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Unread 28 Jun 2007, 12:46   #1
CBA
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Cov Ops

Is it possible for a scanner to hold onto their amps?

for some reason cov ops seem a bit powerful this round,not complaining or anything, it just seems they seem a little over powered, what are others views on this?
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Unread 28 Jun 2007, 12:52   #2
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Re: Cov Ops

Sure it's possible. You'll never have max amps, as you'll have to build security centres, but since dist whores have to as well, that balances out.
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Unread 28 Jun 2007, 12:58   #3
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Re: Cov Ops

yeh but i mean with cov opin you can take out 7 amps in 2 ticks easily:P

just saying that, that CAN happen:P
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Unread 28 Jun 2007, 13:00   #4
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Re: Cov Ops

Ah yeah, but seriously, who goes around with dedicated cov-op teams just to **** up enemy scanners? That's pretty sad if it does happen, in my opinion. I bet it's Jenova!
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Unread 28 Jun 2007, 13:02   #5
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Re: Cov Ops

It's true, but only if your alertness is low. You can pretty much make yourself immune if you build sec centres and put some population into it.

If you're a Dictatorship, it's even easier.
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Unread 28 Jun 2007, 13:53   #6
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Ah yeah, but seriously, who goes around with dedicated cov-op teams just to **** up enemy scanners? That's pretty sad if it does happen, in my opinion. I bet it's Jenova!
sheesh...
why do you even post on boards??

i personally think its a cool idea

pity did not think of it
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Unread 28 Jun 2007, 14:01   #7
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Re: Cov Ops

Oh the irony. It hurts. It hurts so bad.
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Unread 28 Jun 2007, 14:33   #8
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Re: Cov Ops

I heard about one guy, right, and he'd just got to jumpgate probes, right, and he was the first one in the universe with them. Then a bunch of covert oppers reduced all 10 of his amps to rubble so his probes were useless. UNBELIEVABLE! People today, eh?!

I hate those nasty Jenovans!!!!
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Unread 28 Jun 2007, 19:07   #9
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Re: Cov Ops

Tomkat get a clue

first person to uni with JPG firstly would not have 10 amps, secondly the cov ops are not that cleaver and thirdly get another clue pls
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Unread 28 Jun 2007, 19:29   #10
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBA
Tomkat get a clue

first person to uni with JPG firstly would not have 10 amps, secondly the cov ops are not that cleaver and thirdly get another clue pls
You're right. It was only 8 amps
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Unread 28 Jun 2007, 20:55   #11
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomKat
I heard about one guy, right, and he'd just got to jumpgate probes, right, and he was the first one in the universe with them. Then a bunch of covert oppers reduced all 10 of his amps to rubble so his probes were useless. UNBELIEVABLE! People today, eh?!

I hate those nasty Jenovans!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by CBA
Tomkat get a clue

first person to uni with JPG firstly would not have 10 amps, secondly the cov ops are not that cleaver and thirdly get another clue pls
Gotta love sarcasm on the internet.
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Unread 28 Jun 2007, 21:59   #12
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Re: Cov Ops

Tomkat dont play dumb...

and Marv whos being sarcastic
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Unread 28 Jun 2007, 22:56   #13
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Re: Cov Ops

16:2 Ascendancy Covop BP gal.

Clearly another attempt from ascendancy to feck with the game - sadly ill bet we wont see any changes to covoping, even though feudalism was mamed after tick start the most likely outcome will be 0 changes untill next round.

Well thought of asc, a shame you focus on how you can exploit the game... Did you remember to tag them in alliance too or just playing support?
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Unread 28 Jun 2007, 23:01   #14
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBA
Tomkat dont play dumb...

and Marv whos being sarcastic
Well....


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
I heard about one guy, right, and he'd just got to jumpgate probes, right, and he was the first one in the universe with them. Then a bunch of covert oppers reduced all 10 of his amps to rubble so his probes were useless. UNBELIEVABLE! People today, eh?!

I hate those nasty Jenovans!!!!
...I think he might be just a tiny little bit.
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Unread 28 Jun 2007, 23:03   #15
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-
16:2 Ascendancy Covop BP gal.

Clearly another attempt from ascendancy to feck with the game - sadly ill bet we wont see any changes to covoping, even though feudalism was mamed after tick start the most likely outcome will be 0 changes untill next round.

Well thought of asc, a shame you focus on how you can exploit the game... Did you remember to tag them in alliance too or just playing support?
People choose to go scanner for their alliance, how is this any different?

Having alliance cov-op'ers is just the same. If they can seek out and find their competitors for the top spot and hinder them by taking out their scanners, how is that them ruining it?

It's purely another offensive approach players / alliances can take, as opposed to doing it with fleets and SK ships.
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Unread 28 Jun 2007, 23:03   #16
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Re: Cov Ops

Assuming Black Out is 25 agents minimum (correct me if wrong)
[edit]OK so its 15 agents and I made a MAJOR miscalc by forgetting to double the sec centres.[/edit]


Cov Opper with Dictator = 100 + 25% = 125 base stealth.

new_stealth = (old stealth - 5 - int(No_of_agents*0.5) )
new_stealth = (125 - 5 - int( 15 * 0.5)) = 113

random(20) + new_stealth - target_alertness must be higher than 1 for the operation to succeed.
20 + 113 - alertness = 1 (1 or lower is fail, 20 is highest possible random)
alertness = 132

So you need 132 Alertness to 100% stop an Black Out.

Everybody has a base Alertness of 70.
132 / 70 * 100% = 189%

So you need a 89% bonus to alert.


Dictatorship gives 20%
Security Guards give up to 50%
Security Centers give up to 60% (@ 30% Centres)

Options:
Dictatorship + 49% Guards + 10% Centers = 20% + 50% + 20% = 89%
Dictatorship + 9% Guards + 30% Centers = 20% + 9% + 60% = 89%
49% Guards + 20% Centers = 49% + 40% = 89%
29% Guards + 30% Centers = 29% + 60% = 89%



Total Immunity requires 96% bonus (36% Guards + 30% Centers or 50% Guards + 23% Centers)
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Unread 28 Jun 2007, 23:16   #17
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spectator1
Assuming Black Out is 25 agents minimum (correct me if wrong)
15 actually

But you're substantially correct. It is easy to be immune, but you gotta sacrifice a bit.
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Unread 29 Jun 2007, 00:15   #18
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by shibaMac
15 actually

But you're substantially correct. It is easy to be immune, but you gotta sacrifice a bit.
dictatorships + 50% security guards + 30 sec centers! easy!
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Unread 29 Jun 2007, 00:17   #19
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Re: Cov Ops

He's miscalced in several places. You need 138 alert to be immune to all cov ops, 133 to be immune to blackout. For total immunity you need 50% population on security and 24% security centers, or 38% population on security and 30% security centers. For partial immunity it's 50% population on security and 20% security centers, or 30% security centers and 30% population on security. For dictatorship, remove 10% security centers or 20% population, for democracy add 5% security centers or 10% population.

This means you need to assign a substantial part of both your population and constructions to protection against covert operations, especially when you're a scanner or distwhore.

Keeping in mind that 14 full-time cov oppers can prevent an entire alliance from getting constructions (until they figure out they need immunity), and that a single buddypack of cov oppers can keep four alliances from getting scanners with more than 10 amps (or keep them from researching scans at all), I'd say covert operations are rather overpowered this round.

That said, I personally see nothing wrong with an alliance using cov ops in order to gain an edge over the opposition, much like Ascendancy is doing right now, as per the scanner argument used earlier in this thread.

My suggestion (stolen from dec) for next round would be to reduce the stealth boost for planets that choose dictatorship to 15%, and that stealth regeneration should not be influenced by it. This should reduce cov op strength by about 55%, making it strong, but not overpowered.

Meanwhile, I would recommend people to dedicate a little bit more attention to the changes that are being made in between rounds, because the numbers were all there. You could've done the same as us, if only you would've put aside your narrow mindedness for just a moment, and paid attention, rather than play in the only way you seem to be able to: exactly the same way you've been taught to all those rounds ago. Instead you choose to cry and point fingers at the people who do recognise the best strategy, just like last time. Oh. Yes, I'm in 16:2, and no, we're not in the Ascendancy tag.
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Unread 29 Jun 2007, 01:02   #20
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
He's miscalced in several places. You need 138 alert to be immune to all cov ops, 133 to be immune to blackout. For total immunity you need 50% population on security and 24% security centers, or 38% population on security and 30% security centers. For partial immunity it's 50% population on security and 20% security centers, or 30% security centers and 30% population on security. For dictatorship, remove 10% security centers or 20% population, for democracy add 5% security centers or 10% population.

This means you need to assign a substantial part of both your population and constructions to protection against covert operations, especially when you're a scanner or distwhore.

Keeping in mind that 14 full-time cov oppers can prevent an entire alliance from getting constructions (until they figure out they need immunity), and that a single buddypack of cov oppers can keep four alliances from getting scanners with more than 10 amps (or keep them from researching scans at all), I'd say covert operations are rather overpowered this round.

That said, I personally see nothing wrong with an alliance using cov ops in order to gain an edge over the opposition, much like Ascendancy is doing right now, as per the scanner argument used earlier in this thread.

My suggestion (stolen from dec) for next round would be to reduce the stealth boost for planets that choose dictatorship to 15%, and that stealth regeneration should not be influenced by it. This should reduce cov op strength by about 55%, making it strong, but not overpowered.

Meanwhile, I would recommend people to dedicate a little bit more attention to the changes that are being made in between rounds, because the numbers were all there. You could've done the same as us, if only you would've put aside your narrow mindedness for just a moment, and paid attention, rather than play in the only way you seem to be able to: exactly the same way you've been taught to all those rounds ago. Instead you choose to cry and point fingers at the people who do recognise the best strategy, just like last time. Oh. Yes, I'm in 16:2, and no, we're not in the Ascendancy tag.
no, but you are in Descendancy tag.. gee. wonder what that is about.

But I have to admire that you guys have found another rather huge loophole to abuse and make the game less fun for the people you mess up for, I did warn the pa team about the strength of cov-ops this round however it wasn't possible to get anything done with it.

I did a few calculations about the cov-ops myself, but didnt see the goverment loophole so the cov-ops was infact even worse than I thought. But again, its fully legal, just nobody else than ur merry band that thought about it.

I do question though the creation of planets built for solely destroy others fun in the round, but I guess since everybody can do it its fully allowed yet sadly despicable.

Good luck with your utterly senseless round though! Im sure someone will thank you for your efforts
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Unread 29 Jun 2007, 01:38   #21
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Re: Cov Ops

Oh wait, I thought I played a war game! You know, where you attack and steal and destroy and other nasty stuff. Maybe I was wrong and need another game, Sim Planet never was my style
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Unread 29 Jun 2007, 02:00   #22
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snurx
Oh wait, I thought I played a war game! You know, where you attack and steal and destroy and other nasty stuff. Maybe I was wrong and need another game, Sim Planet never was my style
Technically Planetarion has the title space themed game. So no, its not a wargame, atleast thats what the manual says
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Unread 29 Jun 2007, 04:11   #23
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Re: Cov Ops

Achillies , Tomkat stop the propaganda :P

The cov gal in question definetly has a nasty evil plan which involves taking out all scanners in game and then res hacking their way to a gal win , reminiscent of last round. I know this because dec was silly enough to message one of our scanners ingame his plans:


xxxxxxxx (16:x:x) No Subject Specified Thu, 28 Jun 20:21
sry but i cant let a scanner get sec centers....
.dec


xxxxxxxx (16:x:x) No Subject Specified Thu, 28 Jun 21:01
well every scanner on dict will be a cov opper as soon as the scan researches are done... bank hacking is a nice source of income for a scanner... at the same time all cov oppers will be scanners later on so its really just a question of what you start with (am through with cov ops researching unit scans atm....)
as for the roid thingy - if you get 80k each from cov ops why should you go for 20k each with 200 roids ^^ we bank hacked some time to fill up our gal fund and as soon as its empty we will do that again.... in fact regarding the cov oppers income it wouldve been a nice strategy to have 5 devoted bankhackers in a gal, gather those 25M res asap, donate it to one guy and that one has a huge lead in value ^^ if he hides it in the production that can even be stacked as long as cov op gets you more money than roids....
would b fun and if it doesnt get changed i might try it next round but im rather positive that cov ops gets nerfed after the round

anyways gl in your round
.dec




WAY TO PLAY THE GAME :P
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Unread 29 Jun 2007, 06:24   #24
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Re: Cov Ops

Even in the little games of infants, people win by usage of a) muscles or b) brain.
I always find it fascinating how ppl complain about others, while they're practically nothing but jealous that somebody found a legal gap in the game to make best use of, which they were not aware of.
But isnt that one of the things that makes a deserved winner? Tell me one good reason, why it isnt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
I do question though the creation of planets built for solely destroy others fun in the round
Who says/said that? Your reluctance towards asc makes you look funny over and over tbh, because you are just not reasonable and always remind ppl of that pointing and shouting guys in the sandpit because somebody "stole their scoop".
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Unread 29 Jun 2007, 07:06   #25
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Re: Cov Ops

it's funny how they can hoard resources worth millions in value by the end of the round just with bank hacking, and still be added to the tag because of low score (most likely under t10 average because of no roids/ships) giving said tag a good boost on the last day, and nobody can do ANYTHING about it

pld
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Unread 29 Jun 2007, 08:00   #26
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rinoa
xxxxxxxx (16:x:x) No Subject Specified Thu, 28 Jun 20:21
sry but i cant let a scanner get sec centers....
.dec
That's really the scanner's fault. One should have built security centers in the first place, anticipating the issue. With 30% or so in security centers, and a decent share in population, you can be effectively immune.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rinoa
WAY TO PLAY THE GAME :P
Admitted, the power of covert operations may just be over the top. Wonder when someone comes up with an all-covert-op alliance?
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Unread 29 Jun 2007, 08:12   #27
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coltaine
Even in the little games of infants, people win by usage of a) muscles or b) brain.
I always find it fascinating how ppl complain about others, while they're practically nothing but jealous that somebody found a legal gap in the game to make best use of, which they were not aware of.
But isnt that one of the things that makes a deserved winner? Tell me one good reason, why it isnt.

As I made clear in my initial post, I was aware of the "gap" and I pointed it out to the pa team. I decided not to use it because it goes against the spirit of fairplay. You may call me gullible or soft hearted. Being jealous on some people who are using loopholes in the rules to win a game?
Get a grip.
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Unread 29 Jun 2007, 08:55   #28
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Oh. Yes, I'm in 16:2, and no, we're not in the Ascendancy tag.
So you guys are technically in Ascendancy, but in another tag? Helping Ascendancy by killing the scanners of the other alliances amoung things.. One could say you're supporting Ascendacy... Support rule?
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Unread 29 Jun 2007, 09:07   #29
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Re: Cov Ops

I'm angry at this, very angry....why didn't I think of it first? and second, why didn't I get recriuted?
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Unread 29 Jun 2007, 09:20   #30
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by paolo
So you guys are technically in Ascendancy, but in another tag? Helping Ascendancy by killing the scanners of the other alliances amoung things.. One could say you're supporting Ascendacy... Support rule?
Actually, *scendancy are just napped. Most of the time we pick our own targets. Besides, it's been cleared with the multihunters beforehand, so your argument doesn't hold.
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Unread 29 Jun 2007, 09:25   #31
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Actually, *scendancy are just napped. Most of the time we pick our own targets. Besides, it's been cleared with the multihunters beforehand, so your argument doesn't hold.
lol so fiery allowed you to make a support alliance with the one purpose of putting in all your covoppers and to follow ascendancy goals - well done fiery...

I dont think i need to write anything else, i am quite sure people can guess what my next lines would have been.
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Unread 29 Jun 2007, 09:48   #32
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-
lol so fiery allowed you to make a support alliance with the one purpose of putting in all your covoppers and to follow ascendancy goals - well done fiery...

I dont think i need to write anything else, i am quite sure people can guess what my next lines would have been.
Did you even read my post, or did you just not bother, preferring to troll a bit?
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 29 Jun 2007, 09:57   #33
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Re: Cov Ops

Lets see an alliance consisting for a large part of "former" Ascendancy members scanning and covopping based on Ascendancy interests - Thats a support alliance in my book. doesnt matter if you attack or defend them its stil a clear breach of the pa rules.
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Unread 29 Jun 2007, 10:01   #34
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-
Lets see an alliance consisting for a large part of "former" Ascendancy members scanning and covopping based on Ascendancy interests - Thats a support alliance in my book. doesnt matter if you attack or defend them its stil a clear breach of the pa rules.
You do realize just how much in vain posting this is? It's not the first time an alliance goes past the memberlimits, in fact, it has been repeated all over again. Nothing will be done about it. I'm in fact unsure of the current support rule format. Many would, and could argue that for example Wolfpack carried more than it's allowance in members last round, many already claim Jenova carries more than what it's supposed to. 1up definately had more than it's allowance round 17, and the list goes on.

Live with it. I've learned!
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Unread 29 Jun 2007, 11:05   #35
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-
Thats a support alliance in my book.
Then for our sake, I'm glad your book is not the relevant one. The issue was presented to the multihunters by JBG, and we got the green light, that's all I care about.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 29 Jun 2007, 11:10   #36
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Then for our sake, I'm glad your book is not the relevant one. The issue was presented to the multihunters by JBG, and we got the green light, that's all I care about.
If anything this only proves how obtuse the multihunters are.
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Unread 29 Jun 2007, 11:15   #37
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Re: Cov Ops

Did noone bother to think that just maybe Decendancy aren't following 'Ascendancy goals' but instead are a bunch of people who maybe think its fun to cov-op ppl?

I know i sure as hell wish i thought about it, i would be doing it too. sounds like a laugh to me

This is a game, if its within the rules and its fun... do it? that is sorta the point of a game isn't it?
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Unread 29 Jun 2007, 11:17   #38
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniMoose
Did noone bother to think that just maybe Decendancy aren't following 'Ascendancy goals' but instead are a bunch of people who maybe think its fun to cov-op ppl?

I know i sure as hell wish i thought about it, i would be doing it too. sounds like a laugh to me

This is a game, if its within the rules and its fun... do it? that is sorta the point of a game isn't it?
Just reset your planet and go cath, there is nothing stopping you in doing it..
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Unread 29 Jun 2007, 11:20   #39
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Re: Cov Ops

I would certainly recommend it, it seems it's the best way to contribute to your alliance this round!
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 29 Jun 2007, 11:21   #40
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
I would certainly recommend it, it seems it's the best way to contribute to your alliance this round!
Im sure Jester appreciates your efforts for Descendancy and that your efforts will bring Descendancy to higher levels!
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Unread 29 Jun 2007, 11:21   #41
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Re: Cov Ops

getting covopped:

6 amps + 6 jammers blown up in one go by only 60 agents.

12 constructions * 9 hours building time = 108 ticks in planetarion wasted.

You lot actualy think this way of covert opping is going to keep planetarion alive? Any new player that comes to planetarion and gets hammered like that will instandly quit the game reducing the player base even more then it should be.

And just saying "we found a loophole" and explore it because according to you its within the rules is like thinking with your wrong head. You might have some fun but in the end tweaks will be made for next rounds to stop it from ever happening again. But those players wont return. Making your next rounds less and less fun.

So far there's alot of things happening - Even Appoco, whom I spoke to about this subject said they were currently looking into this. As you can see that game admins also don't want to lose possible new planetarion addicts/players.

However, if you're ignorance to the playerbase 'dropping and dropping' each round then why on earth are you still playing planetarion? Ask appoco or mh's to close your planet right away because you wont do the game and its community any good anyways - no matter what alliance you are in.

Just my two penny.
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Unread 29 Jun 2007, 11:26   #42
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndroX

And just saying "we found a loophole" and explore it because according to you its within the rules is like thinking with your wrong head. You might have some fun but in the end tweaks will be made for next rounds to stop it from ever happening again. But those players wont return. Making your next rounds less and less fun.

So far there's alot of things happening - Even Appoco, whom I spoke to about this subject said they were currently looking into this. As you can see that game admins also don't want to lose possible new planetarion addicts/players.

However, if you're ignorance to the playerbase 'dropping and dropping' each round then why on earth are you still playing planetarion? Ask appoco or mh's to close your planet right away because you wont do the game and its community any good anyways - no matter what alliance you are in.

Just my two penny.
I wholeheartedly agree with you.
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Unread 29 Jun 2007, 11:53   #43
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Re: Cov Ops

I'll explain briefly. At the end of last round ascendancy was around about 70 members. We had some recruitment between rounds of people who wanted to play the ascendancy way, no officers, no rules, no chumps. As such I set up descendancy, after a few brief words with a couple of others. Descendancy is not a covert-op alliance, I'm in it and I haven't researched cov-ops or scans or anything yet. I believe a few others are in similar positions. As always with the ascendancy way of doing things there are no limitations beyond ingame restrictions on what you can and cannot do.

Considering the apparent widespread dislike for ascendancy and the ascendancy way of playing I decided it'd be nice for descendancy and ascendancy to co-operate for the round. We have no intention of being a support alliance for anyone and to my knowledge no def fleets have gone from one tag to the other nor are ascendancy planets in any way favoured. I'm aware this is a contentious issue so pre-round I talked it through briefly with fiery and, considering the fact issues may arise later we were able to agree that if we somehow did cross the "line" in an as yet unforeseen way we'd be informed by the multihunters what was wrong.

On a personal note I feel this highlights some deficiencies in the way alliance limits work. We have some players this round who I severely doubt would be playing if they weren't able to play in either descendancy or ascendancy. Do we really want to push those people away in future?

Similarly to kargool I'd like to big myself up for requesting construction times be moved down this round as has rather clearly be shown to be a good idea.

Incidentally there are no assigned goals or anything. Hell there wouldn't be assigned goals if there was only one tag.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Androx
You lot actualy think this way of covert opping is going to keep planetarion alive? Any new player that comes to planetarion and gets hammered like that will instandly quit the game reducing the player base even more then it should be.
yeah, all those new players going scanner and in the t30...
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Unread 29 Jun 2007, 11:53   #44
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Re: Cov Ops

Tbh what Ascendancy have done is not the problem, its that the admins have allowed this to be used/abused, If the round restarted today with same stats etc i would of gone down the same route, seems fun...
but with AndroX point about playerbase into consideration i really think that is the PA Admins fault.....

Its up to the admin to make this game better, all the players can do is suggest, if the admin dont wanna do anything then abuse will happen every round and every round more player will leave.
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Unread 29 Jun 2007, 11:54   #45
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndroX
getting covopped:

6 amps + 6 jammers blown up in one go by only 60 agents.

12 constructions * 9 hours building time = 108 ticks in planetarion wasted.
60 agents can only (or 'only') kill 4 amps and 4 dists, fyi. Also, you've dont nothing but build constructions during those 108 ticks? No research, no initing, no roiding? "Wasted" is an exaggeration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndroX
You lot actualy think this way of covert opping is going to keep planetarion alive? Any new player that comes to planetarion and gets hammered like that will instandly quit the game reducing the player base even more then it should be.
We have nothing to gain by attacking new players, our preferred targets are 1) scanners, 2) distwhores, 3) people who attack our gal.

Jesus, how often do I have to say it before it gets through to you (general you): build ****ing SCs! Don't give us a chance to destroy you. I've made scan planets lose all their amps, after which they happily resumed building them, without learning anything from the previous time. Sorry, but I cba to feel pity for idiots.
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Unread 29 Jun 2007, 12:01   #46
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I'll explain briefly. At the end of last round ascendancy was around about 70 members. We had some recruitment between rounds of people who wanted to play the ascendancy way, no officers, no rules, no chumps. As such I set up descendancy, after a few brief words with a couple of others. Descendancy is not a covert-op alliance, I'm in it and I haven't researched cov-ops or scans or anything yet. I believe a few others are in similar positions. As always with the ascendancy way of doing things there are no limitations beyond ingame restrictions on what you can and cannot do.

Considering the apparent widespread dislike for ascendancy and the ascendancy way of playing I decided it'd be nice for descendancy and ascendancy to co-operate for the round. We have no intention of being a support alliance for anyone and to my knowledge no def fleets have gone from one tag to the other nor are ascendancy planets in any way favoured. I'm aware this is a contentious issue so pre-round I talked it through briefly with fiery and, considering the fact issues may arise later we were able to agree that if we somehow did cross the "line" in an as yet unforeseen way we'd be informed by the multihunters what was wrong.

On a personal note I feel this highlights some deficiencies in the way alliance limits work. We have some players this round who I severely doubt would be playing if they weren't able to play in either descendancy or ascendancy. Do we really want to push those people away in future?
There were other routes of solution you could have chosen, you could have tried to advocate increasing the alliance limits for example.

When people disagree with each others, sometimes a compromise is better than being adamant in your own conviction. Its called negotiating.
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Unread 29 Jun 2007, 12:06   #47
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
There were other routes of solution you could have chosen, you could have tried to advocate increasing the alliance limits for example.
And spent my time arguing with people like you? No thanks. My problem is with the existence of alliance limits at all. The actual extent to which various people think they should exist is just so much pointlessness to me.
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Unread 29 Jun 2007, 12:21   #48
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Re: Cov Ops

But JBG, changes come in small steps. Start by making the ally limit 80, then 100, then 150, then, when (or if) people see you're right, propose their removal. You should meet a lot less resistance that way.
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Unread 29 Jun 2007, 12:26   #49
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Re: Cov Ops

I personally do not see a huge problem with all this. I might be responsible for a part as i suggested quite an increase in the effectiveness of the covert op government. I think its a good thing, as covert ops in the past were quite useless and weak. The increase of the stealth and alert bonus from Dictatorship would make covert ops a more viable way of playing compared to the normal combat (and i'm in favour of having more ways to play the game than just the combat thing), while at the same time making it a choice that can somewhat compete with the advantages of the other governments (more income/lower ship cost). This may be the first round where covert ops is actually a nice option, and despite me not using them and being annoyed by their use on my planet, i think that it is good.

But this doesn't really change the fact that covert ops are quite impossible to balance in PA (in their current form). I think the 0 roid cov op planets prove that it is a problem that there are no limits to who you can hit with covert ops, and that the damage is always maxed out when you get through. It might be better if in the future covert op damage would be decided on relative value/score between involved planets combined with the security/stealth/agents ratings. I.e. max damage up to double and half your own value/score, and after that the damage decreases (somewhat of a dynamic bash limit). Next to that security settings, although not preventing the hit, might decrease the damage. As currently its insane that tiny planets are able to hit the biggest planets without any worry whatsoever. Perhaps trained agents (like ships) that need to be recruited and can be killed aswell might balance this out better, but that would require alot of recoding :-).
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Unread 29 Jun 2007, 12:30   #50
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
But JBG, changes come in small steps. Start by making the ally limit 80, then 100, then 150, then, when (or if) people see you're right, propose their removal. You should meet a lot less resistance that way.
I'd far rather ensure everyone who wants to play the ascendancy way will get to. Frankly I imagine this probably keeps more players in the game.

Anyways as I said I genuinely wouldn't enjoy having to argue for this. It's far easier to let history prove me right or wrong. A lot of people seem to want to play a different game to me anyways so I really don't see the point in arguing with them. We have a fundamentally different paradigmatic approach.
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