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Unread 18 Apr 2004, 23:32   #51
Zh|l
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Re: Mentor Team

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
We kind of had that in PAX, just it really didnt work half the players stayed in the trail universe and never joined the main one . Why stay small in the main universe when you cna be big in the trail one
That's the point though. "Big" doesnt exist in the trial one. You know the game I'm on about is F e r i o n, getting 10 planets in that is nothing - 2 systems max worth of planets.
Just do it like a guided tutorial really, less freedom sure, but its not supposed to be somewhere to actually play - just pick up the basics of the game.
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Unread 18 Apr 2004, 23:53   #52
mist
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Re: Mentor Team

i think the origonal idea of the mentoring thing was to teach newbies how to play, and get them in to some form of alliance to help fend off the big planets. don't think using celebrity was really part of it

personally, i think that some 'set piece' drills on a private game would be the most efficient way of doing things. one of the problems wiht planetarion is that mistakes tend to be expensive, so either zhil's short rounds with severe limitations, or set pieces where someone with a clue can take newbies through the drills without it havin any affect on the real game (and hence being less biased) would be useful

at the end of the day tho, there's nothing you can do to help someone who logs on once a day, once every couple of days. with the current game system, they're dogmeat whatever

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Unread 19 Apr 2004, 00:17   #53
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Re: Mentor Team

I think this requires one of my rare posts.

my reasons for doing so i will not discuss, but i have basically taken up a mentor position with an alliance. In the space of one day, they have gone from having 1 public channel, barely registered with P, and not a damn clue how to setup an alliance, an IRC channel.

They now have 2 channels, have made an attempt at a recruitment post on the forums (though needs work) and have a basic infrastructure in place, and an idea on what to do with it!

I AM an active member of another alliance, and simply i have not informed the smaller alliance which one i am in. So far, i have given advice on how to get their alliance off the ground, and they have quite frankly taken one hell of a big leap in less than 12 hours.

They are by no means ready to "take on the universe" and have little chance of getting anywhere this round. But they themselves have decided to "test the water" this round, and to go for it next round.

It has to be said, it is difficult for my alliance, as there has already been arguements over my involvement. But for the smaller alliance, it has become invaluable. For me, it was vaguely satisfying to see a days worth of work paying off, though it was somewhat time consuming in this first step for me.

This position would best suit a retired player, with strong links to an alliance.

I would also suggest that for those interested solely in helping others, special free accounts could be setup, with limited abilities (eg, static resource-intake, permanant protection period, no ship-building capabilities, while scan tech-tree remains the same, along with covert ops), and added communication options, such as multiple alliance access, and other things im probably too tired to think of.

Thats my titbit over. Back to reality...

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Unread 19 Apr 2004, 00:57   #54
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Re: Mentor Team

well leme see :
1:i defintly state that the entors shiuld have decent aliance.Thise will help him more in the matter of teaching
2:The idea of another universe will be ok,and there the mentir would have another planet,aliancelss and there he can help the n00bs.After a n00b has been promoted to Not-N00b he can then move in the big universe and the mentor wouldnt know nothing from him again
3:N00b classes.Hmmm this idea is cool,i will like to have a class with n00bs(and maybe tprture them like my teachers do :P j/k ofc),the place to do it is ofc on irc and if the n00b dont know how to use irc teach him
How To teach?simple,follow the example of ur school teacher
What to teach?simple,what makes u be the best
Well enogh said atm but remember: Want to help a poor guy eat?Dont give him money,give him a fishing rod and teach him to fish(romanian old sayng)
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Unread 19 Apr 2004, 02:29   #55
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Re: Mentor Team

brimstone : same here. i took an alliance and most likely 10-20 of them or maybe more will play next round and maybe a little bit more hardcore in their current alliance.
they are setting up the structure with my advices as we speak, in the technical support, im getting them whatever they need.
And i find it very very satisfacting. the senior mentor will have to get more than communication tools, he will need certain tools, to track his new player and alliance and check up on his other mentors.
Mentors will need to be allianceless. not only because of the bias, but also because i dont see someone involved in DCing or BCing being a mentor also, just to be mentor alone take alot of your time.
My standart for a Senior mentor or mentor not only are almost the same what wakey stated earlier, but i am adding some severe restriction. a mentor will have to lead example and be clean and show dedication to the new player.

Now motanu, i would really appreciate if you would stop using "n00b" in forum or in front of the new player, they are in fact maybe new to the game but with the appropriate time and lesson they could beat you down the ground and roid you
the thing is we need also to change our manner and how we speak to them or treat them, a lot of them are scared.

they take us as the hardcore and they are scared to even come to us.
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Unread 19 Apr 2004, 03:58   #56
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Re: Mentor Team

Quote:
[04:49] <[FAnG]alch> reply
[04:49] <[FAnG]alch>
[04:49] <Chimpie> tho i told Kal he could paste log/quote me
[04:49] <[FAnG]alch> no
[04:49] <[FAnG]alch> reply
So sorry about this reply, but dont have time to make it better, hope you dont mind being quoted Kal.

Quote:
Session Start: Sun Apr 18 20:07:12 2004
Session Ident: Kal
[20:07] Session Ident: Kal ([email protected])
[20:07] <Kal> reply to the forums thread :P
[20:07] <Chimpie|away> lo
[20:07] <Chimpie|away> the mentor thingy?
[20:07] <Kal> yes
[20:07] <Chimpie|away> too much to read first
[20:08] <Chimpie|away> and my eyes are scrwed
[20:08] <Kal> do as u r told
[20:08] <Chimpie|away> *drank too much yesterday
[20:08] <Chimpie|away> EVE style?
[20:09] <Kal> eve has mentors?
[20:09] <Chimpie|away> polaris program
[20:09] <Chimpie|away> yes
[20:09] <Kal> damn why didn;t anyone tell me :P
[20:11] <Chimpie|away> it wouldnt be a problem to set 2 channels, one for player help, one for alliancehelp. Where ppl with experience can be asked for advice and help. Ofc this would require some strict bosses in the room to chase away every goddamn flamer that doesnt help in a constructive way
[20:11] <Kal> could also have some mentors allwoed ot be in alliances i.e. thosoe for player help
[20:11] <Chimpie|away> nah
[20:12] <Chimpie|away> wont help much, and i wouldnt trust the mentors to be as healthy as they think,
[20:12] <Chimpie|away> scandals of backstabbing mentors
[20:12] <Chimpie|away> exploiting small/new alliance by working secretly for other allainces
[20:12] <Chimpie|away> *alliances
[20:13] <Chimpie|away> we'll just end up with a load of new "bad guys"
[20:13] <Kal> i eman only the player mentors would be allwoed to kepp alliances
[20:13] <Chimpie|away> and thats something the game doesnt need
[20:13] <Kal> allaince emntors woudl ahve to be allainceless
[20:14] <Chimpie|away> a mentor should work as an advicor, not in a way where he can grab "power and fame/reputation"
[20:14] <Chimpie|away> limit it to "a helpline/channel" where you can ask for advices, and get them
[20:15] <Chimpie|away> ï wouldnt give some of the old players the opporturnity to exploit/manipulate small alliances
[20:15] <Chimpie|away> my opinion
[20:15] <Chimpie|away> but
[20:16] <Chimpie|away> i'm too lazy to reply in the thread, if you want to, you can quote this on the forum, but i wont post myself
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Unread 19 Apr 2004, 07:56   #57
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Re: Mentor Team

I agree with what brimstone and alch have been doing atm - it really is small things that sme of the new allainces need help with, and I believe that a lot of things can be improved for them.

There are two parts to this - helping new alliances get off the ground, and helping new players get started.

It is the helping new alliances that requires some sort of neutrallity and some kingd of access to the new passport system. There are very few alliances that can be helped atm simply becuase it is really hard to track them down - that is in essence all we are asking for - a way to contact people so we can help them.

As for helping new players, I think zhil's idea of classes and things like that is the way forward - BUT if that was used on conjuction with mentors being in the new allainces who want help - it may actually be possible to get all the new players to actually come on irc to goto the classes
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Unread 19 Apr 2004, 10:50   #58
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Re: Mentor Team

I'm more than happy to be someone's mentor, been here since round one. I may not have been top 10 but I've experience in alliances, support, clusters etc...

I think it's a great idea Alch.
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Unread 19 Apr 2004, 11:14   #59
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Thumbs down Re: Mentor Team

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zh|l
That's the point though. "Big" doesnt exist in the trial one. You know the game I'm on about is F e r i o n, getting 10 planets in that is nothing - 2 systems max worth of planets.
Just do it like a guided tutorial really, less freedom sure, but its not supposed to be somewhere to actually play - just pick up the basics of the game.
When I said big I was talking big in comparision to those in the free universe, theres always going to be someone whos ruling the roost even with limititations and as mist mentions this game is such that one mistake destroys your round and that one person bashing you can see you flushing £10 down the drain. What happened in PAX was simply that these free players had accounts that were nothing special in the full universe but were top of the pile in the free one, those who took the plunge and joined the full universe were thrown into a war zone where they had little chance of progressing. Its not exactly a good adverisment for upgrading to the full universe

Quote:
Originally Posted by KalVirtus
I agree with what brimstone and alch have been doing atm - it really is small things that sme of the new allainces need help with, and I believe that a lot of things can be improved for them.

There are two parts to this - helping new alliances get off the ground, and helping new players get started.

It is the helping new alliances that requires some sort of neutrallity and some kingd of access to the new passport system. There are very few alliances that can be helped atm simply becuase it is really hard to track them down - that is in essence all we are asking for - a way to contact people so we can help them.

As for helping new players, I think zhil's idea of classes and things like that is the way forward - BUT if that was used on conjuction with mentors being in the new allainces who want help - it may actually be possible to get all the new players to actually come on irc to goto the classes
The problem is what Brim and alch are doing isnt new , it happens every round but that doesnt make this idea viable. As I said to alch on irc its simply not the same situation where your helping people out on a part time basis while continuing playing with your alliance that gives you the chance of having an 'enjoyable' round and if anyone knows this its myself.

Without being too big headed here, I think its pretty safe to say that if we drew up a list of people who had helped out small players and alliances the most my name would come out somewhere right at the top. I know the small players and alliance better than most of the people on this forum, I know what they have to go through, I know where they struggle and most importantly I know what its like to help them and how much fun it can be when your having a 'goodish' and enjoyable round and how hard it can be when your struggling. And trust me any player without a good community to back them up is going to struggle in this game, you wont even have a fun community to fall back on because it takes time to develop these so those youyr helping will no doubt lack the community aspects of an established alliance. Basing your views on the fact that alch having fun doing this in the situation hes in atm simply isnt enough as hes not in the situation now that this idea would put him in. You in particular Kal could do with spending a round helping a small alliance off your own back without using any contacts you have or being a member of another alliance to get a reality check, perhaps then when you realise resigning yourself to a bad round isnt a bed of roses you might actually wake up and realise the only reason most people would signup for this is a)they are like yourself and dont have a clue b) they are simply after the position.

This kind of aid either has to allow mentors to keep their current positions in alliances, after all if we are to believe people can be unbiased if they leave their alliances why cant we believe that they can be unbiased while also in it, After all the two things arent exclusive, people can put their own personal feeling to the background , OR it needs to remain unofficial where people are helping because they wish to help and not just for the title. Otherwise this will be a system that is made up of under qualified and under motivated people. if you want to make it official it has to have the best people involved which means giving them a reason to take part and leaving their alliance doesnt give them a reason.

Oh and you all seem to be talking as if this is a magic solution to PA's problems, however what you seem to fail to realise is that PA is full of good players at the lower end, and theres many well run alliances down there also (and theres even more good players who have quit). Such actions do very little to help them or in reality help new players either, as mist said the game simply doesnt allow these players to do well. You can make the alliances great yet because they arent part of the establihment they arent going to really acheieve anything, your simply dealing with one very small effect of the problems (after all the number of new players coming in is pretty small so they make up only a tiny proportion of the players leaving).
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Unread 19 Apr 2004, 11:35   #60
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Re: Mentor Team

I've never said its a magic solution, just that its a step, hwoever a small one, its still a step.

I agree with a lot fo what you are saying wakey about neutrallity - if somene can be trusted to be neutral then they shoudln;t need to leave thier alliance, in fact this coudl extended further to things like the multihunter team. The problme is there will allways be someone who complained. For instance say that i don;t know a current ely hc becmane the senior mentor, he would have access to some features that other hcs might not and thus people would deam this unfair even if he never actually used them for his alliances personal gain.

Also i'd like at this point to point out that going into round 10 NoS was a small and pretty dead alliance - we entered the round with a pretty poor rankm form memory somethign pretty similar to the current f-crew rank, and it was dman hard work to rebuild and to climb. Now if we ignroe hirr, NoS woudl ahve finsihed rnaked 7th with a lot more memebrs than it started with. NoS I freely admit that kind of growth gets harder as the universe gets smaller, and that a lot of the growth may have been due to NoS's name BUT a lot fo the new members then were new players to the game, peopple we had to trian to attack, train to use irc, train to use our tools. I guess thats another thing, we had tools, hwoeevr they werne;t essential and we could ahve done withotu them, the same goes for irc etc. We could have made do with what round 10 offered and with random gals we coudl ahve recurited new players without to much trouble.

So my point is this: random gals are needed, active and enthusiastic people are needed, and yes people who have fought through horrible rounds in a small alliance. i would argue that I was partly responsible for the huge turn around in NoS, along with people like Archi, Xandria, Cincinatus, and tine, we worked day in and day out to make the best of our situation and improve NoS, and I woudl say we succeeded for that round at least - whereas I ahvent; seen f-crew grow at all tbh.... my point is this - wakey u may have lots of experiance with alliances that are continually bashed.... but have u any experiance of getting them out of the situation????

EDIT apologies to wakey for parts of that outburst - i just get the impression you will quickly judge others who in reallity u know little about - there are plenty of qualified people out there who would be willing - iss just a question of finding them.
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Unread 19 Apr 2004, 13:19   #61
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Re: Mentor Team

Come on lets be honest here, where F-Crew is currently ranked is far from a position of being 'small and basically dead' and hence I dont really see how you could really consider NoS to have been in that position. As you seem tooften do in your posts you seem to forget that theres more than one layer after the top 10. NoS had an awful long way to go before they were in the realms of small and nearly dead, ok it might have felt like that with the way NoS has never really been in a situation where they are small but you were actually far from it, especially when NoS have the kind of contacts they have to help pull them up. With the resources NoS had it was just a case of putting some work in and using the connections correctly to regain their spot. Now remember that as mentor your not allowed to use any personal connectionsand your in a true struggling alliance, thats alot harder. Just getting them to a level where they can continue the round after is a challenge here and requires more than just hard work and use of your contacts, its the type of situation where your arent looking for a short term solution as you dont have the tools to do so but rather any attempt to move up a level is something you have to be willing to be in the long hard slog for. I mean take F-Crew for example, when r4 was about to start we took the decision to cut our ties with the big alliances and not use our contacts, we simply didnt want involved in the blocking situation which we could see from r3 was bad for the game and decided to take a stand (in hindsight was a bad idea from pov of the alliances power, but not a decision we regret making as we would rather stay true to ourselves then sell out). This led to some very bad rounds for us and our memberbase fell like any small alliances memberbase falls with the way that the player base was shrinking so much. However we were in it for the long haul, we knew members would fall but we were putting things in place which are kind of paying off now. Admittedly we havent acheived what we have this round completly on our own, I think its safe to say that IPC, the handful of members that came under our tag because of IPC's 'withdrawl' from PA help us reach the level to final take the big step forward that we had been working towards. F-Crew has grown a lot since last round, even this round we have steadly moved up the rankings from a position aroundour ranking from last round of 25ish to 14th, which with no aid from the top alliance (a NAP with NewDawn is about as far as our connections with bigger alliances go and they dont consider themselves one of the top alliances).

This idea is looking at a situation far removed from what you experianced with NoS, your not going to be going into these situations to make an alliance a major player within the round, your looking at making them stable and get some solid groundwork in place so then after youve gone they have something to work from and a base to launch their long term plan to grow from because quick success really isnt possible without the use of contacts (Even the likes of Valhalla who may be top 10 are far from being real 'threats' , their position is fairly weak atm and they are simply on an early rung of the ladder,They have some of the groundwork in place, its just a case of building on it in the coming rounds).

As for your "we coudl ahve recurited new players without to much trouble", your right at the level NoS were at recruiting is that hard, Once you break a certain level it is quite easy to recruit, this is a level NoS were always over, the problem is getting over this level in the first place, getting over it is a tough task and is a task that really cant be acheived without first stablising the alliance
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Unread 19 Apr 2004, 14:20   #62
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Re: Mentor Team

I actually think a mentor should be able to use his contacts - say for example someone was working with a ranked 25 alliance and they coudl ask FPM nicly to stop bashing the small alliance for a while, surly that is worth doing?

It is essential that the mentors as a group, not as individuals work with the alliances to try and prevent the "noob bashing" by the big blocks.
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Unread 19 Apr 2004, 14:34   #63
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Re: Mentor Team

The problem with allowing that though is as an 'official' feature of the game the mentors have to be alot more even otherwise it could be very unfair because your success will not really depend on your alliances ability but which mentor you get. Even if you ended up with everyone at a fairly even level skill and experiance wise if you dont get the mentor with the contacts in the main block your obvious at a disadvanatge. Its getting in to dangourous territory when PATeam is ultimatly in charge of your alliances outcome. Its exactly why its better if it just stays unofficial, aftter all I cant say i've ever once really needed the kind of access to an alliance that this idea seems to request to guide them, the only problem is getting in contact with the alliances to offer your service, I mean most of mine over the rounds have come from such alliances attacking f-crew and getting in contact that way but with karm saying that contacting alliances will be easier then it certainly doesnt seem like thats a problem anymore. All you need is a initial contact point and some willing HC's and you have everything you really need to guide them while having it so its them doing the work and not you (after all if you dont have access to things like the website all you can do is advise them, and not take the actions yourself which is what you really want because you learn more by doing that watching)
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Unread 19 Apr 2004, 14:47   #64
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Re: Mentor Team

I would be happy to offer my services in any way possible - I know how hard it is to be new to this game and I had a trial by fire by having the living crap kicked out of me every day through rounds 3/4 until I managed to get into NoS and had the living crap kicke dout of me in round 5

My only concern woud be that I would still like to be a serious Pa player. There must be a way fo the two to go hand in hand. If there was a method to this then new players would be more than welcome to any spare time I have.
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Unread 19 Apr 2004, 15:16   #65
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Re: Mentor Team

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
The problem with allowing that though is as an 'official' feature of the game the mentors have to be alot more even otherwise it could be very unfair because your success will not really depend on your alliances ability but which mentor you get. Even if you ended up with everyone at a fairly even level skill and experiance wise if you dont get the mentor with the contacts in the main block your obvious at a disadvanatge. Its getting in to dangourous territory when PATeam is ultimatly in charge of your alliances outcome. Its exactly why its better if it just stays unofficial, aftter all I cant say i've ever once really needed the kind of access to an alliance that this idea seems to request to guide them, the only problem is getting in contact with the alliances to offer your service, I mean most of mine over the rounds have come from such alliances attacking f-crew and getting in contact that way but with karm saying that contacting alliances will be easier then it certainly doesnt seem like thats a problem anymore. All you need is a initial contact point and some willing HC's and you have everything you really need to guide them while having it so its them doing the work and not you (after all if you dont have access to things like the website all you can do is advise them, and not take the actions yourself which is what you really want because you learn more by doing that watching)
the mentors woudl work together - so if for example i was mentoring an alliance that wa sbeing hit a lot by say phraktos, i woudl talk to a mentor that has contacts in phraktos. The idea is that it is a team that works together to discuss problems. If it wer eindividuals it would be far to hard to police.
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Unread 19 Apr 2004, 15:26   #66
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Re: Mentor Team

so, mentors are supposed to ask large alliances to stop attacking the people they're looking after?

there's two ways i can see that going...
1) it intensifies the presure on all the other small alliances, having little net overall effect, particulalry if all the big alliances do this for a different alliance, so the amout of incomming each gets doesn't change
2)all the big alliances agree not to attack all the small alliances. not convinced this will happen, and if it does even less convinced they'll stick to it

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Unread 19 Apr 2004, 16:08   #67
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Re: Mentor Team

tbh big alliances rarely purpsoefully target the really small alliances, apart form very they want an attack for their smalelr members. the problem is when peopel get fed up with alliance atatcks and decide to just hti people by themselves - this then means they send overkill so theyc an withsatnd some in gal def - no in gel def comes so they end up wiping out the planet.

So I guess what we want is a system that makes roiding easier, and having roids less importnat - i.e. you get the score for taking the roids, not possessing them - making ti worth while to losoe ome of your roids as its easy enough and mroe worthwhile to get some new ones.
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Unread 19 Apr 2004, 17:18   #68
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Re: Mentor Team

i think here you wrong kal.
most of the new player and the small planets are getting hit because they can get defend ingal and in alliance, because their alliance has ETA much bigger than 7 and their gal are partly inactive.
And the "big" player hit them until they cant at the begining just to farm them out and get easy roids (aka no losses) that on the limit of farming and i think everyone will agree with me.
Its another problem PA has to deal with it and not linked or relevent to the subject in this thread.
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Unread 19 Apr 2004, 17:27   #69
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Re: Mentor Team

i wa smroe thinking in general ratehr than consideirng the impact of free planets, but yes u r right - free plaents are ocmpletely screwed as it stands
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Unread 19 Apr 2004, 17:29   #70
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Re: Mentor Team

Quote:
I actually think a mentor should be able to use his contacts - say for example someone was working with a ranked 25 alliance and they coudl ask FPM nicly to stop bashing the small alliance for a while, surly that is worth doing?

It is essential that the mentors as a group, not as individuals work with the alliances to try and prevent the "noob bashing" by the big blocks.
sounds a bit unfair to me
say ur being mentor of 3 alliances (small ones) at the same time and they all are getting bashed
but all by different 'top' alliances
now u as a mentor happen to have ties with 2 out of those 3
u can prolly convince those 2 to hold bakc for a while but u know the 3rd one wont listen for whatever reason
in that case i think mentors shouldnt be some kind of 'help in dire need' but merely ppl who can set up a structure and help HC / BC / DC to do things right
ppl have been talking bout bias towards the big alliances (like ur a member of fang and alliance x has some ppl that fang could use really well) but im more afraid of favoritism, mentors who start liking 1 small alliance more than another and go to greather lengths to help the first (say by using contacts, maybe even negotiating a nap with whoever)

i dont consider myself a vet (tho i did play r2-3-4 and was okish in 9.5) and i have little experience with alliances, cant even recall in which i was during 9.5 so maybe im talking rubbish, ill leave that to ur discretion
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Unread 19 Apr 2004, 17:38   #71
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Re: Mentor Team

there is of course a danger of getting attached to a small alliance, thats why there is a senior mentor to oversee things, and of course pa team beyond that.
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Unread 19 Apr 2004, 17:57   #72
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Re: Mentor Team

Why does this whole thread remind me of R3, and SL being used as a farm wing for Legion

(Cheers Cat + Buffy for that one)
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Unread 19 Apr 2004, 18:02   #73
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Re: Mentor Team

Quote:
sounds a bit unfair to me
say ur being mentor of 3 alliances (small ones) at the same time and they all are getting bashed
but all by different 'top' alliances
now u as a mentor happen to have ties with 2 out of those 3
u can prolly convince those 2 to hold bakc for a while but u know the 3rd one wont listen for whatever reason
in that case i think mentors shouldnt be some kind of 'help in dire need' but merely ppl who can set up a structure and help HC / BC / DC to do things right
ppl have been talking bout bias towards the big alliances (like ur a member of fang and alliance x has some ppl that fang could use really well) but im more afraid of favoritism, mentors who start liking 1 small alliance more than another and go to greather lengths to help the first (say by using contacts, maybe even negotiating a nap with whoever)
I think you are right , and mentor shouldnt abuse his links for getting protection, what he shall do is put the right structure and then push the affairs HC of the small alliance to start making his own move in the political ground.
I dont think that Mentor should lead or even make nap/allies for the small alliance, this should be understood by the big alliance itself that farming them is bad.
but the mentor should be more adviser and show them the different possibilities and the doors the HC/player can open.
Remember that a part of the fun is to make mistake too and get 3 hostile alliance on your Ass is sometime funny and can help regroup your alliance and your community together to deal better with the threats
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Unread 19 Apr 2004, 18:22   #74
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Re: Mentor Team

Quote:
Originally Posted by KalVirtus
i wa smroe thinking in general ratehr than consideirng the impact of free planets, but yes u r right - free plaents are ocmpletely screwed as it stands
Its not just free planets, smaller alliances are all targeted by the big alliances no matter what account status you hold as your deemed easy roids because your less likly to defend. You either end up being roided if your roid fat, which admittedly isnt too bad as its not too damaging (and contray to popular belief alot of people become roid fat not by being poor players but because the or reason thats coming up) Or your not roid fat, you've played smart but your still relativly easy roids, they use their number advanatge to turn up witha riduclous amount of ships, if you send away their kill ships get pulled and they just roid you or if you stay the numbers see you smashed. Your then open for their mates to come and roid you later


And the problem with the system ISNT with the roids, roids are pretty easy to come by already, the problem is with ships. The fact they account toward your ranking means no-one is willing to take risks and small planets are so easierly demorilised when they get bashed and lose all their ships and in the process drop hundreds of places (and in the past thousands) of places. I mean in PAX i was playing smartly, was just outside the top 100 which for a player in an alliance who was struggling to be in the top 25 was pretty impressive, I got bashed when I was out for the day by the number 3 of the top 10 players and when i got back I was ranked around the 1200 mark. Carrying on playing after that was pretty tough and its these kind of attacks that happen day in day out on smaller alliances just because players arent willing to risk attacking targets that might fight back. If our score wasnt connected to fleets directly and only through the poetntial score they held you simply wouldnt have the problem, a problem which is probally the number 1 cause of driving players away (losing ships isnt nice but its the score and ranking drops that come with it that drive people away, the devote alot of time playing and one attack can undo all the hardwork and that just isnt right)
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Unread 19 Apr 2004, 18:26   #75
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Re: Mentor Team

I defintly think XP should account for a mich greate rportion of score than it does now - and that you shoudl get XP for much more than you do atm.

Imo there needs to be an inceitnve to go afer hard roids rather than easy roids
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Unread 19 Apr 2004, 18:33   #76
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Re: Mentor Team

all you guys do is argue
the only thing we can do is set up those chans for aliance help and individual players help
and also have classes in wich we can teach.
Id gladly do teacher jobs.
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Unread 19 Apr 2004, 19:14   #77
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Re: Mentor Team

as i aim to start training as a teacher, i'll start as soon asap
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Unread 19 Apr 2004, 20:12   #78
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Re: Mentor Team

as soon asap?
irc channels where known vets help out players and possibly even new alliances sounds as good alternative to me
it even allows the 'mentors' to not sever all ties with their current allies but just act as if they are the vets in a random gal who help out the newbies, just on a more broad scale
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Unread 19 Apr 2004, 21:46   #79
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Re: Mentor Team

Quote:
It is essential that the mentors as a group, not as individuals work with the alliances to try and prevent the "noob bashing" by the big blocks.
didnt notice this at first
and tho i like the sound of it, i doubt its gonna happen
as long as this is a game that u can win alliances will go for easy roids and obviously they are more likely to be in the 25th alliance than in the 10th
one possible solution as i see it are either making some sort of 'to small' thing for alliances
just like u cant attack a planet thats to small maybe alliances shouldnt be able to attack ones that are at a certain lvl below them
but i wonder what the alliances emselves think of that
it is more unbiased than helping em with ur fame tho
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Unread 20 Apr 2004, 10:25   #80
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Re: Mentor Team

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
  • Game Experiance and Plenty of it as they have to have a deep understanding of the game
  • Alliance HC experiance for many rounds, and I mean a proper alliance.
  • Some skill in the game. This is about the easiest requirement to fulfil
  • Some Small alliance Experiance. if your helping small alliances you have to have some understanding of the unique circumstances they have. As Ive said elsewhere throw some of these big alliance HC's into a small alliance and they will have a fit as its a whole differnt set of circumstances
  • Understanding of the Current community status. Zhil mentioned to me the other day how differnt he felt the game was from before and how he felt that his marginal success had a lot to do with the fact his name let him walk into any alliance. You cant just wheel out vetrans who havent played for rounds
  • MOST importantly with this being offered as an 'official game service' and not just one of these things that players currently do as a side project the mentors have to be very active. if they need you you pretty much have to be there immeditaly.
I believe I'd be able to fill most of the requirements except the current community status one. Not that I've been away, because I've been here since r2 and I'm not about to leave, but when it comes to PaX and PaX.V I havent' even been in an alliance or cared about what alliances exist and who's in them.
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Unread 20 Apr 2004, 11:41   #81
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Re: Mentor Team

Quote:
Originally Posted by KalVirtus
tbh i'm not certain they woudlbe targetted - why target an alliance ranked say 30th when u r ranked 5th, its not really going to be a huge source of roids for u.... but then maybe i think to much of alliances.
Yeah, that'd be like an alliance ranked 1st targetting an alliance ranked 5th or less- totally unthinkable.
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Unread 20 Apr 2004, 11:49   #82
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Re: Mentor Team

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthetic_Sid
Yeah, that'd be like an alliance ranked 1st targetting an alliance ranked 5th or less- totally unthinkable.
i was goign to reply and disgareee....

but then i looked at the average scores...

#1 is about double #5 and #5 is about double #30

which means... that maybe the small alliances arn;t so bad off afterall... i mean sure they are small and get bashed, but the tail off in score is much more pronounced at the top end of the rankings than the bottom. I guess becuase the #5 alliances has enough memebers to defend some incs and the #30 does not.......

So as being discussed on the alliance forum.... maybe the solution coudl really be to limit the size of an alliance to say 50 members.
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Unread 20 Apr 2004, 12:06   #83
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Re: Mentor Team

the solution would be to put competent people in charge of the alliance.
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Unread 20 Apr 2004, 12:13   #84
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Re: Mentor Team

Quote:
Originally Posted by KalVirtus
i was goign to reply and disgareee....

but then i looked at the average scores...

#1 is about double #5 and #5 is about double #30

which means... that maybe the small alliances arn;t so bad off afterall... i mean sure they are small and get bashed, but the tail off in score is much more pronounced at the top end of the rankings than the bottom. I guess becuase the #5 alliances has enough memebers to defend some incs and the #30 does not.......

So as being discussed on the alliance forum.... maybe the solution coudl really be to limit the size of an alliance to say 50 members.
Number of members is pretty irrelevant - it's quality of members that matters. This is one of the mistakes Wakey always makes in his whining posts - he blames all manner of evils on the fact alliances such as fang/wp have 100 members and fails to notice that alliances with same number of members as his own, which are far newer, have double the average score.

And that's why other newbie alliances will always struggle for defence. Take a very simplistic example:

Alliance A has 100 members, 25% of whom are on irc at the busy time of night.
Alliance B has 50 members, 50% of whom are on irc at the bust time of night.

If we assume members of both alliances are similar scores/roids (as is teh case early in the round) and that attacks are made entirely at random - based on roids/scores not alliance wars then the situation is that both alliances have the same amount of defence available during the key period each night. But alliance A, because of it's larger memberbase will receive twice the inbound Alliance B will. No prizes for guessing which of them will do better.

That example demonstrates what i believe is the single largest factor in which alliances do well (ignoring, for now political issues such as blocking). They key to a successful alliance, more than anything else, is the quality of its members - and no mentoring system can really solve that. The irony of it all is that the complaints by the likes of wakey about alliances being too big (in member count) caused enforcement of maximum member size. To an established active alliance, all that does is force them to kick out the less active members and be more selective in recruitment - which has precisely the opposite effect to what what desired.

Big (in member count) is NOT, of itself, good for an alliance in PA - and all enforcing memebr count limits does is remove any chance of any large-scale recruitment of newer players into the top alliances. Which isn't to say that removing such limits would necessarily make top alliances recruit new players.

Mentors would be best served advising new players on an individual basis - they get their first inbound and a mentor can tell them what ships they need for defence, and what ships they should move from abse or they'll die. Mentors tell them where to find a battle-calc, what ships they need to build for defence, what alliances are currently recruiting etc. That would be of far more use than trying to help small, new alliances.
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Unread 20 Apr 2004, 12:43   #85
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Re: Mentor Team

Mentors team will be for both case (individual or small groupd of 5 people) and for small alliance too.
I think myself that the individual help wil be more important, but they will be able to do both tasks, especially when you find out that they are still people that regroup together and refuse to be a part of the big alliance such as FAnG or other.

About what syn said, alliance size wont matter very much, The #1 #2 and #3 will just end picking the best of the best actives and loyal members, and in average will be stronger than any new alliance, tho it may fix the problem of the lack of people in PA nowadays, it might balance the power between alliance such as ely or LCH or other medium alliance to be equal to other alliance, and it might be a little bit more difficult to get yourself ranked #1 and it could push to see new alliance get forged around or get abused and see new Head alliance with 2 or 3 wings (lets say im FAnG HC and i have FAnG1 - FAnG2 - FAnG3) i have the memberbase to be a block by mself and in the new history i wont even have to count on allies because i will be able to take my 3 wings and fight every blocks against me. and no matter what rank get my wing, if one is #1 and the other 3 and 4, i can still claim for total wining.

I think that the most effort need to be put in the small alliance and new player.
if you indeed redirect the new player into new alliance, we will just feed the big alliance and have the same amounts of alliance like today, 5 or 8 that have 99% of the firepower of PA.
WE want to diversify PA alliances and maybe give more power to the new player community which will in the future count as an integral part of the PA community
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Unread 20 Apr 2004, 13:44   #86
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Re: Mentor Team

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthetic_Sid
Number of members is pretty irrelevant - it's quality of members that matters.
having seen the alliance forum, the quality of HC is also important - come back sid, all is forgiven! :P

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Originally Posted by sid
Mentors would be best served advising new players on an individual basis - they get their first inbound and a mentor can tell them what ships they need for defence, and what ships they should move from abse or they'll die. Mentors tell them where to find a battle-calc, what ships they need to build for defence, what alliances are currently recruiting etc. That would be of far more use than trying to help small, new alliances.
very true, in as far as it goes - although mentors working with an alliance would mean that all of the alliance members, or at least those with an interest (lets face it, since fury and legion left, a fair number of people in the top alliances are there because of activity, not skill), could learn rather than just the individual.

problem is, once someone's learned all this stuff they still need two vouches in order to join a decent alliance. only way i can see this benefiting the bright/active newbie is if there are enough to form a new alliance from them, but that'd be riddled with spies etc etc so id' say it'd need at least a couple of rounds before it's a viable force. quite a long term investment

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Unread 20 Apr 2004, 14:41   #87
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Re: Mentor Team

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Number of members is pretty irrelevant - it's quality of members that matters. This is one of the mistakes Wakey always makes in his whining posts - he blames all manner of evils on the fact alliances such as fang/wp have 100 members and fails to notice that alliances with same number of members as his own, which are far newer, have double the average score.

And that's why other newbie alliances will always struggle for defence. Take a very simplistic example:

Alliance A has 100 members, 25% of whom are on irc at the busy time of night.
Alliance B has 50 members, 50% of whom are on irc at the bust time of night.

If we assume members of both alliances are similar scores/roids (as is teh case early in the round) and that attacks are made entirely at random - based on roids/scores not alliance wars then the situation is that both alliances have the same amount of defence available during the key period each night. But alliance A, because of it's larger memberbase will receive twice the inbound Alliance B will. No prizes for guessing which of them will do better.

That example demonstrates what i believe is the single largest factor in which alliances do well (ignoring, for now political issues such as blocking). They key to a successful alliance, more than anything else, is the quality of its members - and no mentoring system can really solve that. The irony of it all is that the complaints by the likes of wakey about alliances being too big (in member count) caused enforcement of maximum member size. To an established active alliance, all that does is force them to kick out the less active members and be more selective in recruitment - which has precisely the opposite effect to what what desired.

Big (in member count) is NOT, of itself, good for an alliance in PA - and all enforcing memebr count limits does is remove any chance of any large-scale recruitment of newer players into the top alliances. Which isn't to say that removing such limits would necessarily make top alliances recruit new players.

Mentors would be best served advising new players on an individual basis - they get their first inbound and a mentor can tell them what ships they need for defence, and what ships they should move from abse or they'll die. Mentors tell them where to find a battle-calc, what ships they need to build for defence, what alliances are currently recruiting etc. That would be of far more use than trying to help small, new alliances.
Its not actually a mistake I make in my posts because at no point do my posts say "Lets let small players have a chance at winning". For some reason people here with connections to big alliances seem to ignore 99% of any post and then use that 1% to draw the conclusion that i'm against players winning because they are the most skillful and most dedicated. If you really took the time to read anything ive written you will see I'm probally one of the strongest supporters of the idea that this game should be one where quality comes out on top. However this shouldnt mean that the game losses its appeal for everyone else and thats why I'm for a realistic limit.

If alliances are allowed to grow out of control you get to a stage where such a small number control so much of the game that the top end stagnates, they simply have no viable threats and generally put off attacking each other because it would mean ship losses for all and hence big score drops. Now due to the fact that players will always attract upwards to the biggest alliances those at the top always have new people to add, without limits they can keep getting bigger throughout the round, and with no players making their way down the ranks and no players coming into the game the gap just gets wider. The small alliances get less effective because they reach those critical levels where a singtle galaxy can take out your alliance and their players just start to quit the game. It was getting to a stage where there were so many people at the top end and so few at the bottom end that their wasnt enough small players to support the large players..

By having a realistic limit you remove some of the size advantage elements (which do bring some advantages, especially if you can combine them with the best players like some of teh top alliances can) so that theres now more alliances on a level playing field size wise meaning that the way to excel is skill, because theres more alliances of a viable size (because new alliances are created from players removed from their alliance and the alliances that because of their size cant quite stand up for themselves whom are brought more into play due to the downsizing) theres more compitition, hence a more vibrant game than we have now, meaning that the small are now slightly less appealing targets as you have other worries and they arent quite as weak as before thus giving a slightly improved playing enviorment thus allowing players at the lower end to have some fun. Yes the current players at the top will generally still come out on top and yes the small players now will still be at the bottom but thats how it should be.

ofc limiting alliance size doesnt totally solve the problems, small players are still going to be a persons first choice as target due to the fact score is based so much on your ships making attacking people of a fair size unappealing due to the losses your get not being worth the gains but thats an issue for elsewhere
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Unread 20 Apr 2004, 17:55   #88
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Re: Mentor Team

Re: Mentor Team

The main problem with new players are the rules and action with this game.I created a alliance in the hope to find active members.In no time we had 30 members most of them where newbies but had no experience with irc.When they sign in to register their names they only came online when they needed defense,but that is not how a Alliance work (I THINK)
THE MENTOR should be a good thing but also should a top 10 Alliance at least have a number of newbies in there Alliance .This is the fasted way of learning how to respond on a defense or attack.
Am sure that they get the feeling that their is more as just a galaxy.
As 1 player say to me Alliance always comes first.
Let them taste the feeling of a top 10 Alliance am sure they will payed for the account.

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Unread 20 Apr 2004, 19:25   #89
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Re: Mentor Team

The thing is i'm not actually sure throwing newbies into top alliances is really that good an idea. Might just be me but I think theres something vital about working your way up from the small to a big alliance. Without some kind of time at the bottom you miss out on vital parts of your development , aspects like how to play smart which while your under the protection of a top alliance your simply not as inclined to learn. Big alliance membership should be something that has to be earnt, something you get because you have become skillful at the game not something you were just thrown into by sheer luck. Doing it this way also teaches you some respect for smaller players, if you have experianced what smaller players went through your that little more likly to go a little eaiser on small players in future.

Not to mention I personally think it helps spread the skills around better, you may have a natural ability that makes you good at one aspect of the game and as you progress up the ladder you come across other people with skills that compliment yours. This allows knowledge exchanges to happen which see you improve a number of peopl directly around you allowing them to then pass it on and allowing you to also pass on your newly gained skills. If you end up being given a quick way in at the top this doesnt happen, yes you might pick up alot of skills from others but you dont enhance the alliance at all and certainloy dont pass info on to those further down the chain. And seeing as most people who are at the top stay at the top theres a distinct lack of knowledge being passed around
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Unread 20 Apr 2004, 22:02   #90
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Re: Mentor Team

Wats the point of teaching people to play the game ?
1/2 the fun is finding out how things work
the main problem with PA is the mass incommings n00bs get
after 24 hours of incomming waves all ur ships dead roids making their way to new homes and ur mines and factories killed who the hell has the strength or will to say "ah well gg " and start rebuilding ready for the next waves to start
tbh its a total waste of time you plan build and start to get into the game then POW!!! all smashed to bits tis no wounder people cant be arsed to carry on playing
imo only answer is to make it impossible for more than 1 planet to launch on another and no other attacks allowed on the attacked plant from ne one for 24 hours
its about time these alliance tossers fought 1v1 instead of 20v1
mebby if n00bs could see they had a chance they would get into the game and stay around for a bit
the way things are atm u either got to live and breath PA/irc 24/7 to get into an alliance or try and play it for fun by urself and get crushed in under 8 weeks and jack it in
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Unread 20 Apr 2004, 23:45   #91
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Re: Mentor Team

i like this idea
i'm not exactly a n00b but i am a rather not good player
would i be able to get mentoring even though i'm not a total n00b?
if i could this would help a huge amount
advice on best ships to build, what kinda roid/score ratio i should try to keep etc
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Unread 20 Apr 2004, 23:47   #92
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Re: Mentor Team

i'm sure anyone woudl eb able to apply for help
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Unread 21 Apr 2004, 00:23   #93
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Re: Mentor Team

yes- the mentoring thing will be both for experienced and not experienced player.
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Unread 21 Apr 2004, 17:04   #94
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Re: Mentor Team

mentors sound great in theory but willthey work in practice? I doubt it. majority of pa skill is based on being in the know and activity. If you can manage both then you are quids in - if you cant you will be owned regularly.
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Unread 21 Apr 2004, 17:24   #95
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Re: Mentor Team

activity can be acquired when you start to be addicted - for this you need to teach the new player how great can be this game, then they will be adicted check more often, wihch mean more actvity and root stronger in PA.
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Unread 21 Apr 2004, 19:51   #96
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Re: Mentor Team

How about simply starting an IRC channel, giving some people + and @ and giving it a go? If PA wants to take over then they can. I see no need to wait.
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Unread 21 Apr 2004, 20:45   #97
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Re: Mentor Team

IMO the idea of the mentors is a good thing.
I do think the mentor should be able to stay in his / her own alliance.
If you cut ppl away from their alliance / friends to help new ppl they will think twice before saying yes.

I said this many times before, I would like to help out in anyway I can, but up to now my rank in my alliance prevented it.

I don't think the rank of a player makes a difference, if he / she volunteers to be a mentor it shows he / she WANTS to help.
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Unread 22 Apr 2004, 00:08   #98
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Re: Mentor Team

not that true ACE,
and tbh, starting to help the people, is something i done allready, but i dont know if opening a channel and make it half-official is something that PA want me to do.
Do i qualify for this?
Will the guys that i will put up on work in the channel will qualify and if indeed we do it and PAteam take it official, what will i do with the team i have if they dont meet the standart of the official team?
i will keep it on my regular base of help im giving to some people and an alliance.
i will see where its going later.
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Unread 22 Apr 2004, 10:12   #99
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Re: Mentor Team

While its unofficial the quality of the people doesnt really matter as much. The players are under no illusion when getting unofficial help, but when you throw the official tag into place this is when the quality becomes an issue because anything official has a seal of approval and hence gives a view that this help is going to be of the highest quality. Ultimatly unofficial help has the ability to be much lower quality without it being an issue.

And yes if its done unofficially some of the team will have to be cut away if it did go official, they could either have some spare time to themselves or they could carry on doing it unofficially thus suplimenting the official help avaialable. And atleast this would weed out those simply after a title, if they arent willing to help for a round or so unofficially then if it did go official you know any new appliacant is probally after the title
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Unread 23 Apr 2004, 02:16   #100
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Re: Mentor Team

hi
i've read this topic with great interest as it's about newbies like me
i've seen some (in my opinion) good idears and on the other hand some of you don't give the newbies enough credit. But thats a hole nother ballgame.
my suggestion is don't start at the alliances. Start at the base and put a mentor (or at least a vet) in every gal. that way its in the best interest of the mentors not to use his gal.m8s as bate and will do everything in his power to make it a big gal cause he needs the def. On the other hand he can stil be in his own alliance
and there's nothing wrong with recruitment.

I had major help from my own GC when started. he helped me learnin to get around and helpin with the choise of an all. and i'm learnin every day (this mssge is a first as well). I think you should start here cause when ya have solid players the solid alliances will follow.

well thats how i think about the topic

P.s. excuse ma english i'm better at speakin it
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