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View Poll Results: Should Round 66 be Random?
Yes - Full Random Galaxies 33 75.00%
No - Stick with the Buddy Pack System 8 18.18%
We like "write-in" ballots and good ideas, so please vote here and elaborate! 3 6.82%
Voters: 44. You may not vote on this poll

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Unread 24 Feb 2016, 07:03   #1
Cochese
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r66 - The Random One

It's not exactly scientific, but it's something.

Change is good, I'm tired of eating chicken.

*This is by no means official, but hey let's get the ball rolling.

**I'm an idiot, by the way.
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Unread 24 Feb 2016, 09:03   #2
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Re: r66 - The Random One

I didn't even know we could do polls. Neat.

Anyway, sure, why not. Give it a go for a round.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 24 Feb 2016, 09:11   #3
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Re: r66 - The Random One

Is this something that would 'actually' improve the game or is it something that would ultimately be detrimental.

I understand those that who are against BPs, those who hope to get big players in their galaxy to help them get a better rank, who don't like that there can be groups of players who when together are better than 90% of the playerbase but please think of the other side of the coin.

Would some of these people play if they couldn't be together, how abusable is the exile system still? We have seen in the past from the shaz/dav etc gal that it's more than possible to sit idle for 500 ticks exiling into a gal together and then suddenly burst up the ranks. Gals like this would ultimately dominate in a full random round with no organised competitors.

As someone who has gone random and who has forted I can safely say that overall forting is a vastly more enjoyable experience. Having a few players you can rely on for defence makes a massive difference when you get incs, hoping on randoms can make people give up quickly if you get the short end of the stick in shuffle.

Also another point is would this lead to very mixed alliance galaxies? In the current environment of a small number of galaxies and alliances being extremely pissy over naps would we end up with no galaxies available to raid or galaxies that are only half raidable causing easy coverage and more disagreements on a galaxy level due to do not defend rules by alliances.

Food for thought before you vote
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Unread 24 Feb 2016, 09:14   #4
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Re: r66 - The Random One

You fool, I already voted! HA!
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 24 Feb 2016, 09:15   #5
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Re: r66 - The Random One

I don't know what alliance Cochese is in btw but in my honest opinion this thread has the feel of 'ult forts and we need another way to curb their ability to play better than us'
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Unread 24 Feb 2016, 10:44   #6
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Re: r66 - The Random One

According to Bram's data from this round, Ultores does not have a much bigger part of their members in forts than other alliances, and the bigger the forts, the smaller the difference.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 24 Feb 2016, 10:52   #7
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Re: r66 - The Random One

Aye but there is a big difference between an Ult fort and a CT fort no?
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Unread 24 Feb 2016, 12:05   #8
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Re: r66 - The Random One

Ah, I see. Fair point.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 24 Feb 2016, 14:46   #9
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Re: r66 - The Random One

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
According to Bram's data from this round, Ultores does not have a much bigger part of their members in forts than other alliances, and the bigger the forts, the smaller the difference.
I think that the leading alliances are dictating how lesser alliances runs/has to run.



I like the idea to have BP sizes of 2, and then random mix 2 BPs together, and keep the rest like it is today.
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Unread 24 Feb 2016, 16:17   #10
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Re: r66 - The Random One

I have voted for random galaxies but I believe that the exiling system must also be examined to avoid the "usual culprits" forming their "uber-galaxies" and "everyone else" being stuck with inactive players.
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Unread 24 Feb 2016, 16:32   #11
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Re: r66 - The Random One

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Originally Posted by ArcChas View Post
I have voted for random galaxies but I believe that the exiling system must also be examined to avoid the "usual culprits" forming their "uber-galaxies" and "everyone else" being stuck with inactive players.
Well has there realy been any "uber" galaxies the last few rounds?
And exiling 3 + whatevertheyareexilingatm sounds very costly?
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Unread 24 Feb 2016, 17:26   #12
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Re: r66 - The Random One

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
I don't know what alliance Cochese is in btw but in my honest opinion this thread has the feel of 'ult forts and we need another way to curb their ability to play better than us'

In-game, Heroes...though totally inactive alliance-wise. I could care less about Ult or anyone else for that matter, I hate everyone equally.

Simply an off-shoot from the other thread I linked in the OP after re-reading it and noticing a fair few replies were basically "I wouldn't mind a random round".

Whiz bang, I threw this poll up for fun.
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Unread 24 Feb 2016, 17:37   #13
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Re: r66 - The Random One

I choose the write in option but I am fine with the random option.

I like the idea of 2 BP's and 2 of them coming together to form a galaxy. Means your with at least 1 other person that you can count on to cover you when you are asleep or give you last minute ships in galaxy.

If its a random round I am fine with that but what I would like from the admins is a better system for gals to be disbanded or helping "unlucky" planets that end up in dead gals and the exile cost is very expensive.

Maybe have the admins be proactive for the first X ticks (250 maybe) in disbanding/removing galaxies that are truly dead and forcing active planets to exile and inactive planets to end up in c200. I dont know how feasible that is but I know from previous rounds that some people left the game due to being in crappy gals and the exiling was just not working. Note I am talking about 5 people in the last 14 rounds so its not a huge number as far as I know.
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Unread 24 Feb 2016, 19:42   #14
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Re: r66 - The Random One

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcChas
I have voted for random galaxies but I believe that the exiling system must also be examined to avoid the "usual culprits" forming their "uber-galaxies" and "everyone else" being stuck with inactive players.
Why are you so hell bent on stopping people from playing together with their friends? What if I don't want to play with some random guy from p3ng/nd? Why should I be forced to play with them instead of my friends?
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Unread 24 Feb 2016, 21:12   #15
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Re: r66 - The Random One

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Originally Posted by eksero View Post
Why are you so hell bent on stopping people from playing together with their friends? What if I don't want to play with some random guy from p3ng/nd? Why should I be forced to play with them instead of my friends?
Its an effort to get new players to settle in the game.
If we keep having private gals instead of the current system OR random gals, in the end it will only be you and your friends left

If we have 2-man BPs, atleast you wont be alone.
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Unread 24 Feb 2016, 21:13   #16
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Re: r66 - The Random One

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Originally Posted by RexDrax View Post
I choose the write in option but I am fine with the random option.

I like the idea of 2 BP's and 2 of them coming together to form a galaxy. Means your with at least 1 other person that you can count on to cover you when you are asleep or give you last minute ships in galaxy.

If its a random round I am fine with that but what I would like from the admins is a better system for gals to be disbanded or helping "unlucky" planets that end up in dead gals and the exile cost is very expensive.

Maybe have the admins be proactive for the first X ticks (250 maybe) in disbanding/removing galaxies that are truly dead and forcing active planets to exile and inactive planets to end up in c200. I dont know how feasible that is but I know from previous rounds that some people left the game due to being in crappy gals and the exiling was just not working. Note I am talking about 5 people in the last 14 rounds so its not a huge number as far as I know.
The issue is that everybody expects to be in a top10, or top20 gal, with 10 planets per gal that means 2/3 of the current univers will end in a "crap gal", too bad.
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Unread 24 Feb 2016, 21:18   #17
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Re: r66 - The Random One

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
The issue is that everybody expects to be in a top10, or top20 gal, with 10 planets per gal that means 2/3 of the current univers will end in a "crap gal", too bad.
I dont define crap galaxies in this case as a galaxy that is not topXX in the rankings. I define crap galaxy as any galaxy where 1/3 of the planets are inactive or a galaxy that has less than 6 planets if the average galaxy size is 8 planets, or something along those lines. Not everyone can end up in a top10/20 galaxy and to assume that is not feasible.
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Unread 24 Feb 2016, 21:20   #18
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Re: r66 - The Random One

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Originally Posted by RexDrax View Post
I dont define crap galaxies in this case as a galaxy that is not topXX in the rankings. I define crap galaxy as any galaxy where 1/3 of the planets are inactive or a galaxy that has less than 6 planets if the average galaxy size is 8 planets, or something along those lines. Not everyone can end up in a top10/20 galaxy and to assume that is not feasible.
Well id rather see you define what "active" means.
If that means sending fleets daily, or logging in daily, then im sure there will be very few inactive gals around.
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Unread 24 Feb 2016, 23:58   #19
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Re: r66 - The Random One

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Originally Posted by eksero View Post
Why are you so hell bent on stopping people from playing together with their friends? What if I don't want to play with some random guy from p3ng/nd? Why should I be forced to play with them instead of my friends?
I'm not hell bent on that at all (see my posts on tag sizes) but I *am* keen on everyone playing on a level field. Having several "good" players exiling around until they land with their mates is bad for the remaining galaxies and bad for the game.
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 00:00   #20
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Re: r66 - The Random One

For gods sake PA do something radical, something that brings about change instead of round after round of dwindling playerbase.
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 00:34   #21
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Re: r66 - The Random One

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Originally Posted by eksero View Post
Why are you so hell bent on stopping people from playing together with their friends? What if I don't want to play with some random guy from p3ng/nd? Why should I be forced to play with them instead of my friends?
They aren't. There is a very good chance that everyone who has posted in this thread has played in a bp and likes the system, they simply want a change from time to time to keep things interesting. Most realise that the PA crew is not going to do something big and new so this is one of relatively few things they can do easily that will make a big impact. I doubt there would be opposition to reverting to bps after a short change.
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 00:53   #22
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Re: r66 - The Random One

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Originally Posted by eksero View Post
Why are you so hell bent on stopping people from playing together with their friends? What if I don't want to play with some random guy from p3ng/nd? Why should I be forced to play with them instead of my friends?
What part of random galaxies prevents you from playing with them?
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 01:00   #23
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Re: r66 - The Random One

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Originally Posted by eksero View Post
Why are you so hell bent on stopping people from playing together with their friends? What if I don't want to play with some random guy from p3ng/nd? Why should I be forced to play with them instead of my friends?
They can play together in alliances. The only reason why people like buddypacks is because of the extra time to send def. Claiming anything else is just silly.
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 01:02   #24
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Re: r66 - The Random One

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Originally Posted by Patrikc
What part of random galaxies prevents you from playing with them?
Obviously the chance of ending up in a galaxy together is slim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
They can play together in alliances. The only reason why people like buddypacks is because of the extra time to send def. Claiming anything else is just silly.
What if I want to play with them both in ally and galaxy?

Why is it silly to want to play with someone I know will be reliable?
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 01:06   #25
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Re: r66 - The Random One

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Originally Posted by eksero View Post
Obviously the chance of ending up in a galaxy together is slim.



What if I want to play with them both in ally and galaxy?

Why is it silly to want to play with someone I know will be reliable?
Well obviously we are trying to look away from what individuals prefer, and trying to look at what "might be good for PA".
Are you disagreeing that having more "mixed" galaxies makes the chance of new players staying bigger?
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 01:08   #26
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Re: r66 - The Random One

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Originally Posted by eksero View Post
What if I want to play with them both in ally and galaxy?

Why is it silly to want to play with someone I know will be reliable?
I want a million dollars. You're not making a strong argument.
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 01:17   #27
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Re: r66 - The Random One

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Originally Posted by eksero View Post
Obviously the chance of ending up in a galaxy together is slim.



What if I want to play with them both in ally and galaxy?

Why is it silly to want to play with someone I know will be reliable?
If it was about reliability you would rely on them sending you def in the hour or 2 hours they have to send def in ally.
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 01:18   #28
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Re: r66 - The Random One

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher
Well obviously we are trying to look away from what individuals prefer, and trying to look at what "might be good for PA".
Are you disagreeing that having more "mixed" galaxies makes the chance of new players staying bigger?
Obviously i'm opposed to something that just wouldn't make the game enjoyable for me. Saving PA does no good to me if I won't have any fun playing it, then I'd rather have a few more rounds of enjoying to play before it's over.
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 01:20   #29
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Re: r66 - The Random One

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
If it was about reliability you would rely on them sending you def in the hour or 2 hours they have to send def in ally.
Eh, not really.

What about relying on them to not die at base during incs?

Or crash their fleets during attacks?
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 02:05   #30
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Re: r66 - The Random One

Your friends being in your alliance but not your galaxy makes them do that?
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 02:21   #31
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Re: r66 - The Random One

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Originally Posted by eksero View Post
Why are you so hell bent on stopping people from playing together with their friends? What if I don't want to play with some random guy from p3ng/nd? Why should I be forced to play with them instead of my friends?
So except eksero that want private gals, so he don't need to abuse the exile system like they got to today. Does anyone have any good reasons for not reducing bp size?
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 02:37   #32
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Re: r66 - The Random One

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Originally Posted by Sandvold View Post
So except eksero that want private gals, so he don't need to abuse the exile system like they got to today. Does anyone have any good reasons for not reducing bp size?
Obviously the PA crew not reading this thread is a issue.
And unless people agree that 2 + 2 bps + randoms is the way to go this will not resolve into anything.

Another major issue is that we got no clue what so ever a change like this will do to the amount of BPs vs amount of randoms a change to BP will result in. Ive allready asked for this number from last round, but someone else should bug Appoco with this aswell.
Also i think this expremient should be done at the same time as we have a 100% free round.
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 06:22   #33
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Re: r66 - The Random One

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Originally Posted by Patrikc
Your friends being in your alliance but not your galaxy makes them do that?
Come on, we both know you are not this stupid pal
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 06:22   #34
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Re: r66 - The Random One

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandvold
So except eksero that want private gals, so he don't need to abuse the exile system like they got to today. Does anyone have any good reasons for not reducing bp size?
What am I abusing and how?
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 07:03   #35
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Re: r66 - The Random One

You talk about evening the playing field but how does taking the ability to make a competitive galaxy do this?

There is a reasonable chance that in the 2+2 system that 4 decent players will be put together, if for example every Ult player was made to be in a 2 man bp there would be a few 4-5 man ult gals still. This would give the exiles a target to aim for. The problem is that galaxies which could rival these forts are no longer around because this system chucked together 2 great p3n players and 2 200 rank HRs meaning the round of the 2 great players is essentially over before it starts as they are relying purely on alliance cover and some randoms/lesser players whose activity/response can't be guaranteed.

What will these great players do when handicapped so badly? Quit the round at tick 200? Play half active and damage their alliances overall 'power'?

Yes in your liberal minds everyone is equal and full random or hold a hand 2 man bps is the answer but in reality putting square pegs in round holes does vastly more damage than good.

60% of the universe is mediocre at the game, 20% is useful, 15% is good and 5% is exceptional. Forcing exceptional players with mediocre ones only makes the mediocre ones better if they are interested in improving. Most aren't now and instead you kill the morale of the exceptional players.

How about instead of this stupidity you raise BP limits to make properly competitive galaxies and capped exiles to 3 for the round. If people want to create an environment that makes the game enjoyable and competitive then why should they be stopped because someone else isn't good enough or interested enough to do the same.

Instead of dragging them down to your level how about you get commited and get to theirs
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 10:37   #36
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Re: r66 - The Random One

I voted for a random round, i am tired seeing the same gal theme's every round.

Also with random galaxies veterans might be motivated more to learn the game to the new players, instead of getting them roided by alliance members and exile them.
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 11:00   #37
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Re: r66 - The Random One

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Originally Posted by Joepys View Post
I voted for a random round, i am tired seeing the same gal theme's every round.

Also with random galaxies veterans might be motivated more to learn the game to the new players, instead of getting them roided by alliance members and exile them.
Will these new players step up to the level of the veterans, or will the veterans have to come down to their level and be frustrated for 1150 ticks.

While a short random round could be fun, the exile/galaxy disband system will have to be overhauled so galaxies are not stuck with the litter of the band. Even in our current setup it's a huge pain if you don't end up with 3-4 decent randoms from pt12.

Although the current bp system isn't perfect, at least you know almost 50% of your galaxy will be up to the task.

There is mechanics in this game that force people to play 24/7 if you want to compete. If 2 randoms end up in a gal where 80% does not want to do this, their round is over.

The only thing that will happen is, the galaxies that are lucky to get a decent set of players will run of, while a big group of experienced, active and willing players will be disappointed by the round and end up quitting or playing half-arsed

In a perfect world, where you have 500 somewhat equally active players (not even talking about skill here), random galaxies would be our way forward. This is not the case, and the active community will suffer for it.

Randomness in gaming is a bad thing when it influences your chance of success in comparison to your competition. We already have more then enough of this with the setup we currently have.
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 11:03   #38
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Re: r66 - The Random One

I would love a change for a round.

Forcing people to play random for a round wont make them quit the game.

I d like to see a random round every year or so, just to avoid all rounds being the same.
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 11:20   #39
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Re: r66 - The Random One

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Originally Posted by berten View Post
Will these new players step up to the level of the veterans, or will the veterans have to come down to their level and be frustrated for 1150 ticks.

While a short random round could be fun, the exile/galaxy disband system will have to be overhauled so galaxies are not stuck with the litter of the band. Even in our current setup it's a huge pain if you don't end up with 3-4 decent randoms from pt12.

Although the current bp system isn't perfect, at least you know almost 50% of your galaxy will be up to the task.

There is mechanics in this game that force people to play 24/7 if you want to compete. If 2 randoms end up in a gal where 80% does not want to do this, their round is over.

The only thing that will happen is, the galaxies that are lucky to get a decent set of players will run of, while a big group of experienced, active and willing players will be disappointed by the round and end up quitting or playing half-arsed

In a perfect world, where you have 500 somewhat equally active players (not even talking about skill here), random galaxies would be our way forward. This is not the case, and the active community will suffer for it.

Randomness in gaming is a bad thing when it influences your chance of success in comparison to your competition. We already have more then enough of this with the setup we currently have.
This game is based on random luck.
You dont chose who attacks you, your gal or your alliance.
And yes you can end top10 in a inactive gal, saying you cant is silly.

Working with less active or diffrent players has been a basic of this game since the very beginning. If you cant adapt you cant win.

I would say lets bigger gals would increase the chances of everyone landing in a active gal, but it makes it harder for smaller tags to attack every gal out there
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 12:07   #40
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Re: r66 - The Random One

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
This game is based on random luck.
You dont chose who attacks you, your gal or your alliance.
And yes you can end top10 in a inactive gal, saying you cant is silly.

Working with less active or diffrent players has been a basic of this game since the very beginning. If you cant adapt you cant win.

I would say lets bigger gals would increase the chances of everyone landing in a active gal, but it makes it harder for smaller tags to attack every gal out there

You believe it's based on luck because you are no good at it.

The game is based on skill, activity and tactical/political nous. The more or better you are at these the better you place.

Adding random galaxies just dilutes everyone's ability to play to their potential.

Yeah vets can play with noob's but with the added pressure of only having ally def have these vets got time to teach? Probably not. Do the noobs wanna be taught? Probably not. Will you even be able to get them on irc? Probably not.

Also please find the t10 finishers who played a full or even 2/3rds of a round in an inactive galaxy. Show your proof.

And no 'scan links expire' is not an excuse you can use this time
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 12:11   #41
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Re: r66 - The Random One

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Originally Posted by berten View Post
Will these new players step up to the level of the veterans, or will the veterans have to come down to their level and be frustrated for 1150 ticks.
Neither. This seems a rather odd statement. Do all players in your galaxy have exactly the same activity and ability? I doubt it. We always work around the fact that people are on at different times, have different strategies, are more active, are more willing to send def and give up their roids to save others etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by berten View Post
While a short random round could be fun, the exile/galaxy disband system will have to be overhauled so galaxies are not stuck with the litter of the band. Even in our current setup it's a huge pain if you don't end up with 3-4 decent randoms from pt12.
Yes the exile system would need to be fiddled a bit. It is very restrictive at the moment because of the bp system so could be loosened up a bit if not using the same system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by berten View Post
There is mechanics in this game that force people to play 24/7 if you want to compete. If 2 randoms end up in a gal where 80% does not want to do this, their round is over.
Absolutely true if what you care about is getting #1 gal. But for most that is not their aim in playing pa. I rather think Sandvold proves this is not the case if aiming for personal ranks as his is very much a average galaxy. I personally have been well into the T100 in a bottom 10 galaxy (though this was over thirty rounds ago).

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Originally Posted by berten View Post
The only thing that will happen is, the galaxies that are lucky to get a decent set of players will run of, while a big group of experienced, active and willing players will be disappointed by the round and end up quitting or playing half-arsed
Certainly true that it will be luck of the draw which galaxies run off in the galaxy race. I have my doubts about the rest of the assertion. A great many players go random at the moment and dont end up quitting as a result of it. At the same time there are plenty who are part of a bp and end up quitting or playing half-arsed. Where is your evidence that this will make a big difference?

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Originally Posted by berten View Post
In a perfect world, where you have 500 somewhat equally active players (not even talking about skill here), random galaxies would be our way forward. This is not the case, and the active community will suffer for it.
An assertion that is lacking evidence!

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Originally Posted by berten View Post
Randomness in gaming is a bad thing when it influences your chance of success in comparison to your competition. We already have more then enough of this with the setup we currently have.
So what you are saying is that you prefer unfair competition or an unbalanced playing field to fair and random competition? Since you are concerned about poor players dragging you down while some other good players end up with other good players how about it is not random at all but each player's average rank over their last few rounds is used to provide seeding? Everything could then be nicely evened out! In the long term this could be gamed but could work for a one off.

My preference in this is just for a change. This to me does not have to mean random galaxies, I would equally be happy with slotting together two bps of two, having very small galaxies (one bp of two) or even at a stretch I guess fully private galaxies!
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 12:35   #42
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Re: r66 - The Random One

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
Your friends being in your alliance but not your galaxy makes them do that?
No, your galmates do that because they're not your competent allymates. When you're used to playing with the best players you can find, nothing else will do. You don't need to be a PA aristocrat to know the massive difference between playing in a galaxy that jives vs. one that doesn't. We all like being in galaxies that work. When you have the ability to create galaxies like that, why wouldn't you?

Now, PA has tried for years to stop this from happening. Galaxy and self exiles have been made more expensive. Self-exiles take a random amount of time. The number of galaxy exiles has been sharply limited. The number of late signups has been reduced. None of these things have worked because we've always wanted it both ways. One, the ability to create above-average galaxies while barely coordinating ourselves. Two, to prevent people who coordinate flawlessly from creating of top-tier galaxies.

Gotta pick one, people.
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 13:01   #43
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Re: r66 - The Random One

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Originally Posted by booji View Post
Neither. This seems a rather odd statement. Do all players in your galaxy have exactly the same activity and ability? I doubt it. We always work around the fact that people are on at different times, have different strategies, are more active, are more willing to send def and give up their roids to save others etc.
You don't need to have the same activity, nor do you have to be awake at the same time. What you do need is the will to be online when you are required to be. I've spent countless hours with new players that ended up in my gals, getting them targets, learning them to calc, .... just to have them end up crashing a fleet because they were watching 90210 and wanted to get a look at Brenda's cleavage.

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Originally Posted by booji View Post
Absolutely true if what you care about is getting #1 gal. But for most that is not their aim in playing pa.
But you want to overhaul an existing system where players that do want to play for #1 gal get a disadvantage over the current situation.

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Originally Posted by booji View Post
I rather think Sandvold proves this is not the case if aiming for personal ranks as his is very much a average galaxy. I personally have been well into the T100 in a bottom 10 galaxy (though this was over thirty rounds ago).
Every planet that does not get hit can get a pretty decent ranking: Although I have no data to back me up at this point, Sandvold would probably not hold his current rank/roids/score if he had seen some considerable incomming. (not trying to play down his current rank etc, well played for avoiding those incs)



Quote:
Originally Posted by booji View Post
A great many players go random at the moment and dont end up quitting as a result of it.
But a lot of these players keep exiling until they end up in a galaxy with a bp that is active. It has even been said in this thread, that a lot of these players go random with the idea of trying to form a fort gal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji View Post
At the same time there are plenty who are part of a bp and end up quitting or playing half-arsed. Where is your evidence that this will make a big difference?
Where is your evidence it won't? I'm expressing concerns I have with changing a system to something radically different. It happens that a BP quits, I've seen it happen 2 or 3 times.

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Originally Posted by booji View Post
So what you are saying is that you prefer unfair competition or an unbalanced playing field to fair and random competition? Since you are concerned about poor players dragging you down while some other good players end up with other good players how about it is not random at all but each player's average rank over their last few rounds is used to provide seeding? Everything could then be nicely evened out! In the long term this could be gamed but could work for a one off.
I'm saying everything that involves full randomness to give players a starting position that differs in quality is unfair. (This includes the current system with the 50/50 buddy/random)

A complicated system to spread out planets throughout the universe in a balanced way would be a big improvement, but sadly is not on the table because of time and cost involved.
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 13:33   #44
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Re: r66 - The Random One

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Originally Posted by berten View Post
You don't need to have the same activity.... just to have them end up crashing a fleet because they were watching 90210 and wanted to get a look at Brenda's cleavage.
Well quite... but you have not responded to my response. How does this constitute bringing you down to their level? If you have taught someone for a good amount of time and they now know know the game even if they crash how is that not a good thing. And moreover the vast majority of players whether nubs or vets in this game have crashed, so why should this complaint apply particularly to a new one? If you are in a gal with (plucking out of the air) elviz and he crashes has he suddenly brought you down as you so condescendingly put it?

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Originally Posted by berten View Post
But you want to overhaul an existing system where players that do want to play for #1 gal get a disadvantage over the current situation.
well guilty as charged then. In turn those who are less interested in playing for #1 gal are put at an advantage. This would seem to benefit more people than it disadvantages. Moreover you can still play for number 1 galaxy, you just need to put more effort into it, find ways to motivate your random galmates etc. This does not seem like a bad thing; #1 should require effort!

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Originally Posted by berten View Post
Every planet that does not get hit can get a pretty decent ranking...
True but this is in part a choice you make. You can be in an alliance that plays for ally win and get loads of incs or in one that is aiming for planet ranks. The galaxy being random or bp does not make an immense impact on this choice.

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Originally Posted by berten View Post
But a lot of these players keep exiling until they end up in a galaxy with a bp that is active. It has even been said in this thread, that a lot of these players go random with the idea of trying to form a fort gal.
Instead they will be looking for a galaxy that is reasonably active and everyone will be doing it. This does not seem much different does it?

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Originally Posted by berten View Post
Where is your evidence it won't? I'm expressing concerns I have with changing a system to something radically different.
There is very little evidence at all. The last fully random rounds that were main rounds were I think pre paX. However that said if this is the case what little evidence there is supports the random side; those rounds had lots of players. During the time with bp's there has been a gradual decline! As has been mentioned before on these forums (by I think Mz) pa needs to take a gamble at some point; big changes that may increase player numbers or a continual slow decline to nothing. I dont think that this is a big enough change but at least it is doing something to shake up the status quo.

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Originally Posted by berten View Post
I'm saying everything that involves full randomness to give players a starting position that differs in quality is unfair. (This includes the current system with the 50/50 buddy/random)
So we have democratically unfair to all vs unfair to most but with a tiny aristocracy on top.

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Originally Posted by berten View Post
A complicated system to spread out planets throughout the universe in a balanced way would be a big improvement, but sadly is not on the table because of time and cost involved.
I agree that it is most unlikely to happen (as indeed is fully random based upon the usual willingness of the pa crew to change things). It would take time but I doubt the costs would be high. All the ranking data is there surely they could come up with an average quickly. And then rank them, split them into sections and shuffle. The only time consuming bit would probably be the moving the planets - though I would imagine even that could be automated.
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 13:49   #45
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Re: r66 - The Random One

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
You believe it's based on luck because you are no good at it.

The game is based on skill, activity and tactical/political nous. The more or better you are at these the better you place.

Adding random galaxies just dilutes everyone's ability to play to their potential.

Yeah vets can play with noob's but with the added pressure of only having ally def have these vets got time to teach? Probably not. Do the noobs wanna be taught? Probably not. Will you even be able to get them on irc? Probably not.

Also please find the t10 finishers who played a full or even 2/3rds of a round in an inactive galaxy. Show your proof.

And no 'scan links expire' is not an excuse you can use this time
My gal m8 finished #4 in a gal where only me and him was active R63.
It took well over 100 fleets the last day, and BF backstabbing him the last possibole tick to get him down from 3rd.
This was his 2nd round playing, ever.
And yes, he came into the game wanting to learn it, and yes we were able to get him on IRC.

This game is based on activity, but there is a random luck factor in it.
You cant decide what other planets/alliances does, the only thing you can controll is yourself.
Sometimes you can get roided by 3 alliance at the same time, that is bad luck.
This can happend everytime you have good roids, wich would make it even more bad luck.
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 13:57   #46
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Re: r66 - The Random One

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
My gal m8 finished #4 in a gal where only me and him was active R63.
It took well over 100 fleets the last day, and BF backstabbing him the last possibole tick to get him down from 3rd.
This was his 2nd round playing, ever.
And yes, he came into the game wanting to learn it, and yes we were able to get him on IRC.

This game is based on activity, but there is a random luck factor in it.
You cant decide what other planets/alliances does, the only thing you can controll is yourself.
Sometimes you can get roided by 3 alliance at the same time, that is bad luck.
This can happend everytime you have good roids, wich would make it even more bad luck.
No no no.

Was your gal fully inactive the whole round?

Once again it is not luck it's ability. If you are stupid enough to get too fat and not protect yourself that is bad play on your behalf. If you get hammered by 3 alliances then that is bad politics by your alliance. If the game was pure luck then the same people wouldn't take the top ranks in all areas every round, luck would mean different ppl occupy those slots. But they don't it's same faces round after round. At what point will you stop blaming luck or Lack there of on your inadequacies and actually admit you just aren't good enough
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 14:00   #47
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Re: r66 - The Random One

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Was your gal fully inactive the whole round?
The proposal here is not to get rid of the exile system! No one is likely to be trapped in a fully inactive gal unless they have spent too long trying to get to a perfect Galaxy and the exile cost has suddenly got too high just as they land in a fully inactive one. If that is the case then there is no one to blame but yourself!
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 14:13   #48
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Re: r66 - The Random One

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
No no no.

Was your gal fully inactive the whole round?

Once again it is not luck it's ability. If you are stupid enough to get too fat and not protect yourself that is bad play on your behalf. If you get hammered by 3 alliances then that is bad politics by your alliance. If the game was pure luck then the same people wouldn't take the top ranks in all areas every round, luck would mean different ppl occupy those slots. But they don't it's same faces round after round. At what point will you stop blaming luck or Lack there of on your inadequacies and actually admit you just aren't good enough
Obviously the entire gal was not inactive, but the planet in question did not get there due to gal def.
It was a below average gal.

Once again you cannot decide politics for other alliances, beliving you can avoid getting hit is non-sense.
If that was the case ult wouldve changed politics HC long ago.
Every alliance out there has daily raids, and all tags beside BowS/Ult last round sent out more hostile fleets than friendly fleets
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 14:56   #49
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Re: r66 - The Random One

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Obviously the entire gal was not inactive, but the planet in question did not get there due to gal def.
It was a below average gal.

Once again you cannot decide politics for other alliances, beliving you can avoid getting hit is non-sense.
If that was the case ult wouldve changed politics HC long ago.
Every alliance out there has daily raids, and all tags beside BowS/Ult last round sent out more hostile fleets than friendly fleets
OK so the galaxy situation was different to how you initially made it out.... shock! Just because people didn't defend didn't mean it was bad or that it was a good roiding target. The fact that he survived till the last day without serious incs shows there was better targets out there

Ults situation is purely a combination of jealousy and nothing to lose, the fact they still compete is down to politics tho plain and simple.

As a final point stop putting bows in the same category as ult for anything it's just plain deception. Bows are also rans, like a diluted CT and your presence caused them more incommings and animosity than every other member they had combined.
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 15:32   #50
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Re: r66 - The Random One

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji View Post
Well quite... but you have not responded to my response. How does this constitute bringing you down to their level? If you have taught someone for a good amount of time and they now know know the game even if they crash how is that not a good thing. And moreover the vast majority of players whether nubs or vets in this game have crashed, so why should this complaint apply particularly to a new one? If you are in a gal with (plucking out of the air) elviz and he crashes has he suddenly brought you down as you so condescendingly put it?
What you're missing in your recent posts is that PA is a group activity. In order to bring out the best in yourself, you need to be able to count on your galmates. Waking up in the middle of the night to DC incs is all fine and good, but if only a couple of people show up to send, that effort is wasted. Being careful with your fleets and never crashing them is much less rewarding if your galaxy mates crash right, left and center.



I just thought of something else too. For 30+ rounds, we've been trying to prevent the concentration of skill, activity, availability, dedication, whatever you want to call it, in a handful of galaxies. We've done this because, well, well-oiled fortress galaxies are just so damn strong. The reasoning is, if only we could just make it so that people had a harder time creating virtual private galaxies, we can fix that! But that hasn't worked.

We know people fort because they need to in order to perform well (that's important to us) and because they think it's fun (that's important to them). We try to stop them because we're trying to create a more level playing field, where less well-connected players have a better chance of doing well. But maybe we've been looking at this all wrong. Maybe, instead of trying to make it impossible for people to create forts, we should just make galaxy defense weaker. Increase ingal defense ETA by 1. Let the ekseros and arcs in this world play in galaxies together! If that's how they like to play the game, what do we care. Just as long as the rest of the universe doesn't have to suffer as a result (in comparison), that's fine with me.
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Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 25 Feb 2016 at 15:38.
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