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Unread 4 Dec 2014, 00:10   #1
BloodyButcher
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Stats for r60

So ive put up my stats in the beta.
Suggestions are welcome.
http://beta.planetarion.com/manual.p...n=143962622748

Id rather know what you think of the fleet combos, than silly little none important details.
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Unread 4 Dec 2014, 09:37   #2
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Re: Stats for r60

Pegasus is not an ETD ship.

EOD.

Can we get back to tweaking isil's set now please instead of wasting time on sets we won't use.

Cheers
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Unread 4 Dec 2014, 09:49   #3
BloodyButcher
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Re: Stats for r60

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Pegasus is not an ETD ship.

EOD.

Can we get back to tweaking isil's set now please instead of wasting time on sets we won't use.

Cheers
Looking at last rounds set.
phnx, devastators, dreadnoughts is all initial "ter" ships.
ETD is not a original race of PA, its been borowing ships all rounds.
Thanks for the constructive comments. Lets not forget you were praising this rounds stats
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Unread 4 Dec 2014, 10:11   #4
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Re: Stats for r60

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Pegasus is not an ETD ship.
If this is the kind of response we can expect from you, kindly abstain. Worse than useless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Can we get back to tweaking isil's set now please instead of wasting time on sets we won't use.
One, you and I don't decide what stats ends up being used, but only one of us is pretending they do. (Hint: it's not me.)

Two, stop discouraging people from making stats. We need more people making stats, not less, so that we can avoid the same problem we had for r59.
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Unread 4 Dec 2014, 10:27   #5
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Re: Stats for r60

Mind telling us a bit about the thinking behind the stats; what are you aiming for? and so what should we be aiming for with comments. Often stats sets seem to be blown off course by the criticism on these forums you can at least help that by letting us know what the general idea is behind the stats.

For example pods; why do some races have 2, others 3, and etd 4?
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Unread 4 Dec 2014, 10:36   #6
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Re: Stats for r60

I haven't even looked at the effs, but cath co would be popular with these stats.
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Unread 4 Dec 2014, 10:44   #7
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Re: Stats for r60

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji View Post
Mind telling us a bit about the thinking behind the stats; what are you aiming for? and so what should we be aiming for with comments. Often stats sets seem to be blown off course by the criticism on these forums you can at least help that by letting us know what the general idea is behind the stats.

For example pods; why do some races have 2, others 3, and etd 4?
Its 5 races, 6 diffrent classes.
I dont want "A4 3 pod set".
Also keeping in mind that i want a wider class spread(not necsessery a wider race spread).
Having doable 2 race options for alliances makes it doable to efficient attack most other allies and capping roids.
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Unread 4 Dec 2014, 10:45   #8
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Re: Stats for r60

Cat effs are high but I guess that will be brought down.
My main concern would be my usual hobby horse of xan; xan fi only out inited by xan tzen or by emp. xan fr only out inited by emp and cr/bs. Since the ships are hardly paper ships either...
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Unread 4 Dec 2014, 10:47   #9
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Re: Stats for r60

Ter: War Cruiser is a little out of whack only need like 10k to immune yourself to fr/de inc and use your bs as flak needs a nerf of -10 dmg or change to single targetting

Cat: With a steal ship and their pro covops abilities i believe it will be bad for the game especially at the beginning. swap to normal

Xan: is way to strong across the board

Zik: worst of all races has no roiding potential unless escorted

Etd: 4 roiding classes but can only steal into fr/de?

Other things: corsair/smuggler same ship difference races change one to de/fr or swap targeting around or just make some difference.
Cr is the worst of the roiding classes. suggest zik getting some norm ships that hit BS at init 4 to make it worthwhile picking zik

will add more after some changes are made
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Unread 4 Dec 2014, 10:48   #10
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Re: Stats for r60

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
I haven't even looked at the effs, but cath co would be popular with these stats.
They are suppose to be popular, but FR with two full cloacked FR races, and 4 races with FR i think it will be covreable by decent DCing.
Will top planets be cath heavy? Its likely that EMP planets that can harvest value will do good in these stats.
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Unread 4 Dec 2014, 10:59   #11
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Re: Stats for r60

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_Esper View Post
Ter: War Cruiser is a little out of whack only need like 10k to immune yourself to fr/de inc and use your bs as flak needs a nerf of -10 dmg or change to single targetting

Cat: With a steal ship and their pro covops abilities i believe it will be bad for the game especially at the beginning. swap to normal

Xan: is way to strong across the board

Zik: worst of all races has no roiding potential unless escorted

Etd: 4 roiding classes but can only steal into fr/de?

Other things: corsair/smuggler same ship difference races change one to de/fr or swap targeting around or just make some difference.
Cr is the worst of the roiding classes. suggest zik getting some norm ships that hit BS at init 4 to make it worthwhile picking zik

will add more after some changes are made
Perhaps adding a zero loss zik CR that hits either FR or DE could change CR around a lot.
But i wasnt realy aiming for a stats set wich meant all the races would be playable as solo.
My idea was to make zik a race wich would be playable for what it brought to a team, most of all their anti CO capabilities in allie ETA.

And i dont think xan FI is so strong, "roid classes" FR/DE/CR/BS will have in eta beets/defenders.
If you are saying FR is looking too strong, i would kind of agree with you, but then you are looking at the stats diffrently than isilx.

The warcruiser also have the worst A/C in the stats, for what that counts for(very little obviously). It can be brought even further down though.
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Unread 4 Dec 2014, 11:02   #12
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Re: Stats for r60

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji View Post
Cat effs are high but I guess that will be brought down.
My main concern would be my usual hobby horse of xan; xan fi only out inited by xan tzen or by emp. xan fr only out inited by emp and cr/bs. Since the ships are hardly paper ships either...
My idea was to make xan pods a lot more expensive than other pods, it can be made even more expensive, looking at it now i will prolly do this next.
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Unread 4 Dec 2014, 11:06   #13
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Re: Stats for r60

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Perhaps adding a zero loss zik CR that hits either FR or DE could change CR around a lot.
But i wasnt realy aiming for a stats set wich meant all the races would be playable as solo.
My idea was to make zik a race wich would be playable for what it brought to a team, most of all their anti CO capabilities in allie ETA.

And i dont think xan FI is so strong, "roid classes" FR/DE/CR/BS will have in eta beets/defenders.
If you are saying FR is looking too strong, i would kind of agree with you, but then you are looking at the stats diffrently than isilx.

The warcruiser also have the worst A/C in the stats, for what that counts for(very little obviously). It can be brought even further down though.
A/C means nothing with you flak it with bs as theres no fr/de that shoots cr t1. it will just obliterate fr/de.
zik needs an anti bs at init 4 for cr to be worthwhile, as of now the reliance on cat emp'ing all the fr/de and all the bs is asking a bit much
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Unread 4 Dec 2014, 11:14   #14
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Re: Stats for r60

So zik's best asset is an ally defship? Sounds like a fun race to play
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Unread 4 Dec 2014, 11:15   #15
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Re: Stats for r60

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Originally Posted by Blue_Esper View Post
A/C means nothing with you flak it with bs as theres no fr/de that shoots cr t1. it will just obliterate fr/de.
zik needs an anti bs at init 4 for cr to be worthwhile, as of now the reliance on cat emp'ing all the fr/de and all the bs is asking a bit much
It rather look FR weaker than BS.
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Unread 4 Dec 2014, 11:16   #16
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Re: Stats for r60

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It rather look to make FR weaker than make BS weaker.
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Unread 4 Dec 2014, 11:18   #17
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Re: Stats for r60

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
So zik's best asset is an ally defship? Sounds like a fun race to play
If you only want soloing you will have to only attack cat
Good cath seems like a popular option as you allready said.
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Unread 4 Dec 2014, 11:21   #18
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Re: Stats for r60

Fr wont be playable if bs is as strong as it is, reduce the amount of BS planets by making cr playable by more than cath. then boost some other zik ships cos atm you might get about 20 planets going zik
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Unread 4 Dec 2014, 11:34   #19
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Re: Stats for r60

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Originally Posted by Blue_Esper View Post
Fr wont be playable if bs is as strong as it is, reduce the amount of BS planets by making cr playable by more than cath. then boost some other zik ships cos atm you might get about 20 planets going zik
Xan BS aint strong, so the problem is ter/etd being too strong?
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Unread 4 Dec 2014, 16:39   #20
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Re: Stats for r60

Zik which can steal fi/co with fi/co class.

I would go zik Blue_Esper

You cant really setup zik to be able to roid solo from getgo. Get hold of some co pods, and you can have fun all round.

Make the cutlass t1 CO, as atm all co target same classes t1/t2. Mix it up a bit?

Edit: atm you have 2 ships with t1 CO. 9 with t1 FI. With normal eff. it would be ****ing hard to stop co with these stats.
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Unread 4 Dec 2014, 16:45   #21
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Re: Stats for r60

but they have no worthwhile ships completely reliant on steals and cath escort. in this day and age of hiding base fleet its very hard to cap any ships worthwhile with zik now. only route is covoping really
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Unread 4 Dec 2014, 17:55   #22
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Re: Stats for r60

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Originally Posted by Wishmaster View Post
Zik which can steal fi/co with fi/co class.

I would go zik Blue_Esper

You cant really setup zik to be able to roid solo from getgo. Get hold of some co pods, and you can have fun all round.

Make the cutlass t1 CO, as atm all co target same classes t1/t2. Mix it up a bit?

Edit: atm you have 2 ships with t1 CO. 9 with t1 FI. With normal eff. it would be ****ing hard to stop co with these stats.
ZIK FR can get CO T1, sure
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Unread 4 Dec 2014, 20:00   #23
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Re: Stats for r60

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Can we get back to tweaking isil's set now please instead of wasting time on sets we won't use.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post

One, you and I don't decide what stats ends up being used, but only one of us is pretending they do. (Hint: it's not me.)

Two, stop discouraging people from making stats. We need more people making stats, not less, so that we can avoid the same problem we had for r59.
I think he was just predicting the future based on historical events. Imho things should start by: <Appocomaster> This round <nick> will make the stats.
I guess BB won't like to put effort in this if his set are to be ditched again in the future.
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Unread 4 Dec 2014, 20:09   #24
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Re: Stats for r60

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Originally Posted by Blue_Esper View Post
but they have no worthwhile ships completely reliant on steals and cath escort. in this day and age of hiding base fleet its very hard to cap any ships worthwhile with zik now. only route is covoping really
If the set of stats gets used, I will proove you wrong!
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Unread 4 Dec 2014, 20:41   #25
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Re: Stats for r60

Changes 04.12 20:30:

Zik:
Buffed up the damage on the cutlass.
Changed the T1/T2 priority on thiefs to FI/CO -> CO/FI.

Xan:
Made the xan pods even more expensive.
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Unread 4 Dec 2014, 20:45   #26
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Re: Stats for r60

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Originally Posted by Wishmaster View Post
Zik which can steal fi/co with fi/co class.

I would go zik Blue_Esper

You cant really setup zik to be able to roid solo from getgo. Get hold of some co pods, and you can have fun all round.

Make the cutlass t1 CO, as atm all co target same classes t1/t2. Mix it up a bit?

Edit: atm you have 2 ships with t1 CO. 9 with t1 FI. With normal eff. it would be ****ing hard to stop co with these stats.
I think the dagger with its 76 EMP res gives the whole CO experience a twist, just howering around to absorb the EMP for your cutlass to start stealing can prove to be pretty effective.
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Unread 4 Dec 2014, 21:18   #27
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Re: Stats for r60

As Xan Fi is only stop by PL/ingal def (emp is not stopping) will you, Butcher, be demanding that the current XP setup is changed because otherwise wont we just have a repeat of this one? Which would be weird as you were quite vocal moaning about XP planets in the thread relating to it.

Yet here you are creating a set which again make this style of play the way to go and as far as i can see on here there is no comment or announcement from PA team that the XP setup is going to change
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Unread 5 Dec 2014, 00:12   #28
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Re: Stats for r60

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
I haven't even looked at the effs, but cath co would be popular with these stats.
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Originally Posted by Wishmaster View Post
Zik which can steal fi/co with fi/co class.

I would go zik Blue_Esper

You cant really setup zik to be able to roid solo from getgo. Get hold of some co pods, and you can have fun all round.
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Cat effs are high but I guess that will be brought down.
My main concern would be my usual hobby horse of xan; xan fi only out inited by xan tzen or by emp. xan fr only out inited by emp and cr/bs. Since the ships are hardly paper ships either...
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Fr wont be playable if bs is as strong as it is, reduce the amount of BS planets by making cr playable by more than cath. then boost some other zik ships cos atm you might get about 20 planets going zik
To reply to your post Kaiba.
Everyone got their own opinion on the stats, but i see what you are heading at that xan FI will be strong.
Then again im pretty sure nelito or some other xan lover will come here soon claiming xan FI is unplayable
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Unread 5 Dec 2014, 00:17   #29
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Re: Stats for r60

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
To reply to your post Kaiba.
Everyone got their own opinion on the stats, but i see what you are heading at that xan FI will be strong.
Then again im pretty sure nelito or some other xan lover will come here soon claiming xan FI is unplayable
I'm not saying that other stuff isn't playable I'm specifically asking if with Xan Fi being the same potency in your stats as it is in this current round if you will be making sure of changes to XP
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Unread 5 Dec 2014, 00:21   #30
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Re: Stats for r60

And why will this stats not play out the same way as the tiamata stats?
Well xan is the one nullifying the xan FI, not ter nullifying the xan FI.
All the "meta class" choices got EMP FI def in eta, and the xan EMP resistance aint that high considering all xan FI is ST ships.
Xan FI will ofc be effective if you are able to fake 90% of the targets, wich means you will have to build more dists instead of XP centers.
Its just my view of it, others might look at it diffrently ofc, you being one.
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Unread 5 Dec 2014, 03:39   #31
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Re: Stats for r60

corsair and smuggler are still the same ship
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Unread 5 Dec 2014, 03:54   #32
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Re: Stats for r60

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corsair and smuggler are still the same ship
Is it a problem?
Same init and steal option.
I dont see it likely that changing either to kill will make the stats better.
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Unread 5 Dec 2014, 04:05   #33
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Re: Stats for r60

yes it is a problem.
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Unread 5 Dec 2014, 04:05   #34
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Re: Stats for r60

different init or different targeting order would be a good start
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Unread 5 Dec 2014, 04:09   #35
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Re: Stats for r60

R57 Cutter and Smugler. Whats the difference?
If i do a change like that, we are good?
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Unread 5 Dec 2014, 04:13   #36
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Re: Stats for r60

Round 56 lancer and wraith.
God this seems like a big problem for a lot of stats.
Wonder how we could let these slip through
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Unread 5 Dec 2014, 05:07   #37
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Re: Stats for r60

I'm not seeing a problem with the Corsair/Smuggler having same init...
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Unread 5 Dec 2014, 06:08   #38
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Re: Stats for r60

the difference being that A: not steal classes and B: not in an attack fleet
your stats are doubling up on the same ship from two different races in the same attacking fleet

also r57 had different inits...
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Unread 5 Dec 2014, 06:22   #39
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Re: Stats for r60

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Originally Posted by Blue_Esper View Post
the difference being that A: not steal classes and B: not in an attack fleet
your stats are doubling up on the same ship from two different races in the same attacking fleet

also r57 had different inits...
Zik dont have CO pods? The same attack fleet?
its just what i said, the init is diffrent, but what does it matter? It means nothing in combat in this case?
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Unread 5 Dec 2014, 07:47   #40
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Re: Stats for r60

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
And why will this stats not play out the same way as the tiamata stats?
Well xan is the one nullifying the xan FI, not ter nullifying the xan FI.
All the "meta class" choices got EMP FI def in eta, and the xan EMP resistance aint that high considering all xan FI is ST ships.
Xan FI will ofc be effective if you are able to fake 90% of the targets, wich means you will have to build more dists instead of XP centers.
Its just my view of it, others might look at it diffrently ofc, you being one.
Once again you miss the point, an all xan alliance can do gain off every other race very easily and do exactly what they did last round because there is no same or earlier init ship to stop them.

Just cos they can't attack other Xans doesn't solve this blatant issue
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Unread 5 Dec 2014, 08:00   #41
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Re: Stats for r60

So the solution is to make xan unplayable?
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Unread 5 Dec 2014, 08:01   #42
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Re: Stats for r60

I don't think these stats are too bad, but I'm worried about them from a "how the universe is going to shape up" kind of way.

When you have so many races with viable fi/co class roidships I can almost guarantee you that alliances are going to choose an fico strategy whether they want to or not. Some of the other classes (BS f.ex) might look good on paper, but when it comes down to it alliance HCs will demand their members focus on fico to help as allydef and gradually the round will become fico-centric.

I'm not really too worried about fi class fleets, my bigger worry is co class and I fear that this round could easily end up like my r56 stats-set round did.
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Unread 5 Dec 2014, 10:24   #43
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Re: Stats for r60

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Imho things should start by: <Appocomaster> This round <nick> will make the stats.
No, definitely not. Things should end with Appoco saying "We will use the stats made by <nick> this round". If you have to pick a stats maker beforehand, there's no telling what kind of stats might emerge. The best stats maker could **** up and create a monstrosity. Let people make stats first, then set that is best, not the stats maker that's "best".
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Unread 5 Dec 2014, 10:53   #44
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Re: Stats for r60

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
I don't think these stats are too bad, but I'm worried about them from a "how the universe is going to shape up" kind of way.

When you have so many races with viable fi/co class roidships I can almost guarantee you that alliances are going to choose an fico strategy whether they want to or not. Some of the other classes (BS f.ex) might look good on paper, but when it comes down to it alliance HCs will demand their members focus on fico to help as allydef and gradually the round will become fico-centric.

I'm not really too worried about fi class fleets, my bigger worry is co class and I fear that this round could easily end up like my r56 stats-set round did.
Well R56 was a round that was decided by politics.
I would hardly use the stats as an excuse why the top10 was so cath heavy.
But looking back it from my point of view, two alliances went for full CO, that was FAnG and Faceless, both their strats failed misreably for one reason.
They kept attacking a tag that went CR for basicly the whole round, wich meant their fleet combo was not very good vs this certain tag.
Spores tactic was that some was to go for cath, because their EMP would be crucial in def, and the rest was to go for the FR combo.
Ofc CO had a lot easier landing the alliances they were fighting/roiding, so they ended higher up in the ranking.

Now certain HCs realy dont want to go for a FI/CO strats because it can often be very difficult to defend With, and they would rather go for the slow and steady approach With Capital hulls or frigates/destroyers.
The original of my stats were R51, http://beta.planetarion.com/history/...?id=4&round=51 .
It was only two alliances going for the full CO choice, that was ODDR and MegaRock.
FAnG/ND(?) were CR/BS heavy iirc, CT DE iirc, and TGV/Apprime were FR heavy iirc.
The reason why i decided to build on those rounds stats was because i enjoyed playing CO as a "lesser" tag, and because the race spread was pretty awesome, and the round wasnt decided on shitty stats.
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Unread 5 Dec 2014, 18:28   #45
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Re: Stats for r60

Here is a sketch of a set. My first attempt to make something like that. Not based on any particular round.

http://tinyurl.com/stat60

The idea was to not use many MT ships. Each race gained a third pod (Ter gained a Res pod instead). The counterbalance for that freedom was to turn a bit hard to solo with all possible classes.
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Unread 5 Dec 2014, 21:55   #46
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Re: Stats for r60

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
I think the dagger with its 76 EMP res gives the whole CO experience a twist, just howering around to absorb the EMP for your cutlass to start stealing can prove to be pretty effective.
Until you steal any other type of fighter and EMP cuts right through it...
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Unread 6 Dec 2014, 00:36   #47
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Re: Stats for r60

So i got a funny suggestion on IRC wich i kind of like.
ill add a resources stealer within roid class on zik CR instead for a out of roid class SK
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Unread 6 Dec 2014, 06:56   #48
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Re: Stats for r60

dont think this set is a bad one

However i fail to see how CR is a viable option (for alliances)
same goes for DE (which isnt as bad as CR, but sill wont be used imo)

Maybe you can help this case with adding a kill ship for ZIK CR (pirate at init7 ?)
and at the same time add DE as a 3rd attack class for ZIK

meanwhile id remove the BS pods from xan, as 3 pod classes will overpower xan faking soooo much

just my 2 cents

alternatively: if u wanna keep 3 pods on xan, switch BS to CR (on xan) and scratch the pirate change suggested above
resulting in makin cr viable for alliances, while BS tactics shouldnt be buffed too much (ter/etd combo dont need xan BS (in attack))
can still add the DE fleet for ziks in that alt. scenario
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Unread 6 Dec 2014, 08:12   #49
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Re: Stats for r60

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dont think this set is a bad one

However i fail to see how CR is a viable option (for alliances)
same goes for DE (which isnt as bad as CR, but sill wont be used imo)

Maybe you can help this case with adding a kill ship for ZIK CR (pirate at init7 ?)
and at the same time add DE as a 3rd attack class for ZIK

meanwhile id remove the BS pods from xan, as 3 pod classes will overpower xan faking soooo much

just my 2 cents

alternatively: if u wanna keep 3 pods on xan, switch BS to CR (on xan) and scratch the pirate change suggested above
resulting in makin cr viable for alliances, while BS tactics shouldnt be buffed too much (ter/etd combo dont need xan BS (in attack))
can still add the DE fleet for ziks in that alt. scenario
There is not synergy between CR/BS?
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Unread 6 Dec 2014, 10:40   #50
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Re: Stats for r60

Targetting in general is pretty boring. All classes fire at the other ship in their metaclass plus all adjacent metaclasses. I would like to have either Fr or De be not the class-that-shoots-at-everything. Don't be too afraid to stray a little from the beaten path.

Going to assume Effs are unfinished.

With 6 classes, having 13 pods makes no sense. Make it 12 (M0RPH3US is right, remove Xan Bs), and turn Etd Fr into Fi.


Ter Bs looks a bit on the strong side and there's almost no Cr-based anti-Bs. Make the Man O War one of Zik's 2 kill ships. Give it init 6 to foster cooperation between Etd and Ter Bs. 1 change solves no less than 4 issues.

A problem with Co in general is that all ships either hug or steal, making its inits entirely inconsequential.

The Guardian is an interesting idea, but with Cr being as well rounded as it is, stealing Cr with the Guardian would actually annoy me as a Cat player, because it upsets my fleet balance and gets me nothing in return.

I would like a race other than Xan to have the main anti-Fi ship (Ter's Torpedo?). There might need to be a second non-EMP ship that beats its init, too, in Fr or De class.

Xan Fr is unstoppable. Needs at least 1 ships that fire at it with better init, with equal or better ETA.

Outside of Xan, there's only 1 T1 anti-De ship.

Zik is entirely underpowered. Needs 2 kill ships with great inits and less stealing into classes it doesn't want to build (Fi and Bs, plus De to an extent). The Cr roiding fleet depends entirely on Cat to get anything done. No Cat = no roids. The Fr roiding fleet needs one of those 2 kill ships to even begin to compete: it doesn't even have Cat backup available and Etd Fr is worthless as a teaming partner.

Zik Co: I like it. Steal a handful of Mosquitos and you're in business. Needs Cat backup too, but for a stolen fleet I mind that a lot less than for the 'built-in' ones.

In these stats, where Fr has to hit 5 classes, Etd Fr is missing a target. Is that an oversight or intentional? If the latter, I'd be interested in hearing what it is.

Liking the interaction between the Smuggler and the Fr/De fleets, but it would be better if one of those fleets actually had something to gain from steals. They already fire at everything anyway, so there's not much point. See above. It also would be more suitable to the Zik fleet.

Useless ship list: Interceptor (fires after both Fr fleets) War Cruiser (Dragon in roiding fleet fulfills same task), Torpedo (fires after both De fleets and the Fi fleet, see fix above), Dagger (bad init, off class) and Clipper (stealing Bs is bad).
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.

Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 6 Dec 2014 at 10:46.
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