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Unread 17 May 2013, 02:41   #101
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Re: Round 52 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
* Beetle armour/damage from 13/14 to 11/12

Thoose armor number doesnt match the stats, and being a emp ship it doesnt have dmg nor does it match it guns if thats what u ment.

* CR emp resistance halved, apart from Zik CR:
* Investor cost 232/282/232->200/240/200

Theese 2 changes is making the investor way too good both vs cath and zik, t2 effs in the 200% range is waaay to high.

* Locust T2 Bs
* Drake damage 72 -> 83
* Investor buff

All theese changes work against Bs, I think its too much. Cath was weak against ter bs unless u had a ton of tulas, now its ridiculus hard(without etd teamup) for a wyvern with 282 dc DE at t2 to break through a high armoured ship like the locust

* Centaur damage 39-> 47
* Centaur armour 76-> 80

Might be abit much haven't run it vs pulsar in bcalc tho.
Anyway dont make it a co, then all anti fi would be co except for ranger. Which would make it useless since all xan fi would be building way more vsh than puls anyway since they struggle too much vs ranger nyway.
i think the changes vrs BS was needed BS was to strong, locust only have a 331 D/C T2 vrs BS 500/arm/cost.

be4 that changes locust was just a crap ship ;-)

i agree with you Plaguuu about the centaur it should stay FR and maybe even nerf it abit vrs the pulsars, but cent are still only to be used in self def or in galaxy., so iam not sure its needed.
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Unread 17 May 2013, 02:47   #102
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Re: Round 52 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
Sorry, I ended up running late.


Beetle cost 100/100/100 -> 85/85/85
Beetle armour/damage from 13/14 to 11/12

Beetle change to strengthen xan fi slightly

.
last time beetle was a normal ship was back in round 46 ;-)

and there are not any ships in R50 that have cost 100/100/100

from the current beta stats i see no changes to beetles from R50 ;-)
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Unread 17 May 2013, 02:53   #103
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Re: Round 52 stats

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Originally Posted by aif View Post
last time beetle was a normal ship was back in round 46 ;-)

and there are not any ships in R50 that have cost 100/100/100

from the current beta stats i see no changes to beetles from R50 ;-)
Seems it was a change on the mosquito, dunno how it helps the xan fi tho.
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Unread 17 May 2013, 08:27   #104
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Re: Round 52 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
Marauder emp resistance changed from 64 to 34
Rogue emp resistance changed from 70 to 45
Pillager emp resistance changed from 69 to 44
Investor cost 232/282/232->200/240/200
Investor armour 33->29
Investor emp res 52->45
Roach has init 1, while the Investor has init 2, so that looks fine to me: http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=vshglpz08tzymmj
Zik Cr was nerfed way too much: http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=55fknnoy4pvin6m

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
Cutlass damage 10->11
Inforza armour 22->19
Cutlass does not need a buff: http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=uwrtoxwsvw3kl89
Please change the name on the Inforza.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
Centaur damage 39->47
Centaur armour 76->80
Too much: http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=qneo6d56ns0qjbe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
Drake damage 72 -> 83
Pegasus emp resistance 82 -> 84
Ziz emp resistance 81 -> 83
I think Xan De needs a bit of a buff
Xan De and Ter De on their own are not very good. Together they kick major butt. Don't buff either one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
Tycoon Type Cloak -> Steal
Tycoon Iniative 9->21
Tycoon Armour 140->155
Tycoon Damage 135->128
Tycoon steals into a class Etd can't build, and at init 21 it will be completely useless against Zik Cr. It was much better as cloak.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
Beetle change to strengthen xan fi slightly
What change?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
Broker T2 switch to differentiate it from Wyvern, also allows Locust to have a T2 and allows Cath to be slightly more well rounded overall (i.e. slightly weaker in attack but slightly stronger in defence). I know the general feel was emp was "too strong", so I've tried to balance it a bit with that T2.
I don't follow. Emp is too strong so you've improved Cat? I can't find any change that caused a serious Emp nerf.
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Unread 17 May 2013, 11:09   #105
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Re: Round 52 stats

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I don't follow. Emp is too strong so you've improved Cat? I can't find any change that caused a serious Emp nerf.
the E/R on cath cr is crazy low now. i wont say thats an improvement ;-)


Gryphon dam is abit to high now i think.

http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=cn4bdx1pjxue7ox

tycoon i useless now, and ETD lost its fake power.
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Unread 17 May 2013, 12:39   #106
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Re: Round 52 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by aif View Post
the E/R on cath cr is crazy low now. i wont say thats an improvement ;-)
It doesn't matter. Roach fires before Investor, and Tula fires at the same time. I posted a calc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aif View Post
Gryphon dam is abit to high now i think.
Both Dragon and Drake are better choices than it. They're in the roiding fleets, have flak, and the Drake fires at Bs too.
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Unread 17 May 2013, 14:12   #107
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Re: Round 52 stats

Can we just get a different set of stats please. These ones are getting too messed up Cr now looks useless with emp the way it is. De getting further buffed. and Co getting de-buffed.

Can we have someone that can actually measure the effects of what they are actually changing fix these stats, PLEASE.
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Unread 17 May 2013, 14:49   #108
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Re: Round 52 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
It doesn't matter. Roach fires before Investor, and Tula fires at the same time. I posted a calc.


Both Dragon and Drake are better choices than it. They're in the roiding fleets, have flak, and the Drake fires at Bs too.

well i agree to investor dont mater much vrs cath.

but saying that drake are better i think ur wrong just look at this:
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=t082h9kzqustgvm

now try and togel on of the 2 fleet what do you think an allaince would rater use as anti CR ;-)

you said it ur self yes you have flak but ur de is better off being flak and let the FR shoot and kill alot, it does to much dam.

Dragons well i agree 1v1 as you dont have flak for ur Gryphon, ur better of building more Dragons.
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Unread 17 May 2013, 14:53   #109
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Re: Round 52 stats

Round 36 stats please.

And can you add a res stealing ship again. i've never played one and I'd like to


Zik cr shouldnt have low ER. Thats the trade off for firing last. 2nd tier ER to terran has always been the zik legacy
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Unread 17 May 2013, 15:19   #110
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Re: Round 52 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by aif View Post
well i agree to investor dont mater much vrs cath.

but saying that drake are better i think ur wrong just look at this:
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=t082h9kzqustgvm
.


However All Terrans Will HAVE TO build Drakes as its there only anti bs. Which means they will have no need to build Gryphons. If they want more anti Cr they will just build Dragons. They arent losing out on Eta vs Cr with dragons so its the same and now they can get flack from Etd Tycoons.

Gryphons will be a ship thats only built if there are VERY few Bs attackers which i doubt since ter Bs is still strong.

Personally I'd like to see a change to Zik. They have 2 holes before hulls 3 and no other race does except for terran. I would like to see Clipper Changed to T1 Bs. Right now Zik have to have hulls 3 for BOTH anti cr and Anti Bs. Same for Terran they need Hulls3 for Anti Fr and Anti De. Personally i think thats too much to gimp a race for the 1st 300 ticks.
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Unread 17 May 2013, 23:08   #111
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Re: Round 52 stats

Some weird changes.... tycoon change is just utterly silly.
xan de does NOT need a buff, in any way shape or form!
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Unread 18 May 2013, 09:46   #112
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Re: Round 52 stats

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Originally Posted by bass View Post
Some weird changes.... tycoon change is just utterly silly.
xan de does NOT need a buff, in any way shape or form!
agree
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Unread 18 May 2013, 12:36   #113
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Re: Round 52 stats

Firstly, obviously I misspoke last time with the Beetle changes - I meant the Mosquito. Apologies.
I have no idea why I put the beetle comment.

Fixed CR EMP (for Investor T2 - it's the only ship that hits EMP as a T1 or a T2):

Behemoth EMP resistance 20->30
Roach EMP resistance 8->16
Tarantula EMP resistance 22->30
Hornet EMP resistance 6 -> 18
Marauder EMP resistance 34 -> 42
Rogue EMP resistance 45 -> 51
Pillager EMP resistance 44 -> 51
Liquidator EMP resistance 0 -> 5

Buffed Ter Bs:
Wyvern Damage 260 -> 300
Dragon Damage 356 -> 370
Dragon Armour 669 -> 680

Changed Tycoon back to Cloak:
Tycoon Type Steal -> Cloak
Tycoon Init 21 -> 6
Tycoon Armour 155 -> 130
Tycoon Damage 128 -> 136

Tweaked Centaur's upgrade back slightly:
Centaur Damage 47->45
Centaur Armour 80->77

Inforza -> Thief

"Degimped" Terran / Zik slightly, so they don't have 2 holes from 2 ship techs.
Clipper T2 -> Bs
Harpy T2 -> Fr
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Unread 18 May 2013, 12:45   #114
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Re: Round 52 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
Broker T2 switch to differentiate it from Wyvern, also allows Locust to have a T2 and allows Cath to be slightly more well rounded overall (i.e. slightly weaker in attack but slightly stronger in defence). I know the general feel was emp was "too strong", so I've tried to balance it a bit with that T2.
I don't follow. Emp is too strong so you've improved Cat? I can't find any change that caused a serious Emp nerf.
I honestly thought i'd tweaked up a lot more emp resistances than I have, but de and cr certainly are now stronger vs cath, and cath emp resistance makes it more vulnerable to the Investor.

May need to go through again and have another look; I was tempted to give the Xan Fi slightly better EMP resistance and I think that lead to the confused Beetle comment.

p.s. damn you for having put so few guns in your original stats
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Unread 18 May 2013, 14:07   #115
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Re: Round 52 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
Buffed Ter Bs:
Wyvern Damage 260 -> 300
Dragon Damage 356 -> 370
Dragon Armour 669 -> 680
Looks pretty damn strong: http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=u4u7ahbl8ooyd4u (compare to Etd)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
Changed Tycoon back to Cloak:
Tycoon Type Steal -> Cloak
Tycoon Init 21 -> 6
Tycoon Armour 155 -> 130
Tycoon Damage 128 -> 136
Also looks alright: http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=xhmtzsw55lanj8j

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
Tweaked Centaur's upgrade back slightly:
Centaur Damage 47->45
Centaur Armour 80->77
I think the Centaur is OK now. It's strong, but not in a roiding fleet, so people won't overbuild them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
"Degimped" Terran / Zik slightly, so they don't have 2 holes from 2 ship techs.
Clipper T2 -> Bs
Harpy T2 -> Fr
Supporting Harpy improvement.
Clipper looks really weird now, with T1 Co, T2 Bs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
IMay need to go through again and have another look; I was tempted to give the Xan Fi slightly better EMP resistance and I think that lead to the confused Beetle comment.
With the buff to the Centaur, I think a Xan Fi ERes buff is sorely needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
p.s. damn you for having put so few guns in your original stats
I fiddled with that several times, but the more guns you put on EMP ships, the higher individual ship's ERes must be. High ERes has fewer discrete values to choose between (98 -> 99 is 100% extra, 90 -> 91 is 10%, 80 -> 81 is 5%).
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Unread 18 May 2013, 15:12   #116
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Re: Round 52 stats

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post

I think a Xan Fi ERes buff is sorely needed.

Yup, you currently need about 93898 vsh to just start breaking through 20k worth of beets
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Unread 19 May 2013, 11:01   #117
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Re: Round 52 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Looks pretty damn strong: http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=u4u7ahbl8ooyd4u (compare to Etd)
Just to clarify - are you saying it's definitely too strong?
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Unread 20 May 2013, 10:05   #118
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Re: Round 52 stats

I played zik in r50 and I asked this constantly. Why can't I steal De ?
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Unread 20 May 2013, 10:30   #119
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Re: Round 52 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
Just to clarify - are you saying it's definitely too strong?
Ter seems stronger than Etd defensively, so it's odd that Ter Bs also seems stronger offensively. I'm not sure if Ter Bs is too strong or Etd Bs too weak though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Papadoc View Post
I played zik in r50 and I asked this constantly. Why can't I steal De ?
No particular reason. Zik needs some kill ships to be viable, and it just turned out that way.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.

Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 20 May 2013 at 10:35.
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Unread 20 May 2013, 21:57   #120
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Re: Round 52 stats

Well, the fairly balanced stats (apart from etd) certainly got butchered.

So much talk about Ter DE and BS, but did any of you geniuses actually play them with a decent planet? I did, and I'll tell you how it went:

Pre tick 350: You are either completely open to fr/de or you are sitting on cargo to 500 roids with tt -3. Ter research is insanely bad, especially if you choose corp or tot, which is pretty much a given as Ter. You are completely open to xan fi and the only def ship you have are drakes (now with terrible harpy added). Attacking is pointless since you can't mine what you cap anyway, and overall your value gain is bad because you can't keep up with other races core and faster hct to mine more roids. (Ter and Xan need to be reworked generally so they are better at the start than they are currently, but that's another discussion)

Tick 350 - 700: Finally get tt -4 and can defend with dragons in alliance (yay!) and pl peg/wyvern def. Still feel like you can't really contribute much to defense in alliance. At least now you can attack a little if you can find a team up and mine up to 1k roids. But still lacking cores, so not really gaining much value. Also still completely open to xan fi while getting all other kind of incoming.

Tick 700-1050: Now Terran finally gets somewhat decent. You have cores, you got cargo, you might actually start catching up! You need some luck/bad dc'ing from the people you are attacking though, as 1 ghost fleet (or fake) will cover your BS and 1 PK fleet (or fake) will cover your DE. So the best option was to fake in various ways, have time to news scan and have some balls to land if you were confident something was fake.

You see, what happened in r50 was that ND (the alliance with most terrans), barely got incoming during this period and thus you had some ridiculous planets like Jubuddha and others that had crazy amounts of BS and not much else. Obviously the attacks from these planets were hard to cover, but they could easily have been roided and indeed some of them were the last 2 days when ND got a little bit of incoming. Still though, there was only 1 terran in the top14 because the growth period had come too late for most terrans to catch up.

Whoever said you are immune to CO attacks while only building pegs needs his head checked, CO was always the toughest incoming for me to cover and a big CO wave also roided me at one point. It's well worth mentioning that I also had a good amount of drakes to flak my pegs, but the co waves still came. We also had a xan DE planet in gal who got so frustrated with lack of lands that he switched to FI..

I had most FI incoming (0 cents), but there were waves of CR/BS and many xan DE waves launched at me too together with big CO waves. Terran is not immune to any incoming and needs lots of help to survive. The overall D/C is awful, even on pegs, and the rest of the ships don't shoot first either. You can all talk about how great you think terran were in round 50, but the fact is they were truly awful and both the stats and end of round rankings show that. How it has passed down in pa lore that xan/ter DE were amazing is a ****ing mystery and it completely ignores every stat you can find about r50.
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Golan - Ascendancy

Planets.
Zik: 3rd(r30), 4th(r52), 7th(r27), 9th(r26), 31st(r51)
Ter: 3rd(r50), 4th(r53), 4th(r37), 5th(r31) 7th (r58)
Xan: 3rd(r36), 40th(r57) 54th(r33), 104th(r29)
Cat: 8th (r54), 9th(r48), 12th (r55), 20th(r32), 77th(r23), 103rd(r38), 150th(r34), 152nd(r24),
Etd: 14th(r28)

Those damn emp races..
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Unread 20 May 2013, 22:29   #121
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Re: Round 52 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Clipper looks really weird now, with T1 Co, T2 Bs.
At least, they came from completely utterly useless to weird. That's an improvement.
Although i would change to T1 BS T2 CO (or something else).
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Unread 20 May 2013, 23:16   #122
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Re: Round 52 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotnam View Post
Well, the fairly balanced stats (apart from etd) certainly got butchered.

So much talk about Ter DE and BS, but did any of you geniuses actually play them with a decent planet? I did, and I'll tell you how it went:

Pre tick 350: You are either completely open to fr/de or you are sitting on cargo to 500 roids with tt -3. Ter research is insanely bad, especially if you choose corp or tot, which is pretty much a given as Ter. You are completely open to xan fi and the only def ship you have are drakes (now with terrible harpy added). Attacking is pointless since you can't mine what you cap anyway, and overall your value gain is bad because you can't keep up with other races core and faster hct to mine more roids. (Ter and Xan need to be reworked generally so they are better at the start than they are currently, but that's another discussion)

Tick 350 - 700: Finally get tt -4 and can defend with dragons in alliance (yay!) and pl peg/wyvern def. Still feel like you can't really contribute much to defense in alliance. At least now you can attack a little if you can find a team up and mine up to 1k roids. But still lacking cores, so not really gaining much value. Also still completely open to xan fi while getting all other kind of incoming.

Tick 700-1050: Now Terran finally gets somewhat decent. You have cores, you got cargo, you might actually start catching up! You need some luck/bad dc'ing from the people you are attacking though, as 1 ghost fleet (or fake) will cover your BS and 1 PK fleet (or fake) will cover your DE. So the best option was to fake in various ways, have time to news scan and have some balls to land if you were confident something was fake.

You see, what happened in r50 was that ND (the alliance with most terrans), barely got incoming during this period and thus you had some ridiculous planets like Jubuddha and others that had crazy amounts of BS and not much else. Obviously the attacks from these planets were hard to cover, but they could easily have been roided and indeed some of them were the last 2 days when ND got a little bit of incoming. Still though, there was only 1 terran in the top14 because the growth period had come too late for most terrans to catch up.

Whoever said you are immune to CO attacks while only building pegs needs his head checked, CO was always the toughest incoming for me to cover and a big CO wave also roided me at one point. It's well worth mentioning that I also had a good amount of drakes to flak my pegs, but the co waves still came. We also had a xan DE planet in gal who got so frustrated with lack of lands that he switched to FI..

I had most FI incoming (0 cents), but there were waves of CR/BS and many xan DE waves launched at me too together with big CO waves. Terran is not immune to any incoming and needs lots of help to survive. The overall D/C is awful, even on pegs, and the rest of the ships don't shoot first either. You can all talk about how great you think terran were in round 50, but the fact is they were truly awful and both the stats and end of round rankings show that. How it has passed down in pa lore that xan/ter DE were amazing is a ****ing mystery and it completely ignores every stat you can find about r50.

Being someone who played Xan De in a galaxy of other Xan De who had attack partners who went random playing Terran De i can say that DE was awesome in rd 50. It was a ****ing pain to attack all round, cloaked def + flak made covering very very easy. The only issue we had at all was ETD FR and just had to go down the route of mass pulsar flak, now you can add harpies to that it definatly makes ETD less of an issue (harpies have sick emp res regardless of how hard they fire). You dont need a great deal of Phants (??) to stop Xan FI thats why overall there was very little of it about especially with how epic beetles are against it ( 1 beet fleet completely ruins ANY xan fi attack).

If i was playing or picking an alliance strategy i would probably say DE Fort if the alliance was under 40 and probably a DE/FR/BS mix if it was a bigger alliance. The scatty nature of def fleets in these stats means you dont need to go with one metaclass in a bigger alliance, De and Fr and BS soak up so many def slots to cover them that attacks get through from big alliances all round.
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Unread 21 May 2013, 06:13   #123
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Re: Round 52 stats

zotnam u cant really complain about bad research when you choose to go a goverment like corp or tot, its a choice u make. Also xan has worse research than terran and etd got the same research as terran. So basicly there is only 2 races with better research than terran so no reason to complain.

Also terran gotten loads of buffs already probably making them the best race out there atm. If you struggle with ter de vs co, u need to teamup with a xan de. The big cost difference make you godly vs them co incs.

Terran has bad value gain? Did I just respond to a troll, so be it.
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Unread 21 May 2013, 18:52   #124
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Re: Round 52 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by lince View Post
At least, they came from completely utterly useless to weird. That's an improvement.
Although i would change to T1 BS T2 CO (or something else).
I actually Agree with this change quite a lot I'd even be ok with removing the CO entirely as ziks will always build Thiefs no reason to give them 2 ships that target Co it would just make it worse for Co.
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Unread 21 May 2013, 19:21   #125
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Re: Round 52 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
I actually Agree with this change quite a lot I'd even be ok with removing the CO entirely as ziks will always build Thiefs no reason to give them 2 ships that target Co it would just make it worse for Co.


i allso like that change ,


i would like to see 2 more change on zik, change cutlass to steal
and add DE to corsair as T2. i see that it will make corsair fire for for free on DE and i dont like that so much. any ideas to make it so ziks can steal DE as well ?.
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Unread 22 May 2013, 00:03   #126
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Re: Round 52 stats

Latest changes:

Vsharrak emp res 33 -> 41
Pulsar emp res 43 -> 49
Illusion emp res 27 -> 35
Clipper T1 <-> T2
Broker emp resistance 45->54
Tycoon emp resistance 64->66
Baliff emp resistance 47->57
Viper gains T2 of Fr [main point of discussion - Etd Fr are the only ones in their class but they're hard to counter with alliance def]
Note: it might be better to make the Beetle have a Fr T2 but that means tweaking all the emp resistances of all [Co or Fr/De] so that they "overlap" between classes better, due to the way emp resistances have been setup :P
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Last edited by Appocomaster; 22 May 2013 at 00:12.
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Unread 22 May 2013, 03:22   #127
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Re: Round 52 stats

Appoco If you are going to make cath the only race that can 3ship cover all classes with hulls2 then why wouldn't people play it. Atleast split the Targeting over a few Hulls for god sake if Cat Co is 4 targets it will be MASSIVELY popular. And Why are we making Cath Co better vs Fr? FR doesnt even target Co.
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Unread 22 May 2013, 04:46   #128
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Re: Round 52 stats

Number of ships that target:
Fi:6
Co:9
Fr:9
De:7
Cr:7
Bs:8


This needs to be fixed there is 1 Fr attack fleet and it has the most targets. And DE which is one of the strongest team ups only has 7 same with cr?
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Unread 22 May 2013, 05:02   #129
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Re: Round 52 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Being someone who played Xan De in a galaxy of other Xan De who had attack partners who went random playing Terran De i can say that DE was awesome in rd 50. It was a ****ing pain to attack all round, cloaked def + flak made covering very very easy. The only issue we had at all was ETD FR and just had to go down the route of mass pulsar flak, now you can add harpies to that it definatly makes ETD less of an issue (harpies have sick emp res regardless of how hard they fire). You dont need a great deal of Phants (??) to stop Xan FI thats why overall there was very little of it about especially with how epic beetles are against it ( 1 beet fleet completely ruins ANY xan fi attack).

If i was playing or picking an alliance strategy i would probably say DE Fort if the alliance was under 40 and probably a DE/FR/BS mix if it was a bigger alliance. The scatty nature of def fleets in these stats means you dont need to go with one metaclass in a bigger alliance, De and Fr and BS soak up so many def slots to cover them that attacks get through from big alliances all round.
Man look at the fking stats: http://beta.planetarion.com/history/?id=1&round=50 TGV had 2 terrans in the top100, TWO. And in total 2 TGV made top100 xp with these "unstoppable" DE waves. Heck I even joined a TGV wave on fang with deras a few times, but it was usually covered easily. I'm not sure why I even bother trying to explain this, the stats for the round do not lie and they are there for all to see despite what bizzare people have thought up in their bias minds.
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Golan - Ascendancy

Planets.
Zik: 3rd(r30), 4th(r52), 7th(r27), 9th(r26), 31st(r51)
Ter: 3rd(r50), 4th(r53), 4th(r37), 5th(r31) 7th (r58)
Xan: 3rd(r36), 40th(r57) 54th(r33), 104th(r29)
Cat: 8th (r54), 9th(r48), 12th (r55), 20th(r32), 77th(r23), 103rd(r38), 150th(r34), 152nd(r24),
Etd: 14th(r28)

Those damn emp races..
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Unread 22 May 2013, 05:27   #130
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Re: Round 52 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
zotnam u cant really complain about bad research when you choose to go a goverment like corp or tot, its a choice u make. Also xan has worse research than terran and etd got the same research as terran. So basicly there is only 2 races with better research than terran so no reason to complain.

Also terran gotten loads of buffs already probably making them the best race out there atm. If you struggle with ter de vs co, u need to teamup with a xan de. The big cost difference make you godly vs them co incs.

Terran has bad value gain? Did I just respond to a troll, so be it.
Normally I don't respond to terrible players that can't read, but you need all the help you can get. There's only one thing terran is good at: Value. I never said otherwise. But they still really struggle at the start. 130 CP is way too much, especially when the best ter government also adds an insane amount of CP.

I'm talking specifically about these stats where NO other race than terran is completely open to 2 classes of incoming before getting siege. Nothing stunts growth for a slow researching race like having to get siege, you'll mine less roids, you'll land less attacks because you aren't -4, your alliance will be unhappy because you can't def properly. it messes with the whole thing. This isn't exclusive to ter, it is also true for xans in some rounds, like those that went bs in r51. Add to that the need to get infra faster than every other race, and you start to understand why ter is a late game race. Ofc people could just play like you and be a terrible HC while sitting on tt -3 for 800 ticks like you did in ROCK.

Pegs have a d/c of 279, it hits like a used kleenex (which I suggest you use to wipe the tears away with after you read this post), close to 100 less than all terran ships in r51.
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Golan - Ascendancy

Planets.
Zik: 3rd(r30), 4th(r52), 7th(r27), 9th(r26), 31st(r51)
Ter: 3rd(r50), 4th(r53), 4th(r37), 5th(r31) 7th (r58)
Xan: 3rd(r36), 40th(r57) 54th(r33), 104th(r29)
Cat: 8th (r54), 9th(r48), 12th (r55), 20th(r32), 77th(r23), 103rd(r38), 150th(r34), 152nd(r24),
Etd: 14th(r28)

Those damn emp races..
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Unread 22 May 2013, 05:31   #131
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Re: Round 52 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
Latest changes:

Vsharrak emp res 33 -> 41
Pulsar emp res 43 -> 49
Illusion emp res 27 -> 35
Clipper T1 <-> T2
Broker emp resistance 45->54
Tycoon emp resistance 64->66
Baliff emp resistance 47->57
Viper gains T2 of Fr [main point of discussion - Etd Fr are the only ones in their class but they're hard to counter with alliance def]
Note: it might be better to make the Beetle have a Fr T2 but that means tweaking all the emp resistances of all [Co or Fr/De] so that they "overlap" between classes better, due to the way emp resistances have been setup :P
This is truely terrible and I think after 51 rounds we should all expect better from you. Basically you've made cath better against all it's weak spots (fr/cr/bs) in a round that was already dominated by cath. The stats might look like zik dominated, but they were pushed that high because of cath being insanely good at covering their holes.
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Golan - Ascendancy

Planets.
Zik: 3rd(r30), 4th(r52), 7th(r27), 9th(r26), 31st(r51)
Ter: 3rd(r50), 4th(r53), 4th(r37), 5th(r31) 7th (r58)
Xan: 3rd(r36), 40th(r57) 54th(r33), 104th(r29)
Cat: 8th (r54), 9th(r48), 12th (r55), 20th(r32), 77th(r23), 103rd(r38), 150th(r34), 152nd(r24),
Etd: 14th(r28)

Those damn emp races..
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Unread 22 May 2013, 08:03   #132
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Re: Round 52 stats

Holy Viper. I try to keep from exaggerating on this forum, but I think Golan has the right of it. Terrible.
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Unread 22 May 2013, 08:23   #133
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Re: Round 52 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotnam View Post
Man look at the fking stats: http://beta.planetarion.com/history/?id=1&round=50 TGV had 2 terrans in the top100, TWO. And in total 2 TGV made top100 xp with these "unstoppable" DE waves. Heck I even joined a TGV wave on fang with deras a few times, but it was usually covered easily. I'm not sure why I even bother trying to explain this, the stats for the round do not lie and they are there for all to see despite what bizzare people have thought up in their bias minds.
And if you look at the round stats you will see Terran DE was massively underpicked because of its weaknesses. This doesnt take away from the fact that DE was awesome. I actually think only 3 TGV played Terran, and 2 of those finished t100, actually says a lot. TGV has never played XP so the t100 xp stat doesnt surprise me. If you look at the Xans tho, of which i think made up 95% of TGV's DE fleets then most of them finished t100 and all had high value ranks too. This was done with the help of 2-4 Terran DE fleets, now imagine if you had 10 or 15!!
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Unread 22 May 2013, 08:30   #134
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Re: Round 52 stats

To zotnam:

Had to use a kleenex :,( no way to avoid crying after learning how awful you are at stats.

Yes terran has worse dc than in r51, so does the others. Comparing one ship from one round to another rarely does any good.
Corsair r51: FR/DE 526 ac 614 dc
Corsair r52: FR 531 ac 372 dc.
Clearly appoco should double corsair dmg for r52? no wait its the best anti fr for a non fort ally in r52 already(disregarding the viper which hopefully will change).

Terran isnt completely open to 2 classes before hulls 3, they are open to 1 (DE), and so is etd, zik is completely open to cr before hulls3, and cat was open to fr before hulls 3 before this ridiculus viper change. So to me it seems all races(except xan which has the worst research) was completely open to 1 class


To appoco:
You cant do this with the viper. Now cath can build 3 ships cover all classes and defend in ally aswell.
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Unread 22 May 2013, 08:33   #135
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Re: Round 52 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotnam View Post
I'm talking specifically about these stats where NO other race than terran is completely open to 2 classes of incoming before getting siege.
De and ...?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
Number of ships that target:
Fi:6
Co:9
Fr:9
De:7
Cr:7
Bs:8


This needs to be fixed there is 1 Fr attack fleet and it has the most targets. And DE which is one of the strongest team ups only has 7 same with cr?
If we drop the viper, we see that we have:

Fr T1: 5 (of which 3 are Fi firing after Rangers, the other 2 aren't ally def)
Fr T2: 4 (of which 1 is Fi firing after Rangers, the other 2 aren't ally def)

Do the same for De (3 T1 ships, +1 eta on alliance def, firing on same / earlier init) and you'll see that sometimes the number is less important


and just generally, I said Viper was controversial. I didn't say I was sticking with it. Happy to drop it. Fr is just one of the hardest fleets to stop from an alliance def point of view
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Unread 22 May 2013, 09:27   #136
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Re: Round 52 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
Fr is just one of the hardest fleets to stop from an alliance def point of view
I think (and i havent paid massive attention to other ETD changes you have made) that that was the point of FR tho. ETD was massively underchosen in rd50 because it had LOTS of holes defensively and didnt offer much on alliance defence. As a concession to this it was given the Ranger, a ship that was an absolute bitch to stop and still is. This meant that ETD could roid and XP gain easily but was very open to losing those roids without help from lots of friends.

** From a quick look i can see that the Tycoon change has made it almost immune to CR now but apart from that it is still awful on defence (the investor is probably the only ship a DC would ask for and its only an emp ship so doesnt really 'deter' incs)
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Unread 22 May 2013, 14:11   #137
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Re: Round 52 stats

that viperchange is not good. seems like you're intent on "plugging the holes" while the stats were made with just those in mind.

Also when's terran getting some solid firepower? not necessarily this round, but any round^^ I'd love to play terran again without it just being flying a/c :P
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Unread 22 May 2013, 17:58   #138
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Re: Round 52 stats

bass its not like he tryes to plug the holes, ETD FR had free farm, they did shoot be4 anything else (but broker and roaches) made em to powerfull.

if you let etd FR shoot be4 everything he should alest make Xan fi shoot @ fr first alest

anyway, i would like to see spider have the fr T2 insted but i undertsand thats alot of work to make that happen.
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Unread 22 May 2013, 18:35   #139
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Re: Round 52 stats

Actually Spider firing at Fr t2 isnt that bad a compromise. Every other race has a Fi ship that targets FR so why not cat?? It removes the '3 ships covers all' aspect from Cat too.

Its not that much work, it doesnt need to be effective, just helpful and pose another option to Cat's...
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Unread 22 May 2013, 18:47   #140
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Re: Round 52 stats

if you put fr on spider u need to rework all the ships in the game, since fr ships got lower e/r than co, thats why the spider got 3x the guns of the viper.
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Unread 22 May 2013, 18:57   #141
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Re: Round 52 stats

These stats weren't bad to begin with, why butcher them

Cath only having to build three ships is unacceptable.
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Unread 22 May 2013, 18:58   #142
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Re: Round 52 stats

etd having a really good roiding fleet, but not much else is terms of def is part of the stats, if you give antifr buffs you really need to buff etds def too...oh wait we're talking about a whole different set of stats already.
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Unread 22 May 2013, 23:46   #143
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Re: Round 52 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
De and ...?

If we drop the viper, we see that we have:

Fr T1: 5 (of which 3 are Fi firing after Rangers, the other 2 aren't ally def)
Fr T2: 4 (of which 1 is Fi firing after Rangers, the other 2 aren't ally def)

Do the same for De (3 T1 ships, +1 eta on alliance def, firing on same / earlier init) and you'll see that sometimes the number is less important


and just generally, I said Viper was controversial. I didn't say I was sticking with it. Happy to drop it. Fr is just one of the hardest fleets to stop from an alliance def point of view
FR and DE obviously, I know Harpy have t2 FR NOW, but there's only one reason to build Harpy and that is to use them for fakes.. If you try to stop FR that way, I got no words..

Roaches shooting before Investors is a huge deal and it's really really good at forcing Cath to build a somewhat balanced fleet. DE is not as strong as people seem to think, there's so much that targets it. Cath has 4 ships with t2, etd and xan has 2, ter and zik 3. Ideally it should be around the same, maybe with cath having fewer than the other races because they still emp amazingly well @ t2. Tzen's are now 100% redundant and we should add another xan ships that actually gets built, maybe an anti-fi DE.

About etd: If you don't get pl def for FR incoming, you're more or less ****ed for ally def. I'm okay with that as a mechanism since it's the same for everyone and etd is fairly weak in all other aspects. That's one of the staples of these stats, and if you didn't want that you should have picked another set to reuse. I'd probably give one of the two etd FI a t2 CO, Dealers are pretty terrible and have no natural flak, so this at least give them a slightly less terrible alternative to build. I love the concept of FI stealing FI though
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Planets.
Zik: 3rd(r30), 4th(r52), 7th(r27), 9th(r26), 31st(r51)
Ter: 3rd(r50), 4th(r53), 4th(r37), 5th(r31) 7th (r58)
Xan: 3rd(r36), 40th(r57) 54th(r33), 104th(r29)
Cat: 8th (r54), 9th(r48), 12th (r55), 20th(r32), 77th(r23), 103rd(r38), 150th(r34), 152nd(r24),
Etd: 14th(r28)

Those damn emp races..

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Unread 23 May 2013, 00:03   #144
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Re: Round 52 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
To zotnam:

Yes terran has worse dc than in r51, so does the others. Comparing one ship from one round to another rarely does any good.
Corsair r51: FR/DE 526 ac 614 dc
Corsair r52: FR 531 ac 372 dc.
Clearly appoco should double corsair dmg for r52? no wait its the best anti fr for a non fort ally in r52 already(disregarding the viper which hopefully will change).
You can't compare steal DC to normal ship's DC. That being said, yes, zik in r51 was way better than zik in r50. The difference was, like I talked about earlier, synergy. There was amazing synergy in r50 for Zik, while in r51 the best way to support zik was by adding more zik. No alliance went heavy zik in r51 (which would have been amazing btw, except for crashers), so the race as a whole suffered. Incidentally, that was also what worked in r30 when the stats were originally used, and indeed one of the biggest reasons Asc won that round.
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Golan - Ascendancy

Planets.
Zik: 3rd(r30), 4th(r52), 7th(r27), 9th(r26), 31st(r51)
Ter: 3rd(r50), 4th(r53), 4th(r37), 5th(r31) 7th (r58)
Xan: 3rd(r36), 40th(r57) 54th(r33), 104th(r29)
Cat: 8th (r54), 9th(r48), 12th (r55), 20th(r32), 77th(r23), 103rd(r38), 150th(r34), 152nd(r24),
Etd: 14th(r28)

Those damn emp races..
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Unread 23 May 2013, 07:27   #145
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Re: Round 52 stats

sure u can, normal doesn't do u any good over steal when the ranger fire first nyway. What u cant do is compare ac and dc head to head over different rounds, as it doesn't make sense to compare one single attribute unless the rounds are ridiculously similar.

complaining over terran not having anti fr before hulls 3 just because you dont wanna spread out the wyv/peg value is absolutely no reason to hate on a good ship like the harpy. good vs co and good vs fr. Harpy is a better anti fr than pulsar, and pulsar is the only anti fr xan got, and its just as good anti fr as a merchant if you count in the extra salvage from terran. And merchant is only a anti fr, harpy got a t1 anti co aswell on it. Face it. Terrans will get the least amount of incs this round and thats a great attribute, it also got 2 great options for a roid fleet and a epic construction rate.
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Unread 23 May 2013, 07:56   #146
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Re: Round 52 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotnam View Post
Tzen's are now 100% redundant and we should add another xan ships that actually gets built, maybe an anti-fi DE.
I assume you mean Bolt Thrower? As a Fr? I kind of like that idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
complaining over terran not having anti fr before hulls 3 just because you dont wanna spread out the wyv/peg value is absolutely no reason to hate on a good ship like the harpy.
Golan's argument is that cripples your research, it's not about spreading value.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
Harpy is a better anti fr than pulsar
While technically true, only a fool will build Harpies in those kind of numbers. If you have a third of your value in a single def ship (which is what it takes to outflak Rangers) will cripple your entire round. Xan don't have that problem, because the Pulsar is in the roiding fleet with plenty of flak.
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Unread 23 May 2013, 08:52   #147
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Re: Round 52 stats

Rly? 7 guns on the Beetle and 1 on Viper?
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Unread 23 May 2013, 09:18   #148
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Re: Round 52 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoulS View Post
Rly? 7 guns on the Beetle and 1 on Viper?
Try using a bcalc before coming here to be outraged.

(Anti-De guns are more efficient than anti-Fi/Co guns because De is more expensive.)
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Unread 23 May 2013, 09:35   #149
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Re: Round 52 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Xan don't have that problem, because the Pulsar is in the roiding fleet with plenty of flak.
It is in A roiding fleet, its not in THE roiding fleet. Xan fi is not a viable attack fleet with the power of beets and thief. It also has no attack partner and cannot hit ETD or Xan. So yeah it has 1 race it can attack, Terran and tbh Xan DE has far more attacking options so why would anyone use Fi??

Xans will probably have 40% value in defence and that will be split 20% Phant, 40% Pulsar, 40% Arrowhead.

The harpy is a good ship and yes although it wont be built en masse it is a suffiecent tank to allow pulsars and merchants to hit Rangers hard. Its how it was used last round (effectively) when it didnt even target FR, so that added targetting just improves it as a ship
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Unread 23 May 2013, 10:18   #150
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Re: Round 52 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
It is in A roiding fleet, its not in THE roiding fleet. Xan fi is not a viable attack fleet with the power of beets and thief. It also has no attack partner and cannot hit ETD or Xan. So yeah it has 1 race it can attack, Terran and tbh Xan DE has far more attacking options so why would anyone use Fi??
Thief/Inforza has been weakened significantly and Xan Fi ERes has been buffed for r52. Xan Fi can straight up hit Ter De and Bs, Cat Cr and Zik Cr. Fi-as-De fakes worked well in r50 and will work even better this round. You can fake against Ter, Cat, Zik Cr, Etd Bs and Xan De (if they follow your advice of having 8% fleet value in Vsharrak).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Xans will probably have 40% value in defence and that will be split 20% Phant, 40% Pulsar, 40% Arrowhead.
Why do people keep making up ships.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
The harpy is a good ship and yes although it wont be built en masse it is a suffiecent tank to allow pulsars and merchants to hit Rangers hard. Its how it was used last round (effectively) when it didnt even target FR, so that added targetting just improves it as a ship
No, that is not how the combat engine works. Ships with low armor are flak, and the high armor ship gets to fire.
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