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Unread 14 Apr 2009, 17:49   #301
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Wishmaster View Post
if 40% go xan, then having 40 xan in top 100 is quite alright! means they are just about good enough




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Unread 14 Apr 2009, 18:03   #302
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Re: R31 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by JM
If this is the final stats, ill be Xan, and id bed a bollock that 40% uni is xan, and theres 40 t100 xans eor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by isil
The main problem is that in a xan heavy uni the race to go is... xan
How is that? You can't roid other xans meaning you have relatively fewer targets than other races and you also end up competing for these fewer roids against those same xans. Plus, if *everyone* did go xan it makes CR/BS more powerful as with reduced salvage and absolute poo efficiency the Bomber is pretty poor. Having it as your only CR/BS defship in a small BG would be ruinous for example.

Also, you guys seem to be assuming that everyone picks their race for the same reasons you do. Sure xan are good offensively, perhaps the best right out of the box, but that doesn't mean everyone will pick them. In fact I would hazard a guess that the majority of people don't really even try to fully understand the statset before making a choice.
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Unread 14 Apr 2009, 18:30   #303
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Re: R31 shipstats

is there a link to current stats?

reading the recent comments, i hope this doesn't become an all attack no defend round
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Unread 14 Apr 2009, 18:39   #304
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Re: R31 shipstats

If 40% of the uni are xan it means these 40% cant attack you.
On the other hand Xan roids every race. Admittedly it will be harder fights to get the non-xan targets but in my opinion thats worth it for the smaller amount of inc. In addition to this it should be easier to keep roids, atleast for me, due to there being plenty of easier xan targs to roid.
And theres always the possiblity of going xan cr rather than bomber.
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Unread 14 Apr 2009, 19:00   #305
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
The main problem is that in a xan heavy uni the race to go is... xan


Just un-nerf zik(as ive told you in pm) so they are a viable option
Ziks are a viable option, infact Zik and Xan FI/CO are the only viable options...
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Unread 14 Apr 2009, 19:17   #306
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Re: R31 shipstats

Zik arent a viable options with the new salvage setup.
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Unread 14 Apr 2009, 19:21   #307
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Originally Posted by [JungleMuffin] View Post
Which CR/BS targets FI/CO?
none, but thats not what Gate was arguing. i believe he meant planets that go co/fi heavy are open to raids from bs/cr heavy planets. i think the logic is flawed, but that is my opinion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by [JungleMuffin] View Post
There is a big risk here of having a 50%+ xan universe.
this seems a bit overblown, but a 30% + xan uni seems possible.
xan and terran seem to have the aces, one has very good co/fi fleet, other has very good bs fleet and both have very good fr or fr/de fleets, one has kraken other has wraith which have to be the best in galaxy def ships in these stats (i think kraken steals 1.3 its value + terran get a 20% salvage bonus, terran fr/de fortress + kraken anyone?).

i do like the stats, but if i were to make a suggestions it would be that all the forum opinion focused on terran and xan have made them rather bad ass at expense of others. i hope appoco will remove terran 20% salvage bonus, i also hope cath will get something spectacular, i dont see why that race cant get a few kick arse ships considering the amount of incoming they generate, would anybody object?
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Unread 14 Apr 2009, 19:43   #308
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
Zik arent a viable options with the new salvage setup.
Unless their A/D ratios have been greatly reduced, Zik are always an option.
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Unread 14 Apr 2009, 19:43   #309
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Re: R31 shipstats

All the comments on this forum has done is make xan worse...

I still think alot of things could be helped by improving the effeciency of zik, getting cath some nice killships and doing something to etd.
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Unread 14 Apr 2009, 20:18   #310
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
I still think alot of things could be helped by improving the effeciency of zik, getting cath some nice killships and doing something to etd.
yup
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Unread 14 Apr 2009, 22:13   #311
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Re: R31 shipstats

Mantis could be BS->CO/FI. Those who played that round, was it ok, or was it awful?
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Unread 14 Apr 2009, 22:50   #312
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Gate View Post
Mantis could be BS->CO/FI. Those who played that round, was it ok, or was it awful?
i liked it, loads didnt, certainly makes cath a must have and would really make more xan fake their fi/co as something else. ofc it would have to be weak, something like 250-300d/c (weakest killship in stats atm)?????
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Unread 14 Apr 2009, 23:08   #313
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Mantis could be BS->CO/FI. Those who played that round, was it ok, or was it awful?
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Unread 14 Apr 2009, 23:12   #314
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Re: R31 shipstats

tbh as much as I loved the mantis it seems a pretty big change for so late in the stats... how would it affect how you have other kill ships scorp the same and locust firing up at fr/de?
mantis would make a big difference, it forces fi/co to focus more on xp gains rather than holding value. So it would certainly damage the fi/co dominance that so many fear. However I am sure that just as many of us would rather not have a ship on which you cant fire back.

This would also damage the other fi/co races more than xan as xan can fake their co as fr or cr which will mean that mantis wont be sent for fear of being destroyed.
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Unread 15 Apr 2009, 00:00   #315
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Re: R31 shipstats

fr/de fortress planets ftw man just get enough of it, and u can idle a round with 0 incs. Whats there not to like?

Its not fun to just mass 3 ships and never ever get any real incs.
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Unread 15 Apr 2009, 05:42   #316
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Re: R31 shipstats

why Does Zik always have less actualy ships than every other Race. This seems stupid! Yes zik are all about the steal. Right now they seem very vulerable to Cath Fi's and Xan Co's. With out a high Initi fi.Co kill ship they are lacking the ability to be compeditive. I think you should make a Fi that targets Fi/Co init 4 or 5 that way it can atleast fire back at the terrans and before rev's.
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Unread 15 Apr 2009, 07:17   #317
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Wishmaster View Post
if 40% go xan, then having 40 xan in top 100 is quite alright! means they are just about good enough
Tbh they where quite conservative estimations.

Regardless, ur happy with half the universe being xan?
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Unread 15 Apr 2009, 07:21   #318
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Re: R31 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate View Post
Mantis could be BS->CO/FI. Those who played that round, was it ok, or was it awful?
Tbh, i thought it was a great ship. For some reason tho, attackers where not hesitant to land on a quite decent chunk of them. So from that regard, theyre a good defensive ship, but by no means an instant recall.

I think its a good idea. Also gives Cat a half chance to stop themselves being farmed by other Cats.
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Unread 15 Apr 2009, 08:21   #319
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Re: R31 shipstats

Please dont introduce that horrible ship yet again. SURELY there are better ways to balance the stats.

Might aswell introduce a fi->cr\bs zik killer then as zik also sucks with these stats
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Unread 15 Apr 2009, 10:16   #320
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Re: R31 shipstats

As useful as I found the Mantis in r29 - it must have saved my roids a dozen times - I would not favour their re-introduction.
some sort of suicide ship like r30 harpy is preferable if you must have something to stop the xan fi/co - make the locust a low initiative high D/C low A/C killer in preference to a round 29 Mantis imo. Tho I dont really like that solution either.
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Unread 15 Apr 2009, 10:35   #321
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Re: R31 shipstats

Why not make a fr/de that targets fri/co at a low init? makes it usefull for ingal def, but can still be targetted.
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Unread 15 Apr 2009, 10:41   #322
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Why not make a fr/de that targets fri/co at a low init? makes it usefull for ingal def, but can still be targetted.
Because it will then turn into an IMBA attack ship?

Londo's idea is preferable i think to the BS. I think a 0-0 draw is preferable to a particular race just getting a salvage donation on gal def D: Even so, i think both are better than nothing.
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Unread 15 Apr 2009, 10:42   #323
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Re: R31 shipstats

It was unpopular when I changed the brig to do that.

Game suggested changing the banshee to anti DE only. The revenant might then get swapped to FR/CO targeting. It would then fire after terran frigs, ie a major swing in power towards terran.

Alternatively, a suicide ally defship like this round's harpy. Eg push harpy init down in line with the phantom, or add a zik interceptor with phantom init.
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Unread 15 Apr 2009, 10:57   #324
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Re: R31 shipstats

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It was unpopular when I changed the brig to do that.

Game suggested changing the banshee to anti DE only. The revenant might then get swapped to FR/CO targeting. It would then fire after terran frigs, ie a major swing in power towards terran.

Alternatively, a suicide ally defship like this round's harpy. Eg push harpy init down in line with the phantom, or add a zik interceptor with phantom init.
Yeah not a fan of the FR change tbh. Turns ter FR into wtfpwnage.

I think the harp/int are better ideas tbh. If u drop the harp down, it is possible to get def, but it wont be hard to land as alot of harps will be out attacking, which is a fair compromise imo. An int will work much the same i think, though probably slightly more available for def.

Edit: CO t2 for harp?
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Unread 15 Apr 2009, 11:03   #325
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Re: R31 shipstats

Think I'll push harpy init down to 3 or 4. If it's 4, then phant will also be 4.
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Unread 15 Apr 2009, 11:51   #326
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Re: R31 shipstats

Well i can understand everyone is a bit arroused about Xan Phantom/Banshee Init, yet their ACDC is utterly crap
Worry less, try them out.
I bet Ter-Co Ter-FR Cutlass and Tycoons will just laugh at their tiny damage before r***** *** ***l out of them due to their small armor.

The point on Wrath and Kraken is true though...
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Unread 15 Apr 2009, 11:59   #327
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Re: R31 shipstats

Lowering harpy init should help with making xan fico totally unplayable atleast.
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Unread 15 Apr 2009, 12:00   #328
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Re: R31 shipstats

Am I missing something or does the Mantis look really weak?

I miss Terran being able to have a fleet of all one ship class, it's one of the only things they had going for them.

Harpy init is fine, don't want to nerf xan fi, although I'd go T2 Co, since at the moment it doesn't really hit anything else (well in a useful way)
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Unread 15 Apr 2009, 12:02   #329
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Think I'll push harpy init down to 3 or 4. If it's 4, then phant will also be 4.
Isn't this going to cause the same problem as the last round? Completely nerfing the xans?? Maybe if you make a fr/de with the same init?
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Unread 15 Apr 2009, 12:05   #330
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Re: R31 shipstats

It is a bit less of a problem since the salvage is now reduced its far less viable for Ter`s to send suicideharp def.
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Unread 15 Apr 2009, 12:31   #331
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Re: R31 shipstats

Im almost sorry I made that point; I wanted it to be a cat fking xan not a terran, cat with their bonus in salvage could still effectively suicide.
However I would be in favour of waiting for calcs - I think that the banshee (formerly the phant), pathetic as it is in all aspects bar init might prove less deadly that I at first supposed; the tycoon in particular in should own it.
It seems likely that a xan fi/co fleet will either major on banshees (you need alot because of their pathetic D/C) or will Major on Revenants as the more efficient ship overall - should they major on bashees then relying on the phant for anti-fi/co they can be stopped by other phantoms or harpies/valkyries (benefiting from being t2 but firing on their own t1) should do fine in defence. Majoring on Revenants makes co defence unworkable but necessarily leads to only a few banshees leaving a series of Frigs and Destroyers able to take them on ingal.
Clearly teamups solve this problem but the idea u might construct a single ship to stop teamup possibilities is totaly absurd.
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Unread 15 Apr 2009, 13:02   #332
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Re: R31 shipstats

It'd be nice to at least see some emp efficiencies yo!
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Unread 15 Apr 2009, 13:18   #333
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Re: R31 shipstats

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It'd be nice to at least see some emp efficiencies yo!
They're in the beta and have been since yesterday :/

Unfortunately Appoco hasn't replied to me yet!
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Unread 15 Apr 2009, 13:27   #334
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Re: R31 shipstats

Did you change the Spider/Defender targetting to fi/co yet?
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Unread 15 Apr 2009, 13:44   #335
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Did you change the Spider/Defender targetting to fi/co yet?
Yes, it's all in the beta, as soon as appoco puts it public we can all see



The biggest fears from everybody have been xand overpowering, with terran overpowering also in there. Etd's weakness has also been mentioned.

In response I pushed harpy/phantom init in line at 5. Might bring phoenix init to below warfrig, or just push warfrig back to init 7.

In order to give terran CO-with-dragons another weakness (now that they're tough to anything that's not an EMP fleet) I pushed broadsword init to 6, dragon to 7, xan CR->BS ship to 8.

Also reduced firepower of harpy and increased armour/dmg of xand CR->BS ship.


EDIT: People kicked up a shitstorm about xand which suggests we could have expected a massively xand universe, and the relative numbers of each race affects balance a lot. If all races were evenly split, I honestly don't think xand FI/CO are overpowered, but a lot of people thought they were so we'da seen a lot of xands. People only seem to look at class/target/init and not at A/C D/C. Which I guess is why everyone thought etd BS would be awesome last round, when they were clearly mediocre.
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Unread 15 Apr 2009, 14:10   #336
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Re: R31 shipstats

People not in beta will find it hard to understand, we have to do with the stats ingame, there's not even Dragons there
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Unread 15 Apr 2009, 14:20   #337
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Re: R31 shipstats

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People only seem to look at class/target/init and not at A/C D/C. Which I guess is why everyone thought etd BS would be awesome last round, when they were clearly mediocre.
Salvage has been halved man. Init is going to matter a lot more this round than last.
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Unread 15 Apr 2009, 14:26   #338
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Gate View Post
Yes, it's all in the beta, as soon as appoco puts it public we can all see



The biggest fears from everybody have been xand overpowering, with terran overpowering also in there. Etd's weakness has also been mentioned.

In response I pushed harpy/phantom init in line at 5. Might bring phoenix init to below warfrig, or just push warfrig back to init 7.

In order to give terran CO-with-dragons another weakness (now that they're tough to anything that's not an EMP fleet) I pushed broadsword init to 6, dragon to 7, xan CR->BS ship to 8.

Also reduced firepower of harpy and increased armour/dmg of xand CR->BS ship.


EDIT: People kicked up a shitstorm about xand which suggests we could have expected a massively xand universe, and the relative numbers of each race affects balance a lot. If all races were evenly split, I honestly don't think xand FI/CO are overpowered, but a lot of people thought they were so we'da seen a lot of xands. People only seem to look at class/target/init and not at A/C D/C. Which I guess is why everyone thought etd BS would be awesome last round, when they were clearly mediocre.
Hmmm thats alot of changes. Im not sure if it was necessary to to do all that. I think a t2 on the harp may have been subtle enough to still enable Xan to land as much, but also giving enough viable options/flak to def against, while still leaving terran CO open to incs enough to not need all the extra changes.

The stats where pretty much close to finished, Im not quite sure if the extra changes where necessary.

Edit: Btw can we please get an updated stat sheet? Im looking for warfrig and not being able to find it D:

P.P.S: I still think the xan eff is more than enough to cause most people to run fleets from fakes. While you may want to play it safe with your real, your fakes give you a rather large eff boost, based on mental intimidation. Not too many others can send 5k pods and force a planet to run out of terror. For this reason alone xan eff needs to be on the cautious side, as 9 times out of 10, if a target cant get def, he will run fleet. 380+ xan D/C on paper is one thing, but in reality its a fk load more.
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Unread 15 Apr 2009, 19:18   #339
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Re: R31 shipstats

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I pushed broadsword init to 6, dragon to 7, xan CR->BS ship to 8.
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Unread 15 Apr 2009, 19:45   #340
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Gate View Post
The biggest fears from everybody have been xand overpowering, with terran overpowering also in there. Etd's weakness has also been mentioned.

In response I pushed harpy/phantom init in line at 5. Might bring phoenix init to below warfrig, or just push warfrig back to init 7.
I dont see how these two go together... if people think there is a possibility that terran is overpowered as well as xan then why should they get the ship upgrade rather than etd which you have mentioned as being weak or else cat who always seems to be weak... surely it should be the arrowhead or locust not the harpy with equal init to the phantom?
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Unread 15 Apr 2009, 20:53   #341
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Re: R31 shipstats

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I dont see how these two go together... if people think there is a possibility that terran is overpowered as well as xan then why should they get the ship upgrade rather than etd which you have mentioned as being weak or else cat who always seems to be weak... surely it should be the arrowhead or locust not the harpy with equal init to the phantom?
A CO->CO ship would be a repeat of the harpy of last round which I think we agreed on the whole was a bad thing.

Locust with beetle currently nullifies cath FI and xand CO. Not sure I want to weaken ter CO any further, they struggle enough with arrows, valks, phants, revs & beetle/loc.

This way xands are weakened, terrans receive a slight boost but in exchange are weakened against etd by the BS swap. I'm currently happy with how that works out and now I'd prefer to just play with efficiencies.
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Unread 15 Apr 2009, 23:27   #342
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Re: R31 shipstats

Beta is now up here.

Efficiencies need to be worked out. Maybe a handful of small init changes. I don't plan on any more class or targeting changes unless I missed something horrendous.
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Unread 15 Apr 2009, 23:37   #343
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Re: R31 shipstats

The cerberus and the pirate are init 5 and 7 stealers. The spirit isn't cloaked. Paladin is bs as well? And what did we do to you to deserve a geist and a sylph gate?
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Unread 15 Apr 2009, 23:54   #344
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Re: R31 shipstats

Low init stealers certainly brings a new dimension to the game
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Unread 16 Apr 2009, 06:02   #345
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Re: R31 shipstats

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The cerberus and the pirate are init 5 and 7 stealers. The spirit isn't cloaked. Paladin is bs as well?
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Unread 16 Apr 2009, 09:01   #346
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Re: R31 shipstats

lol now terrans have steal ships? why not just have one race with a few of each ship! that should appease the masses who wanna steal AND go terr. cath (the emp race) had steal ships last round ffs...its getting pathetic. Pretty soon xan will have emp.
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Unread 16 Apr 2009, 09:59   #347
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Re: R31 shipstats

Edit: Just re read the post, and perhaps my tone is coming across as a little full on. If ur reading it, i really really dont intend it to come across that way, so please forgive me.

I dont understand the harp to init 5 only anti FI? You init changed harp from 7 to 5, where it allready had an init advantage over everything it can target, except the banshee, which still shoots before harp anyways?

You can say, ok, but now the harp shoots same init as phant, meaning the harp can suicide shoot at the banshee, but, even then, the banshee has allready fired, if it is even in the fleet at all. Youve "increased" the harp from a ship that has to take some shots, then fire with 330 D/C at a ship that may not be there, to a ship that now takes the exact same damage, to shoot with 277 D/C, at a ship that may not be there.

(Can someone check my logic here: The harp now has a 20% downgrade on DC, (suffers the same losses), due to an init change which allows 20% (give or take) harps that otherwise would be dead to fire. Does that not make harp the same, if not worse, as the losses would be not be 20% on harp, but 20% over the entire def fleet, due to flakking? Basically what im asking, has the harp taken a 20% downgrade on D/C, to allow +-10ish% extra harps to fire?

Imo the change made to harp has absolutely no relevance to stats what soever. If indeed it has one, i think its made xan stronger D:

Leaving xan CO still imba, while reducing the only legitimate attack fleet terran had ( due to broad/ter BS init change,) leaving them with a handicapped CO fleet, and lethargic BS fleet, has made terran a non event. The only option available to ter, is building pure FR/DE and defending your startup roids all round.

Why does reducing xan CO appear to be so much of a no go zone? Is DLR planning another FICO round?

Atm, ETD is now looking defensively quite impressive, being the only race able to somewhat stop Xan CO, doing decent against FR, and beating xan CR. All round ETD faps over ter, with BS + lancer owning every single Ter fleet. Cat, is well, cat and zik is init inferior. Wintrades?

After having thought about it, and evauluating current stats, its still xan CO.

In all honesty, i found r31.04 stats great, bar the xan thing, and felt they only needed a bit more defense flying about. Its a shame to see the stats have gone in the direction they have.
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Unread 16 Apr 2009, 10:57   #348
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Re: R31 shipstats

Every change makes these stats worse and worse...

Changing things each time someone goes omg this is to powerful is just ****ing everything over each time.
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Unread 16 Apr 2009, 11:48   #349
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Re: R31 shipstats

Can we just scratch these stats and start over again?

Terran stealers????

How very r14 of you. Or was it 15.. I dont care anymore.
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Unread 16 Apr 2009, 12:06   #350
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Can we just scratch these stats and start over again?

Terran stealers????

How very r14 of you. Or was it 15.. I dont care anymore.
Yeah I dont like the idea of terran having a steal ship, I didnt mind r30 cathaar having one though.

But thats because you need a fair number of stealers to make a difference, and being emp means more likely to steal.

So at the start of the round, people didnt build them, but then at the end of the round we saw a increase in the the cat stealer.
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