NSA - phone calls list

[Androme]

Article: http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/05/....ap/index.html

Not to be paranoid but I wonder what we still don't know about our own government in the UK. I think our government has a role to keep us safe, but I also think they have a right to protect AND respect our freedoms.

Here's an image that sums up my view pretty much.

I know its been done to death but...

Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
-Ben Franklin

[meglamaniac]

Frankly I'd be more worried that AT&T not only rolled over and let it happen, but actually colluded to keep it a secret until one of their own employees blew the whistle. It's nice that mainstream media finally picked it up, but the story's been out for around a month now - it started with AT&T allowing the NSA to catch their customer's emails and other traffic, and the phone bit was discovered later.

We all accept that Bush is pretty untrustworthy. We all accept that large telcos (like any big business) can get up to some devious tricks. Until now, we hadn't really expected to see them working together.

That image is pretty accurate, and good old Benjamin remains as relevant and as true as ever.

[Ultimate Newbie]

That image is pretty accurate indeed . But tbh, i dont see the problem regarding telephone (et al) companies and electronic intellience agencies (like the NSA) colluding. I was under the impression that the NSA had been 'in bed' with (at least american) telcos since the second world war, and most/all new telecommunications technology has been developed with intercepting the transmissions in mind. Thus, to me there is no surprise whatsoever that they are co-operating. I would go so far as to say that its a good thing. Why? well, i dont particularly care about my own electronic privacy much at all - mainly because it is simply a myth, but more fundamentally because what i have on my machine and anyhting that i am sending is absolutely useless to anyone who is listening in. I mean, who really gives a damn about a report on Edgeworth Boxes and their application to welfare economics in accordance with the work of Amartya Sen? Its not overly interesting to me as a student of economics, let alone a signals intelligence unit. Sending emails like 'oi, i'm just informing you that there's a cocktail night on this friday which you will be attending' might perk their interest momentarily, but again who really cares? What does it matter if the message is intercepted/decoded/read? Provided the message gets to where it is going, i'm not fussed.

I dont see why americans (in particular) get so worked up by personal privacy and electronic security. I would have thought a much better place to start would be with civilian arms control (if you forgive the contradiction in terms) in order to improve the life, liberty and freedom of people.

my thoughts, anyway.

Edit: besides, wouldnt AT&T et al be under some "official secrets" directive under the guise of "national security" to keep their relations with the NSA and the information that is exchanged under as much obsfucation as possible?

[Tactitus]

Originally Posted by Androme2

I know its been done to death but...

Gah, it's annoying that Franklin is so frequently misquoted. The correct quote is:

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. [emphasis added]

The misquote equates any liberty with any safety, which is silly. The correct quote is not so foolish or suicidal and properly identifies the fact that both liberty and safety exist on continuous scales. The question is how much liberty we're actually giving up and how much safety we're getting in return.

The privacy concerns in this particular case seem minor. I'm not sure how much expectation of privacy exists for phone records in the first place given that (a) phone companies are third parties and (b) they already leak like sieves (judging from the number of web sites selling phone records :/).

Originally Posted by meglamaniac

It's nice that mainstream media finally picked it up, but the story's been out for around a month now - it started with AT&T allowing the NSA to catch their customer's emails and other traffic, and the phone bit was discovered later.

I believe the NYT first published the story in December of last year; and since the original requests were made shortly after September 11, 2001, it's obvious that a number of people have known about this for nearly five years. I suspect it's been rehashed now (with the accompanying mock outrage) to try to torpedo the nomination of Gen. Hayden as CIA director rather than any particular concern about privacy (Hayden was the director of the NSA in 2001 when the program was first implemented).