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Unread 14 Apr 2013, 19:50   #51
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Re: New MH team / head of MH team?

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Originally Posted by Monroe View Post
The PA team is a team of equals, none can force another to resign. As long as Ace chooses to stay and does not break the PA Team rules there is very little that can be done to remove him even should the other PA Team members wish to do so.
That's very true the members of PA team cant remove another member of the PA Team unless he breaks the rules etc (even though some individuals have shown some blatant inconsistency in the way they run things)

However, although I know the current owners rarely show there face these days within this game or don't show any interest in it what so ever but surely they have say over who controls/runs there game? And forgive me but I consider the 2 most important areas in this game to be the coding side/general maintenance (obviously) and the policing side of the rules. So therefore maybe if there is constant issues they should review there staff.

Hi all btw its been a while
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Unread 15 Apr 2013, 18:23   #52
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Re: New MH team / head of MH team?

there is a lot of blame for Ace, and the MHs in general, here but i dont think that is the biggest issue.

the set of rules within which they work is stupid. the whole "we cant give details because of data protection blah blah" is nonsense.

the entire process needs to be way more transparent.
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Unread 14 May 2013, 10:15   #53
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Re: New MH team / head of MH team?

I have been quick-reading this thread. I used to be an MH for about 18 rounds and started one round earlier then Ace (or two?).

Before any of you go flame at me for doing something bad 100 years ago: Yes, every MH makes mistakes, including me, and if i have wronged you in the past, I hereby apologize. Don't misread this for: if i ever upset you, i'm sorry. Thats not the case. I am apologizing for punishing anyone who didn't deserve the punishment ACCORDING TO THE RULES at that time.

There, that's out of the way, so maybe now I can add my two cents without ppl falling all over me about something that I can't even remember.

Let me start by giving you a few statements about MH and their job. Please mind that I started playing again in round 35-ish or so, so I have no clue as to what has changed in the tools since.
  • MH have a terrible job. People only have to deal with them if something bad happens: you are punished or about to be.
  • There was never a hardcoded exception punishment system in my time, just a system that would log and display interactions. Exceptions are recorded, but no automatic punishment is given.
  • The exception system is only valid for times when 2 or more people play from the same IP, NOT when they play from different IPs. In my case, I would be free to defend, attack with my wife while being at work, but had to think about interactions with my wife while being home. Sometimes this was a nuisance, but never a real problem.
  • Of course everyone hates Ace. He does impopular things. Also, the majority of the whiners about MH are those who got punished for somsehting. People have a tendency to blame everyone else for their own mistakes or 'crimes'
  • I do think that every multihunter (or in fact, PA Team member) should periodically play a round and thus take off a round from PA Team responsibilities, to stay connected to the community and the game. I only discovered how much the game had changed when i got back after 18 rounds.
  • Calling Ace a cancer is despisable. Tbh, i think its worse then any crap decisions Ace ever took or might have taken.
  • The constant complaining about unclear rules is nonsense. The rules are clearly in the EULA/Manual. Every MH must abide by them and should be corrected if he or she does not follow the rules and should be fired if not following them repeatedly
  • Some rules are by their very nature subjective, like any rule about abusive behaviour for example. All is in the eye of the beholder.
  • The fact that players who get punished can appeal their case is fairly uncommon for online games. The fact PA even has such a mechanism is good.
  • The constant call for more publicly announced cases, punishments and naming naughty players is understandable, but in most cases undesired; people have a right to privacy, even when they did something wrong. There are probably a lot of legal issues with publicly providing information. Some players state that if they themselves give permission to go in the open about their own case, this should be done. However, doing so might unwantingly expose others involved in the case who DO value privacy.
  • Also, publicly discussed cases will only lead to endless bickering, flaming and naming. How would that be productive?
  • PA Team/MH Team should always re-evaluate their rules (between rounds) and change them where needed AND ANNOUNCE THE CHANGES.
  • MH should always treat players with respect no matter what they have done wrong. In my time I tried to do so, but sometimes miserably failed (sorry ;p ). However, players should treat MH with respect too, and I fully understand the MH irritation or even anger with certain players; it is no fun to be called a cancer, a nazi, a whore, hitler, or whatever.
  • I personally did not think Ace was arrogant or something when iI was his collegue. Sure, sometimes he (and every other past, current or future MH) can act the dick, but hey, have you looked in the mirror lately? In my experience, the physics law applies here too: Action=-Reaction; You get what you give. I personally have had very polite appeals in the MH channels, where we totally diagreed on a case, but those nice players in the end stayed polite. I could always udnerstand anger, but you can be angered without becoming a total asshole

If you really think Ace is overstepping his boundaries and behaving unprofessionally (and you weren't calling him a cancer.....) you should file a complaint with PA Team or Jagex (i know i know, they don't care probably) and the PA Team should evaluate and take appropriate measures.
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Last edited by Remy; 14 May 2013 at 10:28.
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Unread 14 May 2013, 11:55   #54
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Re: New MH team / head of MH team?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remy View Post
  • The constant complaining about unclear rules is nonsense. The rules are clearly in the EULA/Manual. Every MH must abide by them and should be corrected if he or she does not follow the rules and should be fired if not following them repeatedly
  • Some rules are by their very nature subjective, like any rule about abusive behaviour for example. All is in the eye of the beholder.
  • The fact that players who get punished can appeal their case is fairly uncommon for online games. The fact PA even has such a mechanism is good.
  • The constant call for more publicly announced cases, punishments and naming naughty players is understandable, but in most cases undesired; people have a right to privacy, even when they did something wrong. There are probably a lot of legal issues with publicly providing information. Some players state that if they themselves give permission to go in the open about their own case, this should be done. However, doing so might unwantingly expose others involved in the case who DO value privacy.
  • Also, publicly discussed cases will only lead to endless bickering, flaming and naming. How would that be productive?
  • PA Team/MH Team should always re-evaluate their rules (between rounds) and change them where needed AND ANNOUNCE THE CHANGES.

If you really think Ace is overstepping his boundaries and behaving unprofessionally (and you weren't calling him a cancer.....) you should file a complaint with PA Team or Jagex (i know i know, they don't care probably) and the PA Team should evaluate and take appropriate measures.
The ability to appeal your case is indeed a good thing. However i wouldn't call it appealling, but pleading, as appealling would require a second opinion on the punishment given by a neutral authority.

Generally speaking (criminal) courtcases are part of public records. On one hand this helps the acquitted as the public trusts in the workings of the court. Should anyone still (publicly) discriminate the acquitted he can usually sue them, with the courtruling in hand. It also helps protect the respect for the court, as judges have to provide a full reasoning for any decision where they don't sentence in accordance to the law. This helps the public understand inconsequent decision making.
I genuinely don't think opening up the privacy of MH decision making will lead to increased flaming, in fact i think it will be quite the opposite. MH shouldn't publicly discuss cases, but their rulings (and reasoning behind these) should be public record. If privacy really is a greater issue to Jagex/PA-Team/MH-Team these public records could be anonymized.
In summary, it will help restore respect for the MH team, it will help reduce inconsequent rulings as MH's will be more aware of prior rulings, it will help acquitted players keep their reputation in the community. The only reason not to make things publicly is because i think MH's fear it will confirm favouratism and ill-reasoned inconsequent rulings.

I can take the recent case against Baddars as an example. The community(myself included) accused him of cheating(farming) when he sent his pods at JungleMuffin and landed on a hidden fleet, while a number of waves before the fleet had been fighting. MH's ruled it was not farming, as JM was closed in the last 2 ticks up to Baddars' landing and at the time of the closure his fleet was on run and hide. Therefor, JM wasn't able to have his fleet fight even if he wanted to. The accusers were never given any explanation why Baddars wasn't closed and as a result Baddars' name was continued to be dragged through the mud for the remainder of his round. Being accused severely damaged his reputation(in Baddars opinion), and not being properly acquitted didn't help fix it.
Furthermore, if Baddars' had not been aware of the accusations made against him, he wouldn't have gone to MH's to plead his case, and not even he would have known why he wasn't closed, over what understandably seemed like farming. This could have come back to haunt him for rounds to come without ever being given a proper chance to defend himself against the accusations, and face his accusers.
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Unread 14 May 2013, 12:01   #55
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Re: New MH team / head of MH team?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remy View Post
The exception system is only valid for times when 2 or more people play from the same IP, NOT when they play from different IPs. In my case, I would be free to defend, attack with my wife while being at work, but had to think about interactions with my wife while being home. Sometimes this was a nuisance, but never a real problem.
That is really, really stupid. It was stupid when you were MH, and it's stupider now, considering that by now, just about everyone has multiple ways to access the internet. Multis are no longer the neighbour, or your computer at work. It's your smartphone and your tablet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitler! View Post
Of course everyone hates Ace. He does impopular things. Also, the majority of the whiners about MH are those who got punished for somsehting. People have a tendency to blame everyone else for their own mistakes or 'crimes'
(...)
MH should always treat players with respect no matter what they have done wrong. In my time I tried to do so, but sometimes miserably failed (sorry ;p ). However, players should treat MH with respect too, and I fully understand the MH irritation or even anger with certain players; it is no fun to be called a cancer, a nazi, a whore, hitler, or whatever.
People don't dislike the MHs for the actual decisions they make, they're usually correct.

For the most part, the complaints have to do with their attitude towards players. People don't like to be treated like a school kid being lectured by an angry teacher. The MHs have a culture of talking down to people. It's not Ace or any other specific individual. It's a systemic problem. A good example is the "you know what you did wrong, now tell me what is is so I can punish you" speech, which has been a staple of MH arrogance for as long as I can remember. If you can't tell me what I did wrong, then I did nothing wrong. Shit pisses me off, and I haven't even had one directed at me in at least 20 rounds.

Treat players like they're grown up human beings and they'll return the favour. If they don't, you can punish them. But if you act like a jerk, you don't have a foot to stand on when players retaliate. The MHs have the power, certainly, but not the moral high ground.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remy View Post
I do think that every multihunter (or in fact, PA Team member) should periodically play a round and thus take off a round from PA Team responsibilities, to stay connected to the community and the game. I only discovered how much the game had changed when i got back after 18 rounds.
This is a really good idea. You could even extend that to limiting the time people can be a multihunter or PA Team member. There are some practical concerns, though, like having enough volunteers to be able to implement such a limit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remy View Post
The fact that players who get punished can appeal their case is fairly uncommon for online games. The fact PA even has such a mechanism is good.
Being required to listen to a lecture does not an appeal mechanism make. I say required, because last I checked, and you get punished further if you refuse to heed their summons. I refer to the teacher analogy above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remy View Post
The constant call for more publicly announced cases, punishments and naming naughty players is understandable, but in most cases undesired; people have a right to privacy, even when they did something wrong. There are probably a lot of legal issues with publicly providing information. Some players state that if they themselves give permission to go in the open about their own case, this should be done. However, doing so might unwantingly expose others involved in the case who DO value privacy.
Any legal issues can be covered by the EULA. That said, I do think that the policy of non-disclosure is a correct one, generally speaking. I think it would be acceptable to have exceptions to that policy, though, for example for cases that cause changes in the rules, or cases that influence many people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remy View Post
Also, publicly discussed cases will only lead to endless bickering, flaming and naming. How would that be productive?
Phew. Nipped that one in the bud!
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Unread 14 May 2013, 13:02   #56
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Re: New MH team / head of MH team?

Exception system:

I agree it is stupid, but i wasn't discussing the stupidity of rules, I was merely pointing out how it works to someone who posted stuff earlier in the thread that was incorrect.

As former MH I know that the exception system is basicly bollox, except that it helps to stop (cheating) people who are to dumb to cheat properly.

Disliking the MHs

I know from stories that some MHs are prone to act arrogantly, but since I basicly never had any dealings with them after I left MH, I have no clue how they act for real. The only thing that I know is from when I was MH myself, and I remember times where MHs would comment on arrogant behaviour of their collegues. Also, forgetting the occasional bad hair day i had, I think i always tried to be professional myself. About the fact that MHs apparently ask 'What do you think you did wrong' is a valid method sometimes to lure people into admitting their wrongdoings. The police use it all the time :P

Appeal

In my time defending yourself was required only if you thought you were unjustly accused. So, if you got accused/warned/closed, the punishment was already set, unless a player could properly turn it into reasonable doubt. So in reality, it wasnt teh punishment getting bigger if you didnt show up, it was like enforcing the already set punishment

Disclosure

I agree that at least some general stats should be made public, and that rule-changing cases should be publicized (anonymized)
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Unread 14 May 2013, 13:03   #57
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Re: New MH team / head of MH team?

And yes, pleading is better then appealing. Appealing your case in my time was that another MH would give a second opinion however.
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Unread 18 May 2013, 13:07   #58
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Re: New MH team / head of MH team?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remy View Post
[*]There was never a hardcoded exception punishment system in my time, just a system that would log and display interactions. Exceptions are recorded, but no automatic punishment is given.[*]The exception system is only valid for times when 2 or more people play from the same IP, NOT when they play from different IPs. In my case, I would be free to defend, attack with my wife while being at work, but had to think about interactions with my wife while being home. Sometimes this was a nuisance, but never a real problem.
.
Correct, there was never a hard coded system to punish people, however, there used to be when i was a MH a hard coded exception system into the game stopping players interacting so the MHs didnt need to do any policing with this subject. Other then of course the people who didnt apply to be put into the exception system. Once you were part of this proccess it stopped you doing certain things automatically. Beleive the PA Team removed it due too the community didnt like controlling factor.
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