They can't be serious..

[Colt]

http://channels.aolsvc.co.uk/news/ar...29060009990002

Trying to get the Queen to apologize for something they started

[Ninja_spammer]

By any chance is that article limited to AOL members only cos all I get is a log in/JOIN UP screen.

[Dace]

If thats about the Germans wanting the Queen to apologise for the civilian bombing of German cities during WW2 then i saw that in the paper at least a week ago (if not then ignore me ... i cant see the link)

[JammyJim]

why in the **** should the queen (i.e the nation) apologise for bombing the shit out of our enemy when THEY WERE DOING THE SAME TO US???

AND
more to the point
WE ****ING WON



WINNERS DONT SAY SORRY.

[Dace]

we started the civilain bombing i'm pretty sure tho (to distract them from bombing our air force / airfields)

[JonnyBGood]

Assuming dace is on the right track why on earth would the queen be apologising? I rather doubt she was the strategical "genius" behind the allied bombing campaigns over Germany.

[wu_trax]

who said that? and what exactly? can someone copy and paste this for me, or at least give a little longer summary?

[Ninja_spammer]

Shouldn't this be Air marshall 'bomber' harris' job or winston churchill*?

*Granted their both dead but still.....

[Colt]

Article seeing as some of you can't see iy, forgot it wasn't "public" :<

Originally Posted by article

Germans Demand Queen War Apology

The Queen is being urged to apologise to the German people for Allied bombing raids carried out during Second World War.

A major German newspaper piled pressure on the monarch, just days before a state visit, with pictures of the 1945 bombing of Dresden and the headline “Will the Queen finally say sorry?”

The inflammatory move is believed to be part of a greater clamour among German politicians and diplomats to get Britain to apologise.

The demands have outraged ex-servicemen and women across the UK, many of whom risked their lives on a daily basis in the fight against Hitler.

War veterans groups were almost unanimous in their condemnation of the Germans' call for an apology.

Peter Storrar, from the RAF’s 610 Squadron Association, said: “They started it and reaped the whirlwind.

“I remember seeing Liverpool absolutely devastated and it was like that all over Britain.”

Col John Goodsir, vice-chairman of the Air Crew Association, said: “The majority of our members who served in the Second World War would not favour the idea of the Queen saying sorry.”

The Queen, who lived in London during the Blitz, is due to begin a royal visit on Tuesday.

She will attend a charity performance of the Berlin Philharmonic intended to raise cash for the restoration of Dresden Cathedral.


"They started it and reaped the whirlwind"
-Peter Storrar - RAF 610 Squadron Association


The Dresden raids in 1945 claimed about 40,000 German lives.

They were designed to crack German morale with wave upon wave of British and US bombers resulting in firestorms on the ground from which there was no escape.

Supporters say the raids hastened the end of the war, but critics say they may not have been tactically necessary.

[wu_trax]

we did apoligise, didnt we?
you fire-bombed a city full of refugees with no military or strategic value whatsoever, so i guess an apology would be 'ok'

[pablissimo]

Christ people need to move on. Sins of the father and all that bollocks.

[Nondescript Human]

Haha.
Sorry for the Holocaust by the way guys.

[JammyJim]

sins?


we won pab

who gives a shit what the other side 'want'?

i dont see the logic in apologising for something that was in response to A FULL SCALE INVASION OF HALF OF EUROPE. HMMM YES

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by wu_trax

we did apoligise, didnt we?
you fire-bombed a city full of refugees with no military or strategic value whatsoever, so i guess an apology would be 'ok'

Very few of the people alive in the UK today are even remotely responsible for any bombing raids during WWII.

[JammyJim]

commence the shit throwing!

[wu_trax]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

Very few of the people alive in the UK today are even remotely responsible for any bombing raids during WWII.

so? she is not supposed to apologise as a person, but as the head of state of the uk, which still exists today.
but instead you people even seem to be proud of it.

[pablissimo]

Originally Posted by JammyJim

sins?


we won pab

who gives a shit what the other side 'want'?

i dont see the logic in apologising for something that was in response to A FULL SCALE INVASION OF HALF OF EUROPE. HMMM YES

I guess you totally bypassed the fact that I was being sarcastic with the 'sins of the father' comment then. I think it was highlighted by grouping it with 'all that bollocks'.

[pablissimo]

Originally Posted by wu_trax

so? she is not supposed to apologise as a person, but as the head of state of the uk, which still exists today.
but instead you people even seem to be proud of it.

I know I was bragging down the pub about how we, well not we obviously but people 60 years ago, bombed Dresden into a firestorm. And they were all 'hey cool!' and then we had a parade. Clown.

[Proteus]

Drat. It seems the Germans have finally worked out that Second Subaltern Elizabeth Windsor was in fact the brains behind the bombing of Dresden, rather than Air Marshal Sir Arthur Harris as we'd tried to pretend.

[JammyJim]

Originally Posted by wu_trax

so? she is not supposed to apologise as a person, but as the head of state of the uk, which still exists today.
but instead you people even seem to be proud of it.

we are proud of winning yes

[Dead_Meat]

Originally Posted by Dace

we started the civilain bombing i'm pretty sure tho (to distract them from bombing our air force / airfields)

If anything, Germany started the civilian bombing 'craze' by dropping bombs on London during the latter stages of the Battle of Britain.
Admittedly, the responsible aircrew were
a) Lost
b) Shot when they got back and told what naughty boys they had been.
but it gave CHurchill the option of bombing German cities, which, up to this point, had been off limits, apart from dropping hard hitting propaganda leaflets saying 'Gosh, you Germans are awful blighters, you really should just stay home and drink tea, scoundrels!'

Again, the British attempts at bombing were woeful, with some raids being annihilated, but it drew Hitler into the tit-for-tat bombing that continued for years.

But, if anyone tells you that Hitler bombing London made us win the BoB, they'd be wrong. True, it gave the RAF teh breathing space to rest its aircrew and make repairs, but if anything, the RAF was actually stronger at the end of the summer of 1940 than it was at the beginning of the year.

The RAF had a strategy that would continually build to replace losses, the Luftwaffe built a huge airforce, but had no reserves and no industry to sustain it. After its battles in Europe, it had lost close to 40% of its strength, and would have had to sustain a 6 to 1 kill ratio in order to destroy the RAF, something it achieved on only one single day in the battle.

Basically, the Germans lost because they planned badly, if at all, had no cohesive plan to defeat the RAF and did not have the reserves to sustain any serious attempt to.

FInally..



IN BEFORE VERMILLION

[wu_trax]

Originally Posted by JammyJim

we are proud of winning yes

how that? you werent even alive back then

[Dead_Meat]

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

The bombing of Dreseden was perhaps not critical to victory and it was targetting civilians, there's no justification for it.

Hello Coventry, can you hear me?

[Colt]

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

The bombing of Dreseden was perhaps not critical to victory and it was targetting civilians, there's no justification for it.

The Holocaust was not critical to victory and it was targetting civilians (albeit only jews), there's no justificaton for it.

[LHC]

Originally Posted by JammyJim

we are proud of winning yes

I like how we can be proud of winning, yet we can't apologise because we weren't involved.

[JammyJim]

i didnt say we shouldnt apologise because we wernt involved. i just said i dont see what as a nation we should.


and im glad that my country won.

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

The bombing of Dreseden was perhaps not critical to victory and it was targetting civilians, there's no justification for it.

Only 'perhaps' not? If it achieved no positive end whatsoever then no, it obviously wasn't justified. But if it helped to ensure victory, or gave Britain an advantage, then surely it was.

[wu_trax]

Originally Posted by JammyJim

i didnt say we shouldnt apologise because we wernt involved. i just said i dont see what as a nation we should.

because your country killed 10,000s of civilians for no apparent reason?
i wonder what the opinion on this borad was if the us would have nuked dresden

[Vaio]

Originally Posted by wu_trax

because your country killed 10,000s of civilians for no apparent reason?
i wonder what the opinion on this borad was if the us would have nuked dresden

Are you German by chance ? If so.....

'KETTLE POT BLACK'

~Vaio~

[roadrunner_0]

no one should be apologising for ww2 anymore
****s sake 60 years nearly and people still cant let go
are you taking the piss or what?

[Nusselt]

I wouldn't have a problem apologising for dresden, im kinda unsure what the fact that 'we won' has to do with anything unless you believe in victors justice. Obviously what britain did in WWII doesn't compare to the holocaust but it doesn't exempt the uk from the wrongs it carried out.

[roadrunner_0]

can i just point out that none of you were even ****ing alive at the time so why the hell you are arguing about this is beyond me

[Stew]

Originally Posted by roadrunner_0

can i just point out that none of you were even ****ing alive at the time so why the hell you are arguing about this is beyond me

We argue about a lot of things we are/were not involved in, it's what makes it interesting

[wu_trax]

Originally Posted by roadrunner_0

can i just point out that none of you were even ****ing alive at the time so why the hell you are arguing about this is beyond me

does it really matter? it still happened. personally i dont really care. ofc i didnt live back then and i had no relatives in dresden. but to finally let go of that whole chapter there should be some form of apology.
i dont know, let the queen go to dresden, lay down some flowers and say a few words about how bad war is and the whole stuff

[Nusselt]

cause it came in the news i agree we weren't alive at the time and when it comes to nationalistic pride, achivement through association is the first act of the unworthy, as a matter of historical tidying up if the city of dresden feels it needs an apology* then i don't see why it shouldn't get one, who won or what else was done in the war is to a greater degree irrelevant in assessing the (what some people including me feel is the) disporportionate cost benefit situation regarding dresden and perhaps other cities.


*before anyone (and im looking at a ginger person in particular) starts on about the recipricosity of unnessecary pride from britain and unessecary sorrow or guilt from dresden, my argument is initiated if one side or the other starts up. If on the other hand as roadrunner points out we should get on with our lives thats fine, but if one side harps on about us winning and the perpetual guilt the other must feel about the holocaust then i don't see any problem with everyone being unworthy.

[Dead_Meat]

Could someone please request an apology from God for making Scotland please?

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by Nusselt

but if one side harps on about us winning and the perpetual guilt the other must feel about the holocaust then i don't see any problem with everyone being unworthy.

Which person with any credablity has ever said that Germans alive today should feel 'guilty' about the Holocaust?

[Leshy]

Originally Posted by Dead_Meat

Could someone please request an apology from God for making Scotland please?

As his elder, I think that's your responsibility.

[Dead_Meat]

Originally Posted by Leshy

As his elder, I think that's your responsibility.

Listen, don't try pinning Scotland on me, matey, I told them it wouldn't work, again and again, but would they listen? Hell no.

[NibNub]

"They have sown the wind. Now they shall reap the Whirlwind"

Coventry (in particular) and the blitz in general lead to a determination to hit back harder that we now can barely understand. For instance, my grandmother was straffed by a Luftwaffe plane attacking an airbase in Norfolk while she was pushing my mother in a pram - i'm lucky to be alive today. This was an everyday experience for many people in the UK at the time - Anyone suggesting that people living through these events should be concerned about inflicting the same treatment more effectively to the other side is living in cloud cuckoo land. Anyway, fck 'em - they elected a stunted genocidal obvious lunatic so they've only themselves to blame.

[Dace]

Originally Posted by roadrunner_0

can i just point out that none of you were even ****ing alive at the time so why the hell you are arguing about this is beyond me

*cough* DM was *cough*

[Vaio]

Originally Posted by NibNub

Anyway, fck 'em - they elected a stunted genocidal obvious lunatic so they've only themselves to blame.

That is so the US right about now

~Vaio~

[Summanus]

Look, why can't we just say it was a pile of shit that happened and get on with life? We were all big countries, we all get along reasonably now, let bygones be bygones. Both sides did rather shit things, haven't we learned anything from Versailles?

[Boogster]

If the attack was not a necessay cruelty of war, unjustified and wrong, then Germany deserves an apology - and I cannot see why the Queen shouldn't apologise on behalf of the country.
Why on earth we shouldn't apologise solely because we weren't alive at the time Dresden was bombed is beyond me.
It's a little ironic to label Germany hypocrits for wanting an apology, when they have apologised for their mistakes for generations.

[Cochese]

If we apologized to Japan for nuking them twice, which was far more horriffic, an apology here is not entirely unreasonable.

That being said, I can see the UK perspective though. I'd probably tell Germany to go piss up a rope if I was British. You guys got the shit bombed out of you too, so you have every right to be stubborn about not apologising.

[Dante Hicks]

I've never really seen the value of "Sorry" unless you basically mean it was something you would never consider doing again for moral reasons.

In this case that doesn't (I don't think) apply. If Britain was involved in a war for national survival I have absolutley no doubt "we'd" be doing the same thing again in a flash.

In my experience most people are reasonable enough beings, who want to get on with life with their friends / families without bothering too many other people. But if they feel their homes are under attack, especially continually, they'll advocate the most frightening violence very very quickly.

Originally Posted by T&F

This whole "they started it" malarky is nonsense because starting a war isn't as yet enough reason to wipe a city off the map.

No, not normally. But the bombing of Dresden ocurred after the German's assault on multiple other countries, after much of the holocaust, after they had slaughtered millions of our allies troops, after they had killed thousands of British people. That's a different matter. Describing the German's actions prior to 1945 as just "starting a war" is a curious way to phrase things.

"They started it" is a much maligned way of looking at things, but I see no other way of analysing this sort of moral calculus. Sure, it doesn't give us a carte blanché to just go do whatever we want, but it's an important thing to remember.

[wu_trax]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

No, not normally. But the bombing of Dresden ocurred after the German's assault on multiple other countries, after much of the holocaust, after they had slaughtered millions of our allies troops, after they had killed thousands of British people. That's a different matter. Describing the German's actions prior to 1945 as just "starting a war" is a curious way to phrase things.

"They started it" is a much maligned way of looking at things, but I see no other way of analysing this sort of moral calculus. Sure, it doesn't give us a carte blanché to just go do whatever we want, but it's an important thing to remember.

those civilians didnt start the war. the war was practically already over by that time. there was no point in doing this.
im just sick of this attitute that we were the pure evil and everything the allies did was great.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by wu_trax

those civilians didnt start the war. the war was practically already over by that time. there was no point in doing this.

It made the British people feel better. Seriously. These kind of conflicts are insane, and trying to analyse everything in terms of rational cost/benefits will lead to huge gaps in reasoning.

im just sick of this attitute that we were the pure evil and everything the allies did was great.

The Allies behaviour was frequently apalling on a number of levels. It might be instructive to look at the Soviets. Obviously they were on the receiving end of a very brutal conflict with the Germans which led to absolutley staggering losses.

When the Soviet's gained the upper hand their behaviour often mirrored (or was even worse) than the German's. So there are numerous reports of German women being raped by Russian soldiers, people being randomly killed without due process, mass killings, etc, etc.

Is this right? No, of course not. But it's understandable and entirely predictable given the circumstances. And I don't think an apology would be forthcoming. Perhaps if the apology was to specific individuals who had suffered (but not the German people in general) it might be different. But even then it's very unlikely. War is full or horrors, and particularly if you're on the side of the agressor (even indirectly) then you've got to be prepared to take some badness if you lose.

Shit happens, basically.

[wu_trax]

ofc we were the bad guys and your country didnt have much of a choice, but that doesnt make it 'right' to bomb civilians.

[Leshy]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

Shit happens, basically.