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Unread 15 Jul 2017, 16:14   #1
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Kai's Rd 73 Stats

Here is my set of stats offered to Jintao for Rd 73 -

Enjoy!

http://beta.planetarion.com/manual.p...n=983017423412
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Unread 15 Jul 2017, 17:56   #2
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

Ah, that's what he meant with random!
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Unread 15 Jul 2017, 17:58   #3
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

April 1st?......

Test feature for round 73... race removal?
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Unread 15 Jul 2017, 18:04   #4
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

I really like these.
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Unread 15 Jul 2017, 18:58   #5
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

Those 2 DELETE ME ships look really overpowered, and it's very confusing that they have the same name.
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Unread 15 Jul 2017, 19:43   #6
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

look like promising stats
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Unread 15 Jul 2017, 21:03   #7
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

I would also suggest that the races basic stats get tweaked aswell
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Unread 15 Jul 2017, 21:54   #8
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

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I would also suggest that the races basic stats get tweaked aswell
They did. Ac/DC wise I tried to make each race best at its own ability. To keep some continuity.
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Unread 16 Jul 2017, 04:35   #9
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

Jintao has allready decided on some set, this why noone has offering any new ones apparently.

[12:49:56] <Appocomaster> Jintao confirmed he has stats for next round confirmed
[12:50:00] <Appocomaster> so you'd be planning for the round after
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Unread 16 Jul 2017, 06:47   #10
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Jintao has allready decided on some set, this why noone has offering any new ones apparently.

[12:49:56] <Appocomaster> Jintao confirmed he has stats for next round confirmed
[12:50:00] <Appocomaster> so you'd be planning for the round after
Mine are up on beta, which set do you think that is.
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Unread 16 Jul 2017, 07:04   #11
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

Very interesting set to be honest much more defensive then previous rounds kinda like it alittle but xan having steal just looks weird
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Unread 16 Jul 2017, 07:11   #12
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
They did. Ac/DC wise I tried to make each race best at its own ability. To keep some continuity.
I guessing he meant the race research/Construction and other stuff.

Oh and can you have same init kill ships shooting at eachother? I thought that caused some really last minute changes in current round.
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Unread 16 Jul 2017, 08:27   #13
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

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Oh and can you have same init kill ships shooting at eachother? I thought that caused some really last minute changes in current round.
It's a little more complicated than that. The short answer: no, I don't see problems with inits in these stats.

The long answer: when 2 ships on the same side fire at the same init, it is undefined which one fires first. If the ships have the exact same T1/T2/T3, that's not a problem, but when they don't, things get annoying. For example:

Pegasus -> Fi/Co @ init 6
Harpy -> Fi @ init 6

Say the Harpy fires first and kills all Fi present. The Pegasus fires second, has no T1 targets left, and instead kills Co. Now say the Pegasus fires first and kills al Fi present. The Harpy comes second, has no T1 targets left, and sits there doing nothing. The only way you can tell which is going to happen is if you use the bcalc.

This is one of the places where my offline bcalc mzCalc (intentionally) deviates from the official combat engine: because you can't tell from the stats which ship fires first, it instead uses half the Harpies and half the Pegasus needed to fully kill the Fi, and then lets the remaining Pegasus kill Co; it's the halfway solution.

(The combat engine may have other quirks that I don't know about, too.)
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Unread 16 Jul 2017, 10:54   #14
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
It's a little more complicated than that. The short answer: no, I don't see problems with inits in these stats.

The long answer: when 2 ships on the same side fire at the same init, it is undefined which one fires first. If the ships have the exact same T1/T2/T3, that's not a problem, but when they don't, things get annoying. For example:

Pegasus -> Fi/Co @ init 6
Harpy -> Fi @ init 6

Say the Harpy fires first and kills all Fi present. The Pegasus fires second, has no T1 targets left, and instead kills Co. Now say the Pegasus fires first and kills al Fi present. The Harpy comes second, has no T1 targets left, and sits there doing nothing. The only way you can tell which is going to happen is if you use the bcalc.

This is one of the places where my offline bcalc mzCalc (intentionally) deviates from the official combat engine: because you can't tell from the stats which ship fires first, it instead uses half the Harpies and half the Pegasus needed to fully kill the Fi, and then lets the remaining Pegasus kill Co; it's the halfway solution.

(The combat engine may have other quirks that I don't know about, too.)
I'm pretty sure the combat engine do ETD ships first then zik, xan, cath and ter. Which was the reason for stay change this round. Vindi and Cutlass had same init. Combat engine knew both vindi and Cutlass was firing init 5 but if the vindi killed all fi, all the DMG from Cutlass was wasted. Instead of splitting DMG from the start. So yes same init and firing at same classes is an issue.
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Unread 16 Jul 2017, 12:18   #15
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

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Originally Posted by Shhhhhhh View Post
I guessing he meant the race research/Construction and other stuff.

Oh and can you have same init kill ships shooting at eachother? I thought that caused some really last minute changes in current round.
OK I'll bite here. I have just stayed at the stats for 15 mins to find the two ships and can't see it.
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Unread 16 Jul 2017, 13:23   #16
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

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OK I'll bite here. I have just stayed at the stats for 15 mins to find the two ships and can't see it.


Beetle and Harpy?

Mara and Gryphon?
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Unread 16 Jul 2017, 13:39   #17
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

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Beetle and Harpy?

Mara and Gryphon?
They don't matter. It has to fire from the same class and have a diff t1/t2 config to matter.

Nothing like that in this set.

More important question is what to do with racial bonuses if we go with this set. You can't keep the 40% salvage bonus for cat etc
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Unread 16 Jul 2017, 14:24   #18
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

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Beetle and Harpy?

Mara and Gryphon?
You had me worried. Those don't matter. It's firing at same time on same target with same firing order that's a problem.

In regards to racial bonus. I would take the on area that each race excels in and scrap the rest.

Terran - Cons, Cat - Research, Xan - Alert/Stealth, Zik - Production.
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Unread 16 Jul 2017, 17:16   #19
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

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Originally Posted by Sandvold View Post
I'm pretty sure the combat engine do ETD ships first then zik, xan, cath and ter.
I can imagine why an implementation would choose to do combat ship-by-ship (within the same init), but I see no reason why it would go race-by-race. You would actually have to do add an entire layer of logic to an already complicated piece of code to make it work like that. It doesn't sound plausible to me.

More significantly, I've seen it happen the other way around as well, where some ship fired before a ship that was below it in the spreadsheet (probably in the early 50s, but I'm not sure) .
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Unread 16 Jul 2017, 17:34   #20
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

Just me who thinks this looks utterly lame? Remove etd just to make all etd's? 👎
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Unread 16 Jul 2017, 17:55   #21
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I can imagine why an implementation would choose to do combat ship-by-ship (within the same init), but I see no reason why it would go race-by-race. You would actually have to do add an entire layer of logic to an already complicated piece of code to make it work like that. It doesn't sound plausible to me.

More significantly, I've seen it happen the other way around as well, where some ship fired before a ship that was below it in the spreadsheet (probably in the early 50s, but I'm not sure) .
As far as i understand it the combat engine goes bottom to top within the same init each combat round. As to why the etd ships have always won since they are the cloest to the bottom

Although now we have gone totally off topic
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Unread 17 Jul 2017, 09:06   #22
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

How far done are these? are the EMP eff's final or not done yet?
Anything else you're still working on?
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Unread 17 Jul 2017, 11:02   #23
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

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How far done are these? are the EMP eff's final or not done yet?
Anything else you're still working on?
We're running calcs atm to check for weird shit Emp is set around 115-120%. With no emp race there is no need to push it so high for lack of kill ships.

Targeting and ints is bolted on as far as I'm concerned. The soloing matrix stacks up 9's all round (emp taken as a land and landed on guarantee)

I have asked Jintao and Appoco to raise salvage to promote defence more.

Also have asked for war mode to be taken off for SKs. I have been told both are OK in principle.

Regarding SKs with the ability to make yourself immune I see no reason to gimp them behind war setting anymore. They are part of the game so we should use them in all combat.
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Unread 17 Jul 2017, 11:48   #24
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

I tihnk the Genie needs 2 more guns, 40% eff on EMP atm.
Banshee has EREs of 100 ,so cant be EMPed.
I'd make sure to have all the base stuff finished before you balance it, sometimes you end up with nasty surprises, like the Genie can only get 2 or 3 guns, not 2,7. , a big difference on EMP output.
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Unread 17 Jul 2017, 13:36   #25
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

Ahh both of those were the delete me ships that the importing screwed up. Thank you for that I'll sort it now
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Unread 17 Jul 2017, 15:14   #26
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

I'm scratching my head at these stats tbh, but then again I've barely had 1/2 cup of coffee this morning.

Seems to be a little all over the place, or having 4 ETD-ish races...
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Unread 17 Jul 2017, 16:05   #27
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

Im with Theodd on this.

I like that its a new way of doing stats, but its just too much. All are basicly ETDs.

I would rather see that we keep the racial as they used to:

Terr: Thougher than the rest. Caths have more EMP than the other. Xan more cloaked and higher eff/weaker armor etc.
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Unread 17 Jul 2017, 17:38   #28
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

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Im with Theodd on this.

I like that its a new way of doing stats, but its just too much. All are basicly ETDs.

I would rather see that we keep the racial as they used to:

Terr: Thougher than the rest. Caths have more EMP than the other. Xan more cloaked and higher eff/weaker armor etc.
How i read it these stats arnt being even considered for next round.
Think we going for the mz set(again)
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Unread 17 Jul 2017, 17:42   #29
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

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How i read it these stats arnt being even considered for next round.
Think we going for the mz set(again)
Which shows your reading level when I've been told they will be run.
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Unread 17 Jul 2017, 19:52   #30
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

No disrespect to Kai's stats, but if its a full uni of Etd... ill sit 7 weeks out... or use the time to do my own set.
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Unread 17 Jul 2017, 20:29   #31
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

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No disrespect to Kai's stats, but if its a full uni of Etd... ill sit 7 weeks out... or use the time to do my own set.
Please go for it need any advice just ask!

No one liked the cloak free idea, turned out to be one of the better rounds playing.

I'm actually hoping that forcing people to use ships they never have before may convert some people. Fingers crossed!
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Unread 17 Jul 2017, 20:38   #32
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

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please go for it need any advice just ask!
tg?
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Unread 17 Jul 2017, 20:39   #33
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

This set certainly has room for lots of intereseting options, may as well give it a shot.
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Unread 17 Jul 2017, 23:40   #34
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

One minor criticism (and it is minor), the Cathaar planet has more steal ships than EMP. Can we not alternate it, just it's still Cath?
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Unread 18 Jul 2017, 03:32   #35
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

hmmmm, just my thoughts

There are 4 races 8 pod types

Ter has zero attack partners with its DE and BS pods
xan(fr) and cath(co) can group with one of their pods
Zik(fr,co) can pair with both pods, zik overpowered?

The 40% salvage bonus for Cath would be pretty strong as well, considering they only have 1 emp more than other races.

These stats could only be more defensive if they include the old PDS!
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Unread 18 Jul 2017, 05:38   #36
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

i dont feel this set is close to beeing finished tbh

* why do both TER steal ships target FI ?
* why TER have no teamup partner for either their attacking class?
* whats with the races characterisitics ? imo they get abonded too much

that beeing said this set has some good ideas anyhow - i just feel it should be closer to the original races ideas (give ter mainly heavy harmoured kill ships - cath mainly emp ships etc...)
i dont mind bringing in an emp ship or steal ship for said races, but this feels like just 4x etd

interesting set that needs a lot of work still - imho
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Unread 18 Jul 2017, 05:45   #37
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

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Originally Posted by Linx View Post
hmmmm, just my thoughts

These stats could only be more defensive if they include the old PDS!
My stats would have PDS x
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Unread 18 Jul 2017, 06:31   #38
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

Could you add fi pods for Ter, De pods for cath, Cr pods for xan and bs pods for ziks?
Atm those race have to steal pods if they want to use that fleet which means a big advantage to those guys that know ahead of time someone will crash a lot of pods on them.
While for others its risky to go for those fleets. Giving a big advantage to cheaters.
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Unread 18 Jul 2017, 06:55   #39
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
i dont feel this set is close to beeing finished tbh

* why do both TER steal ships target FI ?
Because Terran needs to steal Fi for its 3rd roiding class
Quote:
* why TER have no teamup partner for either their
attacking class?
The same reason Xan has no Fi partner, you need to steal the pods set for the race with DE or BS ships.

Quote:
* whats with the races characterisitics ? imo they get abonded too much
That's kind of the point. It's a mixed ability set. Each race has the best ac/dc in its area of speciality but that's as far as I wanted to go. The race names are only there because that's how the games coded. You might aswell call them race 1-4 in terms of ships.

Quote:
that beeing said this set has some good ideas anyhow - i just feel it should be closer to the original races ideas (give ter mainly heavy harmoured kill ships - cath mainly emp ships etc...)
i dont mind bringing in an emp ship or steal ship for said races, but this feels like just 4x etd

interesting set that needs a lot of work still - imho
Apart from trawling through to match up to the original spreadsheet and a few ac/dc tweaks I won't be making any wholesale changes. This is a set that requires people to think about what they are doing and use all the abilities from races to achieve it. The targeting is sound and the calcs look good so far.
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Unread 18 Jul 2017, 06:58   #40
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

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Originally Posted by Shhhhhhh View Post
Could you add fi pods for Ter, De pods for cath, Cr pods for xan and bs pods for ziks?
Atm those race have to steal pods if they want to use that fleet which means a big advantage to those guys that know ahead of time someone will crash a lot of pods on them.
While for others its risky to go for those fleets. Giving a big advantage to cheaters.
Shortly, no. The point is to steal the 3rd class. It is something has worked in the past and will work in this set too. It's just everyone can do it and not only zik/etd. No teamup stands out when paired up and all classes are viable solo. The need to cheat for pods is lessened by this fact.
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Unread 18 Jul 2017, 07:58   #41
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

Ok ok ok.... I admit it....

Looked over these stats alot (while at work) and I've gotta say, the more I do... the more I like them. Apologies to Kai.

Might be odd, but its the ingal defence options I like
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Unread 18 Jul 2017, 08:07   #42
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Shortly, no. The point is to steal the 3rd class. It is something has worked in the past and will work in this set too. It's just everyone can do it and not only zik/etd. No teamup stands out when paired up and all classes are viable solo. The need to cheat for pods is lessened by this fact.
The need to cheat for pods is still there tho, for an ally who has no problem with this going say Terran/Zik BS is an option. For a non cheating ally the risk of not stealing bs pods is too great and they cant risk it.
While I understand the joy of hunting and finally stealing some pods you want, i think you underestimate the advantage you give to the cheating allies/players.
Even if none of those attack classes that need pod steals are far stronger than others, being able to add the race to your ally strat still helps since it gives access to different def ships without adding another attacking class to your ally.
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Unread 18 Jul 2017, 08:34   #43
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

No attack partner for terran is bs. That need to be fixed. I'm also not a big fan of turning every races into ETd basically, but if you are going to do it, do it progressively. This just seems like too much at once...

Cath with stealth, steal and kill ships and 40% salvage bonus? No way. I'd much rather have each races have a maximum of 1 stealth/1 stealth/1 emp /1 norm ship depending of their race.

IE: Terr full norm ship + 1 of each
Cath: Full emp ship + 1 of each...

etc

This change is too big for something completely new.
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Unread 18 Jul 2017, 12:16   #44
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

Looking at those stats gives me a headache

Hard to say anything else at this moment, i'll check them out when at home. Maybe finalized stats with race characteristics will help give a better view.
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Unread 18 Jul 2017, 13:55   #45
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

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Originally Posted by ChroNOS View Post
No attack partner for terran is bs. That need to be fixed.
Zik.

Quote:
I'm also not a big fan of turning every races into ETd basically, but if you are going to do it, do it progressively. This just seems like too much at once...
That's your personal opinion and although it's valid the game is not based around it. These are the stats I created and submit. We are in the process of finalising or tweaking them now. Apart from that they will stay as they are. If you have any suggestion about tweaks I'm open to all.

Quote:
Cath with stealth, steal and kill ships and 40% salvage bonus? No way. I'd much rather have each races have a maximum of 1 stealth/1 stealth/1 emp /1 norm ship depending of their race.

IE: Terr full norm ship + 1 of each
Cath: Full emp ship + 1 of each...

etc
Earlier in this thread Jintao asked for race characteristic change suggestion. Feel free to give them.

Quote:
This change is too big for something completely new.
If you don't try it you won't know if you like it. People said removing cloak was too much. It ended up a good round and a fun change.
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Unread 18 Jul 2017, 13:57   #46
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

I like that this set forces people outside their comfort zone and may give people some new experiences in the game.

I haven't run any calcs, but based off a quick view Zik looks very powerful and Cat look completely unviable.
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Unread 18 Jul 2017, 13:59   #47
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shhhhhhh View Post
The need to cheat for pods is still there tho, for an ally who has no problem with this going say Terran/Zik BS is an option. For a non cheating ally the risk of not stealing bs pods is too great and they cant risk it.
While I understand the joy of hunting and finally stealing some pods you want, i think you underestimate the advantage you give to the cheating allies/players.
Even if none of those attack classes that need pod steals are far stronger than others, being able to add the race to your ally strat still helps since it gives access to different def ships without adding another attacking class to your ally.
I think it comes down to how pessimistic you are about the playerbase. I can see both sides. I have faith that I have made the stats so no teamup wipes out all comers. This alone makes the need to teamup cross race less anyway.

It might just be that alliances can't have a 'BS only' strat. That all classes and races have equal benefits. This wouldn't be a bad thing for the fun of the round imo.
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Unread 18 Jul 2017, 14:00   #48
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukey View Post
I like that this set forces people outside their comfort zone and may give people some new experiences in the game.

I haven't run any calcs, but based off a quick view Zik looks very powerful and Cat look completely unviable.
Yeah I think the more you look at stuff the more you see. I'm glad you got the point of the set. To make people try new stuff. We might have some closet zik masters who have only ever played Xan.
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Unread 18 Jul 2017, 19:59   #49
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

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We're running calcs atm to check for weird shit Emp is set around 115-120%. With no emp race there is no need to push it so high for lack of kill ships.
I do not think that is the reason emp needs to be higher. Not for lack of kill ships, it needs to be higher simply to make emp a viable option. You have cloaked low init ships that have a higher cost eff then emp ships. That just makes 0 sense in terms of balancing the overall ships.

My concern isn't that the stats are different or "4 ETD races", my concern is the undeniable fact that all the best ships are purely defensive in nature. This set is seems almost intended for fort gals who have defensive planets that can pl def to them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Yeah I think the more you look at stuff the more you see. I'm glad you got the point of the set. To make people try new stuff. We might have some closet zik masters who have only ever played Xan.
Do you "force" people to try new stuff or do you just get them to take a round off, because my guess is the latter. If you want to "force" people to do something different, maybe make it fun, not a boring defensive set where not even a team up can get through without easy defense, unless you get "lucky" by stealing the pods you need to have a decent attack fleet.
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Unread 18 Jul 2017, 21:09   #50
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

I am taking the round off 😂
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