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Unread 25 Mar 2006, 20:32   #1
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Roid capping vs stealing

This is something no one has yet mentioned, as such.

What would be the impact of changing steal ships to fire before pods?
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Unread 25 Mar 2006, 21:02   #2
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

Ziks would end up with even more roids as xp whoring for them isn't profitable anymore. So for it to work, they would need some weaker ships.

It really has potential Appocomaster, good idea.
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Unread 25 Mar 2006, 23:33   #3
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

It would make stealing very strong. Its inherent weakness is that stealing ships cannot prevent roid-loss.


Change this and you change the entire nature of not only the Zik race, but also attacking and defending in Planetarion.
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Unread 26 Mar 2006, 02:58   #4
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

'It bad'


(before any idiot neg reps me, it's because of reasons outlined above and below)
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Unread 26 Mar 2006, 03:25   #5
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

No offence by why do you want steal ships?

Its impossible to balance the round as its entirely up to the average activity. Inactivity means good times for ziks, the oposite means hard times.

And why, in the name of all that is good and decent in this world, do you reset the stats each round? Whoever made that dectition needs to sign out and never show his face again...
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Unread 26 Mar 2006, 08:56   #6
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

Hmmm maybe.. it would cut out all the roid/ship exchanges that go on especially towards the end of the round.. think i had 3/4 people suiciding FR fleets on me just because i had pure pirates.. and i was quite happy for them to do that as it meant i gained in value and became less fat.. but i think it would make zik ships too powerful, especially when defending as they no longer just steal but reduce cap amount
Not too keen on this but maybe if the stats were done right..
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Unread 26 Mar 2006, 14:55   #7
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

I dont remember why but there were some reasons way back when, when they changed zik stealers to steal after roidships.
Changing them back might just bring those old problems up again.
ofc. a lot of things have changed since then, so it might not be a problem
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Unread 26 Mar 2006, 15:57   #8
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
It would make stealing very strong. Its inherent weakness is that stealing ships cannot prevent roid-loss.


Change this and you change the entire nature of not only the Zik race, but also attacking and defending in Planetarion.
Actually.. i am not sure about the first part. Changing stealing to shoot before pods means its less interesting for attackers to suicide-swap pods for roids, since they won't get the roids anymore if they do. This in turn makes it harder for Ziks to get 'easy' access to extra podclasses and be a pain in the ass for any target they attack by faking fleets. Alot of ppl would chose to recall as getting your fleet stolen for no roids isn't really an option, where swapping your fleet for roids (XP whoring etc) is. As the stealing would still occur after the kill/emp ships have fired it doesn't change much compared to current style when facing the normal kill/emp ships.

On the offence side for Ziks it wouldn't change to much (unless you count the odd chance you steal pods and increase your cap that way).

I do agree to the second part that in any case it would change the way the race is played.
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Unread 2 Apr 2006, 04:54   #9
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

Please try this for a round or 2

Actually the stealers in r2 stole before the pods. This would cut down on suicide runs on zik but otherwise would not make enough of a difference except when using steal ships for def.
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Unread 2 Apr 2006, 11:59   #10
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

I've instead decided to change the capping formula so that xp is proportional to the square root of the percentage of ships not killed or stolen. This means that landing on ziks and getting all your ships stolen may be a good way of getting roids, but it gets you 0 xp.

The formula is basically:
xp = roids*bravery_factor
bravery factor = 10 * min(2,(target_value/your_value)*(% ships remaining)^1/2).

For example:
losing 25% of your fleet loses 13% of your xp
losing 50% of your fleet loses 30% of your xp
losing 75% of your fleet loses 50% of your xp
losing 90% of your fleet loses 68% of your xp

This means that losing lots of fleet when attacking is less viable, and suiciding 95-100% of your fleet is far less excusable for xp reasons. Either the calc was wrong, you forgot / couldn't recall or you're donating ships
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Unread 2 Apr 2006, 13:18   #11
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

is % of ships remaining an absolute or in terms of value - imo it shouild be in terms of value otherwise it will favour certain types of fleets actions (stats dependatn ofc)
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Unread 2 Apr 2006, 13:20   #12
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

No no no no no no no no no no!

This rewards you for having your target run his fleet. It rewards teamup attacks where you simply overpower the target and force him to run. It rewards 'soft' farming where you attack someone who you know will run. Meanwhile, a clever faker who loses, maybe, 20% of a small fleet but caps max roids against defence which is 10x his value gets less XP!

And all of this before even mentioning the word 'Cathaar'
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Unread 2 Apr 2006, 13:24   #13
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

To clarify, I see XP as being a reward/risk payoff thing. The payoff should be highest for the riskiest attacks - where you land against potentially heavy def, relying on your skill and intuition to figure out whether it's safe to land. The least risky attacks - where the target gets no def and is forced to run by overpowering force - should receive the least XP.

This formula goes in the opposite direction, with the highest rewards for the least risky attacks.
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Unread 2 Apr 2006, 13:54   #14
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
To clarify, I see XP as being a reward/risk payoff thing. The payoff should be highest for the riskiest attacks - where you land against potentially heavy def, relying on your skill and intuition to figure out whether it's safe to land. The least risky attacks - where the target gets no def and is forced to run by overpowering force - should receive the least XP.

This formula goes in the opposite direction, with the highest rewards for the least risky attacks.
I agree, though you still get more xp for hitting a bigger target, so it might balence out - perhaps somehting that directly punnishes multiple attackers is needed
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Unread 2 Apr 2006, 13:59   #15
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
I agree, though you still get more xp for hitting a bigger target, so it might balence out - perhaps somehting that directly punnishes multiple attackers is needed
I disagree, cooperation shouldn't be discouraged. In addition, XP is (imo) and should continue to be about positive reinforcement of attacking upwards, not negative reinforcement against other types of behavior.
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Unread 2 Apr 2006, 14:14   #16
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
This means that losing lots of fleet when attacking is less viable, and suiciding 95-100% of your fleet is far less excusable for xp reasons. Either the calc was wrong, you forgot / couldn't recall or you're donating ships
To elaborate on what rob said right at the end of his post concerning cathaar this system is going to be inherently biased towards cathaar and xan attacking, both of which involve landing and not losing ships due to the high firepower, low armour paradigm, and against terran with the reverse paradigm. Also how does it work for zik? Some ziks land and basically trade in a cap, so they might lose 30% of their value in their attacking fleet but cap 40%. Do they get punished for this? If it's based on a pure how much value do you have at the end is your xp going to go through the roof for landing on a shit inactive planet and capping all his ships? That at least can just be limited by putting a roof on % of ships remaining at 100.
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Unread 2 Apr 2006, 14:20   #17
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

Also, what if a Zik wants to lose some of his useless ships and get a load of X ships? Ziks in Round 16 would have happily sacrificed a load of Marauders in return for Terran DE to complement their own DE fleets.
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Unread 2 Apr 2006, 16:15   #18
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

and how do you suggest adjusting this? race specific values?
TBH, I thought it'd be better if Terran and Zik had a better "flak rate" than Xan and Cath, so while they lost more ships they potentially got a better cap and were harder to stop.
It should be fairly easy to add the amount stolen from the defenders to the bonus for zik if necessary, but I'm a bit worried about doing so.
Unfortunately, the code is such that it's about 1 million times easier to take the total initial/lost/stolen/emped/etc value than a fleet specific one.
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Unread 2 Apr 2006, 16:28   #19
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

Perhaps it should be weighed against the amount of defenders fleet destroyed. SO if you loose 25% of a 400k value fleet but you kill 100k in defenders there is no loss to xp for landing. Terrans and Zik could then still max cap and get full xp even if some of their fleets were destoyed in the process.
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Unread 2 Apr 2006, 17:18   #20
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

I like to think of XP as actual experience gained by the pilots flying the ships. So there's a certain amount of experience gained simply by capping roids - the more roids you cap, the more experience since more of your pilots get to 'do something'.

A battle against a significantly larger force should bestow significant XP if the pilots live to benefit from it. This implies that you should get more XP from battles in which you are, to some extent, defended against. This is more of a risky landing, so it satisfies the principle that higher risks should have higher payoffs.

This applies regardless of what the defence ships are. Although, in the abstract, we know that Wyverns don't fire at Interceptors, I'd imagine that in a real battle an Interceptor pilot would still have to pull off some evasive manoeuvres to avoid the Wyvern fire. To me, the idea of nimble Interceptors dodging the fire from the lumbering Wyverns makes it feel a bit more like a space game and a bit less like a spreadsheet. Digression: the old ship stats did this much better with the Weapon Speed and Agility system - r3 Destroyers did fire at r3 Ints, they just couldn't fire fast enough to hit them.

I like the idea that dead ships don't bring back any XP, but if the battle is against a larger force then those ships which do survive should score more XP.

This would lead to the following results (calculated based on attacking fleet value vs. defending fleet value):

A landing against no def would give the basic rate of XP.
A landing against small def with low losses would give slightly more XP.
A landing against heavy def with low losses would give higher XP.
A landing against small def with high losses should give less than the basic rate of XP.
A landing against heavy def with high losses should give approximately the basic rate of XP.

Obviously the weighting here would be crucial - I don't think major XP bonuses should kick in until you're facing a fleet at least equal to your own fleet's value, possibly higher.

As an aside, would it be possible to add XP to the news reports? Just something like 'Your pilots gained 67320 experience points in this battle' would be a major help to newbies.
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Unread 2 Apr 2006, 19:19   #21
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
and how do you suggest adjusting this? race specific values?
TBH, I thought it'd be better if Terran and Zik had a better "flak rate" than Xan and Cath, so while they lost more ships they potentially got a better cap and were harder to stop.
It should be fairly easy to add the amount stolen from the defenders to the bonus for zik if necessary, but I'm a bit worried about doing so.
Unfortunately, the code is such that it's about 1 million times easier to take the total initial/lost/stolen/emped/etc value than a fleet specific one.
I suggest this.

As with rob's first paragraph in the post above this one, the essential principle is the same.
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Unread 2 Apr 2006, 19:40   #22
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

'Your pilots gained 67320 experience points in this battle'

dead pilots dont have use for their newly earned xp
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Unread 2 Apr 2006, 20:03   #23
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

Quote:
Originally Posted by robban1
'Your pilots gained 67320 experience points in this battle'

dead pilots dont have use for their newly earned xp
But the ruling gov. of the hostile planet need the street kred.
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Unread 3 Apr 2006, 00:09   #24
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

Quote:
Originally Posted by robban1
'Your pilots gained 67320 experience points in this battle'

dead pilots dont have use for their newly earned xp
I guess it's the commanders actually earning the XP.
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Unread 3 Apr 2006, 00:13   #25
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

I'm in agreement with Rob. In entirety. It reflects the very idea of XP while preserving the concept of value ergo "win".
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Unread 3 Apr 2006, 00:19   #26
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

w.r.t. Rob's point, you basically want a factor of intial defending value/ inital attacking value?

and the point about the fleet commanders having to be alive to be able to use their experience is fairly legitimate

Edit:
Having thought about this, surely this means that you can get a lot more xp by getting people to send useless ships to defend against you?


Also, I'm toying with the idea of semi-breaking a lot of the skins and adding in XP beside value and score on the resource header thing on most pages .
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Unread 3 Apr 2006, 00:31   #27
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
w.r.t. Rob's point, you basically want a factor of intial defending value/ inital attacking value?

and the point about the fleet commanders having to be alive to be able to use their experience is fairly legitimate
I don't think Rob's formula rewards XP for dead ships, infact it reduces it. What he's proposing is weighting the value of fleets defending (increases XP) against the number of ships the attacker loses (decreases XP) to help determine XP.

The fleet commanders bit (although I think from what Rob is getting at, he's correct) is thoroughly irrelevant. All he's proposing on this little bit is a feature which shows how much XP and resulting score you get in combat reports to show newbies that they need to think about XP.
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Unread 3 Apr 2006, 00:42   #28
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
I don't think Rob's formula rewards XP for dead ships, infact it reduces it. What he's proposing is weighting the value of fleets defending (increases XP) against the number of ships the attacker loses (decreases XP) to help determine XP.

The fleet commanders bit (although I think from what Rob is getting at, he's correct) is thoroughly irrelevant. All he's proposing on this little bit is a feature which shows how much XP and resulting score you get in combat reports to show newbies that they need to think about XP.
Thats the way I read it aswell.

Its a good idea, with strong merits. To be honest though, if someone can find a middle ground wrt to the attacking/defensive nature of the stats, all this might even be unnecessary.
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Unread 3 Apr 2006, 00:53   #29
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
w.r.t. Rob's point, you basically want a factor of intial defending value/ inital attacking value?
Exactly.

Quote:
Edit:
Having thought about this, surely this means that you can get a lot more xp by getting people to send useless ships to defend against you?
Sadly true, but it should be incredibly easy to detect. It seems to me like something the MH tools could pick up - it would involve repeated interactions (defending against) by a limited set of unallied planets. Another solution would be to limit defending to planets in your alliance/galaxy, though this is an idea with many negative aspects.

Quote:
Also, I'm toying with the idea of semi-breaking a lot of the skins and adding in XP beside value and score on the resource header thing on most pages .
Excellent

Quote:
Originally Posted by robban1
'Your pilots gained 67320 experience points in this battle'

dead pilots dont have use for their newly earned xp
Sorry, I might not have been clear enough about this - all I meant with this point was that the combat reports should tell you what the total XP gain from a battle was, in terms of the total amount of score gained.
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Unread 3 Apr 2006, 17:42   #30
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

I've instead decided to change the capping formula so that xp is proportional to the square root of the percentage of ships not killed or stolen. This means that landing on ziks and getting all your ships stolen may be a good way of getting roids, but it gets you 0 xp.

The formula is basically:
xp = roids*bravery_factor
bravery factor = 10 * min(2,(target_value/your_value)*(% ships remaining)^1/2).

For example:
losing 25% of your fleet loses 13% of your xp
losing 50% of your fleet loses 30% of your xp
losing 75% of your fleet loses 50% of your xp
losing 90% of your fleet loses 68% of your xp

This means that losing lots of fleet when attacking is less viable, and suiciding 95-100% of your fleet is far less excusable for xp reasons. Either the calc was wrong, you forgot / couldn't recall or you're donating ships
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Ok as no-one arsed to awnser my question (and im not patient) i was wondering how does this work with freezing, is it the same as losing ships?

if it doesnt i can see nobody picking Cath (except those with top 10 alliance).
And i can expect millions of Fi/Co fleets incomming as i will be playing value Cath.
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Unread 3 Apr 2006, 18:16   #31
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thefoundation
Ok as no-one arsed to awnser my question (and im not patient) i was wondering how does this work with freezing, is it the same as losing ships?

if it doesnt i can see nobody picking Cath (except those with top 10 alliance).
And i can expect millions of Fi/Co fleets incomming as i will be playing value Cath.
How did I not think of that
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Unread 3 Apr 2006, 18:40   #32
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

I'm not sure I'm a big fan of the new addition to the formula. Rob was complaining about the other formual because it rewarded you if the target ran his fleet. Now it is the other way around, if the target stays you get more xp.

I don't think this is a good idea as it makes it far more likely for people to run their fleets when they have inc which in general might not be a bad thing. However the main reason I don't like this change is because it makes terran bs even stronger than it already is. Before the change it was always likely that a xan would leave wraiths home to kill terran bs. With this change in place terrans won't care whether wraiths are sent or not; as long as it doesn't stop full cap they will get approximately the same score whether the defence stays or not. This means it is more likely that defence won't be sent in the first place as the chance of a recall is too small comapred to the risk of the wraiths being killed. A similar situation occurs with other ships as well (barghest vs roach, seraph vs pegasus to name a couple of my head)

One other thing I think this formula does is to encourage you to hit inactives below your value, as they are less likely to run their fleet. If you send the minimum possible fleet value to get full cap for few/no losses against someone who won't run their fleet you will get similar xp to hitting someone bigger than you who does run. That just doesn't seem right to me.
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Unread 3 Apr 2006, 20:59   #33
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
How did I not think of that
sorry Paddy i want to continue on the Cath part of this formula.. Can any1 vision the numbers of incommings a value cath player will get? Millions of figthers and corvettes (they cant kill those) (i think, im a n00b so dont know for sure). I want to play cath but not like this, cath has a like a twice as much incommings if every XP whore gana attack cath aswell........

still no word from appoc, ill check irc now
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Unread 3 Apr 2006, 21:06   #34
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy
I'm not sure I'm a big fan of the new addition to the formula. Rob was complaining about the other formual because it rewarded you if the target ran his fleet. Now it is the other way around, if the target stays you get more xp.

I don't think this is a good idea as it makes it far more likely for people to run their fleets when they have inc which in general might not be a bad thing. However the main reason I don't like this change is because it makes terran bs even stronger than it already is. Before the change it was always likely that a xan would leave wraiths home to kill terran bs. With this change in place terrans won't care whether wraiths are sent or not; as long as it doesn't stop full cap they will get approximately the same score whether the defence stays or not. This means it is more likely that defence won't be sent in the first place as the chance of a recall is too small comapred to the risk of the wraiths being killed. A similar situation occurs with other ships as well (barghest vs roach, seraph vs pegasus to name a couple of my head)

One other thing I think this formula does is to encourage you to hit inactives below your value, as they are less likely to run their fleet. If you send the minimum possible fleet value to get full cap for few/no losses against someone who won't run their fleet you will get similar xp to hitting someone bigger than you who does run. That just doesn't seem right to me.
afther a good read, and think session....

your so rigth, hasnt beta proofed this?
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Unread 4 Apr 2006, 09:27   #35
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
This is something no one has yet mentioned, as such.

What would be the impact of changing steal ships to fire before pods?
Could be good if you make the steal formula less strong.

Advantage: Ziks become (better) defenders and get to have an actual chance in defending their own roids.
Disadvantage: Ziks steal less ships then before
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Unread 4 Apr 2006, 12:28   #36
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
This is something no one has yet mentioned, as such.

What would be the impact of changing steal ships to fire before pods?
have you considered going halfway
stealers and pods with same init
you could balance this by reducing the steal power slightly
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Unread 4 Apr 2006, 13:08   #37
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

Quote:
Originally Posted by gzambo
have you considered going halfway
stealers and pods with same init
you could balance this by reducing the steal power slightly
You do realize that this wouldn't actually change the current situation at all?
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Unread 4 Apr 2006, 13:48   #38
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

Quote:
Originally Posted by gzambo
have you considered going halfway
stealers and pods with same init
you could balance this by reducing the steal power slightly
Are you taking the piss? This is literally no different to having stealers fire after pods.
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Unread 4 Apr 2006, 16:16   #39
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

surely if you kill a pod after its capped, it cant transport the roids home, so even if steal ships steal a pod after its "captured" a roid, the roids wouldnt have got very far, so the zik would keep the roids....

What if the rule wasnt that zik steal init is less than 20 so fire before the pods, but if the pods are killed before the end of the battle, the roids go nowhere....

This is basically the same theory but reworded and tbh sounds fair, its too easy to suicide on a zik with a decent pod fleet, lose a lot but steal roids on max xp, thus encouraging xp whores...


And not sure who said it, but the new xp formula has to be flawed in the fact that fair enough if you lose most of your ships you shouldnt get much xp, but would this encourage more xp whoring on cat targs that will jus freeze?
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Unread 4 Apr 2006, 16:26   #40
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

Quote:
Originally Posted by higginz
surely if you kill a pod after its capped, it cant transport the roids home, so even if steal ships steal a pod after its "captured" a roid, the roids wouldnt have got very far, so the zik would keep the roids....
It opens a wormhole in space or whatever.
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Unread 4 Apr 2006, 16:27   #41
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Treveler
And why, in the name of all that is good and decent in this world, do you reset the stats each round? Whoever made that dectition needs to sign out and never show his face again...
Good point, if a decent set of stats were found would they remain for two rounds running?
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Unread 4 Apr 2006, 17:14   #42
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

What about :

XP = roids stolen* bravery factor

bravery factor = 10 * min(2, (target_score/planet_score) * survival_factor * new_bravery_factor)
survival_factor = ((intial_total_attacking_fleet_value + value_of_ships_stolen_by_attackers/3 - value_of_ships_EMPED_by_defenders/2 - total_attacking_fleet_value_lost)/initial_total_attacking_fleet_value)^(1/2)
new_bravery_factor = max(1,min(2,total_initial_defence_value/(total_initial_attacking_value*4)))
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Unread 4 Apr 2006, 17:38   #43
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

I actually think this formula probably goes too far the other way in terms of EMPed ships. Divided by 3 or 4 might be a bit better as otherwise hitting caths becomes far worse than any other race for gaining xp.

With the new_bravery_factor thing, having done a few calcs I think I was probably wrong about the wraith/ter bs problem as 3x value in wraith kills all terran bs. However I can't actually see any point of this new bravery factor mulitplier at all. If you're attacking a decent player either they will only leave the ships home that target the attackers fleet and this will never be anywhere near 3x, let alone 4x, the value of the attackers fleet. Changing the 3 to a 4 does help alleviate the other problem I commented in my last post (hitting inactives who won't run to get more xp) however I can't actually see any point to this multiplier at all. If anything it encourages losing ships to gain xp which is what I thought the whole formula was meant to prevent in the first place.
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Unread 4 Apr 2006, 18:07   #44
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

Given that you don't lose fleet value in attacking a Cath (usually), that is probably a good thing Paddy.
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Unread 4 Apr 2006, 18:39   #45
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

considering the xp formula is supposed to be about bravery, its probably a good thing if the formula was changed so you gain less xp for attacking a cathaar, as tbh attacking a cat is the wimp thing to do (although its often the smartest idea).

So attacking a terran, might be more difficult, might lose more ships etc. so deserves more credit for bravery?

Think you should add that formula apoco so cat emp'd ships are included too
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Unread 4 Apr 2006, 19:02   #46
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
What about :

XP = roids stolen* bravery factor

bravery factor = 10 * min(2, (target_score/planet_score) * survival_factor * new_bravery_factor)
survival_factor = ((intial_total_attacking_fleet_value + value_of_ships_stolen_by_attackers/3 - value_of_ships_EMPED_by_defenders/2 - total_attacking_fleet_value_lost)/initial_total_attacking_fleet_value)^(1/2)
new_bravery_factor = max(1,min(2,total_initial_defence_value/(total_initial_attacking_value*4)))

Thank you
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Unread 4 Apr 2006, 19:14   #47
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

Quote:
Originally Posted by higginz
So attacking a terran, might be more difficult, might lose more ships etc. so deserves more credit for bravery?
I'd substitute an xan for a terran planet because of xan's high damage efficiencies, but I essentially agree.
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Unread 4 Apr 2006, 19:28   #48
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

The new formula uses score to hinder XP players quite substantially.
in some ways, just changing the original formula to score could well "solve" the issue of playing for XP (although changing the bash limit to score would help).
Together with the inclusion of stolen ships, I can see both Zik and Xan benefitting from this. Cathaar aren't quite so good targets with their factor of EMPed ships reducing XP.
If you look at quite a few defenses from the recent past, a lot of the players (especially those not in say the top 50) do leave ships at home. Terran (especially Terran that fake) and Cathaar, arguably the best attacking races, would then benefit from the gain in xp as they could well reach the levels of defence necessary to trigger the new bravery factor.
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Unread 5 Apr 2006, 00:20   #49
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

YES YES YES!

Adding the score aspect means people can't keep it deliberately low, and reflects the achievement of cap better.

i.e. a planet with higher score is likely to be more active, and so be online to see your incs come in and arrange defence or build ships to counter.
also a planet with a higher score is likely to be allied and therefore more likely to be defended.

when u take these things into account, attacking a high 'score' planet is much more challenging, so should be rewarded more.

/me hugs appocomaster
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Unread 5 Apr 2006, 13:22   #50
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Re: Roid capping vs stealing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
What about :

XP = roids stolen* bravery factor

bravery factor = 10 * min(2, (target_score/planet_score) * survival_factor * new_bravery_factor)
survival_factor = ((intial_total_attacking_fleet_value + value_of_ships_stolen_by_attackers/3 - value_of_ships_EMPED_by_defenders/2 - total_attacking_fleet_value_lost)/initial_total_attacking_fleet_value)^(1/2)
new_bravery_factor = max(1,min(2,total_initial_defence_value/(total_initial_attacking_value*4)))
I'm struggling to see the justification here. Why does getting EMPed cause you to gain less XP, assuming that it doesn't affect your cap rate? It's supposed to be a bravery factor, but there's nothing scary about EMP. It's only scary if it a) freezes enough pods to stop capping or b) freezes your stuff before it fires, thus leaving more enemy ships alive to do damage to you at higher initiative levels.

There's also a slight issue here in the sense that EMP ships are uber-effective, but this is counter-balanced by the fact that they generally can't win a (defensive) battle alone. In defence, EMP's main purpose is to keep the other defenders alive, enabling them to hurt the attacker, or to directly reduce the attacker's cap rate by freezing pods. Defences where the entire attacking fleet are frozen are very rare.

If you lose XP for having your ships frozen, EMP defence becomes a lot more effective. It gains the ability to directly cause score loss, whereas it has traditionally existed to enable other ships to fulfil this role.

I think we're in danger of being a bit too harsh on Xans. They get EMPed easily, and lose ships easily. They will rarely take part in high-stakes combat, so won't benefit from the new bravery factor either.

Apologies for being critical, especially as part of this is my suggestion. I'll have a think about it and see if anything else occurs to me later.
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