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Unread 10 Nov 2005, 17:17   #1
Lοki
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Composing galaxies after shuffle

This round, for the third time in a row, I had to use the self-exile button. I think it's not nessicary. I know there is some kind of strategy behind the ordening of gals. But I often end up in a bad gal.

A bad gal doesn't get better. Even if you exile people, only new noobs that don't use IRC will join. They don't even try to get on IRC. I say, isn't there a way to make sure active people come in gals with other active people? Isn't there a way to check ((IRC)) activity?

This also goes for exiling. Correct me if i'm wrong, but if you are exiled or do a self-exile, your score/value/activity won't be looked at. It should.

I'm tired of hopping gals until I find a good one
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Unread 10 Nov 2005, 19:36   #2
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Re: Composing galaxies after shuffle

Nice suggestion
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Unread 10 Nov 2005, 20:08   #3
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Re: Composing galaxies after shuffle

If i get this right, it basicly means you want a system like a 3rd world country, the rich get even richer, and the poor even poorer. Don't get me wrong here, i understand its annoying to not have a active gal, but you can never suit all players. If all actives land together, why would lesser actives even bother playing? they have no one backing them up that way. It shouldn't be that hard to find a reasonably active gal after a (few) exiles, it might not be a top gal, but good enough for some support.
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Unread 10 Nov 2005, 20:25   #4
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Re: Composing galaxies after shuffle

why is there an exile system at all?

surely if you cannot cope in your galaxy for some horrible world ending reason you can take your case to an admin and ask to be moved, and if it is some great reason you can be moved.

having an exile system is causing more problems than it solves.
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Unread 10 Nov 2005, 20:39   #5
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Re: Composing galaxies after shuffle

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackle
why is there an exile system at all?

surely if you cannot cope in your galaxy for some horrible world ending reason you can take your case to an admin and ask to be moved, and if it is some great reason you can be moved.

having an exile system is causing more problems than it solves.
the way i;d liek to avoid an amdin having to do something would be to have obscenly high exile costs - and maybe have exile literally move u randomly rather than to the bottom 25%
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Unread 10 Nov 2005, 20:53   #6
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Re: Composing galaxies after shuffle

Perhaps a mix would be nice?

A person that self-exiles automatically is randomly placed in the top 25 gals with a spare spot (thus not top 25 ranked, but the first 25 gals from the #1down that have less members than the gal with the most members). But anyone within the top 50 can't self-exile at all, and only be exiled from a gal by the ministers / command. That way if you self-exile you know you end up in a active gal, but they will become slightly less active the more top gal get 'filled', in such a way the load might spread creating more equal gals?

I know this is open to 'abuse', so maybe a 'requirement' is needed to block exiling from gal, but i don't know if thats what you would want.

the numbers, top 25 and 50 are ofcourse subject to change
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Unread 10 Nov 2005, 21:04   #7
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Re: Composing galaxies after shuffle

top 25 is rather a lot better than just active...
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 01:08   #8
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Re: Composing galaxies after shuffle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
top 25 is rather a lot better than just active...
baaah.. READ! :P, i said 'top 25 gals being the first 25 gals with open spots'. If the first 30 gals on the ranking are all full, the top 25 for exile would be galrank 31-55 (any gals with max planets can automatically not receive new exiles), slowly filling up more and more gals to getting a workable base with and give them decent support.

Say you shuffle at the round start, with a cap of 15 planets per galaxy max. You try to fill as many gals as you can to that point, obviously there will be gals (be it by distribution or by exiling inactives) that will have less then 15 planets in it. If a person decides to self-exile, or exile back from the C200+, it would be randomly placed in one of the first 25 galaxies found (starting from the top gal) that don't have 15 planets yet. That way ppl looking for a more active galaxy, will have a good chance on landing in it, as the gals would fill up from the top down, instead placing someone completely random. In the end it will mean more and more gals will have a 'active' core they are looking for, as the (self-)exiles they get in should be considered reasonably active.
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 02:58   #9
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Re: Composing galaxies after shuffle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wandows
That way ppl looking for a more active galaxy, will have a good chance on landing in it, as the gals would fill up from the top down, instead placing someone completely random. In the end it will mean more and more gals will have a 'active' core they are looking for, as the (self-)exiles they get in should be considered reasonably active.
Well, i think you are on the right track there Wandows (!!), but i still think the system that you proposed is open to abuse (ie, a top (full) galaxy wants an active member, exiles an inactive, tells their candiate on IRC to immediately self exile - who then has a fair chance of landing in that gal etc). Also, i wonder if the most active galaxies would consider someone who is active at the bottom ranks sufficiently active for those in the upper ranked gals - you'll end up with the problem of top gals still complaining about "inactives", but those players who self-exile still dont land in nice fluffy galaxies and so still complain .

I think the solution is to start in the middle, and work out from there. ie, if you are in a poorly ranked gal and you are active, you should be *content* with self-exiling to, and being in, a middle ranked galaxy. Middle ranked galaxies are far from the doldrums that face you in the inactive underworld, however there is little incentive for players already in a top ranked gal ot self exile - or be exiled - which means that there is more of a deterrant for misbehaviour (as opposed to just landing in a different top ranked gal to farm intel from).

So that's how i would do it. Have the highest liklihood for people who exile to land in the middle ranked (non c200+) gals, and work up untill there are no spots, then work down untill there are no spots (or alternate between 1 above and 1 below).
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 03:12   #10
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Re: Composing galaxies after shuffle

but theres also the toher side of the coin wandows, all the rest of the players get nothing, no experieced players to help them learn, constant incoming from little guys. If i'd have started in one fo those galaxies it'd be give up and quit PA time.
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 17:27   #11
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Re: Composing galaxies after shuffle

Quote:
If i get this right, it basicly means you want a system like a 3rd world country, the rich get even richer, and the poor even poorer. Don't get me wrong here, i understand its annoying to not have a active gal, but you can never suit all players. If all actives land together, why would lesser actives even bother playing? they have no one backing them up that way. It shouldn't be that hard to find a reasonably active gal after a (few) exiles, it might not be a top gal, but good enough for some support.
Yes, it does. But this is a game, not real life. It's really annoying when you are active and your galaxy doesn't know what IRC is. YOU DESERVE BETTER. When people try to be active and do something to gain value/score, I don't mind being with them. But if they are not trying at all, they should be in a bad gal with members much like them.

Quote:
why is there an exile system at all?
surely if you cannot cope in your galaxy for some horrible world ending reason you can take your case to an admin and ask to be moved, and if it is some great reason you can be moved.
having an exile system is causing more problems than it solves.
The admins would get mad. There are no horrible world ending reasons in a game like this. But when you try to play the game you have to cooperate with people. And especially, they have to cooperate with you. If you end up in a low gal (say #150+), they won't.

I like the Top-Bottom fill idea. But there should be a way to check activity... There should be a statement like xp / Ticks_played = x. Then depending on x, you will come in the best of gals with an open spot, or the worst, or in between.
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 21:21   #12
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Re: Composing galaxies after shuffle

What about a system where we can quantify acitivity. Each planet gets a value of activityness. This would be based on fleet laucnhes, researches, constructions, logins, initiations, etc. (The forumla would of course be discussed at length).

But then when a planet self-exiles or is exiled by their ministers, the planet goes to the galaxy which brings the target galaxy nearest to the Universe galaxy acitivity average.

Imagine a Universe of three gals, one very active, one average and one very inactive. If an active player exiles from the active gal, they get placed into the inactive gal as this balances the Universe to the best possible average gal activity.

An inactive couldn't be exiled from the active galaxy as that would unbalance the Universe further. In this case, the active galaxy has to put up with the inactive.

If the average gal exiled an active planet, it would end up in the lower galaxy as this would bring the Universe average nearer.

So the theory is that eventually, with enough planets being exiled we would end up with a perfectly balanced Universe and no amount of exiling could upset that.

</brainstorm>
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 22:05   #13
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Re: Composing galaxies after shuffle

I like it other than it being horribly difficult Kloopy - i expect others will hate it thought as it means they don;t go into good galaxies
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Unread 12 Nov 2005, 02:09   #14
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Re: Composing galaxies after shuffle

Kloopy, I worry that the theory won't work, and actives will end up stuck in inactive galaxies and stop playing.
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Unread 12 Nov 2005, 02:35   #15
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Re: Composing galaxies after shuffle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Kloopy, I worry that the theory won't work, and actives will end up stuck in inactive galaxies and stop playing.
Indeed, i have to agree with appoco on this one (!!) - whilst i realise that it would be ideal to have universally roughly equal activity in galaxies, i think we have all been here before. The system whereby exiled planets fill gaps in the smallest galaxies was similar; such that active self-exiling players were landing in lowish ranked gals who were exiling out inactives. However the person who is exiling, these low ranked galaxies are also inactive and unsatasfactory. Thus they keep exiling, and the system achieves very little.

Grouping players of similar activity would be nice for people who exile; as they wont get into a galaxy that is better than tehy are, however it will obviously lead to superfortresses that are totally unassailable by many/all alliances and thus pretty hopeless.

I'll reiterate - people who self exile should be content with a middle ranked galaxy, or the closest open galaxy to the middle ranks. A system whereby that is achieved i think will benefit everyone.

Whether that 'rank' is determined by a complex activity calculation like kloopy suggested, or merely just from the universal ranks (as there is a pretty good correlation between activity and score at a galaxy level), doesnt matter overly much - but it is still the way to go i reckon.
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Unread 12 Nov 2005, 12:13   #16
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Re: Composing galaxies after shuffle

would it perhaps be better to rank gals by their score/member, rather than total score? if you're trying to use score as a measure of activity that is.
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Unread 12 Nov 2005, 12:15   #17
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Re: Composing galaxies after shuffle

perhaps we should just get rid of exile and self exile entirly

OR have an entirly automated system
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Unread 12 Nov 2005, 12:56   #18
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Re: Composing galaxies after shuffle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
perhaps we should just get rid of exile and self exile entirly

OR have an entirly automated system
So if you go solo and get to gal which is full of inactives you cant self exile yourself... Wouldn't be too nice, would it ?
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Unread 12 Nov 2005, 13:08   #19
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Re: Composing galaxies after shuffle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dotatrix
So if you go solo and get to gal which is full of inactives you cant self exile yourself... Wouldn't be too nice, would it ?
thing is it probably wouldn;t be full of inatvies if the acitves hadn't allready selfexiled
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Unread 12 Nov 2005, 13:37   #20
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Re: Composing galaxies after shuffle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
thing is it probably wouldn;t be full of inatvies if the acitves hadn't allready selfexiled
We have tried the no exile solution in the past. It didnt work.

End of that train of thought and discussion! .
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Unread 12 Nov 2005, 14:03   #21
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Re: Composing galaxies after shuffle

Quote:
Grouping players of similar activity would be nice for people who exile; as they wont get into a galaxy that is better than tehy are, however it will obviously lead to superfortresses that are totally unassailable by many/all alliances and thus pretty hopeless.
Don't really agree. I think people should get to be with people of about the same activity. If you have say score that is in the top 100 of the universe, take a random gal in the top thirty and place him there. So he will be above his gal average likely, and his gal will be strong, but not untakable. The best gal now is also quite hard to attack - they only take members that please them.
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Unread 14 Nov 2005, 14:41   #22
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Re: Composing galaxies after shuffle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
We have tried the no exile solution in the past. It didnt work.

End of that train of thought and discussion! .
The early rounds didn't work!?
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Unread 14 Nov 2005, 14:50   #23
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Re: Composing galaxies after shuffle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kloopy
The early rounds didn't work!?
Nope.
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Unread 14 Nov 2005, 15:03   #24
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Re: Composing galaxies after shuffle

If galaxy exiles are decided more by "activity", then it'd have to be average activity over the whole round. Otherwise you could quite happily login every tick and initiate roids and launch/recall fleets for a day and then exile into a top galaxy.

Edit: Actually, even then if people spend a hardcore first 72 ticks they can exile into a top gal anyway
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Unread 14 Nov 2005, 16:19   #25
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Re: Composing galaxies after shuffle

Kloopy - bringing Communism to PA.
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Unread 19 Nov 2005, 09:30   #26
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Re: Composing galaxies after shuffle

I think we should do this... Indeed apoco, activity means not just one day. As i said in my opening post (I think), how about something like xp/ticks_played? Or something like that. Value, score, whatever. If you are very active the first 72 ticks, i think you will be active after that as well, to not get kicked out of your wonderful galaxy
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Unread 19 Nov 2005, 11:22   #27
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Re: Composing galaxies after shuffle

The fun thing about a activity based exile program, is that we get all these active gals, and you can immediatly after the shuffle see which gals are filled with noobs who over roid themself.... byebye atleast some protection for lesser actives. And by that you effectively reduce the game to its active core only as lesser actives have nothing to play for anymore, they know each time they log in they most likely find their planet dead again.. the joy. Its behaviour like that that eventually kills the game, i know from my current gal some (less active, but paid) ppl are wondering why they even bother to play cuz of the endless stream of incoming they get. We try to support eachother as much as we can and keep eachother active and interested.. if you leave the lesser actives alone with a endless stream of incoming.. they will simply quit.
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Unread 19 Nov 2005, 12:52   #28
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Re: Composing galaxies after shuffle

Indeed, which is why a system which places exiling mostly actives around the centre ranked galaxies will bolster the middle ranks - lower players have achieveable goals to aspire to, top players have stronger targets which makes the game more challenging, but also more rewarding.

I have so say that i am concerned about a top down fill. Centre is the way to go i reckon.
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Unread 22 Nov 2005, 10:00   #29
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Re: Composing galaxies after shuffle

True.... but noob bashing doesn't give that much xp, does it?

How about, ONLY for exiles, if you have a higher activity than the average in your gal, you have a chance of 50 to 75% of ending up higher than where you are.
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Unread 22 Nov 2005, 14:11   #30
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Re: Composing galaxies after shuffle

Tbh we can only ever keep trying to fix it because its never going to work no matter what you do.
There is always going to be inactive galaxys and theres always going to be ppl who want to exile till they get into that last slot in the top 10 gals. Its a problem I think we will always have to contend with and always have so far.
Yes we can try fill the bottom gals up with more active ppl but we are never satisfied
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Unread 22 Nov 2005, 15:44   #31
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Re: Composing galaxies after shuffle

The galaxy I am currently in has a good core of active players who chat in irc, defend and even attack together. I had to exile once to get there because my first galaxy was mostly inactive and it was impossible for me to grow past a certain size.
My new galaxy often exiles inactive players but more inactives just replace them and that makes it hard for us to compete with luckier galaxies.
I think what needs to be addressed however is, why are these planets so inactive; it's often the smallest planets that never log on to irc and don't launch many fleets. I think the problem is a lot of smaller planets don't know how to pick targets and launch on them without losing all their ships, they also tend to get roided by slightly larger planets a lot of the time. I think a good way to solve this problem would be to have bot planets, or some sort of asteroid belt that could provide easy asteroids to new players.
For example you could have a large galaxy with a good number of planets that have lots of roids but not too many ships defending. Perhaps scans could also be automatically available for these planets so new players can learn to use scans to plan an attack.
So a new player would be given instructions on how to carry out there first few attacks on these weak non-human planets, how to use the scans etc. It would be a good introduction to the game and would allow the smallest planets to get roids and have fun, it should also reduce the amount of big noobs bashing smaller noobs.
Perhaps though this special gal would have its planets in protection for around 200 ticks or something, so it isn't abused by good players early on.
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Unread 23 Nov 2005, 15:15   #32
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Re: Composing galaxies after shuffle

Quote:
I think what needs to be addressed however is, why are these planets so inactive; it's often the smallest planets that never log on to irc and don't launch many fleets.
That's not the problem. The guys don't launch many fleets and don't come to IRC, and BECAUSE OF THAT they are small. Anyone putting some effort in it will understand the game. And the system you just mentioned would, besides being open to abuse by players who really DO understand the game, not help with that. Also, I like this game so much because everyone playing is a human that feels and thinks. The smaller people just don't want to spend their time to do PA, which is nessicary for this game.

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Unread 24 Nov 2005, 01:27   #33
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Re: Composing galaxies after shuffle

I would really like it of the race variation would also reflect in a galaxy. Cause at the moment about 40 % higher even is Xan in the universe, I have only 1 ingal, that really sucks big time when you have Cath CO incomming. On the other hand I have 6 ziks or so ingal, but who needs ziks! ;-)
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