about Zik stealing

[at0mic.c0w]

these are the reports i gathered so far:

            | poofed/caped | arm |   res   |
------------+--------------+-----+---------+
Rogue       |      8       | 640 | 128000  | (1)
Black Widow |     23       | 690 | 172500  | 
------------+--------------+-----+---------+
Rogue       |      8       | 640 | 128000  | (2) 
Demeter     |     10       | 450 | 120000  |
Chimera     |      1       |  35 |   7000  |
Centaur     |      4       | 100 |  24000  |
Apod        |      6       |  60 |  22200  |
total cap   |      -       | 645 | 173200  |
------------+--------------+-----+---------+ 
Rogue       |      4       | 320 |  64000  | (3)
Chimera     |      1       |  35 |   7000  |
Centaur     |      9       | 225 |  54000  |
Apod        |      9       |  90 |  33300  |
total cap   |      -       | 350 |  94300  |
------------+--------------+-----+---------+
Rogue       |      3       | 240 |  48000  | (4)
Chimera     |      2       |  70 |  14000  |
Centaur     |      6       | 150 |  36000  |
Apod        |      8       |  80 |  29600  |
total cap   |      -       | 300 |  79600  |
------------+--------------+-----+---------+

all 4 reports do not speak AGAINST poofing by arm and rounding down the number of poofed ships.

however:

cap res/poofed res =

(1) 1.35
(2) 1.35
(3) 1.47
(4) 1.65

this seems to be relatively constant as well but it would mean that the caping formula is a lot more complex then in the previous rounds (which quite frankly i don't believe). the values for (3), (4) are a bit higher but this could be due to rounding down of poofing ships. adding 1 poofed rogue lowers the cap/poof ratio under 1.35 again.
the problem is that i have only reports involving rogues so the constant res-cap/poof rate doesn't mean too much. maybe some other zik player could show us his reports involving thieves or marauders.

[hyfe]

Normal Armor capping
Well..Rogues have 80 armor: so to prove armor capping wrong: you need to do more than 80 extra damage... All the reports have between 0-80 damage in difference

So this would be my favorite theses

Normal Resource capping
A rogue costs 16000 resources. The difference in resource cost is way beyond this. So this is false; something has been done about capping

1.1 Multiplier Resource capping
172500 - 140800 > 15000
So the first result is too good to be explained away with a 1.1 multiplier and rounding

1.1 Multiplier Armor capping
640 * 1.1 > 690 .. so if this was true you actually would have lost one ship less at the first battle.

All in all:
Armor capping fit


Could any ziks post their results? or links to a pilkara report(without co-ords ofc) so that somebody here could do the boring work

[Edit: removed some embarrassing mistakes. /me is off to shoot himself]

[black-eyed boy]

Part I

Looking at examples you presented you two sound confusing, imho the formula there is VERY simple

Stealing is by armour with formula being "the armour of all ships stolen / the armour of stealer taking away numbers after the comma". (If it's 8.2 you lose 8 rogues, if it's 8.95 you lose 8 rogues aswell).

The four examples you presented would be calculated:

1. 690/80 = 8.625 ---> 8 rogues lost
2. 645/80 = 8.062 ---> 8
3. 350/80 = 4.375 ---> 4
4. 300/80 = 3.750 ---> 3




Part II

However, yesterday I've capped 10 pods and lost 3 marauders. Either the formula is different for marauders (different for every stealing ship) which would be funny, or it's different AGAINST some ships. (Because according to above formula 2 maras should have been lost, but clearly losing only 2 marauders for 10 pods would lead to 234% stealing efficiency which wouldnt be too right).

Before that I capped 80 arrowheads and 10 vultures for the loss of 18 maras and 17 thieves. That's 1140 armour capped for the loss of 1060

[hyfe]

Originally posted by black-eyed boy
Part I

Looking at examples you presented you two sound confusing, imho the formula there is VERY simple

I was quite tired when i wrote my post

The thing is: (as you probably know): we've had two rounds with capping by resources now, before that it was armor (although it was claimed it was resource countless of times by paHQ), this round we have prince's famous 0.1 multiplier, and the 'improved' stealing formula

Stealing is by armour with formula being "the armour of all ships stolen / the armour of stealer taking away numbers after the comma". (If it's 8.2 you lose 8 rogues, if it's 8.95 you lose 8 rogues aswell).

Commonly reffered to as 'stealing by armor' as i said was the only one which fitted

However, yesterday I've capped 10 pods and lost 3 marauders. Either the formula is different for marauders (different for every stealing ship) which would be funny, or it's different AGAINST some ships. (Because according to above formula 2 maras should have been lost, but clearly losing only 2 marauders for 10 pods would lead to 234% stealing efficiency which wouldnt be too right).

Might be a bug in either astropod or marauder armor though it has happen before, alot...

Before that I capped 80 arrowheads and 10 vultures for the loss of 18 maras and 17 thieves. That's 1140 armour capped for the loss of 1060

1130 armor, not 1140 armor surely?
Still that makes a difference of 70.. which can't be explained away by rounding (39+19=58 is what could max have been explained away)

So.. we have 1 battle where we loose too much, and 1 where we loose to little.. So either we have 1 ****ed up set of stats, or we it isn't by resources this round :-)

[at0mic.c0w]

Originally posted by black-eyed boy
Looking at examples you presented you two sound confusing, imho the formula there is VERY simple

Stealing is by armour with formula being "the armour of all ships stolen / the armour of stealer taking away numbers after the comma". (If it's 8.2 you lose 8 rogues, if it's 8.95 you lose 8 rogues aswell).

that's what i though too BUT the above is no proof for stealing by armour. the creator's official stance on this however is that ships poof by resoures so if that was in fact true the formula WOULD be quite complicated.

Originally posted by black-eyed boy
However, yesterday I've capped 10 pods and lost 3 marauders. Either the formula is different for marauders (different for every stealing ship) which would be funny, or it's different AGAINST some ships. (Because according to above formula 2 maras should have been lost, but clearly losing only 2 marauders for 10 pods would lead to 234% stealing efficiency which wouldnt be too right).

Before that I capped 80 arrowheads and 10 vultures for the loss of 18 maras and 17 thieves. That's 1140 armour capped for the loss of 1060

were u attacking/defending alone or with another zik ?!?

[hyfe]

this thread reminds of me of the good ol' times

[black-eyed boy]

Originally posted by at0mic.c0w
were u attacking/defending alone or with another zik ?!?

Dunno which combat (where I've stolen 10 pods or arrowheads/vultures) you are referring to, the latter is gone from my combat reports screen as it was a while ago, another one is here - http://www.pilkara.com/parsers.php?scanid=1436160401.

I'm sure about the loss of 17 thieves / 18 marauders for 80 arrowheads / 10 vultures. It was a battle at my place and all attackers ships were frozen and I only had stealers firing, so no ships were "killed" in combat only stolen.

[at0mic.c0w]

<Prince> its resources
<Prince> and no
<at0mic_c0w> have you seen the code ?
<Prince> no matter how many test u all do
<Prince> you'll never work it out
<at0mic_c0w> so this is some sort of 'big secret' ?
<at0mic_c0w> or meant to be one at lest
<at0mic_c0w> ?
<Prince> yes its a secret

still i'd like u all to add any reports you have below. ty

[Atamur]

It's hard to work anything out from reports with so few rogues. Since we don't know for sure if rounding is done to the closest integer, always up, or always down, the error magin on these numbers is +/- 1 rogue.

[Chax]

It seems my paranoid conspiracy theories are true!

What's next, secret ship stats for r10?
bcalcs not working til late in the round?
Only the large alliances being able to gather enough data to make a calc?

That'd really be balanced wouldn't it?

Might as well quit this game

[Sun_Tzu]

heh, secret ships...never liked 'em personally, but I've seen games where such things exist, somehow the creator seemed to think it was fun :P

[Ultimate Newbie]

i dont believe that Prince said that.

[Atamur]

Originally posted by Ultimate Newbie
i dont believe that Prince said that.

public stats aren't much use if the formulae are secret.

[The_Fish]

No wonder there aint many ziks around this round when the creators dont even give the stealing formula. I reckon they ****ed it up and wont admit it by saying its a secret.

[Chax]

Originally posted by The_Fish
No wonder there aint many ziks around this round when the creators dont even give the stealing formula. I reckon they ****ed it up and wont admit it by saying its a secret.

If they had told the formula I might have played Zikonian. I asked and asked and asked again and newver got a reply. So I chose cath instead.

[black-eyed boy]

I just capped 8 clippers for the loss of zero rogues. I love PA, I love being zik

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally posted by black-eyed boy
I just capped 8 clippers for the loss of zero rogues. I love PA, I love being zik

was that because of the production page?

[black-eyed boy]

Originally posted by Ultimate Newbie
was that because of the production page?

What do you mean, ships coming out of production that tick?

The battle report where I have stolen those clippers contains 3 nice bugs involving rogues...

1. I capped 8 clippers. I only could have done it with rogues and I didnt lose a single rogue. Cool.

2. There were 3 different De in defence - 25 pegs, 100 clippers and 50 rogues. 5 pegs and 24 clippers were blocked by attacking roaches, not a single rogue was blocked. Cool.

3. It takes 3.7 rogues to steal a clipper. 50 rogues should have stolen 13 of them.


Though if we consider that some rogues actually were blocked (just it wasnt displayed in appropriate column in battle report) it turns 2nd and 3rd bug into one - in a battle report screen, not the battle itself.

[Sun_Tzu]

/me start to think there's something seriously fecked up in PA and the stats this round :/

[black-eyed boy]

Originally posted by Sun_Tzu
/me start to think there's something seriously fecked up in PA and the stats this round :/

Yes. And this is the real reason why they say the stealing formula is secret.

[black-eyed boy]

Oh and I havent gotten any salvage at all from 2 battles today, despite losing 26 fighters in one and 100 COs in another. Both defending ofcourse

[at0mic.c0w]

Originally posted by black-eyed boy
Oh and I havent gotten any salvage at all from 2 battles today, despite losing 26 fighters in one and 100 COs in another. Both defending ofcourse

in return i got 60k slavage for poofed ships today...

[black-eyed boy]

Originally posted by at0mic.c0w
in return i got 60k slavage for poofed ships today...

I've got 70k

But still, if I dont get salvage one more time I'm mailing PA crew. I wonder what they might say on the subject.

[storeslem]

Battle Reports For Ya!


Attackers Defenders Yours
Units Total Lost Block Total Lost Block Total Lost Block Cap
Scarab 49 0 0 16 16 11 49 0 0 16
Roach 25 0 0 15 15 9 25 0 0 15
Marauder 74 11 2 0 0 0 74 11 2 0
Astro Pod 31 0 1 0 0 0 31 0 1 0
Total 179 11 3 31 31 20 179 11 3 31



Attackers Defenders Yours
Units Total Lost Block Total Lost Block Total Lost Block Cap
Harpy 0 0 0 359 112 0 0 0 0 42
Centaur 10 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Chimera 26 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Vsharrak Fighter 50 50 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Culdassa Arrowhead 45 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Vulture 25 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Brig 38 1 0 0 0 0 38 1 0 0
Thief 102 13 0 0 0 0 102 13 0 0
Cutter 34 0 0 0 0 0 34 0 0 0
Astro Pod 54 0 0 8 8 0 26 0 0 0
Total 384 67 0 367 120 0 200 14 0 42


Attackers Defenders Yours
Units Total Lost Block Total Lost Block Total Lost Block Cap
Scarab 0 0 0 81 41 0 0 0 0 26
Roach 0 0 0 46 19 0 0 0 0 12
Culdassa Arrowhead 146 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Vulture 15 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Marauder 100 13 19 0 0 0 100 13 19 0
Astro Pod 31 0 10 0 0 0 31 0 10 0
Total 292 13 29 127 60 0 131 13 29 38


Attackers Defenders Yours
Units Total Lost Block Total Lost Block Total Lost Block Cap
Scarab 26 0 0 40 24 10 26 0 0 23
Roach 12 0 0 27 12 0 12 0 0 13
Marauder 87 13 13 0 0 0 87 13 13 0
Astro Pod 31 0 4 0 0 0 31 0 4 0
Total 156 13 17 67 36 10 156 13 17 36


Attackers Defenders Yours
Units Total Lost Block Total Lost Block Total Lost Block Cap
Harpy 0 0 0 166 32 0 0 0 0 0
Phoenix 0 0 0 200 22 0 0 0 0 21
Gryphon 0 0 0 28 4 0 0 0 0 4
Chimera 2 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0
Brig 12 2 0 0 0 0 12 2 0 0
Thief 30 13 0 0 0 0 30 13 0 0
Cutter 38 5 0 0 0 0 38 5 0 0
Marauder 35 16 0 0 0 0 35 16 0 0
Astro Pod 23 9 0 20 18 0 23 9 0 19
Total 140 45 0 414 76 0 140 45 0 44


Attackers Defenders Yours
Units Total Lost Block Total Lost Block Total Lost Block Cap
Harpy 0 0 0 35 35 0 0 0 0 0
Phoenix 0 0 0 32 17 0 0 0 0 17
Gryphon 0 0 0 44 24 0 0 0 0 24
Chimera 2 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0
Brig 12 3 0 0 0 0 12 3 0 0
Thief 30 17 0 0 0 0 30 17 0 0
Cutter 38 1 0 0 0 0 38 1 0 0
Marauder 35 9 0 0 0 0 35 9 0 0
Astro Pod 23 4 0 0 0 0 23 4 0 0
PDS
Mesonic Cutter 86 0
Tachyon Beamer 7 1
Total 140 34 0 204 77 0 140 34 0 41


Attackers Defenders Yours
Units Total Lost Block Total Lost Block Total Lost Block Cap
Chimera 3 0 0 0 0 0 3 0 0 0
Vsharrak Fighter 0 0 0 200 20 0 0 0 0 1
Daeraith Pulsar 0 0 0 5 2 0 0 0 0 0
Lyvidian Sentinel 0 0 0 294 34 0 0 0 0 6
Brig 16 12 0 0 0 0 16 12 0 0
Thief 40 30 0 0 0 0 40 30 0 0
Cutter 37 0 0 0 0 0 37 0 0 0
Marauder 20 5 0 0 0 0 20 5 0 0
Astro Pod 22 0 0 14 12 0 22 0 0 13
PDS
Mesonic Cutter 2 0
Total 138 47 0 515 68 0 138 47 0 20


Attackers Defenders Yours
Units Total Lost Block Total Lost Block Total Lost Block Cap
Harpy 0 0 0 134 32 0 0 0 0 0
Phoenix 21 5 0 178 19 0 21 5 0 17
Gryphon 4 0 0 24 1 0 4 0 0 1
Chimera 2 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0
Brig 10 1 0 0 0 0 10 1 0 0
Thief 17 2 0 0 0 0 17 2 0 0
Cutter 33 4 0 0 0 0 33 4 0 0
Marauder 19 5 0 0 0 0 19 5 0 0
Astro Pod 33 15 0 2 0 0 33 15 0 0
Total 139 32 0 338 52 0 139 32 0 18


Attackers Defenders Yours
Units Total Lost Block Total Lost Block Total Lost Block Cap
Harpy 0 0 0 12 12 0 0 0 0 0
Phoenix 17 3 0 21 17 0 17 3 0 14
Gryphon 24 7 0 20 14 0 24 7 0 13
Chimera 2 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0
Brig 9 0 0 0 0 0 9 0 0 0
Thief 13 5 0 0 0 0 13 5 0 0
Cutter 37 0 0 0 0 0 37 0 0 0
Marauder 26 6 0 0 0 0 26 6 0 0
Astro Pod 19 3 0 0 0 0 19 3 0 0
PDS
Mesonic Cutter 86 4
Tachyon Beamer 6 2
Total 147 24 0 145 49 0 147 24 0 27


Attackers Defenders Yours
Units Total Lost Block Total Lost Block Total Lost Block Cap
Harpy 0 0 0 102 25 0 0 0 0 0
Phoenix 33 6 0 159 16 0 33 6 0 12
Gryphon 5 0 0 23 2 0 5 0 0 2
Chimera 2 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0
Brig 9 0 0 0 0 0 9 0 0 0
Thief 15 3 0 0 0 0 15 3 0 0
Cutter 29 7 0 0 0 0 29 7 0 0
Marauder 14 3 0 0 0 0 14 3 0 0
Astro Pod 18 11 0 2 0 0 18 11 0 0
Total 125 30 0 286 43 0 125 30 0 14

notice how I sometimes steal more ships than I kill, and other times I kill more than I steal, even with only stealers targetting the ship in question.

these reports are in a more or less random order, bc the combatreports page messed them all up.

[at0mic.c0w]

thats gonna take while to look thru...

[storeslem]

yep, and here is another one, older.

Attackers Defenders Yours
Units Total Lost Block Total Lost Block Total Lost Block Cap
Harpy 0 0 0 310 2 0 0 0 0 0
Chimera 0 0 0 2 0 0 2 0 0 0
Spider 0 0 0 101 0 0 0 0 0 0
Beetle 0 0 0 401 4 0 0 0 0 0
Daeraith Pulsar 0 0 0 150 2 0 0 0 0 0
Lyvidian Sentinel 0 0 0 100 0 0 0 0 0 0
Corsair 331 247 331 947 4 0 273 1 0 2
Cutlass 315 130 315 540 4 0 0 0 0 13
Brig 0 0 0 61 0 0 61 0 0 0
Thief 0 0 0 26 1 0 26 1 0 0
Cutter 30 23 0 26 0 0 26 0 0 1
Marauder 0 0 0 6 0 0 6 0 0 0
Astro Pod 45 45 0 39 0 0 39 0 0 0
Total 721 445 646 2709 17 0 433 2 0 16

lost 1 thief capped 16 shippies.

[tokath]

heres of couple of breports

http://www.pilkara.com/parsers.php?scanid=1721000545

rogues capping pegs and dems under armor

now explain this one to me
http://www.pilkara.com/parsers.php?scanid=366143583

its neither armor or resource based as far as i can tell

[hyfe]

hmm.. the solutions i can think of (first ones most likely, last ones least likely):[edit: referring to the last link posted]
1.Stealing and poofing is done in separate calculations with different random elements. And you were damn unlucky on both....
2.The secret capping formula is screwed up beyond reason; and this is why it is secret.
3.Defenders target FR
4.You made that battle report up solely to make fun of us discussing it.
5.Marauders are still DE

Prince? You're going for solution #4 of these or?

[Wombat]

No cutters where shot, which leaves out the defenders shooting FR opption.

the stealing formula looks completely borked to me. It fluctuates far too randomly, which can't be explained by any simple formula. Somebody has played with it, and not accounted for all the variables. The current logic is "don't tell em, and they won't work out how to abuse all the huge loopholes".

I guess they learnt from rnd 4 anyway, besides changing it now would be a mid round stats change :/

[hyfe]

Originally posted by Wombat
No cutters where shot, which leaves out the defenders shooting FR opption.

That might have been chance

[Atamur]

Originally posted by hyfe
hmm.. the solutions i can think of (first ones most likely, last ones least likely):[edit: referring to the last link posted]
1.Stealing and poofing is done in separate calculations with different random elements. And you were damn unlucky on both....
2.The secret capping formula is screwed up beyond reason; and this is why it is secret.
3.Defenders target FR
4.You made that battle report up solely to make fun of us discussing it.
5.Marauders are still DE

Prince? You're going for solution #4 of these or?

There's another possibility. There may be an amount of "free" resources per battle that ziks can capture without poofing. Say, first n% of your score's worth of ships per tick of battle are captured without expending any steal ships. that would explain some of the reports.

-- Atamur

[hyfe]

Atamur: what about this one? It defies logic, and losses are too high, not too low.

Originally posted by tokath

http://www.pilkara.com/parsers.php?scanid=366143583

[hAl]

Originally posted by hyfe
Atamur: what about this one? It defies logic, and losses are too high, not too low.

6 bw's and 30 pods for 17 marauders.

Resources:
42 + 111 exchanged for 136
Seem fair enough.

Only amusing is the 29 pods lost where you gain 30 in stealing.

hAl

[Wombat]

hrhr, seems like we missed the pods

all of us :/

but yes that 29 bit is odd

[hyfe]

Oi. some of us are quite stupid yes

[dabult]

Could somebody summarise in english please..i dont get it whether or not Zik is good/worse/better/shiet or wtf ever :\


(me=zik, so hints or what to look for would help ta)