havent answered the question I asked : Why the change??
I've tried to explain; perhaps you've not read what I've written.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
I don't see how new players will suffer, as they'll have one system to learn instead of two.
"Makes two systems into one. Benefit to new players as less to learn"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Is is right to give an advantage to big organised alliances? I'd prefer to try and level the playing field a bit more. While changing it, I thought it'd be interesting to merge the two as they're quite related. I've given my opinion on how scans aren't that realistic anyway
This literally negates the idea of "wave amplifier wh0res". It means that it's more up to the target planet to stop the scan than the planet who's scanning to have a good scanning ability.
Probably more contraversal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Secondly, all this "concept stuff".
Waves is meant to send scans out to count things. If you want to debate realism, I fail to see how waves can do most of the specified scans, and even if they can somehow detect which researches you've done, I don't quite see how amplifiers work properly (even if they were to boost accuracy the more you had). Surely if anything, amplifiers should let you scan yourself, your galaxy, your cluster then your universe? (as an aisde, that'd be a far better way to limit free planets). If anything it makes more sense for a guy to go to the planet and have a look around. While he's there, he might as well attempt to stick plastique on likely targets (although that's slightly more difficult and reflected in the fine details, should we ever get that far in the espionage discussion).
"Probably more realistic"

The scan and covert ops branches are related by them both being operations on a hostile planet, currently performed instantaneously. I think Covert Ops could be made stronger in terms of what they can do and in some cases the general damage (if people destroy one of my roids I usually laugh more than anything else; same with ships). A time delay might be more helpful though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Ur argument about one guy leaving isnt valid tbh...
Why not? It's an example to show that people stay here for the community more than anything else. If we had new features or things that progressed over the round it might make it more interesting.



What about if there were no time delay for scans, only covert ops? Basically the only difference would be that amplifiers wouldn't be necessary, and in general scans would be slightly easier to do (especially at the beginning of the round), but random
__________________
r8-10 RaH r10.5-12 MISTU
Appocomaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Jan 2006, 02:29   #35
Kargool
Up The Hatters!
 
Kargool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Kenilworth Road
Posts: 3,012
Kargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet societyKargool is a pillar of this Internet society
Re: Espionage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Lots of rubbish




First of all, the "realism" in the game. We are talking about ships that teleport fracking asteroids from one planet to another. We are talking about ships that only targets certain types of shipshulls. We are talking about ships that is only capable of destroying structures on the surface on planets...

Can we STOP trying to use "realism" as an argument for bringing in something someone wants to change?? Its utter moronic. For example when we use this "jumpgate" technology I understand is somehow adapted from Babylon 5, please watch the original series as they are able to pick up fleet movements far away from the jumpgate at B5 and along time before they jump into the gate at B5.. Therefore I think scans are possible "realisticly" the way I interpret the universe in Planetarion. If we had full realism, noone would have had ships capable of leaving their own galaxy..

Secondly, the game changes I dont have a problem with. But now you want to do this total new shape of PA, that causes PA to halt for over a month before we get a real round, then there will be several months (my guess) before we will get the PaN round. Are you guys not afraid that all the waiting time will make people loose interest of the game??

And, I am working on some extended changesuggestions based on the thread i had earlier about some changes I saw as possible outcomes. (orignal thread here: http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=187824) But my main pri will always lie with the alliance im helping "running"

And last, why is it so difficult to clab together this "freeround" in 2-3 weeks and start the game allready?
__________________
Planetarion veteran
Kargool is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Jan 2006, 11:50   #36
Appocomaster
PA Team
 
Appocomaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,449
Appocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus would
Re: Espionage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
First of all, the "realism" in the game. We are talking about ships that teleport fracking asteroids from one planet to another. We are talking about ships that only targets certain types of shipshulls. We are talking about ships that is only capable of destroying structures on the surface on planets...

Can we STOP trying to use "realism" as an argument for bringing in something someone wants to change?? Its utter moronic. For example when we use this "jumpgate" technology I understand is somehow adapted from Babylon 5, please watch the original series as they are able to pick up fleet movements far away from the jumpgate at B5 and along time before they jump into the gate at B5.. Therefore I think scans are possible "realisticly" the way I interpret the universe in Planetarion. If we had full realism, noone would have had ships capable of leaving their own galaxy..
That wasn't the only reason. Maybe if you stopped finding one thing you had a problem with and ranting about it for two paragraphs and commented on other things as well we might get a conclusion in the next few pages


Quote:
Secondly, the game changes I dont have a problem with. But now you want to do this total new shape of PA, that causes PA to halt for over a month before we get a real round, then there will be several months (my guess) before we will get the PaN round. Are you guys not afraid that all the waiting time will make people loose interest of the game??
Have you not read the schedule? we have speedgames, an alliance competition (as suggested on PD by someone), and a free round, and then PAN. Is this not enough to keep people occupied?

Quote:
And, I am working on some extended changesuggestions based on the thread i had earlier about some changes I saw as possible outcomes. (orignal thread here: http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=187824) But my main pri will always lie with the alliance im helping "running"
I look forward to you trying to fix problems to the first suggestion and giving a more practical input and examples of the second solution.

Quote:
And last, why is it so difficult to clab together this "freeround" in 2-3 weeks and start the game allready?
What do you mean? again, reference to www.planetarion.com/news.php
__________________
r8-10 RaH r10.5-12 MISTU
Appocomaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 31 Dec 2005, 23:53   #37
hylands
The beertender
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 73
hylands is on a distinguished road
Re: Espionage

first of all the whole agents thing sucks really it means u even land less then now!!! jpg scans are powerfull but not the best scan by far. also the cov ops are useless the only ones u use are hacking: res transfers and the dist amp killer. all others are rediculous and u can't get far by using them. maybe give xp? (and i mean reasonable been said in beta when i was cov op whore) but in short words cov ops suck atm nobody does them as a main as there's nothing to gain. maybe make some sort of jpg cov op?
__________________
Bether to die on your feet, then to live on your knees
r12 f-crew
r13 f-crew later Veneratio
r14 Veneratio later vengeance
r15-r20Vengeance HC(r19-20)
r21 finally piece and quiet(round off)
r22 rehired at Vengeance as BC
r23 EXI scorp whore
r24 to 27 XVX
r27 to 31 Vengeance HC
r32 till now Tides of Vengeance spirit
hylands is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 31 Dec 2005, 23:55   #38
hylands
The beertender
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 73
hylands is on a distinguished road
Re: Espionage

also on the time delay don't u just kill any speed that was left in the game!
and if that aint all u are exspecting to have 24/7 scanners and ac's as they need even more time with a time delay and they allready need alot of time setting up something decent
__________________
Bether to die on your feet, then to live on your knees
r12 f-crew
r13 f-crew later Veneratio
r14 Veneratio later vengeance
r15-r20Vengeance HC(r19-20)
r21 finally piece and quiet(round off)
r22 rehired at Vengeance as BC
r23 EXI scorp whore
r24 to 27 XVX
r27 to 31 Vengeance HC
r32 till now Tides of Vengeance spirit
hylands is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 1 Jan 2006, 00:48   #39
Judge
Doh!
 
Judge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Nemo Mortalium Omnibus Horis Sapit
Posts: 1,720
Judge is infamous around these parts
Re: Espionage

I fail to see a connection between Cov ops (espionage) and waves, unless you are going to implement a new type of Cov-op that completely blocks any sort of scan on a planet for a given numbe rof ticks, but at a significant cost?

For example destrucion of 5 (of your own) asteroids using a Cov-op Nuke to deploy an emp barrier for a given number of ticks (4) perhaps, but perhaps only useable once every 48 ticks ?

The result would be completely bocked scans in and out for the given period.
Judge is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 1 Jan 2006, 13:56   #40
hylands
The beertender
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 73
hylands is on a distinguished road
Re: Espionage

i agree judge that it might be a good idea to play waves versus cov ops making cov op way better then they are now as atm they suck
__________________
Bether to die on your feet, then to live on your knees
r12 f-crew
r13 f-crew later Veneratio
r14 Veneratio later vengeance
r15-r20Vengeance HC(r19-20)
r21 finally piece and quiet(round off)
r22 rehired at Vengeance as BC
r23 EXI scorp whore
r24 to 27 XVX
r27 to 31 Vengeance HC
r32 till now Tides of Vengeance spirit
hylands is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 1 Jan 2006, 14:37   #41
Kal
Inactive peon
 
Kal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,050
Kal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant future
Re: Espionage

Personally I think there should be more uncertainty in the game in the sense that people shouldn;t have to relly on scans - scans should be a useful addition, but people should be able to plan an attack in such a way that chances are they will be able to land and roid - the onus should be on taking risks, becuase taking risks is fun - predictability is not. I for one could see myself landing an attack without a scan to tell me if there is defence or not.
__________________
Kal

Round 6-10 NoS member-->NoS junior HC
Round 10.5 FAnG member
Round 11-15 PATeam
Round 17-30 PATeam
Round 31 ???

Check out toastmonster.com for crazy illustrations and art
Kal is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 1 Jan 2006, 15:52   #42
SepH
no
 
SepH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: in a chair
Posts: 329
SepH is a splendid one to beholdSepH is a splendid one to beholdSepH is a splendid one to beholdSepH is a splendid one to beholdSepH is a splendid one to beholdSepH is a splendid one to beholdSepH is a splendid one to beholdSepH is a splendid one to behold
Re: Espionage

mid round... you'll do it once, then your fleet is dead
SepH is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 1 Jan 2006, 16:01   #43
furball
Registered Awesome Person
 
furball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,676
furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Espionage

If you're going to be landing attacks without scans, then you need the defenders to not be able to kill your entire attack fleet. If they do, then you're screwed for a good couple of weeks or more.

Defence is sent to stop you from getting any roids. Since most attack fleets are one class only, then to do so you must kill the entire fleet.


So Kal - either defence is impossible, or you're talking complete crap.
__________________
Finally free!
furball is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 1 Jan 2006, 17:23   #44
Kal
Inactive peon
 
Kal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,050
Kal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant future
Re: Espionage

or we make it easy to rebuild.

in pax i lost my fleet mid round and ended with a high rank
__________________
Kal

Round 6-10 NoS member-->NoS junior HC
Round 10.5 FAnG member
Round 11-15 PATeam
Round 17-30 PATeam
Round 31 ???

Check out toastmonster.com for crazy illustrations and art
Kal is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 1 Jan 2006, 17:40   #45
furball
Registered Awesome Person
 
furball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,676
furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Espionage

PaX was a mess though. And how do you make it easy to rebuild? - salvage?


Oh dear, I just had visions of Round 4 again.
__________________
Finally free!
furball is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 1 Jan 2006, 17:55   #46
Proxi
Ron Burgundy
 
Proxi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: A glass case of emotion
Posts: 632
Proxi has a brilliant futureProxi has a brilliant futureProxi has a brilliant futureProxi has a brilliant futureProxi has a brilliant futureProxi has a brilliant futureProxi has a brilliant futureProxi has a brilliant futureProxi has a brilliant futureProxi has a brilliant futureProxi has a brilliant future
Re: Espionage

Predictability may not be fun, but neither is getting your entire fleet twatted for absolutely no gain. Weather we like it or not people have come to rely on scans, no one would choose to land blind if given the choice.
If you want a bit of variety, try doing fakes.
__________________
[/dribble]
Proxi is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 4 Jan 2006, 15:20   #47
Ultimate Newbie
Commodore
 
Ultimate Newbie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 3,176
Ultimate Newbie is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himUltimate Newbie is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himUltimate Newbie is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himUltimate Newbie is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himUltimate Newbie is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himUltimate Newbie is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himUltimate Newbie is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himUltimate Newbie is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himUltimate Newbie is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himUltimate Newbie is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himUltimate Newbie is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like him
Re: Espionage

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
PaX was a mess though. And how do you make it easy to rebuild? - salvage?
Easy. You implement an idea that i have been touting since R5 (maybe R4) which i called War Loans.

The idea is that when you loose a fleet, or ships from a fleet, you are able to get a lump sum loan from the 'intergalactic council'. You could choose three levels - 75% of the lost fleet, 50% or 25%. The drawback is that those loans are repaid in full at 50%, 30% and 10% of your income respectively. It is totally non-abusable as you have to repay all your money back over time and even at the highest setting you cant regain all of your fleet (thus making fleet catching still viable). However, what it does mean is that players who loose big chunks of their fleet are not crippled for the entire round, which imo is a good thing.

But the idea has been looked over so many timesi n the past it should almost be a proverb :\

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Mr Newbie would probably quit on the spot.
No, i probably wouldnt. It would warrant an eyebrow raise, however. .
__________________
#Strategy ; #Support - Sovereign
--- --- ---
"The Cake is a Lie."
Ultimate Newbie is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 4 Jan 2006, 17:55   #48
Proxi
Ron Burgundy
 
Proxi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: A glass case of emotion
Posts: 632
Proxi has a brilliant futureProxi has a brilliant futureProxi has a brilliant futureProxi has a brilliant futureProxi has a brilliant futureProxi has a brilliant futureProxi has a brilliant futureProxi has a brilliant futureProxi has a brilliant futureProxi has a brilliant futureProxi has a brilliant future
Re: Espionage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
War Loans.
Suiciding for xp too much more rewarding/easy imo.
__________________
[/dribble]
Proxi is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 4 Jan 2006, 18:04   #49
Ultimate Newbie
Commodore
 
Ultimate Newbie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 3,176
Ultimate Newbie is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himUltimate Newbie is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himUltimate Newbie is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himUltimate Newbie is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himUltimate Newbie is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himUltimate Newbie is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himUltimate Newbie is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himUltimate Newbie is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himUltimate Newbie is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himUltimate Newbie is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himUltimate Newbie is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like him
Re: Espionage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Proxi
Suiciding for xp too much more rewarding/easy imo.
I am not so sure - at most you would only be getting back 75% of your fleet. There was a discussion on IRC in #strategy about it when i first posted it and it was suggested that only one loan should be taken out at any one time - that way you newbie-proof the system to stop them from taking out more loans than their income provides, plus the system is designed not to baby-sit the whole universe, but to lend a hand to those in need when they need it most.

I didnt go into alot of detail as tbh i just expected it to be ignored again, but its a fairly wholesome idea.
__________________
#Strategy ; #Support - Sovereign
--- --- ---
"The Cake is a Lie."
Ultimate Newbie is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 1 Jan 2006, 19:24   #50
Aragno
xVx techie
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Norway
Posts: 52
Aragno will become famous soon enoughAragno will become famous soon enough
Thumbs down Re: Espionage

About the time delay.

I played round 2-5. I then quit as I didn't have time as I started at Uni. Just started again this round (15).

If time delay comes into play I know that I for one will not have the time to play any more. As I understand I would then have to log on, order a scan, log of, log on 1-4 hours later get the results, order the attack. Then log on in a couple of hours order a scan, wait a few hours check the scan result and pull or land.

With a wife and child I can't see how I will be able to manage that. PA as it is still a game that favors players that can be online a lot. This will not help.
Aragno is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 15:00.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2002 - 2018