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Unread 25 Nov 2012, 13:00   #1
Mzyxptlk
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mz' R50 Stats

Good afternoon ladies and gentlemen,

Last weekend I suddenly found myself with an idle afternoon and before I knew it I was knee deep in writing a set of ship stats, something I haven't done in almost 7 years.

Needless to say, once started, I felt I needed to finish them. Today, I present you: stats. Please note that although Appoco gave me permission to upload my stats to the beta server, that doesn't mean he's agreed to use them for round 50, nor that I've formally offered them up.

My design criteria were as follows:
- No 0 loss. Hated it last round.
- Semi-MT. Only a few T2s for every race. Ended up having to make only 1 exception to my default of 2: one for each roiding fleet.
- Stealable tertiary roiding fleet for Zik or Etd (ended up as Etd). Just because I thought it would be fun.
- NO 0 LOSS! Seriously!
- Wider spread of costs. Last round, a Bs was only 4-7 times as expensive as a Fi. That used to be 30 times.
- Plenty of solo opportunities.

I'm pretty happy with the targetting, I don't expect I'll be making more than minor changes to them, if that. Effs are totally up for grabs though. I've made a first attempt at them, but since I only just added them to the beta server, I haven't yet had the chance to do calcs.

Comments and criticisms are more than welcome! I'll be idling in #beta for the next couple of weeks, but I'd prefer more substantial comments in this thread, for the sake of keeping the conversation open to everyone who might be interested in it.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.

Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 25 Nov 2012 at 22:22.
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Unread 25 Nov 2012, 13:12   #2
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

targetting/inits look good, a set that can count on my vouch. looking forward to seeing the effs.
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Unread 25 Nov 2012, 13:13   #3
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

Looks really really good.

Main gripe, as I've mentioned, is that the peacekeeper looks pretty useless.

Etd looks pretty strong to me. Have to make sure they don't end up overpowered.
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Unread 25 Nov 2012, 13:17   #4
Mzyxptlk
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

Per request: hug effs. Numbers are in percentages: Beetles hug 135% of their own value in Ter Fi (Harpies).

Etd: Yes, they're pretty strong, especially offensively. Pretty wide open defensively too, though, so I figured it'd balance out.

Peacekeeper: I mostly intended them as a viable alternative to using the Ghost's T2 against Ter Bs. Agreed that it's a bit of a bolt-on. Alternative might be to make Peacekeeper T1 De, the Arrowhead T1 Fi, and the Bolt Thrower T1 Bs. My ultimate goal with the Peacekeeper (which this stats probably don't achieve) is to make pre-Siege Xans wide open to some class. De is probably the best option, here.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.

Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 25 Nov 2012 at 13:58.
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Unread 25 Nov 2012, 13:32   #5
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

Guess I'll use this thread as my to do list too:
- Drake needs ERes nerfed. Peg needs ERes boosted.
- Most SKs are too susceptible to hugs. Ratios of 500%+ not uncommon.
- Xan is quite a bit too lethal.

I'd totally forgotten about Zik stealing classes they can't build. Currently, that makes many stealing ships actively counter-effective. Corsair and Rogue both steal Fr. Thinking about changing the following:
- Corsair to steal T1 Co, T2 Fi
- Rogue to steal T1 Cr
- Pirate to kill T1 Fr, T2 De
- Possibly Galleon to Class De
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.

Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 25 Nov 2012 at 13:56. Reason: No plan survives contact with the enemy. I hate you all.
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Unread 25 Nov 2012, 15:30   #6
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

Probably the best first draft of stats Ive seen around
There are some thigns I dont like tho.

I feel that all the races are abit good vs themselves except terran and too some degree etd.

Cath no chance of stopping cath cr
Xan no chance of stopping xan de(guess thats oki tho)
zik no chance of stopping zik bs

Costs of shipswill surely change I guess(a dragon costing over 10k etc)

2 useless ships(better than most rounds tho :P)
Syren(1 target, bad acdc, wyvern is bettervs xan de, ter de isnt really a threath to terran)
Bolt thrower(cant see any usees for it)

Last edited by Plaguuu; 25 Nov 2012 at 15:48.
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Unread 25 Nov 2012, 15:53   #7
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

No basis to your complaints imo.
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Unread 25 Nov 2012, 17:38   #8
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

This was secretly a third draft already. Don't tell anyone.

I just made a bunch of changes. I'm currently uploading them to the beta server, but here's the Gist I've used to share them before. I made many more changes than I originally expected to need, but people pointed out some genuine problems, so there wasn't really much choice.

Main issues fixed:
- Zik no longer steals Fr
- Zik Co is now viable
- Xans need Siege for anti-De
- Etd nerfed
- Fixed ERes for SKs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Complete lis of changes
TER:
Centaur Init 6 -> 7
Pegasus ERes 79 -> 83
Drake ERes 91 -> 87
Demeter ERes 78 -> 79
Wyvern Init 8 -> 7, Dmg 260 -> 270
Dragon Init 8 -> 9

CAT:
Spider Arm 7 -> 8, Cost 150 -> 170, ERes 62 -> 67
Locust Arm 71 -> 72, Dmg 33 -> 42, ERes 65 -> 73
Termite ERes 1 -> 52

XAN:
Vsharrak Init 4 -> 5, Cost 89 -> 92
Pulsar Init 5 -> 6
Arrowhead complete overhaul (init 4 anti-fi)
Bolt Thrower T1 Fi -> Bs, Arm 15 -> 13, Eres 1 -> 2
Fireblade Dmg 27 -> 25
Ghost Dmg 45 -> 42
Peacekeeper complete overhaul (only Xan anti-De ship)
Vampyre Dmg 36 -> 33
Haunt ERes 0 -> 1

ZIK:
Corsair complete overhaul (low eta anti-Fr)
Cutlass complete overhaul (Fi/Co stealer)
Thief complete overhaul (low eta anti-De)
Clipper Dmg 60 -> 63
Rogue complete overhaul (kills Fr/De for Bs fleet)
Pirate complete overhaul (steals Cr for Bs fleet)
Pillager ERes 77 -> 78
Galleon ERes 23 -> 45

ETD:
Ranger Init 4 -> 5
Broker Init 6 -> 7
Tycoon Arm 144 -> 132, Cost 3200 -> 3000
Liquidator ERes 12 -> 56

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
Cath no chance of stopping cath cr
Improvement of Locust should make Cat better equipped against Cr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
Xan no chance of stopping xan de(guess thats oki tho)
Correct. The best way of stopping Xan De at ally ETA is Thief/Viper. Rogues could be an option ingal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
zik no chance of stopping zik bs
Overhauled Zik. Marauder fires before Pirate now. I might nerf its effs a bit to compensate. We'll see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
Costs of shipswill surely change I guess(a dragon costing over 10k etc)
This is the way it used to be. For an example of what I'm aiming for, see the round 19 stats (take into account that ship costs have decreased by a factor of 10 since then--I'm preserving that change), or the round 21 ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
Syren(1 target, bad acdc, wyvern is bettervs xan de, ter de isnt really a threath to terran)
Open to suggestions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
Bolt thrower(cant see any usees for it)
Overhaul made Bolt Thrower into a viable (though suicidal) anti-Bs ship.



Beta stats should be up to date now.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.

Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 25 Nov 2012 at 18:19.
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Unread 25 Nov 2012, 19:19   #9
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

mz,
ive been playing PA for a number of years now but hardly used these forums and thought i would have a quick look, and i have to admit that from a quick overlook, these stats are the best ive seen since coming back to PA from when i left donkeys years ago.

Good work
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Unread 25 Nov 2012, 19:58   #10
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

Stats look good at first glance.

I like the concept of Terran ships cost loads... i never played PA back in those days so im taking the presumption that although the cost is high the ships pack a punch for their price yes?

As a side query... as its rd 50 wouldnt using rd1's stats be a good idea? or maybe the first round we had 4 races??
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Unread 25 Nov 2012, 20:05   #11
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

r1 stats were shite
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Unread 25 Nov 2012, 20:17   #12
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
I like the concept of Terran ships cost loads... i never played PA back in those days so im taking the presumption that although the cost is high the ships pack a punch for their price yes?
A/C and D/C hasn't changed (much, though I've tried to make the racial properties more prominent), the capital ships are just bigger than they were the last 10 rounds or so. That isn't just a Ter thing, I've done it across the board. Cat's Scorpion costs 5k, Zik's Pirate costs 7k, Etd's Liquidator costs 6k. I appear to have overlooked the Peacekeeper's, it's still Cr sized. Expect it to cost a bit over 3k when I'm done with it.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.

Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 25 Nov 2012 at 20:33.
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Unread 25 Nov 2012, 20:35   #13
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

Emp resistances need a bit of tweaking but the stats inits and that look decent though MZ
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Unread 25 Nov 2012, 21:24   #14
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

First of all good changes.

Im ok with the high variety in prices of ships between the hulls. since it makes amps and dists better since youll always have the ability to fake your high cost ships with a very low investment in cheap ships.
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Unread 25 Nov 2012, 21:53   #15
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

Zik with no fr/de fleet but instead they have a co roid fleet? WTF?

1 Fi Roid
2 co roid
1 Fr roid
2 De Roid
2 Cr roid
2 Bs roid

Wtf is this crap move Zik Co to Fr and have 1 fi and 1 co


Can't have Mara out init Pirate Zik's will solo cover ziks with nothing lost because steal v steal.
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Unread 25 Nov 2012, 21:56   #16
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

or don't
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Unread 25 Nov 2012, 22:09   #17
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

I'm happy with Zik Co. Much more than before the last batch of changes. The roiding fleets I've picked are beyond debate by now, honestly.

What I am currently unhappy with is the Arrowhead. The latest batch of changes was meant to force Xan to get siege fairly early on, but that's basically made the Arrowhead obsolete, as the Vsharrak already fulfills the role of anti-Co fairly well. Thinking of changing the Arrowhead to high-init anti-De: you can make do with it, but the Peacekeeper will be vastly superior.

I might also do something with Tycoon/Tarantula and Wyvern/Rogue, which are basically the same ships for different races. Switching some targets around might make teaming up more attractive. I've pretty much made these stats without paying attention to team up options, so there's probably some things to fix in that regard.

I don't expect I'll be making another giant batch of targetting changes like I did earlier today, though.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 26 Nov 2012, 07:16   #18
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

Arrowhead should be anti de. I really don't care about two from different races being similar.
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Unread 26 Nov 2012, 10:30   #19
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

Etd were strong but they can't team up any other race with FR, same goes for xan who can't team up with FI. All the other fleets from all races can team up... so i wouldn't nerf them too much.
I'm not fan of all the pods having the lowest Emp res in their class... meaning on every attack fleet the pods will be freezed way before the rest of the fleet is.
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Unread 26 Nov 2012, 14:29   #20
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil View Post
Etd were strong but they can't team up any other race with FR, same goes for xan who can't team up with FI. All the other fleets from all races can team up... so i wouldn't nerf them too much.
I'm not fan of all the pods having the lowest Emp res in their class... meaning on every attack fleet the pods will be freezed way before the rest of the fleet is.
Agree with the team up options, and emp res of pods,
would you be open to the idea of another pod class for each race?
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Unread 26 Nov 2012, 16:12   #21
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil View Post
I'm not fan of all the pods having the lowest Emp res in their class... meaning on every attack fleet the pods will be freezed way before the rest of the fleet is.
The goal here is to make sure that you don't have to overkill with EMP to avoid getting roided. Current numbers are provisionary, I aim to tweak them so that pods are always only just the easiest hugged ship in a roiding fleet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_Esper View Post
would you be open to the idea of another pod class for each race?
No. 3 pod stats would require a complete new setup. I'm not against 3 pod stats in general, but not for this set.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 26 Nov 2012, 16:33   #22
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

i worry, from a very quick look, that the Ranger is to strong..

it out inits both the pulsar and the corsair and the rest of ships that target FR do it after the Investor which EMPS them (except the Roach which is still t2 only)..

looking at the rest of the stats it appears that most races hit other race's roiding fleets first OR equally (in initiative) - which doesnt appeal to me but I can see why you've done that..

..but the ETD FR fleet seems to have been set up differently?

other than that I really like the look of these stats
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Unread 26 Nov 2012, 16:50   #23
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

the ranger is GREAT for attacking. Then again, most races will be looking to attack etd. But I wouldnt mind seeing spider/harpy with a fr on its t2 to give more races the ability to ally def atleast, and spider would preinit but only as emp t2.

Also ill post what I suggested to mz on irc
Syren
init 8 -> init 6
dmg 135 -> 160

wyvern t2 removed and added to
dragon t2 -> de

this would make the syren useful, wyvern less imba and also make wyvern different from rogue
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Unread 26 Nov 2012, 17:27   #24
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

Moving the Wyvern's T2 to the Dragon wrecks Ter Bs, as it allows both the Drake and the Bolt Thrower to fire before it. Considering that Ter De is also not a great solo roiding fleet, I'm hesistant to make that change. I might make the Syren an anti-Bs ship instead, which would make it better than the Drake against Zik Bs. The only other alternative that I can see is making it a Frigate that fires at Cr, but my heart isn't really in it.

The Arrowhead will become an init 7 anti-De ship.

I'm also very tempted to switch the targets on the Rogue, and increase its D/C a bit to allow it to take on Drakes a bit better.

Unless someone comes up with a brilliant idea, I won't be changing the Tarantula or Tycoon, because I can't think of anything to do with them.
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Unread 26 Nov 2012, 18:09   #25
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

Bolt thrower is fr so nothing would change there. but yeah drake would fire before it. atm tho the only thing stopping ter bs is ghost t2 and bolt thrower, wyvern has the highest ac+dc of the mt ships in the stats so its pretty good as is. I cant imagine it would be broken if drake would fire before it aswell.

I think making the syren anti bs would break bs more than chaning the wyvern targetting tbh, as it would be as syren this round only that it fires before instead of same, and that it wont be targetted by tulas in crbs teamups like this round.
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Unread 26 Nov 2012, 18:23   #26
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Switching some targets around might make teaming up more attractive.
I'd prefer to see teaming up being made less attractive ... but that's because I like to see solo attacks with a decent chance of both getting through AND being defended against.

This has nothing to do with my just having been attacked by 1 wave of 6 Cr fleets followed by a wave of 6 BS fleets...... honest.
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Unread 26 Nov 2012, 19:18   #27
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Complete list of changes
Locust ERes 73 -> 75
Scorpion ERes 76 -> 77
Arrowhead complete overhaul (init 7 anti-De)
Haunt Class Cr -> Bs, D/C 150 -> 175
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Unread 26 Nov 2012, 23:30   #28
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

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Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
the ranger is GREAT for attacking. Then again, most races will be looking to attack etd. But I wouldnt mind seeing spider/harpy with a fr on its t2 to give more races the ability to ally def atleast, and spider would preinit but only as emp t2
ETD may get attacked a lot but does that means you give them the stronger of the attacking options?

Needs balancing IMO but ppl may disagree
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Unread 27 Nov 2012, 07:44   #29
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

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Originally Posted by baggy View Post
ETD may get attacked a lot but does that means you give them the stronger of the attacking options?
Yes
Etd is cleary a race for solos, people who are focussed on attack and get little def. it is normal to give them a strong attack option, coz they'll have to fight hard to replace the roids they lose + they have emp ships in their attack fleets which is not very frightening for the defenders.
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Unread 27 Nov 2012, 08:11   #30
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

Odds are that I will make the following changes later today:

Syren: Class Cr -> Fr, T1 De -> Cr
Rogue: T1 Fr -> De, T2 De -> Fr, Init 8 -> 7
Broker: Type Cloak -> Emp, T1 De -> Fr, T2 Fr -> De, Init 7 -> 2, high D/C
Tycoon: Type Emp -> Cloak, Init 2 -> 8, low D/C

This should make the Syren useful. I feel it also slightly improves the Etd Cr fleet and significantly improves Etd's anti-Bs defense.

I have no problem with the Ranger as it currently is, but I'd be open to suggestions about how to make Etd a bit less shitty defensively.

Also, no complaints about the Peacekeeper being non-Cloak? (I won't change it, but I'm kind of disappointed no one even cares )
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.

Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 27 Nov 2012 at 08:40.
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Unread 27 Nov 2012, 09:02   #31
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk[/quote
Also, no complaints about the Peacekeeper being non-Cloak? (I won't change it, but I'm kind of disappointed no one even cares )
Noticed that last night, but figured it was intentional. Great set of stats btw. Mostly

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Unread 27 Nov 2012, 13:05   #32
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
Probably the best first draft of stats Ive seen around
That's because it's far from the first draft. I'm pretty sure I looked at the first draft(?), gave some opinions and lots of things have been changed. This is certainly much better than the stats I looked at, but it only goes to show that stats are a process that gradually gets better, not something you make a few quickfixes on and then make official (like this round).
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Zik: 3rd(r30), 4th(r52), 7th(r27), 9th(r26), 31st(r51)
Ter: 3rd(r50), 4th(r53), 4th(r37), 5th(r31) 7th (r58)
Xan: 3rd(r36), 40th(r57) 54th(r33), 104th(r29)
Cat: 8th (r54), 9th(r48), 12th (r55), 20th(r32), 77th(r23), 103rd(r38), 150th(r34), 152nd(r24),
Etd: 14th(r28)

Those damn emp races..
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Unread 27 Nov 2012, 13:59   #33
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

The version I showed Golan was my third one, though the first I showed to someone else. The version I posted here was my sixth. We're currently on draft 8, and number 9 will come along later today.

P.S. Sup Cochese.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 27 Nov 2012, 22:42   #34
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

Alrighty. I've just finished uploading the changes I proposed earlier today, as well as some other things:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Incomplete list of changes
TER:
Centaur: Dmg 37 -> 39
Gryphon: added as fr firing at cr, init 7
Syren: removed

CAT:
Redid EMP
Various minor changes to Cost & Arm to make the D/C of the new EMP setup work out correctly
Tarantula Cost/Armor/Guns increased by 25%, ERes increased to match.
Termite: Cost 3k -> 4k, Arm/Dmg increased to match

XAN:
Arrowhead: Dmg 10 -> 9
Peacekeeper: Arm 131 -> 141, Dmg 153 -> 143
Haunt: Cost 3200 -> 3600, Arm/Dmg increased to match

ZIK:
Rogue: T1 Fr -> De, T2 De -> Fr

ETD:
Broker: Type Cloak -> Emp, T1 De -> Fr, T2 Fr -> De, Init 7 -> 2
Tycoon: Type Emp -> Cloak, Init 2 -> 8
As you can see, I've also completely redone ERes, which was needed because I totally botched my first attempt at them. They're much better now. I had to make a bunch of minor changes to EMP ships to make it work out, but I've not listed those above. I don't think I've seriously ****ed anything up, but let me know if I have.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 28 Nov 2012, 00:05   #35
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

Thought I posted this earlier but guess I didnt.

Dont you think etd will be too cathy now. With both their spammy mt ships being emp. I feel they should get a normal/cloak/steal mt instead of one of the emps.

And dont you feel rogue is too good with that change ?
It rapes all de and fr now before the change the drakes were viable atleast.

I also think it would be a good idea to have the arrowhead init 8. So that xan gets more of a incentive to go hulls 3.

Good change with the pk giving it more of a normal ship armor.

Is the emp effs and ac/dc rates balanced now? Haven't really looked into em yet cause people tend to change them last for some reason
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Unread 28 Nov 2012, 05:44   #36
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

This should be helpful:
https://gist.github.com/7a51d8ca6295e2803e8f

I'll look at your other points later on.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 28 Nov 2012, 09:21   #37
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
And dont you feel rogue is too good with that change ?
It rapes all de and fr now before the change the drakes were viable atleast.

I also think it would be a good idea to have the arrowhead init 8. So that xan gets more of a incentive to go hulls 3.
How does the rogue rape xan de and etd fr? Yes it rapes ter de, big whoop, team up with a xan pal.

I think the arrowhead is fine now tbh, they'd have to build both arrowhead and peacekeeper to be "immune" to de solos, while DE teams can still land on xans for free.
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Unread 28 Nov 2012, 23:15   #38
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
Dont you think etd will be too cathy now. With both their spammy mt ships being emp. I feel they should get a normal/cloak/steal mt instead of one of the emps.
I'm fine with this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
And dont you feel rogue is too good with that change ?
It rapes all de and fr now before the change the drakes were viable atleast.
Switching the targets has made Zik Bs better against Drakes and worse against Investors and Bolt Throwers. There are no other Fr/De that fire at Bs.

Zik Bs vs. Ter De: http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=bvdldn0uhiiu0yj
Zik Bs vs. Bolt Thrower: http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=fvpqf5xir115eq8 (no De home, obviously)
Zik Bs vs. Etd Fr: http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=zyhi9zon7u9p039

I had Ter down as roidable by Zik Bs, so I'm actually a little surprised how bad Zik Bs is against Ter. Armor kicks ass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
I also think it would be a good idea to have the arrowhead init 8. So that xan gets more of a incentive to go hulls 3.
Ter De vs. Arrowhead: http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=h3355n98kitau06
Ter De vs. Peacekeeper: http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=2i4p1e3rawpzfun

Clear advantage for the Peacekeeper there. No incentive needed.

Xan De vs. Arrowhead: http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=b4oc8krwndieogo
Xan De vs. Peacekeeper: http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=c9ky15jkp131d63

These calcs surprise me, though. I hadn't quite realized the Ghost fires before the Peacekeeper. Even at T2 that makes quite a dent. Having to build two anti-De ships would be rather harsh on Xans. On the other hand, Xan is an offensive race, so it fits their profile.

I might lower Peacekeeper's init to 5 to clearly make it the better option. I did a quick experiment and losses would go down to 45k for the Peacekeeper when it fires at init 5, thanks to increased salvage, compared to 70k for the Arrowhead. Init 5 Peacekeeper would kill roughly the same amount of Xan De as the Arrowhead. Comments and suggestions welcome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
Is the emp effs and ac/dc rates balanced now? Haven't really looked into em yet cause people tend to change them last for some reason
It's extremely unlikely the effs are anything close to balanced at this moment. However, we are reaching the stage where the targeting is getting close to final (but no promises!), meaning it's starting to become useful to put some likely fleet combos into the bcalc and seeing how they work out in the real world. As I said earlier in this post, I'm already seeing some surprises, so expect many, many tweaks, but no more great overhauls.

(Oh, and I've been busy all day, so no list of changes. Maybe tomorrow, and I'll definitely have time on friday.)
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.

Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 28 Nov 2012 at 23:21.
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Unread 29 Nov 2012, 00:12   #39
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

You must also take in the equation that arrowhead has -1 eta advantage vs de while peacekeeper cant even def in ally.
Arrowhead also is cloaked, guess that don't matter to much tho since its easy to get enough cheap pods to fake pk aswell.
So It seems rough taking the big chunk of xan smalls research output into hulls3.
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Unread 29 Nov 2012, 03:59   #40
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

DE really isn't an issue, since wthout *hugs*, or enough numbers (and/or fake believable numbers) to force a recall) since Ter DE fires first, Xan vs Xan is always messy, and there isn't another DE roiding fleet.


Quote:
Arrowhead also is cloaked, guess that don't matter to much tho since its easy to get enough cheap pods to fake pk aswell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
You must also take in the equation that arrowhead has -1 eta advantage vs de while peacekeeper cant even def in ally.
Moot point, since the PK can't defend in ally, as you said.
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Unread 29 Nov 2012, 21:49   #41
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

There's no way of making the Peacekeeper clearly the better option without either ruining the Arrowhead completely (opening Xan to De incs for the first 300 ticks) or by completely overpowering the Peacekeeper (turning Xan into a fortress from tick 500 onwards).

I think the current situation, in which one Xan anti-De ship is good against Xan De, and the other one is good against Ter De is as good as we're going to get. I expect that gal makeup will largely determine what ship people will prefer to build. Alternatively, having equal value in both may be a viable option as well.

Lacking reasonable options to make these ships stronger or weaker in combat, I'm considering making the Arrowhead normal and the Peacekeeper cloaked. That way, it'll be hard to fake Arrowheads, easy to fake Peacekeepers, but once the fleets are in combat, they'll do about equally well (depending on the opponent, obviously).

In other news, I'll be spending some time in the bcalc tomorrow, seeing how well fleets work against the various races. So far I've mostly done it in my head, but as we saw yesterday evening, my brain is far from perfect.

Below, I've outlined some fleets that I think are viable. For most races, I've listed a dual roiding fleet option, as well as the 2 single roiding fleet options. The dual fleet options have 40% of fleet value in each roiding fleet, and 20% in the non-roiding def ship. For the single fleet options, I went 20% in any necessary non-roiding def ship, and everything else in the single roiding fleet.

Some single roiding fleets are not viable due to ending up with the same or less value in the roiding fleet than either one of the fleets in the dual roiding fleet option. In those cases, I've just ignored the single fleet option. I've also ignored Etd Fi.

As always, I'd like to hear opinions. I think these fleets are pretty reasonable, but I may be wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terran fleet options
Mixed
Pegasus 9500 Drake 6500 Demeter 500
Wyvern 2200 Dragon 1900 Leviathan 100
Centaur 14000

Pure De
Pegasus 15000 Drake 10500 Demeter 500
Centaur 14000 Wyvern 2000

Pure Bs
Wyvern 3200 Dragon 2700 Leviathan 100
Harpy 50000 Centaur 10000 Drake 5000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathaar fleet options
Mixed
Viper 50000 Beetle 80000 Mosquito 5000
Roach 8000 Tarantula 6500 Hornet 500
Locust 17000

Pure Co
Sucks.

Pure Cr
Roach 12000 Tarantula 10000 Hornet 500
Beetle 60000 Locust 17000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xandathrii fleet options
Mixed
Vsharrak 220000 Pulsar 170000 Illusion 10000
Fireblade 29000 Ghost 21000 Vampyre 2000
Arrowhead 40000 Peacekeeper 3000

Pure Fi
Vsharrak 330000 Pulsar 250000 Illusion 10000
Arrowhead 40000 Ghost 21000 Peacekeeper 3000

Pure Fr
Sucks.

(pure Arrowhead & pure Peacekeeper also options)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zikonian fleet options
Mixed
Thief 50000 Cutlass 60000 Smuggler 5000
Rogue 3500 Pirate 3000 Pillager 200
Marauder 6500

Pure Co
Sucks.

Pure Bs
Rogue 5500 Pirate 4600 Pillager 200
Cutlass 50000 Marauder 6500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eitraides fleet options
Mixed
Ranger 24000 Investor 33000 Rambler 5000
Broker 9000 Tycoon 6500 Bailiff 1000
Dealer 16500

Pure Fr
Ranger 35000 Investor 53000 Rambler 5000
Dealer 16500 Broker 9500

Pure Cr
Sucks.
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Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 29 Nov 2012 at 22:03. Reason: Can't ****ing spell 'Eitraides'.
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Unread 29 Nov 2012, 22:13   #42
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

I like your idea of switching the cloak on arrow and pk
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Unread 29 Nov 2012, 22:52   #43
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
I like your idea of switching the cloak on arrow and pk
I think I do too.
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Unread 30 Nov 2012, 00:23   #44
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

Why should any Xan ship be non-cloaked?

(Other than pods and SKs).
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Unread 30 Nov 2012, 08:57   #45
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

Why not?
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 30 Nov 2012, 13:50   #46
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

I have no issue with xan having a non cloaked ship. But as xans main strength is faking it should be a higher class ship that is uncloaked. You will get to a point otherwise with the arrowhead where it costs too much to build enough pods to 'fake' it... At least with the peacekeeper this route is easier to acheive
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Unread 30 Nov 2012, 14:10   #47
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

Kaiba thats what we want to achieve.. Not being able to fake it.
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Unread 30 Nov 2012, 16:30   #48
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

the peacekeeper is a worthless ship anyway, so i wouldnt worry too much about it.
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Unread 30 Nov 2012, 16:35   #49
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

Ok. I just did a bunch of calcs. They were all 1-on-1 calcs, I haven't played around with alliance or gal defense.

Ter looks pretty balanced. Fairly hard to roid with, fairly hard to roid.

Cat gets roided by almost every fleet out there, and roids only 4. Cat Cr will get a 10% D/C boost later this weekend. Might nerf the Locust a bit. May also boost A/C by up to 10%.

Xan currently owns the shit out of everything. Only pure Cat Cr roids Xan Fi on equal values, and nothing roids the dual Xan fleet at the moment. Xan will get a 5-10% A/C and a 5-10% D/C nerf, at least, with more being a definite possibility later on.

I'm going to nerf the D/C of Zik's kill ships by about 10%. Beyond that, they look pretty balanced.

I will probably give Etd Cr a 10-15% boost to D/C and a 5-10% to A/C. Etd Fr will get a slighly lower boost than that.

(I will also look at Cat Co, Xan De and Zik Co, to see if I can boost those fleets in some way that doesn't boost the dual fleets for those races. If not, so be it, but if it is then I'd like to make all single roiding fleets setups viable.)


Oh, and as announced yesterday, I just switched the types on the Peacekeeper and the Arrowhead. I also reverted the change I made to the Peacekeeper earlier: 141 Arm -> 132 Arm, 143 Dmg -> 152 Dmg.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.

Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 30 Nov 2012 at 16:47.
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Unread 30 Nov 2012, 18:00   #50
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Re: mz' R50 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Why not?
If we're going to change or ignore a race's characteristics in the cause of developing a set of stats I think "why" is the more valid question.

(Of course we should also then be looking to update the manual in line with the stats).
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