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Unread 17 Sep 2014, 21:39   #1
Shhhhhhh
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Shipstats set R59 - Shhhhhhh

The shipstats set i made can be found here: http://beta.planetarion.com/manual.pl?page=stats

Basic Design:

Theres some basic designs of all shipstats that the statmaker has in mind when he makes them. Certain characteristics he wants them to have.
Overal these are a matter of taste and somehow add some 'flavor' to the shipstats by unbalancing them in a way.
Ofcourse unbalanced is a word thats often used negatively for shipstats, but what I mean is, everyone having 1 ship with same costs and same dc/ac is balanced, it however isnt fun and doesnt add anything to gameplay.
By giving each race their own characteristics and preferably each ship too. You give the players choices on what to build and what to use.

The following are the basic designs that I want the shipstats to have. Please keep these in mind when commenting on what to change and improve. The goal would be to end up with shipstats that are fun to play, without 1 race or 1 fleetcombo being too strong and where different players come up with different strategies to use.

Basic design of the shipstats:
-No Fighter Roiders , No Battleship Roiders , Each race has Frigate Roiders.
Armor efficiency is around twice as high as damage efficiency, meaning ships dont die as fast. Init is less important.
-Each race , besides zik, has the choice between a race specific roid fleet and a frigate roid fleet. With the race specific one being 'stronger' than the frigates, but giving less chances for team ups.
-The non roider shipclasses, Fighters and Battleships are compensated by being stronger in combat. Meaning Fighters are good ally def and Battleships good gal/self defense

All targetting, costs and efficiencies (including emp) are currently 'Done' the way they are in beta, meaning everything thats in there is intended. So if you see stuff that makes no sense to you please let me know.


Thing i'm especially curious about:
- With all kill/steal efficiencies lower, can EMP still have 'normal' efficiency? On the one hand it makes them more efficient than non emp ships, on the other hand they still have to freeze full fleets to avoid getting hit.
- Do you think fighters and / or battleships are worth building?
- Any race that seems pointless to play?
- The defender ship - useful to def vs Fi fleet catches, or to send along on Co attack? Or totally pointless.

Some reasoning for comments that are bound to be made:

There is no cath co roid fleet because it often ends up unbalancing the race balance in a bad way. I'm hoping the nice Cath CR/BS fleet (which hits all roid classes) means Cath's still have a certain appeal.

Ships shooting at their own class at T1 should be ok , because of the lower kill/steal efficiency. So if a ship fights itself in defense, whoever brings more will win the fight. Added bonus of this is that you can have ships that steal their own class so they steal ships of a class they want.

Interceptor and Ranger have the same T1/ T2 , because the targetting fits better with their attack partner, Interceptor with Xan Co and Ranger with Cath FR.

Current version of shipstats:
I'll keep the shipstats in their current form in the beta server until at least 19-09 22:00. So anyone wanting to use bcalc to calc combo's and have a good look at the shipstats is encouraged to do so, shipstats wont change 5 mins after you did that. I'll use this time to use bcalc to calc combo's myself too.
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Unread 17 Sep 2014, 23:25   #2
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Re: Shipstats set R59 - Shhhhhhh

The fact that you had to ask if emp can have normal effiency makes me not wanna look at the set lol, and super high armor... TT
Mechanics has deemed this set unusable before you started making it... sry for the time you wasted.
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Unread 17 Sep 2014, 23:37   #3
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Re: Shipstats set R59 - Shhhhhhh

Not really looked at them, I like some of the ideas. My first thought is 'woah a stats set where everyone is terran!' which at least makes it very different.

I suspect Plaguuu is being too dismissive and this can work but he is right and you are probably right to be concerned that it will be very difficult to balance normal emp with such a big change in damage vs armour.

Surely the main impact of amazing armour compared to damage will be to create a round in which people are better able to land for xp?
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Unread 17 Sep 2014, 23:39   #4
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Re: Shipstats set R59 - Shhhhhhh

there are so many flaws i wouldn't know where to start, but this put defensive set to awhole new level.
and there are some ships i seriously question the idea behind.
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Unread 18 Sep 2014, 00:01   #5
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Re: Shipstats set R59 - Shhhhhhh

Shhhhhh have a wee think over the weekend and think how can I make these stats more exciting.
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Unread 18 Sep 2014, 02:00   #6
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Re: Shipstats set R59 - Shhhhhhh

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shhhhhhh View Post
By giving each race their own characteristics and preferably each ship too. You give the players choices on what to build and what to use.
To a certain extent, yes. You've also removed two classes (FI, BS) from the equation so removed a fair bit of choice there.

This is also a very blatant nerf to SK's, which need to be un-nerfed or removed entirely. That's a whole other issue so I'll leave it at that.


Quote:
Armor efficiency is around twice as high as damage efficiency, meaning ships dont die as fast. Init is less important.
In every round I've played since r3, where this has been the case, it has ended up being terrible. With the "dumbed down" stats we've had since things like weapon speed and agility were removed, the only key ingredient left is Initiative. If that is less important, you might as well just have everything fire at once...or EMP, Normal, Steal, Roids, SK in that effective order in the stats matrix.

When ships don't die as fast, it's that much more difficult to win wars or defeat an enemy. Roid loss is typically negligible. You still have fleet to go get more. Value loss is the entire point of the game. Removing an enemy's ability to retaliate or go get more roids is the point. Making that more difficult to do leads to a situation where "lol waves" become the norm. It also puts FC'ing someone into limbo, for a couple reasons (paging MZ to this thread/point!). More on that below.


Quote:
So if a ship fights itself in defense, whoever brings more will win the fight.
Dear Christ no, no, no. You clearly don't remember the Sentinel with T3=all. There's also another round with Zik ships stealing each other in a funky way that I can't recall but it was a ****ing mess.

It's not about throwing more ships at a fight...it should be about throwing the right ships at a fight, where even one or two fleets will "win" against a larger force because of things like initiative.

In a shrinking universe, it really can't come down to a numbers game like you're suggesting. It's bad for a whole lot of reasons, the least of which is the biggest group of players wins, by design. Use a scalpel, not an axe. We need more room for interesting game play, not less.

Quote:
Added bonus of this is that you can have ships that steal their own class so they steal ships of a class they want.
I like this idea in principle, but having only played Zik once (terribly I might add) I can't really comment. Surely there's a way to build stats without the aforementioned flaws that would allow them to steal into their preferred roid-classes...

I like the general thought process...and the fact you put time and effort into it, rather than just changing some stuff around from a previous set and calling it "new".

Just adding my own .02 from what "experience" I can offer.
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Unread 18 Sep 2014, 06:53   #7
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Re: Shipstats set R59 - Shhhhhhh

The idea wasn't to 'remove choices' by not having Fi/BS roiders, but to make players chose between some good defensive ships and ships in their roid class.

I was actually worried SK would be too strong to use now, since each race has BS ships to send along with them, they're not a different class as the rest of your fleet. Not sure why you think they're terrible. Considering the strenght of BS ships. You only have to add another shipclass in attack if you want to roid while SKing too.

With the 'dumbed down' shipstats. Because dmg eff are this high, its only init that matters. With dmg eff lower ( more armor) you'll see a bigger impact of a/c and d/c in battles. Normally in battle it doesn't really matter what the a/c d/c is, lower init just wins. With the later init ships now actually surviving a bit to shoot back this changes.


The 'whoever brings more will win the fight' was probably not explained well enough. In earlier rounds when you had ships shooting at themselves at T1. You often got bad battle reports. Especially with stealing. It meant that if you sent 100k of ships A to defend 1mil of ships A. you could still cover the incs. Since they both fired at same time. And the 100k ships would kill or steal close to their own number in ships.
With armor efficiency higher, this doesn't happen as much anymore and 'whoever brings more will win' Which has nothing to do with not having to use the right ship for the job, but just means that unlogical battlereports are hopefully avoided.


I'm also wondering about the 'super defensive' shipstats comment. Could someone explain your reasoning?
Yes theres no holes so you can blindly send at certain races because you know their ships wont target you, but theres also no suicide def ships. Or real easy defenses.
Ofcourse if you send alone on another target, you wont be able to avoid losses if he stays at home, since you most likely cant kill his total fleet, but if the Bcalc looks in your favour , defender wont have his ships there anyway.

About the EMP vs kill/steal efficiency. Like I mentioned , it's clear this is gonna be difficult to balance. I also think you will have some different ideas about this. Some will say , 50% max kill efficiency, but 120-150% emp efficiency, emp way too strong. Everyone will be EMP. But on the other hand EMP needs to be able to freeze full fleets so they can land attacks, no matter what the kill efficiency is. But with calcing combo's vs eachother, it should hopefully give a better idea.
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Unread 18 Sep 2014, 07:25   #8
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Re: Shipstats set R59 - Shhhhhhh

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shhhhhhh View Post
The idea wasn't to 'remove choices' by not having Fi/BS roiders, but to make players chose between some good defensive ships and ships in their roid class.

I was actually worried SK would be too strong to use now, since each race has BS ships to send along with them, they're not a different class as the rest of your fleet. Not sure why you think they're terrible. Considering the strenght of BS ships. You only have to add another shipclass in attack if you want to roid while SKing too.

With the 'dumbed down' shipstats. Because dmg eff are this high, its only init that matters. With dmg eff lower ( more armor) you'll see a bigger impact of a/c and d/c in battles. Normally in battle it doesn't really matter what the a/c d/c is, lower init just wins. With the later init ships now actually surviving a bit to shoot back this changes.


The 'whoever brings more will win the fight' was probably not explained well enough. In earlier rounds when you had ships shooting at themselves at T1. You often got bad battle reports. Especially with stealing. It meant that if you sent 100k of ships A to defend 1mil of ships A. you could still cover the incs. Since they both fired at same time. And the 100k ships would kill or steal close to their own number in ships.
With armor efficiency higher, this doesn't happen as much anymore and 'whoever brings more will win' Which has nothing to do with not having to use the right ship for the job, but just means that unlogical battlereports are hopefully avoided.


I'm also wondering about the 'super defensive' shipstats comment. Could someone explain your reasoning?
Yes theres no holes so you can blindly send at certain races because you know their ships wont target you, but theres also no suicide def ships. Or real easy defenses.
Ofcourse if you send alone on another target, you wont be able to avoid losses if he stays at home, since you most likely cant kill his total fleet, but if the Bcalc looks in your favour , defender wont have his ships there anyway.

About the EMP vs kill/steal efficiency. Like I mentioned , it's clear this is gonna be difficult to balance. I also think you will have some different ideas about this. Some will say , 50% max kill efficiency, but 120-150% emp efficiency, emp way too strong. Everyone will be EMP. But on the other hand EMP needs to be able to freeze full fleets so they can land attacks, no matter what the kill efficiency is. But with calcing combo's vs eachother, it should hopefully give a better idea.
Most of this is just your random theory, which never will work in practise. You are forcing the small community left to do LARGER team ups and physical removed 2 roiding classes, leaving only 4. Whereas these 4 classes are heavily unbalanced on top. And you honestly think that all players will run their ships on a highly loosing battle at their own planet or others for 1177 ticks? Not in this life time. You can't seriously expect this crap played in a real round, as i don't see the point of playing at all then. Only thing missing is roid defence structure that makes you immune to cap. (probably not needed with the overly defensive nature of this set)
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Unread 18 Sep 2014, 08:30   #9
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Re: Shipstats set R59 - Shhhhhhh

I'm gonna give Shhhhhh a week to make the changes nessesary before I go hostile
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Unread 18 Sep 2014, 08:50   #10
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Re: Shipstats set R59 - Shhhhhhh

The fact that you removed fi AND Bs roiding classes just makes me laugh. There will be almost no reason to build BS unless its a solid 100% counter to Cr which it is not.

The other idea about making D/C so much higher than A/C just means that you make it harder for people to land attacks w/o giving up value. Which in turn means that alliances with higher value will lose effectiveness because of salvage on def with higher value fleets losing more value to lower value planets.

As Paisley said i'll give you a week to look it over and come to a decision before I really get into the stats as a detailed analysis. You got a lot of things to look over.
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Unread 18 Sep 2014, 08:58   #11
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Re: Shipstats set R59 - Shhhhhhh

Removing 2 roiding classes allows people to focus their defense on 4 classes. Having half of all roiding fleets be Fr exacerbates the problem. Doubled ship armor is the straw that breaks the camel's back.

These are extremely defensive stats, and in my view that is not desirable in today's PA.
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Unread 18 Sep 2014, 10:30   #12
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Re: Shipstats set R59 - Shhhhhhh

No fi/BS pods: I have no problem with the decision to not have fi pods as fighters can have their own niche as a alliance defence ship. Battleships with no pods I am much less sure about; how many people build ships just for gal defence? They are not really so good that you will want to build them except for attempts at selfcovering.

SKs: Because of the no bs pods I disagree with the assertion that it could make SKs more viable, if no one is building bs then there wont be escorts for the SKs. This problem is made worse by having ONLY bs SKs, no cr. So there is no prospect of sending SKs with someone else's attack fleet, and no prospect for stealing SKs into an attack fleet. If you really want to make SKs viable put SKs in attack fleets, people will moan but they can allways build structure defense.

Fr pods: I really dont like this decision to have everyone with fr pods, along with no bs or fi pods this really encourages forting, something made worse by having fr target de and de target fr which is not always the case.

High armour: unlike everyone else I am not against this in principle. I think it could work very well if PA were a new game in which the norms were yet to be set; it would encourage people to land more attacks where they lose some value so help xp. But in the game as it is there is a norm that unless you are hunting for xp and big on mil centres you don't even launch unless you can get through your target without much loss. The result then is that you are really encouraging big teamups or making emp even more essential.

Pods wtf: Zik only have 1 pod (fr) I know they can steal but this seems a bit little. And there is only 1 type of cr/bs pods; cat. This makes me think there will really be no cr bs at all with this stats set. There are only three cr class ships; the two cat ones and the Marauder. Since cats are valuable as teamup partners (and would be even more so in this defensive round) I really cant see any cat building a fleet that is useless for teamups and the only high eta pod fleet. With only marauders as a potential teamup and probably very few of them, and so much fr around would an emp only attack fleet ever land? You might say that both zik and etd can steal cr but with only three ships to steal and few partners is it really worth bothering?
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Last edited by booji; 18 Sep 2014 at 12:01.
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Unread 18 Sep 2014, 18:52   #13
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Re: Shipstats set R59 - Shhhhhhh

Maybe I've wanted to do it a bit too extreme with both no Fi and BS pods.
I personally liked the BS - SK idea, but if the people that actually use SKs dont like it, its probably a bad idea.

Since it looks like people don't consider the shipstats near enough done to calc with them, I'll change some things now. Sorry if it messes anyone up that has just been calcing.

Changes:
Warfrigate init 8 to init 5. Dmg increased
All Terran DE - Dmg lowered.

Thief (FR stealing FR) Removed - FR fortress vulnerable to FR now.
Zik BS Pod added
ETD Basilisk changed from BS Structure Killer to BS Pod

Terran DE could land on anything, while Terran FR only could on Cath. Now at least Terran FR has some good ship.

With Cath as only roiding CR/BS fleet, it messed things up a bit, meant you could kinda ignore anti CR/BS. With the 2 BS roiders added this isnt true anymore.

'Defensive stats' wise I still dont agree tho. At least not the conclusion of the higher armor part. Higher armor imo means it takes more ships to kill enough of attacker to stop him from landing. Yes almost all the roid fleets target eachother , theres no easy gaps, but even equal value fleets can already land on eachother. There's something weird with the Bcalc so i can't post saved Bcalcs, but try a few battles.

But FR open to FR and 5th roid class added back are changes that make the stats less defensive.
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Unread 19 Sep 2014, 18:04   #14
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Re: Shipstats set R59 - Shhhhhhh

High armor sux, topvalue salvage formula etc
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Unread 19 Sep 2014, 18:33   #15
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Re: Shipstats set R59 - Shhhhhhh

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shhhhhhh View Post
Higher armor imo means it takes more ships to kill enough of attacker to stop him from landing.
.
It does not matter what your opinion is on the subject. It is completely opposite! It requires a whole lot less to stop the attacker from landing.
Edit: Or making him want to launch in the first place.
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