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Unread 15 Apr 2016, 13:50   #51
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Re: r66 Changes

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Its very hard for me to make up my own opinion on this feature.
We need to have a round with normal stats run, and look at the fleet data after that round has ended.
Stop saying stuff that makes me agree with you
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Unread 15 Apr 2016, 20:49   #52
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Re: r66 Changes

Maybe they should change the alliance def fleet

add a bit of coding so for example.
#1 rank alliance gets 30 def fleets, all assigned to bottom 30% of alliance planets in terms of value
#2 rank alliance gets 33 def fleets, all assigned to bottom 35% of alliance planets
#3 ....35/45
#4 ....39/55
#5 ....43/67
#6.....46/70
#10 ... every planet gets a fleet

or some form of scaling so allianes at the top use less fleets, and alliances at the bottom get full access..
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Unread 15 Apr 2016, 23:02   #53
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Re: r66 Changes

Why should they do that?
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Unread 15 Apr 2016, 23:07   #54
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Re: r66 Changes

Sounds like coding in support planets to me!
Edit: I say this because I notice that the bottom 30% of an alliance of 60 is 18 planets, or bottom 30% of 40 is 12 - so a considerable expansion for these planets in terms of number of defence fleets.
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Unread 16 Apr 2016, 20:41   #55
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Re: r66 Changes

When playing in BF, only 5 in 60 wouldnt answer calls. Ult is probably the same, in FL, a bit more. This feature probably only affected those alliances making it easier to do what they were already used to do.
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Unread 16 Apr 2016, 21:42   #56
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Re: r66 Changes

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Originally Posted by fortran View Post
When playing in BF, only 5 in 60 wouldnt answer calls. Ult is probably the same, in FL, a bit more. This feature probably only affected those alliances making it easier to do what they were already used to do.
5/60? Lol, sounds wierd.
The scanner mustve been 1 of them, as when there was no scans in BF the code was to call magicmaniac who controlled some of the scan multies?
Did titans planets also have phone numbers?
Just fck off would u
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Unread 16 Apr 2016, 22:58   #57
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Re: r66 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by fortran View Post
When playing in BF, only 5 in 60 wouldnt answer calls. Ult is probably the same, in FL, a bit more. This feature probably only affected those alliances making it easier to do what they were already used to do.
Oh to have an alliance like that!

However I dont quite understand the point in the context of the thread. Is this in support of caj by saying top alliances need the feature less so should have to do with it less? Or is it a counter point that since all the ppl in a top alliance wake up when called what is the point in limiting the number of alliance fleets?
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Unread 16 Apr 2016, 23:00   #58
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Re: r66 Changes

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
5/60? Lol, sounds wierd.
The scanner mustve been 1 of them, as when there was no scans in BF the code was to call magicmaniac who controlled some of the scan multies?
Did titans planets also have phone numbers?
Just fck off would u
If one just had to call A to get B, B can still be considered responsive.

But I don't think this response rate is something amazing. Everyone answers eventually. Sometimes one have to place 20 calls or wait for a certain hour to be able to call. And if a player can't be reached for some nights, that's something that will be dealt with.

The best allies exceed others when they have more players helping will calls, recalls, bcalcs, etc. This feature just improve defense a little making it easier, but it is not enough to affect the round results.
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Unread 16 Apr 2016, 23:03   #59
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Re: r66 Changes

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Originally Posted by booji View Post
Oh to have an alliance like that!

However I dont quite understand the point in the context of the thread. Is this in support of caj by saying top alliances need the feature less so should have to do with it less? Or is it a counter point that since all the ppl in a top alliance wake up when called what is the point in limiting the number of alliance fleets?
The point is: alliances with a good defense system doesn't need this feature, so talking about how the feature would benefit them and unbalance even more the game is dumb.

Imo the discussion here should be how this helped ND, Bows, Hr, CT and P3ng
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Unread 16 Apr 2016, 23:12   #60
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Re: r66 Changes

In normal incs it is helping p3n immensely. It remains to be seen what happens in an actual conflict. I personally have suspicions that it has resulted in an even less responsive alliance than we had before - but then this round was supposed to be no def at all in p3n so some is better than none. As a result I don't think p3n will be able to say the real effect it has had on us until we have a value round.

You mention alliances having 'a good defense system' in p3n's case it has forced the creation of a defense system no matter how shaky it may be where previously there was none. The negative side is that some of us get much less sleep than we would have done had this feature not been implemented.
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Unread 17 Apr 2016, 11:05   #61
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Re: r66 Changes

ofc this feature helps every alliance in the game.
Even for a Ultores member its time demanding to get up every night to send defence fleets, though the ones who will benefit the most is the lower tier alliances like HR/ND/P3nguins, given that they have players being awake at inc-hour, CT/BowS/BF/Ults/FL always had decent defence capabilities during peace time.
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Unread 20 Apr 2016, 17:14   #62
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Re: r66 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
ofc this feature helps every alliance in the game.
Even for a Ultores member its time demanding to get up every night to send defence fleets, though the ones who will benefit the most is the lower tier alliances like HR/ND/P3nguins, given that they have players being awake at inc-hour, CT/BowS/BF/Ults/FL always had decent defence capabilities during peace time.
I find it amusing how you keep trying to play up Bows and play down other allies that spanked you. May I remind you that those allies you listed as lower tier 2 of the three beat you last round. Additionally Bows has never ranked higher than fifth with an average of 6th place. Funny seems they started to get they're act together slightly more once you "retired" and Joseph/Brazil/Ult came in.
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Unread 20 Apr 2016, 19:16   #63
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Re: r66 Changes

the point of the def fleet was to even out the game, make weaker alliances able to def better.

thus i say why not make the top alliances unable to use this feature (to some extent) and allow the weaker alliances (4-8th.. whatever..) to use the feature more...

Wouldnt that improve the game more?
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Unread 20 Apr 2016, 19:50   #64
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Re: r66 Changes

I would be more in favour of your suggestion if you kept every player's number of ally launchable fleets at 1 rather than letting it go higher as you do.

However I see little reason why big planets should not also get to have an ally def fleet. Often big planets are the ones that soak up all the def and don't give very much back. The ally def fleet may help change that a little. People controling bigger planets need to sleep too! That said if it is felt that the number of slots makes ally defence too good now and the numbers need to be cut then I agree that top planets should be the first to lose them. Or perhaps the fleet can only be a percentage of a planet's whole fleet (33%?) to prevent def planets with only one shiptype that leave them all in ally def.
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Unread 21 Apr 2016, 05:12   #65
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Re: r66 Changes

Tag rank is not a good metric for alliance strength.
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Unread 21 Apr 2016, 19:59   #66
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Re: r66 Changes

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Originally Posted by ReaperSix View Post
I find it amusing how you keep trying to play up Bows and play down other allies that spanked you. May I remind you that those allies you listed as lower tier 2 of the three beat you last round. Additionally Bows has never ranked higher than fifth with an average of 6th place. Funny seems they started to get they're act together slightly more once you "retired" and Joseph/Brazil/Ult came in.
Funny how you keep dragging in stuff that has nothing to do with the defence part of the game.

So HR/ND/p3nguins usualy have good defence or usualy have the worst defence in the univers?
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Unread 21 Apr 2016, 23:10   #67
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Re: r66 Changes

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Funny how...
So HR/ND/p3nguins usualy have good defence or usualy have the worst defence in the univers?
Bows and p3n def has been very similar. Last 8 rounds for bows/9 for p3n bows has had on average a recall rate of 53.03% compared to p3n's 52.71% but p3n has had much higher incs 57.58 per member compared to bows 47.56.

p.s. what is the relevance to the thread?
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Unread 23 Apr 2016, 05:44   #68
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Re: r66 Changes

In the old days there were active and inactives players.
Then with the smartphones apps a new form of playing appeared: the passive players:
They wait for a message on their phone to tell them where and when to launch/recall. Other than that, there is no proactive action... "Incs ? bah nobody told me to send def"...

With this new feature, passive players don't even need to answer the calls.
An alliance can be run by a handfull of active players using their passive core as proxy accounts. We're just coming closer to legal multi accounts.
Why not if it keeps the game alive, but i(d like to see some improvements/changes:
- a player can't put more than x% of his fleet value in the ally fleet
- a player can select who can launch his ally fleet (HC, DC, all or even a few members selected by coords).
- once launched the ally fleets can't be recalled before eta4 (the owner can hit the recall button anytime but the recall wil only happen at eta4).
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Unread 23 Apr 2016, 21:18   #69
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Re: r66 Changes

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Originally Posted by booji View Post
Bows and p3n def has been very similar. Last 8 rounds for bows/9 for p3n bows has had on average a recall rate of 53.03% compared to p3n's 52.71% but p3n has had much higher incs 57.58 per member compared to bows 47.56.

p.s. what is the relevance to the thread?
R63

BF Average 49 inc each member - 62% inc recall - Attack average 44 - Defence Average 30
P3ng Average 49 inc each member - 52% inc recall - Attack average 42 - Defence Average 36
FL Average 70 inc each member - 53% inc recall - Attack average 38 - Defence Average 45
CT Average 58 inc each member - 43% inc recall - Attack average 48 - Defence Average 40
BowS Average 58 inc each member - 58% inc recall - Attack average 43 - Defence Average 53
Ult Average 56 inc each member - 43% inc recall - Attack average 42 - Defence Average 28
HR Average 34 inc each member - 46% inc recall - Attack average 34 - Defence Average 34
ND Average 39 inc each member - 43% inc recall - Attack average 37 - Defence Average 32
Norse Average 27 inc each member - 42% inc recall - Attack average 43 - Defence Average 24

--------

R64

Ult Average 80 inc each member - 68% inc recall - Attack average 30 - Defence average 65
FL Average 53 inc each member - 57% inc recall - Attack average 40 - Defence average 39
p3ng Average 60 inc each member - 56% inc recall - Attack average 51 - Defence average 41
BF Average 44 inc each member - 51% inc recall - Attack average 35 - Defence average 26
CT Average 41 inc each member - 50% inc recall - Attack average 45 - Defence average 40
BowS Average 46 inc each member - 58% inc recall - Attack average 33 - Defence average 54
Åsgard Average 36 inc each member - 39% inc recall - Attack average 46 - Defence average 32
HR Average 40 inc each member - 39% inc recall - Attack average 36 - Defence average 33
ND Average 33 inc each member - 36% inc recall - Attack average 50 - Defence average 27

----------

R65

p3ng 43 inc each member - 53% inc recall - Defence average 31

---

Okey, perhaps their defence hasnt been that more worse than the rest, but in general their average defence fleets sent per round on average is in the lower tier on average.
Usualy, p3ng has been spread very well, and a good chunk of their defensive power has been from ingal, in my experince.
With this new feature, p3nguins got a much bigger potential to get better at defence than alliances that sends out a lot of defence fleets each round.
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Unread 23 Apr 2016, 21:20   #70
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Re: r66 Changes

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Originally Posted by Makhil View Post
- once launched the ally fleets can't be recalled before eta4 (the owner can hit the recall button anytime but the recall wil only happen at eta4).
This does make FCing easier atleast.
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Unread 23 Apr 2016, 21:52   #71
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Re: r66 Changes

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Okey, perhaps their defence hasnt been that more worse than the rest, but in general their average defence fleets sent per round on average is in the lower tier on average.
As an alliance that has traditionally been bad at def and good at attacking I would readily concede that we are not very good at def. Though 'lower tier' therefore lunping us in with HR, Norse etc who have recall rates around 30-40% when we have a higher than 50% recall rate seems a little spiteful.

Btw over the full 8/9 rounds I mentioned earlier our def has been pretty similar to everyone but Ult/BF. The recall averages are:
Ult 57.25%
BF 56.41%
Fl 54.26%
Bows 53.03%
p3n 52.72%
CT 51.02%
HR 43.91%
ND 40.64%

Quibbling over differences of a single percentage point seems to be semantics to me!

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Usualy, p3ng has been spread very well, and a good chunk of their defensive power has been from ingal, in my experince.
This is true. However our ally def per member is on average not that different from others too. Though I have to admit bows ally def is impressive. Over the same period as previously:
Ult 39.78
Bows 36.58
BF 35.35
CT 34.29
P3n 33.21
Fl 33.54
HR 26.12
ND 25.08
So again we are talking differences of one or two fleets per member over a whole round. From these stats it is ND and HR that should really be able to benefit. It will be interesting to see how much their def stats go up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
With this new feature, p3nguins got a much bigger potential to get better at defence than alliances that sends out a lot of defence fleets each round.
I am less sure about this. I personally am pretty convinced that p3ns bad defence has been more about having no DCs than not having players who will launch def at night. Because there are no DCs p3n has always had a fair few nights where there is pretty much NO def sent AT ALL. Yet others where there has been good coverage simply because someone happened to be around and DCd for the alliance.
The difference that this feature has made has been that it is easier for people to DC without having to spend each whole hour calling large chunks of the alliance so there has been a group willing to try out DCing again. Of course which alliances benefit will be very dependent upon which have DCs or members who can control the system overnight.
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Last edited by booji; 23 Apr 2016 at 22:04. Reason: Adding in HR as another alliance that should benefit
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Unread 23 Apr 2016, 22:18   #72
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Re: r66 Changes

Well if you are counting the two rounds p3nguins accidently won, ofc their stats should show that they were very good defenders.
Lately p3nguins has not been favourites to win any round, the later Ultores era, and i was simply just suggesting that p3nguins had been bad-not top tier defenders the last year or so.
As far as i understood it, p3nguins did not have a set DC team/system, wich then would not make em as good as alliances that might have had this, and as your stats show p3nguins is below CT/FL/BowS/BF/Ult in average def fleets sent.

ND did not have any defence system when i was there last round, and randomly sending out fleets at night might improve their defence.
P3nguins, i imagine, have players that would be interested to save their ranks, therefor staying up when they get to PL to cover their own roids.
BF/Ult/BowS has usual had a DC team, or dedicated people doing defence accross ally.
CT/FL atleast has had this some rounds aswell.
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Unread 23 Apr 2016, 22:56   #73
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Re: r66 Changes

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Well if you are counting the two rounds p3nguins accidently won, ofc their stats should show that they were very good defenders.
Must you denigrate us with every post? They were hardly accidental victories. And they were very much attacking not defending victories; other alliances def was very similar, but p3n sent huge numbers of attack fleets.

P3n round 58 stats:
recalls: 52.17%, ally def fleets 35.36, ally attack fleets 59.55 (14 more than the second most)
P3n round 59 stats:
recalls 47.04, ally def fleets 28.11, ally attack fleets 69.97 (huehue fl actually had marginally more but only 4 def fleets per member, all others had 10 less attack fleets)
Edit please note round 59 was the most recent xp round before this one!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Lately p3nguins has not been favourites to win any round, the later Ultores era, and i was simply just suggesting that p3nguins had been bad-not top tier defenders the last year or so.
I personally tend to think this too but the statistics don't back it up. P3n sent more ally def fleets in round 64 than any other round except 57 and in round 63 sent very similar amounts to round 58 (more than any round in between). So the difference in p3n performance is more likely due to a decline in attack activity not a change in defence.

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
As far as i understood it, p3nguins did not have a set DC team/system, wich then would not make em as good as alliances that might have had this, and as your stats show p3nguins is below CT/FL/BowS/BF/Ult in average def fleets sent.
Correct but this is exactly why creating a DC system is more likely to have an impact on p3n's def than the ally launch option. Both having happened in the same round it will unfortunately be impossible to tell anything from p3n's stats this round as we would not be able to separate the possible causes of a change. Unless of course there is no change but that would be a bit of a shock!

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
P3nguins, i imagine, have players that would be interested to save their ranks, therefor staying up when they get to PL to cover their own roids.
Normally yes. Unfortunately we kicked most of the ppl who did that last round... perhaps this is part of the reason why we had to begin thinking about DCing again!
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Unread 23 Apr 2016, 23:53   #74
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Re: r66 Changes

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Originally Posted by booji View Post
Must you denigrate us with every post? They were hardly accidental victories. And they were very much attacking not defending victories; other alliances def was very similar, but p3n sent huge numbers of attack fleets.

P3n round 58 stats:
recalls: 52.17%, ally def fleets 35.36, ally attack fleets 59.55 (14 more than the second most)
P3n round 59 stats:
recalls 47.04, ally def fleets 28.11, ally attack fleets 69.97 (huehue fl actually had marginally more but only 4 def fleets per member, all others had 10 less attack fleets)
Edit please note round 59 was the most recent xp round before this one!

Point being that p3ng was a top tier alliance(sent the most defence fleets for exampleI) in terms of attack fleets recalled and defence fleet sent, wich then again would put you higher up in any average count up of all those rounds, the fact that p3nguins defence was pretty poor back then could either suggest that p3nguins won rounds where there were very few, if any, strong alliance competing, or in rounds where the stats was "fcked up" like R59.

All this is not relevant to what i was suggesting, or from what experince/ideas i had of how p3nguins was working.
P3nguins with no active DC team/system, but still having "dedicated players" compared to ND/HR, would be a alliance that would gain more from this new feature than alliances that has been known for having some what working defence system like FL/Ult/BowS/BF.
If you are disagreeing with this, fine.
If you are saying my perception of p3nguins, thats fair, as ive never been a member over there.
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Unread 24 Apr 2016, 07:34   #75
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Re: r66 Changes

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Point being that p3ng was a top tier alliance(sent the most defence fleets for exampleI) in terms of attack fleets recalled and defence fleet sent, wich then again would put you higher up in any average count up of all those rounds
I guess we need the full stats but this was really not the case. P3n def was pretty average in these rounds, it was our attack that was exceptional.

Round 58
p3nguins recalls:52.17 incs/member:66.77 total fleet:106.53 Ally def fleets:35.37 Attacks:59.55
Conspiracy recalls:47.60 incs/member:60.75 total fleet:89.23 Ally def fleets:42.02 Attacks:45.63
FURGION recalls:31.56 incs/member:52.60 total fleet:72.37 Ally def fleets:9.52 Attacks:51.05
Black Flag recalls:53.08 incs/member:68.10 total fleet:87.10 Ally def fleets:46.05 Attacks:41.07
Faceless recalls:55.25 incs/member:48.29 total fleet:74.64 Ally def fleets:29.71 Attacks:37.54
NewDawn recalls:44.91 incs/member:43.00 total fleet:84.36 Ally def fleets:31.93 Attacks:40.34
Rainbows recalls:50.53 incs/member:50.20 total fleet:89.48 Ally def fleets:43.44 Attacks:42.31
Howling Rain recalls:48.44 incs/member:33.03 total fleet:69.37 Ally def fleets:32.56 Attacks:32.95
ODDR recalls:26.31 incs/member:27.67 total fleet:47.61 Ally def fleets:9.11 Attacks:32.00
Apprime recalls:27.42 incs/member:33.07 total fleet:52.20 Ally def fleets:0.93 Attacks:43.33

We may argue we should ignore 59 as it is an xp round but anyway:

p3nguins recalls:47.05 incs/member:78.68 total fleet:121.42 Ally def fleets:28.22 Attacks:69.97
Conspiracy recalls:37.37 incs/member:76.22 total fleet:79.03 Ally def fleets:19.05 Attacks:52.72
Black Flag recalls:50.31 incs/member:72.52 total fleet:104.92 Ally def fleets:30.82 Attacks:59.42
ULTPRIME recalls:41.38 incs/member:71.33 total fleet:85.07 Ally def fleets:27.38 Attacks:46.75
Inferno recalls:50.12 incs/member:71.26 total fleet:98.79 Ally def fleets:29.96 Attacks:50.93
Rainbows recalls:42.71 incs/member:68.17 total fleet:93.75 Ally def fleets:30.15 Attacks:52.93
NewDawn recalls:32.15 incs/member:50.82 total fleet:75.82 Ally def fleets:22.39 Attacks:47.13
hu3hu3 faceless recalls:24.81 incs/member:53.40 total fleet:83.91 Ally def fleets:4.02 Attacks:71.51
Howling Rain recalls:35.39 incs/member:47.55 total fleet:81.15 Ally def fleets:26.83 Attacks:38.19
THE FOCKERS recalls:28.99 incs/member:53.08 total fleet:73.46 Ally def fleets:3.27 Attacks:67.77

In both cases it is clear that p3n ally def was ok, but nothing exceptional compared to other allies; in round 58 BF and FL had higher % recalls and Bows, CT and BF all sent more def fleets. In 59 BF and Inferno both had higher % recalls and Bows BF and Inferno all sent more def fleets. The big difference is that p3n sent huge numbers of attacks. It seems clear that the total fleet activity matters immensely not just the defence.

And on the contrary round 57 in which p3n did badly ending up 5th is the only round with very good ally def.

Conspiracy recalls:55.27 incs/member:43.82 total fleet:81.38 Ally def fleets:39.02 Attacks:45.60
Black Flag recalls:54.56 incs/member:50.83 total fleet:87.02 Ally def fleets:39.18 Attacks:47.77
Faceless recalls:53.07 incs/member:54.23 total fleet:82.52 Ally def fleets:40.12 Attacks:39.92
Ultores recalls:57.34 incs/member:82.47 total fleet:93.32 Ally def fleets:53.83 Attacks:39.48
p3nguins recalls:55.51 incs/member:65.19 total fleet:91.40 Ally def fleets:42.57 Attacks:44.91
Spore recalls:56.68 incs/member:37.72 total fleet:85.32 Ally def fleets:32.42 Attacks:44.96
NewDawn recalls:42.78 incs/member:36.58 total fleet:74.88 Ally def fleets:31.04 Attacks:42.14
Howling Rain recalls:46.51 incs/member:47.88 total fleet:82.37 Ally def fleets:36.06 Attacks:39.63
HEROES recalls:33.46 incs/member:31.56 total fleet:67.84 Ally def fleets:13.84 Attacks:49.88
Vikings recalls:35.92 incs/member:29.23 total fleet:50.46 Ally def fleets:12.73 Attacks:22.69

Here both alliances that had good def activity did badly as they were the two allies that got badly blocked against showing the influence of inc numbers may well be more important than defence activity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
the fact that p3nguins defence was pretty poor back then could either suggest that p3nguins won rounds where there were very few, if any, strong alliance competing, or in rounds where the stats was "fcked up" like R59.
This presumes that an ally that is strong in attack is never a 'strong ally'. But put simply if Ally 1 has a 50% recall rate and ally 2 has a 60% recall rate but ally 1 sends out 50% more attack fleets than ally 2 ally 1 is most likely going to win. In round 59 p3n's total fleet launches per member was higher than any alliance from round 57 to 65. In round 58 p3n's total fleet launches per member was higher than any alliance from round 57 to 65 except p3n round 59.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
P3nguins with no active DC team/system, but still having "dedicated players" compared to ND/HR, would be a alliance that would gain more from this new feature than alliances that has been known for having some what working defence system like FL/Ult/BowS/BF.
This to me just does not logically add up. An alliance needs to have a working def system to benefit from ally def fleets. The alliances that should benefit are the ones that HAVE a defence system working but have had difficulty getting people to respond. This I would presume would mean particularly alliances like HR. But may also include Bows. On the contrary p3n needs to do something external to the game to make use of the change; build a defence system. If p3n were not to build a defence system it would not benefit from the ally defence change. The active members thing seems to be a red herring; those active members were able to get defence even before the ally fleets change as they would phone ppl for def as in any other alliance. Yet the alliances that have a system and were getting some response overnight but perhaps not as much as would be preferable to the ally would benefit. All is rather moot as p3n has been constructing a defence system in response. However I rather expect we will simply see from it that boosting def does not necessarily have any reflection on ally rank... pretty much what I am arguing here; you need to look at overall activity not just defence.
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Unread 24 Apr 2016, 08:12   #76
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Re: r66 Changes

Seems to me that the barrage of statistics is serving to obscure rather than enlighten.
But I will say this; in essence the game is about attack - which gets your roids and xp - which then wins the game. Victory is more or less a function of landing more than being landed on. It is obvious that this can be done in one of two ways - avoid being landed on by good defence or simply outrun your opponents by attacking so much you land far more than you get landed on.

[edit] Of course this ignores politics - which explains why the defensive route ends up more effective as a round winner (though much harder to do in terms of commitment). Simply that excellent defence provides a multiplier by encouraging people not to attack a defensive alliance outside a war situation. While attacking like crazy does the opposite - pissing off the maximum number of people simply because you hit loads of people.
But the original point still stands that at its most basic attack is a route to victory. It would be very odd indeed if no rounds had been won by attack - so p3ns victories may be the exception but their different strategic underpinning hardly invalidates them.
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Unread 24 Apr 2016, 11:22   #77
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Re: r66 Changes

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Originally Posted by booji View Post
This to me just does not logically add up. An alliance needs to have a working def system to benefit from ally def fleets. The alliances that should benefit are the ones that HAVE a defence system working but have had difficulty getting people to respond. This I would presume would mean particularly alliances like HR. But may also include Bows. On the contrary p3n needs to do something external to the game to make use of the change; build a defence system. If p3n were not to build a defence system it would not benefit from the ally defence change. The active members thing seems to be a red herring; those active members were able to get defence even before the ally fleets change as they would phone ppl for def as in any other alliance. Yet the alliances that have a system and were getting some response overnight but perhaps not as much as would be preferable to the ally would benefit. All is rather moot as p3n has been constructing a defence system in response. However I rather expect we will simply see from it that boosting def does not necessarily have any reflection on ally rank... pretty much what I am arguing here; you need to look at overall activity not just defence.
To have a working defence system means having people responding.




But ending the discussion, nobody realy wants this feature by the look of it.
P3ng dont need the feature by the sound of it, HR/ND dont aim to get much better.
This will just only make the game more defensive, the main "cry point" of many people out there, and therefor will result in more blocking and "unfair" politics.
Please remove it Appoco. The comitee has decided to vote against it.
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Unread 24 Apr 2016, 11:34   #78
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Re: r66 Changes

A bit early to say remove it, should at least wait until the stats for this round are out. We have also yet to hear from the 'training' alliances which despite our arguing about who it actually benefits I think we both agree the feature was probably meant for. The question is whether it actually helps them. Bram has made a couple of posts but they don't really give an opinion!
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Unread 24 Apr 2016, 11:40   #79
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Re: r66 Changes

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Originally Posted by booji View Post
A bit early to say remove it, should at least wait until the stats for this round are out. We have also yet to hear from the 'training' alliances which despite our arguing about who it actually benefits I think we both agree the feature was probably meant for. The question is whether it actually helps them. Bram has made a couple of posts but they don't really give an opinion!

HR didnt have a DC team last round, doubt they aquired any dcs now.

Lets just be honest that a feature wich disabled ults defwould be what people want
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Unread 24 Apr 2016, 11:54   #80
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Re: r66 Changes

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
The comitee has decided to vote against it.
What committee? You? Oh please.

I bet Rainbows for example uses this feature, I've noticed a big increase in their defence activity. All an alliance like Rainbows needs to do is organise a strategy, set their AF and a DC can coordinate defence without the annoying spam calling.

Most players now have jobs and busy real lives, and they don't want to be spam called every night. With this feature, even the less equipped alliances can defend adequately, it just requires organisation - it's not difficult.

Spam calling the shit out of people makes players want to quit, it's not fun. Sure, you can just go offense, but some alliances have the organisation to defend and don't want to play a CT/p3n style strategy.

Any alliance can take advantage of this feature, it just requires some organisation, and how do you know that other alliances haven't been using it? You can't base your conclusion on some alliances adopting an XP strategy where defence isn't in their strategy PERIOD this round.
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Unread 24 Apr 2016, 12:29   #81
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Re: r66 Changes

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Originally Posted by Clouds View Post
What committee? You? Oh please.

I bet Rainbows for example uses this feature, I've noticed a big increase in their defence activity. All an alliance like Rainbows needs to do is organise a strategy, set their AF and a DC can coordinate defence without the annoying spam calling.

Most players now have jobs and busy real lives, and they don't want to be spam called every night. With this feature, even the less equipped alliances can defend adequately, it just requires organisation - it's not difficult.

Spam calling the shit out of people makes players want to quit, it's not fun. Sure, you can just go offense, but some alliances have the organisation to defend and don't want to play a CT/p3n style strategy.

Any alliance can take advantage of this feature, it just requires some organisation, and how do you know that other alliances haven't been using it? You can't base your conclusion on some alliances adopting an XP strategy where defence isn't in their strategy PERIOD this round.
Sorry if you did not get the comitee joke, obviously it was refering to having stats being decided by a comitee earlier.

Don't get me wrong, all the alliances are likely to use this feature to save wakeup calls, but thats not my point.

Im not sure how this will affect PA in a normal round when most allies can send out 60 defence fleets daily more or less effort free.

If you have been following stats debates lately, or AD for that matter, people want effort free roids. If suddently all tags can send out 50+ def fleets on average each round, landing will become harder, and "politics(ganging)" will become the deciding factor.

In one suggestion thread/added features we are trying make ganging "less" effective with simplyfing the BP mixing prosess with hardcoding it, and with this we are trying to make ganging needed to breach, what i call it, "painbarrier"?
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Unread 24 Apr 2016, 12:38   #82
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Re: r66 Changes

Can't really say anything about this feature during/after a round like this, defo need a more "normal" round to properly evaluate.

Also, wth does BP size have to do with ganging? Helps to spread the losses to more gals? There's no gal def from the gangbangers to the bangees anyway (you should know this by now). On a third note, for one that isn't playing, you seem to have a lot of ideas and opinions on features you have no personal experience of.
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Unread 24 Apr 2016, 13:45   #83
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Re: r66 Changes

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Originally Posted by NoXiouS View Post
Can't really say anything about this feature during/after a round like this, defo need a more "normal" round to properly evaluate.

Also, wth does BP size have to do with ganging? Helps to spread the losses to more gals? There's no gal def from the gangbangers to the bangees anyway (you should know this by now). On a third note, for one that isn't playing, you seem to have a lot of ideas and opinions on features you have no personal experience of.
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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Its very hard for me to make up my own opinion on this feature.
We need to have a round with normal stats run, and look at the fleet data after that round has ended.
----

BP size/gal setups has a lot to do with how alliance politics is decided/setup, you know this. And im sure munkee has made his feeling known earlier on this subject, in terms of "fort avoidance deals".

And even in a "gang-bang-scenario" its VERY rare for alliance to actualy tell their members that you are not to defend allie X or Y. The obviously exception is when you are at war with a alliance.

Theorycrafting on what impacts this feature might add to PA is something that is necassary. Just saying that this feature allows people to live a normal life, and solves one of the issues this game has to being a attractive game for people to play is too simple.
My views/ideas on PL has been shared earlier, and ive claimed that PL attacking makes this game more asocial, while a lot has said it makes it less asocial.
The main argument has been that if PL is modified/changed, it will become harder for less hardcore players to land attacks.
And with the addition of this feature thats exactly what has happend, yet nobody seems to be willing to discuss this?
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Unread 24 Apr 2016, 14:44   #84
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Re: r66 Changes

Deffing allowed towards a tag your gangbangwagon is out to destroy? You haven't been a proper teamplayer in that many gang bangs then? Ofc there's differences here and there, but if I was participating in a group of alliances to destroy other alliance(s), I sure as h**l would appreciate it if the people I was attacking with didn't also defend against me or other parties on "our side"...

Fort avoids changed to limited targets / limited waves for this round, can't see a huge difference there IN REALITY in comparison to what effect fort avoids had, it's pretty much the same thing, but perhaps a bit more limiting offensively thanks to alliance being spread more. Thanks smaller BP size for making BCing even more horrible than it's been before. Did it have any other effect? No, not really.

I can't see what PL has to do with R66 changes, so I won't even start with that. Alliance def fleets have had no impact on the social aspect of our tag at least, other than that few people here and there have been a lot less grumpy in the mornings.
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Unread 24 Apr 2016, 15:36   #85
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Re: r66 Changes

The alliance def fleet is a horrible addition, both in making the game more boring and in making it require even less actual playing.
Now the def planets don't have to play(or cheat) they just have to log in and build.
I much prefer people cheating over not playing at all.
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Unread 24 Apr 2016, 17:58   #86
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Re: r66 Changes

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Originally Posted by NoXiouS View Post
Deffing allowed towards a tag your gangbangwagon is out to destroy? You haven't been a proper teamplayer in that many gang bangs then? Ofc there's differences here and there, but if I was participating in a group of alliances to destroy other alliance(s), I sure as h**l would appreciate it if the people I was attacking with didn't also defend against me or other parties on "our side"...

Fort avoids changed to limited targets / limited waves for this round, can't see a huge difference there IN REALITY in comparison to what effect fort avoids had, it's pretty much the same thing, but perhaps a bit more limiting offensively thanks to alliance being spread more. Thanks smaller BP size for making BCing even more horrible than it's been before. Did it have any other effect? No, not really.

I can't see what PL has to do with R66 changes, so I won't even start with that. Alliance def fleets have had no impact on the social aspect of our tag at least, other than that few people here and there have been a lot less grumpy in the mornings.
No, BowS did not attend many gangbangs.
We had one round where we had war with Ult, alongside a block, then we ofc didnt allow members to def our targets.

Its very rare that alliances tell their members to not def alliance X or Y, because it is for me a hostile act. If two allied tags keep coordinating their raids, gangbanging, against the other alliances they would perhaps try to avoid further attention if they want to avoid getting ganged back?

That you cant see what PL has to do with teh R66 changes just tells me your not very bright, or you look at the changes in a diffrent view than your buddy Clouds.
Many allies out there, perhaps not BF, use the PL function to play the game at "unsocial hours".
Instead of redoing PL, forcing players to either play the game at "social hours", or continue playing the game at "unsocial hours" at a much higher cost.
The cost to send defence fleet is much higher than PL attack fleets, or atleast they was before this implementation.
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Unread 24 Apr 2016, 19:56   #87
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Re: r66 Changes

I like the current method for launching fleets.

I see no issue with it. Infact I've found it another area for decisions to be made by an alliance such as what is the useful ships to have set for what enemy.

Nice change.
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Unread 24 Apr 2016, 22:37   #88
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Re: r66 Changes

Anything that makes someone's phone not ring in the middle of the night is a welcome feature.

We will have to wait for some numbers after the round ends (paging Appoco to this thread later)...though those numbers are probably not what a more defensive round would show.

It's a game, folks. We've all gotten older. It's silly to get up at night for this, unless you're in a situation to do so. I play purely out of habit these days, and to feed the universe roids.

Better me than someone "new" who actually cares!
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Unread 25 Apr 2016, 07:58   #89
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Re: r66 Changes

Butcher: As PL wasn't changed in anyway, I can't see the relevance of discussing PL in this thread. PL attacks / defense have nothing to do with allyfleets, BP changes, war changes, or even these stats. Just because of the simple reason that any changes didn't affect PL at all, it's not a valid discussion in this thread.
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Unread 25 Apr 2016, 12:58   #90
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Re: r66 Changes

Prelaunch allows people to attack when they're asleep.
Alliance fleet feature allows people to defend when they're asleep.

That's the relationship between the 2 features.
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Unread 25 Apr 2016, 17:57   #91
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Re: r66 Changes

I don't think it has been caused by ally launch but incs are definitely more spread out this round. Some alliances have shifted their launches to much later; Ult, p3n, some of the time BF to name a few. I however dont know if this is a result of ally changes. I would imagine in Ult's case it is a result of wanting to play a less intensive round.
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Unread 26 Apr 2016, 13:42   #92
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Re: r66 Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Prelaunch allows people to attack when they're asleep.
Alliance fleet feature allows people to defend when they're asleep.

That's the relationship between the 2 features.
Prelaunch makes YOU able to send an attack in xx ticks.
Ally fleet lets YOUR ally send a fleet thats needed at the exact time.

Then the question is, what is fun. You playing your planet or someone else.
Do we want a more defensive universe, more initarion? Or do we want a more offensive game.

And as for waking up in the middle of the night, just dont do it...
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Unread 26 Apr 2016, 14:52   #93
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Re: r66 Changes

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Originally Posted by Buddah View Post
Prelaunch makes YOU able to send an attack in xx ticks.
Ally fleet lets YOUR ally send a fleet thats needed at the exact time.

Then the question is, what is fun. You playing your planet or someone else.
Do we want a more defensive universe, more initarion? Or do we want a more offensive game.

And as for waking up in the middle of the night, just dont do it...
The whole point that was made by me was that allowing PL in the same way it is today, forced the game to be "played" at nighttime. WICH IS BAD
This ally defence fleet feature balance out defence and attack, wich could be bad.
With all the drama surounding "defensive stats", "defensive play", and all these heated subject, im quite suprised its so few that is actualy not heating up the debate on this subject?

"Do we want a more defensive universe, more initarion? Or do we want a more offensive game."

By all means, as far as ive understood it, they want a less defensive univers, and a more offensive game, but this feature could completely turn everything upside down.

Look at ND/HR/P3ng last round, they sent out on average 28 defence fleets the whole round.
Yet almost every other attack launched at them had to be recalled.
If alliances like p3n/ND/HR is using this new feature, they perhaps should be able to average 35 defence fleets each round, wich will increase the amount of incommings recalling more.
To be able to land any alliance, they will have to get pushed past the "pain barrier".
If the pain barrier during normal stats was 30-40 incs for certain tags, wich only half of their alliance willing to wake up to defend, you could easily add on another 20-30 incs before they starting going into red with this new feature.

Now this is just speculation, but if this change will make it harder to break through alliances defence with only one alliance, what has happend to ultores over the past few rounds would be a neccisity for landing tier 2/tier 3 alliances aswell, not to the same extent though.
Say ie CT wanted to attack and land on p3nguins, who earlier would start leaking roids after 40 incomming fleets, now they would have to make sure they get another 20-30 incommings to be sure they would be able to break through their defence.
Lets say that CT/FL/BowS/P3ng would be able to cover all nights/days with 70> incs. That was almost 70% of every night/day of last round.
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Unread 26 Apr 2016, 15:16   #94
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Re: r66 Changes

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Originally Posted by Buddah View Post
Prelaunch makes YOU able to send an attack in xx ticks.
Ally fleet lets YOUR ally send a fleet thats needed at the exact time.
It doesn't matter who launches it, what matters is that it's launched. That said, the 2 features are obviously not identical in every way. They are just similar.

As for whether the alliance fleet functions is good or not... Like Butcher and you(?), I'd prefer a game that did not all but require 24/7 availability as a prerequisite for doing well. I have never been able to come up with a satisfactory method of achieving that. Therefore, I'll settle for the next best thing, which is this. So far. If anyone comes up with a better method (or a way of improving this feature), I'll happily support that.
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Unread 26 Apr 2016, 16:25   #95
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Re: r66 Changes

While I agree with your general point BB that it will not take some more fleets to get through alliances I disagree with the extent to which this is the case. Certainly p3n has this round had plenty of incs get past us despite much improved defence. But while there are obvious defence benefits to the ally def feature there are also potentially attack benefits too. I have not personally seen alliances launch a big wave early in the night to draw in all the ally def then recall it only to relaunch but it would be perfectly possible. Any ally that in the past would fail to get ppl up to send def would now surely fail to get ppl up to recall their def!
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Unread 7 May 2016, 00:43   #96
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Re: r66 Changes

Seems like ND/P3nguins added another 2k defence fleets to this round.
BowS broke the record, correct me if im wrong, of total defence fleet sent in one round since the 60 man tag reduction.

I think it could be good to reconsider this change.
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Unread 7 May 2016, 01:12   #97
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Re: r66 Changes

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Seems like ND/P3nguins added another 2k defence fleets to this round.
BowS broke the record, correct me if im wrong, of total defence fleet sent in one round since the 60 man tag reduction.

I think it could be good to reconsider this change.
Are you making any sense?
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Unread 7 May 2016, 07:42   #98
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Re: r66 Changes

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Seems like ND/P3nguins added another 2k defence fleets to this round.
BowS broke the record, correct me if im wrong, of total defence fleet sent in one round since the 60 man tag reduction.
BB you could at least take a cursory look at history before you launch into your 'facts'; Ultores last round sent 4025 ally def fleets so more than bows this round. Both p3n and ND added around 1k not 2k def fleets compared to last round! Not to take anything away from bows though, their def was great all round, unlike p3ns which took a long time to start and then collapsed in the last few days.

Edit: I see you mean total defence. This may be true. However it has much less to do with the ally def fleets option than ally def fleets - particularly as no one is totally sure what the total defence stat means I refer you to http://pirate.planetarion.com/showpo...0&postcount=18 for the discussion about it last round.

Perhaps more relevant would be to quote apocco on Top Defence Sharing alliances:
+------+--------------+-----------------+
| Rank | Name | Fleets Launched |
+------+--------------+-----------------+
| 1 | RainbowS | 1420 |
| 2 | NewDawn | 1296 |
| 3 | Black Flag | 997 |
| 4 | p3nguins | 847 |
| 5 | Faceless | 378 |
| 6 | Howling Rain | 238 |
| 7 | Conspiracy | 146 |
| 8 | Norsemen | 95 |
| 9 | IRONFIST | 10 |
+------+--------------+-----------------+

I guess that about a third of the ally def fleets p3n sent could have been used at the time by the usual methods. Moreover we quite often totally ran out of defence so without ally def some of the fleets would have simply been sent at a different time. As such I would guess that around half those ally def fleets would ultimately not been launched if not for the ally def option. It is a nice addition, and makes things easier, but it is difficult to say it has been decisive. As said earlier in the thread for us the big difference has been that it has made people willing to dc.
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Unread 7 May 2016, 23:25   #99
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Re: r66 Changes

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Edit: I see you mean total defence. This may be true.
Ooooo lets not talk about total defence but I instead refer you to total attack fleets + total def fleets divided by number of members creating what might be considered to be fleet activity per member. Bows had a whopping 122.05, which is the highest since at least round 56 (as noted before I have not been looking at stats since before p3n returned) just beating out p3n round 59.

Looking at it is the lack of correlation between fleet activity and ranks that is striking:
Black Flag 84.73
Conspiracy 98.68
Ultores 108.16
Faceless 93.24
p3nguins 115.15
RainbowS 122.05
NewDawn 84.45
Howling Rain 83.15
Norsemen 101.83
Mercenaries 90.92

With activity like that bows deserved to do much better.
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Unread 8 May 2016, 09:09   #100
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Re: r66 Changes

If, as you say, there's no correlation, then that conclusion is unwarranted.
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