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Unread 4 Mar 2011, 23:39   #1
galla
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Time to make donations legal?

Is it time to make donations legal? Yes is clearly the answer. The admins have demonstrated no inclination to deal with people blatantly breaking this rule and it leaves a sour taste for those who lose out by playing fairly whilst others benefit from cheating.

The admins are seen as so toothless on this issue that players don't even disguise their intentions, naming fleets Donation fleets is a joke and if Appocco hasn't got the self respect to stop people taking the piss out of the admins then maybe its time to just remove the rule.

Thoughts please.....
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Unread 4 Mar 2011, 23:50   #2
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Re: Time to make donations legal?

Assassin Multihunting again....
He didn't give a flying xxxx who he closed.
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Unread 5 Mar 2011, 00:43   #3
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Re: Time to make donations legal?

Unenforceable rules are and always have been retarded.
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Unread 5 Mar 2011, 02:14   #4
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Re: Time to make donations legal?

Oh yes a planet that was far behind me suddenly gained some millions in score on the last day due to mysterious incs that crahsed on him. All coincidence I think...
This is real lame as you admit to yourselves you couldn't get the rank by honest playing. MHs should maybe open their fking eyes and stop caring so much about fleet names but rather focus in real issues.

Again, replace Ace, he's a disgrace to the title head multihunter.
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Unread 5 Mar 2011, 04:12   #5
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Re: Time to make donations legal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Korsan View Post
Again, replace Ace, he's a disgrace to the title head multihunter.
Amen
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Unread 5 Mar 2011, 10:04   #6
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Re: Time to make donations legal?

Just remove salvage, and introduce some other bonus for defenders (like increased armor/damage/etc). Problem solved.
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Unread 5 Mar 2011, 10:13   #7
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Re: Time to make donations legal?

I must admit I deliberately suicided my fleet onto someone this round to see what would happen. I sent my entire fleet, split into three, at a friend of mine in the second ranked galaxy, launching at 7pm with the fleet names "read the gal name and will comply" (when the gal name was donations plz or something) and I couldn't roid him unless his entire fleet was out (which it wasn't). The attack landed and he gained the salvage as far as I could see. So, unless the multihunters are only closing people who actually message each other ingame about farming, I really don't know what the **** the point is of saying donations are illegal.
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Unread 5 Mar 2011, 10:39   #8
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Re: Time to make donations legal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
I must admit I deliberately suicided my fleet onto someone this round to see what would happen. I sent my entire fleet, split into three, at a friend of mine in the second ranked galaxy, launching at 7pm with the fleet names "read the gal name and will comply" (when the gal name was donations plz or something) and I couldn't roid him unless his entire fleet was out (which it wasn't). The attack landed and he gained the salvage as far as I could see. So, unless the multihunters are only closing people who actually message each other ingame about farming, I really don't know what the **** the point is of saying donations are illegal.
Ive crashed my entire fleet on the last day for about 4 rounds (this round i didnt bother), Never been closed. Its impossible to know whats a real attack and whats a screw up; The only difference is that its the last week/day.
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Unread 5 Mar 2011, 10:49   #9
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Re: Time to make donations legal?

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Originally Posted by ruxu View Post
Just remove salvage, and introduce some other bonus for defenders (like increased armor/damage/etc). Problem solved.
I wouldn't have a problem with ships having seperate attack and defence stats
The question is would that make it too complicated for new players?
(open question to those who have only played a round or so)


Back to the point this is what happens when there is a lack of enforcement
Whilst most would have the decency not to take part in salvage donations.
There are those who have no problems with it.
Multihunters need to step up to the mark and take (maybe more) action.

You always question the Motive of the attack.
Recall fleets / close planets in question
If they can't produce a Viable arguement for attacking

But in No way endorse this cheating because some see this as "Unenforceable" (who surprise surprise have no problems with salvage donating and don't have the vision to realise they are degrading the game) just get better Multihunters.
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Unread 5 Mar 2011, 11:10   #10
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Re: Time to make donations legal?

All ships turn EMP the last day of the round

Simples :P
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Unread 5 Mar 2011, 11:33   #11
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Re: Time to make donations legal?

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Originally Posted by Kargool View Post
All ships turn EMP the last day of the round

Simples :P
Would take away lot of the last day fun and crashing though
Besided obvious donations offcourse
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Unread 5 Mar 2011, 11:46   #12
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Re: Time to make donations legal?

Also something about moving the problem a day backwards.
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Unread 5 Mar 2011, 12:08   #13
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Re: Time to make donations legal?

I don't understand why any effort is made to prevent cheating in PA.
Given the loopholes which are inherent in the design of the game I would say that it is a waste of time.
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Unread 5 Mar 2011, 12:17   #14
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Re: Time to make donations legal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
Assassin Multihunting again....
He didn't give a flying xxxx who he closed.
Dont think the rest of the PA community would agree with you tbh.

And amusingly i did apply back to the MH Department (had a small interview with Ace) which was back in July/Auguest i beleive due to i was just moving into my flat and didnt have internet so im guessing it was around that date. Was told my interview was posted on the MH forum and of course id hear of them later on if it was a yes or a no. Im still waiting... so i guess it was a no.
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Unread 5 Mar 2011, 21:00   #15
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Re: Time to make donations legal?

Ace has to go. He's completely incapable to do this job. He has proven this more than once.

Solutions like removing salvage on last week of the round which by far is the easiest way to prevent donations would be helping but hey, you have to actually want a fair pa game in order to do this.
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Unread 5 Mar 2011, 22:08   #16
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Re: Time to make donations legal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
Its impossible to know whats a real attack and whats a screw up;
actually anyone with a bit of common sense would know that if an attack is launched that has no chance whatsoever of landing against their targets fleet then its obviously a donation and anyone who claims otherwise is just too retarded for words to describe
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Unread 6 Mar 2011, 03:31   #17
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Re: Time to make donations legal?

Why not just instead make it so people cant LEECH the salvage thats gained. Because most of this problem is top planets get waved and have emp/steal or what ever ships come defend them and then they just leave there untargeted ships home and leech up the salvage. I know it wouldnt solve the problem but it would help. Just make it so you only get salvage off YOUR ship loss and the ships yours kill/steal not what everyone else's.


And as for Donations Just remove salvage the last week like with vacation mode. Its not really an issue up until then as people are less likly to want to crash if theres a good part of the round left.
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Unread 6 Mar 2011, 06:27   #18
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Re: Time to make donations legal?

regardless of if you agree with his methods, (keep in mind that I don't know very much about what exactly the multi-hunters do past a brief description, or what kind of tools they work with) Ace is a good guy, and he does his work with the best intentions of providing a fair gaming environment for everyone playing PA, and he does this and doesn't get a dime for it, just provides his time and effort....so get off his ass, unless you want to get in there, roll your sleeves up and help him and his team out. It is completely freakin irritating watching people bitch moan and complain when they don't have the slightest intention of actually being part of the solution instead of bitching about the problem. If things are broke, and you have a good idea that will help fix things, then make the damned suggestion, or stfu.
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Unread 6 Mar 2011, 08:24   #19
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Re: Time to make donations legal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aNgRyDuCk View Post
regardless of if you agree with his methods, (keep in mind that I don't know very much about what exactly the multi-hunters do past a brief description, or what kind of tools they work with) Ace is a good guy, and he does his work with the best intentions of providing a fair gaming environment for everyone playing PA, and he does this and doesn't get a dime for it, just provides his time and effort....so get off his ass, unless you want to get in there oll your sleeves up and help him and his team out. It is completely freakin irritating watching people bitch moan and complain when they don't have the slightest intention of actually being part of the solution instead of bitching about the problem. If things are broke, and you have a good idea that will help fix things, then make the damned suggestion, or stfu.
I do agree that Multi-hunting is a thankless role within PA.
Ace conducts himself in a good manner and found him quite approachable however...
What Ace reminds me of is the Stand in / Sub teacher that some of the pupils would rip the pish out of in class... because you can get away with it without reprisals as evident by some of the class clowns we have in PA.

What springs to mind is something along these lines
For those who haven't seen chewing the fat which is a Scottish comedy TV programme with the sketch with the teacher....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHSDg0FKJjE
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Unread 6 Mar 2011, 09:52   #20
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Re: Time to make donations legal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aNgRyDuCk View Post
regardless of if you agree with his methods, (keep in mind that I don't know very much about what exactly the multi-hunters do past a brief description, or what kind of tools they work with) Ace is a good guy, and he does his work with the best intentions of providing a fair gaming environment for everyone playing PA, and he does this and doesn't get a dime for it, just provides his time and effort....so get off his ass, unless you want to get in there oll your sleeves up and help him and his team out. It is completely freakin irritating watching people bitch moan and complain when they don't have the slightest intention of actually being part of the solution instead of bitching about the problem. If things are broke, and you have a good idea that will help fix things, then make the damned suggestion, or stfu.
I have nothing against Ace. Tbh ive always found him, an ok guy. Think we have clashed a few times just due to we are of the same temperment/stubbon ness. However, I have been the MH Manager before. I also of course as i mentioned above re-applyed to try and help the MH Team and become a MH under Ace... people didnt even bother to get back to me which i see as bad communication. Even after a pm with appoco a few months after i had applied lead with Appoco saying somthing along the lines off 'Oh i cant comment im afraid.. but he is busy at the momeny probably hasnt got round to speaking to you' er huh.

The problem doesnt just revolve around Ace (however he does run the team/chose the MHs). The whole point of this thread was to (once again) point out there is no longer any consistancy in the policing of the rules. For instance, i reported a planet name which was blatently offencive last round (its used as an insult in this country tbh) and butters reply was: 'lol i find that quite funny tbh and in my country it isnt offencive' pardon? So just becuase butter doesnt deem it offencive this means its fine? She warned somone 2 rounds ago over a planet name/fleet name which when you googled it was a type of duck. This to me shows arrogence, or lack of common sense.

But this has been happening a lot latley. And i do beleive the MHs are scared to actually take action against the 'bigger planets' which are causing offences. As we have saw in this thread alone around 4/5 people who are well known in the community have admitted to blatenly crashing. Why didnt any of the MH Team spot these? As itsbeen mentioned above already anyone with common sense can tell once a fleet is launched its never going to gain anything from landing and will only crash (heck even a dc with a bcalc could tell you this and they have much better tools then we do) Even if they of course allowed the planet to land, then removed all the salavge/fleets gained from the planet they landed on and closed the planet who crashed that would of course be taking action as they would have their evidence (ie after the incident) but anyway... ive said my bit. I dislike speaking of the MH team (or PA Team) in a negative mannor but ive experienced nothing possative to say in the past 10 rounds.
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Unread 6 Mar 2011, 13:44   #21
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Re: Time to make donations legal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Korsan View Post
Ace has to go. He's completely incapable to do this job. He has proven this more than once.

Solutions like removing salvage on last week of the round which by far is the easiest way to prevent donations would be helping but hey, you have to actually want a fair pa game in order to do this.
Maybe just cap salvage in the last week, so you cant gain more than 10% or something.

With the people who play PA, me included i would have no problems if my round had gone wrong just playing complete chicken in the last week to screw up other people.

Xan on Xan, no defending salvage? hah. You cant take away salvage all together but maybe limit how much that can be gained from it. At the same time you need defenders to be rewarded as well.
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Unread 6 Mar 2011, 20:36   #22
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Re: Time to make donations legal?

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Maybe just cap salvage in the last week, so you cant gain more than 10% or something.

With the people who play PA, me included i would have no problems if my round had gone wrong just playing complete chicken in the last week to screw up other people.

Xan on Xan, no defending salvage? hah. You cant take away salvage all together but maybe limit how much that can be gained from it. At the same time you need defenders to be rewarded as well.
yeah the xan vs xan thing is correct.
But even that can be easily tweaked. If you're on defender side you just get salvage for lost defender ships, same if you are on attacker side.

Shouldn't be too hard really.
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Unread 6 Mar 2011, 21:18   #23
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Re: Time to make donations legal?

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Originally Posted by Korsan View Post
yeah the xan vs xan thing is correct.
But even that can be easily tweaked. If you're on defender side you just get salvage for lost defender ships, same if you are on attacker side.

Shouldn't be too hard really.
So in the last week, when people are more willing to land for high losses because xp's utility as score is higher, you want to make it harder to defend? I see.
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Unread 6 Mar 2011, 21:51   #24
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Re: Time to make donations legal?

Just make it so salvage is capped at 100% of defenders losses for the last week. So defence can still defend as usual and not lose value, while people cant donate.
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Unread 6 Mar 2011, 22:02   #25
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Re: Time to make donations legal?

That's a gay as hell solution but it'd probably be a relatively decent stopgap measure.
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Unread 6 Mar 2011, 23:12   #26
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Re: Time to make donations legal?

just calc the attackers fleet against the defenders if it has no hope of landing its a donation and recall attack and close attacker
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Unread 6 Mar 2011, 23:39   #27
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Re: Time to make donations legal?

Doesn't work, all you'd need to do is launch additional fleets for a couple of ticks and you could claim you didn't know you'd be "landing" solo.
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Unread 7 Mar 2011, 09:02   #28
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Re: Time to make donations legal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
Just make it so salvage is capped at 100% of defenders losses for the last week. So defence can still defend as usual and not lose value, while people cant donate.
I am not entirely sure if you describe what i had in mind. I have been thinking about donation prevention last week too. My idea was (i think you meant the same here) to make sure that any salvage produced cannot be more then the losses the defenders take. This would have to be calculated for each individual defender. A defender who loses 100k value (in ships), can only get 100k value worth of salvage. Any excess salvage is lost.

I think this would have the least impact on battle: defenders wont lose value (if the incoming is sufficently covered), while attackers still lose the same amount of value. In most cases, there is no need to send more defense then in the old system.

As for the multihunter aspect of this thread: knowing someone cheats is not the same as proving it. If you want the Multihunter able to stop cheaters, you would have to remove or lessen the need for 100% proof, and accept logic as reason for closing a planet. This would certainly give the MH department more fighting power, but would also introduce more mistakes.

Assassin, have you done an inquiry about the status of your application? I would love to see you or other current players to enter MH team! Why? Simply because since i rejoined the playerbase, I doscovered that in 18 rounds of MH-ing, I had lost the touch with the playing community a bit. Current MHs all suffer from the same problem: they don't really know how it is out there. Any MH should be forced to play at least one round for each 2 round they MH (just an example), to keep the feel. I know I would have done some things differently for sure !
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Unread 7 Mar 2011, 09:29   #29
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Re: Time to make donations legal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remy View Post
I am not entirely sure if you describe what i had in mind. I have been thinking about donation prevention last week too. My idea was (i think you meant the same here) to make sure that any salvage produced cannot be more then the losses the defenders take. This would have to be calculated for each individual defender. A defender who loses 100k value (in ships), can only get 100k value worth of salvage. Any excess salvage is lost.

I think this would have the least impact on battle: defenders wont lose value (if the incoming is sufficently covered), while attackers still lose the same amount of value. In most cases, there is no need to send more defense then in the old system.
Looks like a similar story to the out of tag, out of gal def aka "support planets"
I totally put the blame squarely at those who salvage donate if the above gets implemented.
Again if you defuse the incentive to salvage donate via ingame mechanics then so be it.
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Unread 7 Mar 2011, 20:44   #30
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Re: Time to make donations legal?

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Originally Posted by Remy View Post
Assassin, have you done an inquiry about the status of your application? I would love to see you or other current players to enter MH team! Why? Simply because since i rejoined the playerbase, I doscovered that in 18 rounds of MH-ing, I had lost the touch with the playing community a bit. Current MHs all suffer from the same problem: they don't really know how it is out there. Any MH should be forced to play at least one round for each 2 round they MH (just an example), to keep the feel. I know I would have done some things differently for sure !
In reply no. I did of course speak to Appoco a couple of months after but that was about all i inquired. And yes i understand what you mean. I had the pleasure of returning to the MH manager position once after of course stepping down Previously as the MH Manager just for the one round while the PA Team could fine a sufficient replacement.. and i do understand what you mean.
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Unread 17 Mar 2011, 11:58   #31
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Re: Time to make donations legal?

There is no single point of blame for the lack of rules enforcement but i would surmise that the problem is two fold

1) the current MH simply do not have the time to do the job they said they could do. I mean it must take a fair amount of time to conclusively prove someone has cheated in such a way that they can not argue with it. Im sure most of the player base has found out that as they grew older perhaps they had less time for PA im sure its similar for the MH their lives are probably busier then when they first got the job.

2) Due to a lack of people signing up to be MH's the current staff are not prepared to leave their role due to a feeling that there will be no one left at all even though as i said in point one it appears they do not have the time to MH.

Also im not sure if a battle calc showing that there is no chance of landing can be taken as 100% proof of cheating it clearly suggests cheating but i doubt it is evidence enough. However removing the 100% evidence thing could cause problems. Perhaps remove it and put it to a MH vote if say 3/4 of the MH team vote to close without all the evidence then the planet is closed by virtue of common sense. (then again im not too sure how the MH team actually decides who to close)
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Unread 26 Mar 2011, 14:27   #32
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Re: Time to make donations legal?

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Originally Posted by gzambo View Post
just calc the attackers fleet against the defenders if it has no hope of landing its a donation and recall attack and close attacker

There is also the issue of sending an attack to keep a planets fleets grounded, or part of them to stop in-gal defence or cross defence of another allied planet.

Not all attacks are intended to land, they may well be a diversion.
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Unread 26 Mar 2011, 15:26   #33
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Re: Time to make donations legal?

Thats the problem. As a big planet late game, retards can send on you out of the blue. If they land people will yell CHEAT! DONATION! etc but you still have to keep your fleet home to cover vs it. This has happened to me quite some times, and I ve gone to MHs at eta 6-7 and asked them to get the attacker closed / recalled. They then refuse to do this cause he hasnt done anything wrong yet. So I m forced to keep fleets home for 6-7 hours, ****ing my planned attacks and whatnot. I then cap all of his fleet, cause clearly he couldnt land and I get massive gains, but then the MHs go and remove the fleet and the salvage... Thats just fking great isnt it?

This is a rule which is impossible to enforce. You might find the most obvious ones, but if you want to donate, and put some effort into it, you get away with it. That being said, I still dont think you can remove it.
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Unread 26 Mar 2011, 18:29   #34
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Re: Time to make donations legal?

The same type of thing is happening in the NHL right now. Head hits vs clean hits still resulting in players being hurt. The nhl can't change the way the game is played to stop people from hitting. However they have talked about making it the teams/coaches fault also. With a rule like donations we're in the same boat. It's not a easy fix. Not without changing the way the game itself is played.
This being said it really should simply come down to the players in question. Donations to players THEY wish to win vs players that are running for first. It's wrong and it's not up to you to push someone else to win. It comes down to us as players to take this out of pa.
Just have respect for people. Weather they never got hit all round or they don't deserve to win. HIT THEM don't donate 1mil value to the #2 planet instead. Someone will just donate to the other guy the next night.
Simply put GROW UP, use your head and fight to win. Don't cheat.
We can fix this. If someone in your alliance is cheating ask hc to remove them. If your hc are involved. Leave the alliance. Play somewhere that is supporting the RIGHT way to play pa. It's only killing pa to support such things.
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Unread 27 Mar 2011, 12:33   #35
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Re: Time to make donations legal?

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Originally Posted by Korsan View Post
Again, replace Ace, he's a disgrace to the title head multihunter.
Here here, I have had many dealings with him, I can even pull out some lol logs of Cronix and I showing him the blatancy of this one crash in particular, the fleet name was even called donations ffs and yet, no further action taken
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Unread 27 Mar 2011, 12:37   #36
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Re: Time to make donations legal?

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
I must admit I deliberately suicided my fleet onto someone this round to see what would happen. I sent my entire fleet, split into three, at a friend of mine in the second ranked galaxy, launching at 7pm with the fleet names "read the gal name and will comply" (when the gal name was donations plz or something) and I couldn't roid him unless his entire fleet was out (which it wasn't). The attack landed and he gained the salvage as far as I could see. So, unless the multihunters are only closing people who actually message each other ingame about farming, I really don't know what the **** the point is of saying donations are illegal.
Yes, and the amount of times I have heard from the multihunters 'IRC logs are not acceptable forms of evidence'

Salvage donations CAN'T be moderated as the attacker is innocent until proven guilty....
So unless he's stupid enough to say "I deliberately crashed on x:y:z" then again it there will be no further action taken.

Again, I have logs of #multihunters that support this :|
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Unread 27 Mar 2011, 12:46   #37
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Re: Time to make donations legal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
Why not just instead make it so people cant LEECH the salvage thats gained. Because most of this problem is top planets get waved and have emp/steal or what ever ships come defend them and then they just leave there untargeted ships home and leech up the salvage. I know it wouldnt solve the problem but it would help. Just make it so you only get salvage off YOUR ship loss and the ships yours kill/steal not what everyone else's.


And as for Donations Just remove salvage the last week like with vacation mode. Its not really an issue up until then as people are less likly to want to crash if theres a good part of the round left.

Bingo, even though it doesn't sort the problem out 100% it's a bloody good start.
I raise this question, WHY can't we change the salvage rule so only ships that are involved in combat have a bearing on salvage, i.e BS that attacks CR/DE does not gain salvage for a FI crash as it doesn't even target FI
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