R31 shipstats

[Zaejii]

that seems more like a problem with who you chose to play with, not the stats or game mechanics.

with single targetting people build 2 ships and xp whore all round. its boring. its attack 90% and defend 10%, and you think long rounds are boring.

[Tiamat101]

He's an Idea instead of doing the same old multitargets Fi/Co Fr/De Cr/Bs mix it up. Do Fi/De, or BS/Fi or Co/Cr things like that make people build more ships while still keeping the multitargeting. Another thing to do is to limit the fleets targeting like with Etd in R29, their Fr's couldnt target BS or Cr so they would have to attack with Widows which are De. IF you make people have to attack with 2 ship classes it makes the fleet more vulernable which make the player have to calculate his fleets better in order to attack safly.

While on the flip side it allows defending much easier if you are sending 2 ship types like with the Vshharrk and the Pulsar, Vshharrk's soak the emp and pulsars can fire with little to no threat.

One other thing that i have noticed about zik being week is they have less "buisness" ships. If you add more kill ships it will help "balance out" the fact that they steal ships. Like put a kill ship into every fleet.
ie: a Cr fleet that has a fr/de kill ship and a Cr/BS steal ship. and a Fr fleet that has a Cr/Bs kill ship and a Fr/De steal ship. something like that.

[Gate]

I've tried to add some variety with, eg FI/DE or CR/FR targeting.

It's difficult in a lot of cases though. For example, I did it with the zik FI/CO ships, made one hit CO/FR and the other FI/DE. But it nerfed them quite a bit - if they built CR then they needed anti FI and anti CO and therefore had to split resources between 2 ships. If they built frigs they needed anti FR and DE and had to go for 2 ships again.

I'm not sure that's necessarily a bad thing, though.


I've also looked at out of class attack ships (xands with FI/CO, etds with CR/BS, ziks with FR/DE etc).


By Sunday or Monday I'll have a new set up that should be useable for beta-ing.

[Makhil]

keep up the good work Gate

[Zaejii]

Gate: please don't allow any uber meta class defenses please. i.e. fi/co targetting bs/cr gives what, 3 ticks to get defense instead of the already 2 ticks? would lead to a mostly fi/co universe because of the impossibility of landing higher eta attacks.

[isildurx]

Im pretty sure he would never do that..

[Makhil]

Originally Posted by Zaejii

Gate: please don't ally any uber meta class defenses please. i.e. fi/co targetting bs/cr gives what, 3 ticks to get defense instead of the already 2 ticks? would lead to a mostly fi/co universe because of the impossibility of landing higher eta attacks.

It really depends how you balance it. A FI with BS as T1 may be too much, but a Fi with CO as T1, FR as T2 and BS as T3 why not...
In fact I'd like to see stats where all the ships have T3 ALL. I don't see why a DE couldn't fire at any ship (with different levels of effectiveness ofc).

And what if all the ships have : T1 their metaclass, T2 the meta class below, T3 the meta class above (a BS would have T1 CR/BS, T2 FR/DE, T3 FI/CO)

[isildurx]

And your are supposed to fake how?

[Gate]

Originally Posted by Zaejii

Gate: please don't ally any uber meta class defenses please. i.e. fi/co targetting bs/cr gives what, 3 ticks to get defense instead of the already 2 ticks? would lead to a mostly fi/co universe because of the impossibility of landing higher eta attacks.

Don't worry, that's in my list of absolutely never do ever. I still remember the r13 corsair monstrosity!

[isildurx]

What are you planning on changing for the next set? Is there anything in particular you would like feedback on?

[Zaejii]

i love how we have some people advocating for t3 being removed, and others trying to get t3 all put on ships

[M0RPH3US]

Originally Posted by Makhil

In fact I'd like to see stats where all the ships have T3 ALL. I don't see why a DE couldn't fire at any ship (with different levels of effectiveness ofc).

don´t think that will help with the issue of soloattacking...
it´ll just make it worse

[Tiamat101]

In round 29 when we had the mantis able to target fi/Co it wasnt that broken because of the little impact that it caused. It was only gal defense, and its effectivness was really low. So i wouldnt be adverse to something like that happening again. But i am strongly against fi/co that can target Cr/BS unless it goes to xan in which case i could prolly be ok with it.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Tiamat101

In round 29 when we had the mantis able to target fi/Co it wasnt that broken because of the little impact that it caused. It was only gal defense, and its effectivness was really low. So i wouldnt be adverse to something like that happening again. But i am strongly against fi/co that can target Cr/BS unless it goes to xan in which case i could prolly be ok with it.

Are you ****ing joking here? Cloaked defence that you have 3 ticks to collect?

[Gate]

Originally Posted by Tiamat101

In round 29 when we had the mantis able to target fi/Co it wasnt that broken because of the little impact that it caused. It was only gal defense, and its effectivness was really low. So i wouldnt be adverse to something like that happening again. But i am strongly against fi/co that can target Cr/BS unless it goes to xan in which case i could prolly be ok with it.

Like JBG said, I hope the xand FI/CO attacking CR/BS was a joke

In previous rounds massed bomber (or their equivalent... the xand FR or DE that shoots CR/BS) have ruined CR/BS fleets completely because there's 2 ticks to get them and you can fake endlessly. Having 3 ticks would be HORRIBLE!

I want to avoid CR/BS targeting FI/CO too. Except perhaps an EMP ship, but generally i'm gonna try and avoid it.

[Thatcher]

xan fi/co still too strong, low init/cloak and ofc low eta

something needs to give!

lo isil/jbg o/

[Chulain]

Realistically any ship should be able to have a chance to attack any ship. In the real world, MTB's can and do launch attacks against Cruisers and there have even been attacks against Aircraft Carriers. They have very little chance admittedly, but they could still get lucky, or overwhelm with numbers. Surely giving all ships eiither unrestricted firing or grouping on meta class would be more realistic, eg FI/CO have light as T1, medium as T2 and heavy as T3, enough damage against T1 to cripple or destroy, damage against T2 lowered and requiring say 5 to 1 odds, and against T3 say 15 to 1 odds - IE 15 fighters to take down 1 cruiser.

Keep damage the same - all FI have 'x' damage etc regardless of race. Return to race specific items -
Ter = high armor, slight increas in damage, but slower.
Cat = standard armor but emp is fastest, and more effective than standard guns.
Xand = weaker armor but cloaked and faster.
Zik = Steal ships have better armour than all except Ter, and don't die after capturing enemy ships.
Xtd = Hybrid mix, norm ships as per Ter, emp as Cat, cloak as Xand etc.

[isildurx]

Yeah well xan fi\co is obviously very good, and should be looked at. Just dont nerf them again

[Thatcher]

Originally Posted by Chulain

Realistically any ship should be able to have a chance to attack any ship. In the real world, MTB's can and do launch attacks against Cruisers and there have even been attacks against Aircraft Carriers. They have very little chance admittedly, but they could still get lucky, or overwhelm with numbers.

believe it or not, this is wrong. warships have armour designed to be impervious to certain class of weapons. for example the armoured carriers of the WW2 royal navy and current US navy were designed to deny any chance of certain calibers of shells and bombs penetrating their hulls. MTB (motor torpedo boats) arnt a fair example, they are small ships BUT they carry very heavy arms. I was a Navy Officer and so had to learn this stuff.

to say small ships CAN damage capital ships given correct armaments would be true and examples can be given from real life. to say any ship can attack any ship is wrong.

but back to the point, good stats make the game more playable and add depth and width to players games this round, having co/fi class bs/cr killers is a bad idea (unless they are cath emp) imho.

[isildurx]

I disagree. FI\CO targetting CR\BS is bad. EOD

[M0RPH3US]

Originally Posted by isildurx

Yeah well xan fi\co is obviously very good, and should be looked at. Just dont nerf them again

wtf
NO

at which stats are you looking man !?

[Linkie]

Originally Posted by Chulain

more realistic

Totally. While we're at it, ships flying in space and stuff is pretty unrealistic, get rid of it.

Gameplay/Balance > Realism.

[Chulain]

Originally Posted by Linkie

Totally. While we're at it, ships flying in space and stuff is pretty unrealistic, get rid of it.

Gameplay/Balance > Realism.

D'oh - obviously! You are either misreading or deliberately ignoring the point I was making. I finished in the top 10 of the speedgame that has just ended. I was Xand, and it used round 29 stats, those were really good, we had some very interesting battles. When I did not get caught out, wave after wave of my Xand FI/CO fleet kicked butt, and I followed up with waves of FR/DE to finish off the target.

Lets go back to those stats!

[Tiamat101]

I agree Round 29 had some really good stats. If you were to model after those and just tweak a few things here and there i think they can be good.

[Knight Theamion]

Originally Posted by Chulain

D'oh - obviously! You are either misreading or deliberately ignoring the point I was making. I finished in the top 10 of the speedgame that has just ended. I was Xand, and it used round 29 stats, those were really good, we had some very interesting battles. When I did not get caught out, wave after wave of my Xand FI/CO fleet kicked butt, and I followed up with waves of FR/DE to finish off the target.

Lets go back to those stats!

What exactly is your reasoning here?


Playing in speed game & Finishing top 10 & having fun -> (implies) good stats

WHAT?

Other then that you can have fi/co that target BS/CR, but you have to nerf the eta then. Make fi/co's with FR eta then. I have always been a proponent of cross breeding ships. Like the first ship that was really my pet project, the pegasus round 6. A destroyer with what then was CO eta. You can have stuff like that again to make it fun. But no BS/CR targetting ship with FI eta.

[Gary]

No one in their right mind would use CR/BS attack fleets if FI/CO target them on their current eta. Some of us still remember R13 Cath!

[Cochese]

The old Wyvern, a BS with FR/DE eta

[Knight Theamion]

I think the point in that discussion should not be about class, but about eta. Which at the moment are very linked, but I think, for the sake of the argument and maybe future development, shouldn't be.

[Cochese]

There was a Fr at one point that had fi/co eta too, wasn't there?

It's an interesting idea regardless...a 'heavy fi' with bs eta; a 'battlecruiser' with de eta, etc.

[Knight Theamion]

Originally Posted by Cochese

There was a Fr at one point that had fi/co eta too, wasn't there?

It's an interesting idea regardless...a 'heavy fi' with bs eta; a 'battlecruiser' with de eta, etc.

It was I think called the Centaur, targetted Fi/Co and then you had the chimera with t3=*. Fun set of stats those. But yeah it is a concept I like. Be less standard in the ships. Diversify!

[M0RPH3US]

Originally Posted by Cochese

There was a Fr at one point that had fi/co eta too, wasn't there?

It's an interesting idea regardless...a 'heavy fi' with bs eta; a 'battlecruiser' with de eta, etc.

that sounds like something interesting

[_Kila_]

Originally Posted by Gate

I want to avoid CR/BS targeting FI/CO too. Except perhaps an EMP ship, but generally i'm gonna try and avoid it.

Why not?

Originally Posted by Thatcher

xan fi/co still too strong, low init/cloak and ofc low eta

something needs to give!

lo isil/jbg o/

After last round's thread, your opinion shouldn't count.

[Linkie]

I definately find the idea of different etas within the same classes interesting. If nothing else just to mix things up, aslong as you dont have to sacrifice balance for it.

[isildurx]

I agree

[Light]

Originally Posted by Cochese

There was a Fr at one point that had fi/co eta too, wasn't there?

It's an interesting idea regardless...a 'heavy fi' with bs eta; a 'battlecruiser' with de eta, etc.

What would the idea add to the game?

The battlecruiser couldnt join your FR/DE fleet even with the ETA, is it would have no flak.. unless of course it had lower ETA and fired first?

[Knight Theamion]

Originally Posted by Light

What would the idea add to the game?

The battlecruiser couldnt join your FR/DE fleet even with the ETA, is it would have no flak.. unless of course it had lower ETA and fired first?

You are not that stupid Light, it would increase the variation of fleet tactics.

You can boost your CR/BS attack a tick later with a massive influx of said cruisers, who then can only be stopped by FR/DE defence. Also if it targets for instance FR/DE it would be a pretty hardcore def ship. Ofcourse costs etc need to be balanced in this case.

[Gate]

Originally Posted by _Kila_

Why not?

A ship that zero-loss kills all attack fleets across 2 classes is generally a bad idea.

IMO you're better off with an uber low init FR/DE that's awesome at killing FI/CO than something that's completely immune.

[isildurx]

You were having your set ready for betatesting one of these days Gate?

[Gate]

Originally Posted by isildurx

You were having your set ready for betatesting one of these days Gate?

Gonna be this evening, got delayed by family bereavement.

[isildurx]

Ok, cant wait to (constructively) criticise it

[M0RPH3US]

meanwhile you can look at r32 stats

i tweaked the orginal version of mine

most changes for etd and zik (upgraded both)
implemented Slow/Fast ships
Xan now the only race without flak for their SK´s

and before you critizise it wouldnt be possible to build a few ships a race, check again
for all races its possible to build ships against everything using 3 or 4 diffrent ships (not saying those are the best choices, but sometimes they are (cathaar?))

have fun reading, i know your all bored anyhow

Edit: lol i forgot the link >>> http://pastebin.com/f12a280cc

Edit2: erm Smuggler is eta+1 not +2

[Rio]

Originally Posted by Gate

Gonna be this evening, got delayed by family bereavement.

Public beta? or...

[Gate]

Originally Posted by Rio

Public beta? or...

Putting a set up here first.

Here y'all go.


Like I said, someone in my family had the bad grace to die on us, so I wasn't able to spare the time to do it properly. This needs a good run over and hopefully we have a beta set by tomorrow or Wednesday.

[isildurx]

First of all. Fix the xan FI\CO. I dont know if this is supposed to be a joke but as it stands at the moment they are FAR too good as far as I can see.
There NEEDS to either be a downgrading of xan fico or some ship ingal that has init 3 that kills fi and or co.

(I hate to say DLR wanting to go fico plays a part in these stats but...)

[Gate]

Originally Posted by isildurx

(I hate to say DLR wanting to go fico plays a part in these stats but...)

To be clear, I'm not planning on playing next round and I've not spoken with anyone in DLR about this. There's no malicious intentions.


Where would you suggest adding an ingal FI/CO killer? I did want to fit one in, but I'm not sure which race to put it in, since it would be painful to the FI/CO fleets.

Slight problem with adding one is that all races have an FR or DE attack fleet, and this would uber them against FI/CO xands. This encourages me to consider a BS->FI/CO killer. But like I said, I don't like all FI/CO fleets being so easily stopped by a single ingal fleet.

So the things which spring to mind are:
- make arrowhead kind of like this round's harpy by making it trade fire with the xand attack fleet. But make CO its t2.
- out of class FR/DE class low init CO killer. Could make the cerberus target CO/FR at low init. Or give it to a zik DE or cath FR. I'm loath to add more to the etd FR/DE arsenal and the r15 tzen still leaves me feeling ill.

[isildurx]

Change Pillager to init 3 anti FI?

[Gate]

Originally Posted by isildurx

Change Pillager to init 3 anti FI?

Sounds like a good idea.

If no-one comes up with a good reason against it, I'll put that in the next set.

[Achilles]

I don't see the problem at all. Xan might be good at getting roids in that statset but they'll find it pretty hard to hold them. Not to mention that D/C for the only 2 usable Fi/Co ships is as bad as I would say it's ever been.

There are other ways to ensure balance that don't also ruin playability. The point is for the race as a whole to be balanced, not each individual fleet types.

[isildurx]

The bomber is always bad, and cr\bs usually is the easiest class to get defence against. I dont mind fi\co being good but as it is now they can roid every race 0 loss except themselves. A bit to much imo.

[Achilles]

It will be impossible to solo cats (unless they are close to your bash limit) as their emp is once more hugtasticly powerful. It won't be worth the effort to hit ziks once they have decent steal as other targets will generally be easier. Alliance def wise the Arrowhead isn't that bad, it gets hit first at T2 but returns fire at T1 and the Banshee is excellent as it will kill accompanying Phantoms type 1 whilst only having fire returned at it in T2.

Stop directly associating a fleets ability to attack with it potential for landing, they are completely separate. I rarely post on stat threads as I don't enjoy reading them so much but I'm doing so now because you guys you are heading down the road to ruining what might be the most balanced xan statset in a while.