Scanning Suggestion

[hyfe]

Orignally meant as a reply to this the 'implication of r10 features thread, but since i liked this scan idea so much.. I made a new thread instead

Engineers:

"Any feature that further promotes planet specialization is inheretly bad "

Everybody wants to do good. If it becomes even harder to be a scan bitch than now while still playing actively, it will just further reward cheaters. Exploding amps was a large step in the wrong direction, this might be another one.

Internal Security

"Any feature that further promotes planet generalization is inheretly good"

If "scans" gave out some information specific to the planet which scanned, we might take a large step towards removing the single most reason people cheat.

My suggestion on this would be:
- You can only Mil.Scan anything on your own overview (your own hostiles, your own friendlies, whereever your fleet is going(it ought to have travelled atleast one tick though)
- You can Unit or PDS scan everything on gal.status, everything on overivew, and everything from some of the newsies newsies(read further)
- You can Sector- or New-scan everybody from galaxy screen(which is everybody)

Newscans ought to have two different detail levels (giving them different names to avoid confusion might be a good idea),
If newsieing somebody from overview page, you get full co-ords, along with links for doing UNIT/PDS scan on all co-ords shown on the newsie

If newsieing somebody from galaxy screen, all co-ords are removed from the news-scans, and no scan links are shown

So is this simple enough? We get a simple system where we have different permission for who you can scan..and its all based on current features, which makes it easily understandable, and easily implemented. It will reward people who scan for themselves, and it will add extra strategy to the game, without being overly complex.

[Gerbie]

Something like this has been suggested before. I liked it then and I still do. I hope the information features will have some of this in them, but all we now is that it will be completely different.

[SYMM]

I think it was Syn_sid who suggested this last time, i a biiiiiiig post on lots of things. Being unable to mil-scan incoming in your gal though is a bit harsh, the game while obviously rewarding activty, can not go so far that te more casual players have no chance of a good defence- especially against a xan attacker, who would gain a huge advantage.

[hyfe]

Originally posted by SYMM
I think it was Syn_sid who suggested this last time, i a biiiiiiig post on lots of things. Being unable to mil-scan incoming in your gal though is a bit harsh, the game while obviously rewarding activty, can not go so far that te more casual players have no chance of a good defence- especially against a xan attacker, who would gain a huge advantage.

I Know: Xandthril would become to powerfull with this feature

However: I'd rather change the Xandathril than my idea .. First idea that pops up in my mind is having xand ships shown up as 'unknown' in a unit scan.. thus providing numbers, just not types...

Having to do more guesswork is also a good idea imo

[Gerbie]

It would be nice if they gave the amount of unknown ships. With a sectorscan you calculate scan the amount of score in 'unknown' ships. Thus calculating the average ship size of unknown ships. Or this can be provided, to suport the lesser mathematicians.

[Toop]

I don't like that Idea. I just want to be able to scan whoever I want to, and I'm not a scan planet. I scanned some1 who was attacking the planet I was defending today, just to see what was coming (but mainly because I was bored). Besides, I don't see why scan planets should be eliminated.. If that's how they want to play, let them .

[SYMM]

What about a "Cloaked Unit Scan", thats comes before Mil scans that is just a unit scan showing cloaked units- not their targets or fleet composition? (this was also in the Syn_sid suggestion...), which follows the same "rules" as you gave for unit scans.

[Chax]

Originally posted by hyfe
Orignally meant as a reply to this the 'implication of r10 features thread, but since i liked this scan idea so much.. I made a new thread instead

Engineers:

"Any feature that further promotes planet specialization is inheretly bad "

Everybody wants to do good. If it becomes even harder to be a scan bitch than now while still playing actively, it will just further reward cheaters. Exploding amps was a large step in the wrong direction, this might be another one.

I agree fully

Originally posted by hyfe
Internal Security

"Any feature that further promotes planet generalization is inheretly good"

If "scans" gave out some information specific to the planet which scanned, we might take a large step towards removing the single most reason people cheat.

My suggestion on this would be:
- You can only Mil.Scan anything on your own overview (your own hostiles, your own friendlies, whereever your fleet is going(it ought to have travelled atleast one tick though)
- You can Unit or PDS scan everything on gal.status, everything on overivew, and everything from some of the newsies newsies(read further)
- You can Sector- or New-scan everybody from galaxy screen(which is everybody)[/b]

Being able to Mil scan anything on galaxy status is a must, how else to help your galaxy out when they get hostiles? It's what I've been doing ever since I got mil scans a couple weeks ago.
And what about PDS scans, surely they should be done from galaxy screen
Unit scans too for that matter.

Originally posted by hyfe
Newscans ought to have two different detail levels (giving them different names to avoid confusion might be a good idea),
If newsieing somebody from overview page, you get full co-ords, along with links for doing UNIT/PDS scan on all co-ords shown on the newsie[/b]

No links to mil scan defenders? Not fun when there's xandathrii defense.

Originally posted by hyfe
If newsieing somebody from galaxy screen, all co-ords are removed from the news-scans, and no scan links are shown

So is this simple enough? We get a simple system where we have different permission for who you can scan..and its all based on current features, which makes it easily understandable, and easily implemented. It will reward people who scan for themselves, and it will add extra strategy to the game, without being overly complex. [/b]

Other than that, sounds decent

[Gerbie]

One of the reasons why rounds get boring is that not much is happening. People attack, they scan. If there is defence, they make a calc and decide to pull or not. Defenders when online will not wait for him to land and run. There's almost no thrill in doing an attack nowadays, especially since there is not much of a war going on.

We need more battles actually taking place and more surprises. I'd like scans to give us less information. That will allow people to use more original strategies to make use of the element of surprise. If xans get better by the element of surprise, you can always decide to downgrade them even more.

[hyfe]

Originally posted by Chax
I agree fully


Being able to Mil scan anything on galaxy status is a must, how else to help your galaxy out when they get hostiles? It's what I've been doing ever since I got mil scans a couple weeks ago.
And what about PDS scans, surely they should be done from galaxy screen
Unit scans too for that matter.

I may not have been to clear:
Yes: I agree, PDS scans from galaxy screen
Dunno: Mil.scanning from galaxy screen; I really i don't know. It might be ****ty, but I'd really like for the Unit scan to have some use that mil.scan doesn't fullfill. It'd make it more important to be online though, which isn't a good thing either..

No links to mil scan defenders? Not fun when there's xandathrii defense.

Well.. if xandathril stays the exact same... I can naught but agree. However, I'd rather change the xandathril than the suggestion (as I said in previous post, regular unitscan with 'unknown' shown instead of shipname is my preference)

Another point: you should get access to unit/pds/military scans on own galaxy regardless of wether they show up on gal.status or not ofc

[Gerbie]

Round 10 will not have pds. So I don't think pds scans will have any use either.

[Cochese]

After reading your suggestions I think you'll be pleased with the changes to scans hyfe

[Chax]

Originally posted by Cochese
After reading your suggestions I think you'll be pleased with the changes to scans hyfe

This dropping of hints by people in the know has got to stop. Either it's public or it's secret, going around boasting about knowing things the rest of us don't is a despicable act of elitism.

[SYMM]

Its better than nothing, and Cochese at least doesn't seem to be bragging- just sharing what little info he is allowed.

[Cochese]

Originally posted by Chax
This dropping of hints by people in the know has got to stop. Either it's public or it's secret, going around boasting about knowing things the rest of us don't is a despicable act of elitism.

Who's boasting? Did I ever say "I know everything about r10, and I 0wn0r, you sux0r phwoar!!!11122223444"? No, not even remotely close.

If you read between the lines, which was the ENTIRE point of my post, you'd know almost exactly what was going to change for r10, without me having to actually say it.

Marvelous example of missing the point and overreacting, Chax.

[hyfe]

Originally posted by Cochese
Who's boasting? Did I ever say "I know everything about r10, and I 0wn0r, you sux0r phwoar!!!11122223444"? No, not even remotely close.

If you read between the lines, which was the ENTIRE point of my post, you'd know almost exactly what was going to change for r10, without me having to actually say it.

Marvelous example of missing the point and overreacting, Chax.

Well... I'm actually inclided to partly agree with Chax..I think you were a tad unlucky with your wording there.

'I know similar ideas have been discussed, and I'll will try call attention to this thread / bring the ideas further etc'.. something along these lines would be more approriate imo; I know you didn't mean it to Cochese, but your post comes off looking like elitiscm, and fits nicely in with the trend of giving out just enough teasers for us not to be able to contribute.

[Cochese]

Well as you think I'm coming off as elitist, I think you're coming off as dense. We'll have to agree to disagree.

"Keep up on your current train of thought; a limted ability to obtain information from planets not directly involved in combat with you".

Try that.

[hyfe]

Agreeing to disagree, i can live with that... However, I'd still like to say that its the trend thats ticking "us" off, and a trend promoted from an increasingly annoying PA-HQ. "We" may be dense, or extremely sore about the whole deal, but please understand where its coming from: its not personal.

Tactitus sarcasm 'everything will be fixed in r10' sums up quite alot of my frustrations atleast...

[Cochese]

It's understandable frustration...I simply don't appreciate being flamed when I'm trying to ease the frustration, and give away a little bit of info here and there...at least more than the Creators' do.

"Don't kill the messenger"

The entire reason I leak stuff--and always have, when privy to that information--is because when a round winds down and people begin to speculate on the new one, PAHQ is notoriously mum on new features, and there are often issues that have broad-reaching impact (races in previous rounds, sneak attacks, overburn, etc) which need to be discussed--not in the "Do you like this new feature?" sense, but in the "open alpha test" sense; someone will inevetably come along and point out a flaw we failed to catch...something that would have taken up, most likely, valuable beta testing time.

With round 10 being substantially different, and changes being implemented that have countless potential problems, it's hard to say anything at all without either giving up the whole picture or not saying enough to make sense (as the case is here).

Personally, I don't much care for surprises, and neither do long-time custmers (ie, the current playerbase). They like to know what to expect before shelling out money and time. Therefore, imho, there is no reason to keep things hidden and secret...give the people something to drool over, or something to tear apart. Either way, it's better than dropping a bomb on a community as fickle as ours.

[Chax]

Originally posted by Cochese
It's understandable frustration...I simply don't appreciate being flamed when I'm trying to ease the frustration, and give away a little bit of info here and there...at least more than the Creators' do.

"Don't kill the messenger"

The entire reason I leak stuff--and always have, when privy to that information--is because when a round winds down and people begin to speculate on the new one, PAHQ is notoriously mum on new features, and there are often issues that have broad-reaching impact (races in previous rounds, sneak attacks, overburn, etc) which need to be discussed--not in the "Do you like this new feature?" sense, but in the "open alpha test" sense; someone will inevetably come along and point out a flaw we failed to catch...something that would have taken up, most likely, valuable beta testing time.

With round 10 being substantially different, and changes being implemented that have countless potential problems, it's hard to say anything at all without either giving up the whole picture or not saying enough to make sense (as the case is here).

Personally, I don't much care for surprises, and neither do long-time custmers (ie, the current playerbase). They like to know what to expect before shelling out money and time. Therefore, imho, there is no reason to keep things hidden and secret...give the people something to drool over, or something to tear apart. Either way, it's better than dropping a bomb on a community as fickle as ours.

Leaking this here and that there only puts fuel on the fire. If indeed you were only a messenger there would be no reason to flame, but you aren't a messenger, you're a prophet. And these boards are your home. It is a well known fact that you can't be a prophet in your own town. Such people will be flamed.

While I'm sure you could easily come up with a witty rebuke to this post along the lines of "I know everything about r10, and I 0wn0r, you sux0r phwoar!!!11122223444" I instead suggest that you explain to the creators why they should share all their info with us right away instead of keeping things so secret. You have the arguments, you feel for them, you have the opportunity to be heard, now use them where they might make an impact.

You can be the creators man here, and leak a bit of gasoline, but expect flames. Or you can be our man with the creators, and actually make a real difference. It's your choice.

Make a difference!

[MAdnRisKy]

Originally posted by Cochese
It's understandable frustration...I simply don't appreciate being flamed when I'm trying to ease the frustration, and give away a little bit of info here and there...at least more than the Creators' do.

"Don't kill the messenger"

The entire reason I leak stuff--and always have, when privy to that information--is because when a round winds down and people begin to speculate on the new one, PAHQ is notoriously mum on new features, and there are often issues that have broad-reaching impact (races in previous rounds, sneak attacks, overburn, etc) which need to be discussed--not in the "Do you like this new feature?" sense, but in the "open alpha test" sense; someone will inevetably come along and point out a flaw we failed to catch...something that would have taken up, most likely, valuable beta testing time.

With round 10 being substantially different, and changes being implemented that have countless potential problems, it's hard to say anything at all without either giving up the whole picture or not saying enough to make sense (as the case is here).

Personally, I don't much care for surprises, and neither do long-time custmers (ie, the current playerbase). They like to know what to expect before shelling out money and time. Therefore, imho, there is no reason to keep things hidden and secret...give the people something to drool over, or something to tear apart. Either way, it's better than dropping a bomb on a community as fickle as ours.

A very good post in advocating a lack of cloak and dagger stuff that we're unfortunatly witnessing a lot of at the moment.

Chax's wording was a bit strong, and I won't make his comment quite so purposefully directed at you, because I understand your sentiments and motivations, and the fact your hands are tied firmly behind your back in the matter. Never the less reading what you put, could very easily be construed as "I know more than you but keep guessing cos you're very close " and it's irritating when people do that

[MAdnRisKy]

Originally posted by Chax - in his siggi
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

sorry to distrupt the flow of conversation and all, but I just sprayed my coffee all over the screen at that one

[Tactitus]

Originally posted by hyfe
Orignally meant as a reply to this the 'implication of r10 features thread, but since i liked this scan idea so much.. I made a new thread instead

Engineers:

"Any feature that further promotes planet specialization is inheretly bad "

Everybody wants to do good. If it becomes even harder to be a scan bitch than now while still playing actively, it will just further reward cheaters. Exploding amps was a large step in the wrong direction, this might be another one.

Agreed. Planet specialization just kills individual achievement. If they want to make a team game then make it a proper team game (fixed-sized teams, control alliances, etc).

Internal Security

"Any feature that further promotes planet generalization is inheretly good"

If "scans" gave out some information specific to the planet which scanned, we might take a large step towards removing the single most reason people cheat.

My suggestion on this would be:
- You can only Mil.Scan anything on your own overview (your own hostiles, your own friendlies, whereever your fleet is going(it ought to have travelled atleast one tick though)
- You can Unit or PDS scan everything on gal.status, everything on overivew, and everything from some of the newsies newsies(read further)
- You can Sector- or New-scan everybody from galaxy screen(which is everybody)

Newscans ought to have two different detail levels (giving them different names to avoid confusion might be a good idea),
If newsieing somebody from overview page, you get full co-ords, along with links for doing UNIT/PDS scan on all co-ords shown on the newsie

If newsieing somebody from galaxy screen, all co-ords are removed from the news-scans, and no scan links are shown

So is this simple enough? We get a simple system where we have different permission for who you can scan..and its all based on current features, which makes it easily understandable, and easily implemented. It will reward people who scan for themselves, and it will add extra strategy to the game, without being overly complex.

This--or something very close to it--has been proposed before; and might actually work. Personally, I'd like to see a different approach to scans and "intelligence gathering"--one that focused on what (what ships are going to be in a certain sector at a certain time) and less on who (who sent the ships); one that used scouts and probes rather than instantaneous waves.

[Tactitus]

Originally posted by Chax
While I'm sure you could easily come up with a witty rebuke to this post along the lines of "I know everything about r10, and I 0wn0r, you sux0r phwoar!!!11122223444" I instead suggest that you explain to the creators why they should share all their info with us right away instead of keeping things so secret. You have the arguments, you feel for them, you have the opportunity to be heard, now use them where they might make an impact.

That pretty well hits it on the head. As long as the creators keep their R&D cloaked in a shroud of mystery and sabotage it with last minute tweaks, the game is going to continue taking one step backwards for each step forward.

[Le Mauvais Moine]

Originally posted by hyfe


Newscans ought to have two different detail levels (giving them different names to avoid confusion might be a good idea),
If newsieing somebody from overview page, you get full co-ords, along with links for doing UNIT/PDS scan on all co-ords shown on the newsie

If newsieing somebody from galaxy screen, all co-ords are removed from the news-scans, and no scan links are shown

I may have not understood that completely, but does this not make it damn hard to gather evidence to prove a suspect to be a cheat ?

On a sidenote: the last quest where you are supposed to launch on a top 10 planet or so should be removed then

[hyfe]

Originally posted by Le Mauvais Moine
[b]I may have not understood that completely, but does this not make it damn hard to gather evidence to prove a suspect to be a cheat ?[b]

I refuse to have PA's incompetence at gathering evidence as an argument against making the game as enjoyable as possible.

On a sidenote: the last quest where you are supposed to launch on a top 10 planet or so should be removed then

ohh..why?

[Le Mauvais Moine]

Originally posted by Cochese
Who's boasting? Did I ever say "I know everything about r10, and I 0wn0r, you sux0r phwoar!!!11122223444"? No, not even remotely close.

If you read between the lines, which was the ENTIRE point of my post, you'd know almost exactly what was going to change for r10, without me having to actually say it.

Marvelous example of missing the point and overreacting, Chax.

I can understand Chax reaction though, there's been many many statements by people "in the know" telling us r10 will so much rock without really revealing anything.

At some point you then get very sensitive and suspicious ..

Why anyhow is it such a big deal to at least explain about the basic concepts, how the address, within the new rules, the major problems which PA is suffering from right now. Imho these problems being:

1) Multiing/account sharing (flak fleets, farms, scan planets)
2) Power blocking
3) Lack of players

I think some general information just about the concepts will be much appreciated - information on *features* as "engineers" is nice, too - but less interesting (at least for me).

[Le Mauvais Moine]

Originally posted by hyfe


ohh..why?

By this top 10 planets having loads of incs on their overview screen have access to a lot of detailed information which other planets don't

[Ultimate Newbie]

I've only skim-read this thread, but it occurs to me that attacking a Xandathrii would be quite annoying.

This is because you must actually launch at him before you can do a mil scan. If your fleet needs modification, you have to recall and do it again. not only does this highlight your co-ords to him for retal before you've even launched, it also alerts that plane that he will soon come under attack for real, and begin mustering def.

also, it would encourage the bashing of xans, as people will launch all their anti FI/CO units, scan, cba running the risk of def, and killing the Xan.

with other races, unit scans are sufficient and so arent overly affected by this. But it would still be nice to be able to mil scan a defender...

[Kåre Willoch]

Originally posted by Gerbie
One of the reasons why rounds get boring is that not much is happening. People attack, they scan. If there is defence, they make a calc and decide to pull or not. Defenders when online will not wait for him to land and run. There's almost no thrill in doing an attack nowadays, especially since there is not much of a war going on.

We need more battles actually taking place and more surprises. I'd like scans to give us less information. That will allow people to use more original strategies to make use of the element of surprise. If xans get better by the element of surprise, you can always decide to downgrade them even more.

-----------
agree to the problem, my solution would be to remove galstatus though, that way there would be A LOT MORE battles, and in my opinion more fun...scans should still be functioning I think.

[Gerbie]

I think that would work, so there will be more battles, but the way you propose will mean more people will get bashed. That's not the kind of battles I desire. I want more almost equal battles taking place.

[MAdnRisKy]

just to make it simple then (idea isn't new btw)

once mil scans are reached it automatically upgrades the unit scan to also detect cloaked units.

they get the advantage of remaining cloaked unitl mil scans are out, you don't lose the only mil scan your own relevancy and yet xan are not uber powerful


*dusts hands and walks away another problem solved